I guess "Grexit" especially with "Brexit" being there before doesn't really give a very clear picture.
But as Ether_Snake said, this isn't some big final moment for the EU or the Eurozone, it does sell more papers to portray it as such though.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
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But as Ether_Snake said, this isn't some big final moment for the EU or the Eurozone, it does sell more papers to portray it as such though.
No.
What are the expected next steps then? Are we waiting for on official "Yes, master" or "Fuck you" statement from the Greek government?
Ether_Snake
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The media reports that Tsipras will have to sack a bunch of MPs monday who would not sign this plan is a bit silly, except if Tsipras decides to basically destroy Syriza so that there is nothing left ahead for the elections, meaning the country would be mired in political bickering since there would most likely be no majority or even a strong coalition.
I can imagine him not getting the bill to be voted on, or letting everyone vote on it and then calling elections, but to outright force his party vote yes is doubtful.
I can imagine him not getting the bill to be voted on, or letting everyone vote on it and then calling elections, but to outright force his party vote yes is doubtful.
jakonovski
Member
Thomas Piketty is spitting fire: Germany is in fact the textbook example of a nation that does not repay its debts.
http://thewire.in/2015/07/08/thomas...-its-debts-it-has-no-right-to-lecture-greece/
http://thewire.in/2015/07/08/thomas...-its-debts-it-has-no-right-to-lecture-greece/
If you look at the opinions of the German public (70% approve of Schäuble's work, a healthy majority opposes a third bailout program), it's not really surprising. And while the SPD is ideologically closer to Syriza than the CDU/CSU, the SPD also draws votes more heavily from lower and low income households, not exactly folks who are thrilled to pump billions of taxpayer €s into Greece - for a third time. Thus there's nothing to win in it for the SPD domestically (nor is it sensible to risk the integrity of the German govt in these crucial times for Europe, imho).
The Left - even closer ideologically to Syriza but represents lower and low income households even more so than the SPD - is keeping a similarly low profile domestically for that reason. The Greens on the other hand draw a majority of their votes from middle and higher income households, along with the FDP they actually have the richest voters of all parties, hence it's also not surprising they're the most vocal in support of Greece and the Greek govt.
http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschl...P-und-Gruene-haben-die-reichsten-Waehler.html
Back to the Eurosummit with all Eurozone leaders for further negotiations.
No idea.
Negotiator
Member
If Schäuble causes a EU disintegration, then they'll ask for his head on a plate and he will be judged as a financial criminal/terrorist/blackmailer.
Sorry, but that's nonsense.
It's well known that ownership occupancy is pretty high in Greece (due to cultural reasons), while on the other hand Germans prefer renting houses.
Most of those houses were built with the cheap drachma and now they seem "expensive" thanks to euroization (prices have doubled/tripled).
Just because someone has his own house (i.e. an unemployed person in Greece), it doesn't mean that he's "rich". Also, just because someone (i.e. a corporate executive in Germany) rents a house, it doesn't mean that he's "poor".
GDP/per capita income is a more objective way to deem who's poor and who's rich.
You also have to understand that Greece has no social safety net. If you're unemployed in Germany, then the state will give you a house. If you're unemployed in Greece, then you're fucked, unless you're lucky enough to have your own house and even in that case, you're still semi-fucked thanks to ENFIA.
If you don't delve into the Greek culture, then you won't understand why Greeks have a high ownership occupancy. It's the same thing with the Protestant logic behind austerity. See what I'm saying? Clash of cultures.
So, what do you want Greece to do? To sell their own houses and live on the streets? I wouldn't be surprised if Schäuble proposed that...
There will likely be a small generic statement at the end of the night signalling the directions in which things are heading to relax the stock exchanges tomorrow morning.
Theonik
Member
I should mention with respects to the sustainability of the Greek pension system. Before the crisis, there was supposed to be enough money in those funds to keep the pension system going. In 2012, the Greek government in an effort to reduce their debt, had the pension funds, invest their money in Greek bonds, which it later haircut by 78% this was as part of the PSI. At the same time, bankers and other networked private bond holders were warned and allowed to sell their bonds back to the bank of Greece before that happened. The same happened to Greek Universities, hospitals, and other funds that held large amounts of money that they used to run vital infrastructure. As a result, the revenue burden from pensions rose exponentially for the state since now they had to fill the deficit from the pension funds using tax revenues, they then begun reducing the pensions again.
The pension funds were always a subject of much controversy though. They are administered by the government which decides how the money is invested. In the past there were examples where the government took money from pensioners by having them buy Greek bonds to 'fund' expensive construction projects to clients of the administrators, or executives investing the pension money in their own affiliated enterprises.
This is of course part of the problem rampant corruption and significant windows for administrations to do what they like. In the end of the day however it is the pensioners who worked all their life that were punished by having their life plans destroyed. Workers in Greece also don't get to choose whether they want to contribute to the fund. So it ends up being a massive fuck you to every Greek that worked hard in their lives all while foreign media call them lazy or that they should just deal with it.
The pension funds were always a subject of much controversy though. They are administered by the government which decides how the money is invested. In the past there were examples where the government took money from pensioners by having them buy Greek bonds to 'fund' expensive construction projects to clients of the administrators, or executives investing the pension money in their own affiliated enterprises.
This is of course part of the problem rampant corruption and significant windows for administrations to do what they like. In the end of the day however it is the pensioners who worked all their life that were punished by having their life plans destroyed. Workers in Greece also don't get to choose whether they want to contribute to the fund. So it ends up being a massive fuck you to every Greek that worked hard in their lives all while foreign media call them lazy or that they should just deal with it.
nature boy
Member
Tsipras is too popular to not be a part of any new government. There might be changes, but he has the support of almost all the opposition.
Those 50 billion are collateral precisely because there's no trust.
Greece from a geopolitical perspective is too important to just kick out - even if that was legally easy to do. Even if Greece leaves the EZ, there will be some kind of support.
US has the same issue with social security funds being used to buy treasury bonds for the general budget
In theory it makes sense if you don't plan on ever defaulting on sovereign debt, but the problem is that if you do need to replenish the fund there is no political will to do so and opportunists label it as some kind of bailout
My words exactly!
Member
Yep. No way around this. "Narrative" my ass.
I said before that if shit hits the fan this will not end well for him. It's not like the NSA has dirt on this guy... is it...
Lol. If the coup d etat they are trying to impose now works, you can be sure that their old partners/accomplices ND/PASOK/Potami will be more than happy to cooperate. They had such a great relationship with Siemens/Rheinmetal/Thiessenkrup etc. back in the day... Billions of in damages for the greek state.
jakonovski
Member
Greece has 25% less GDP compared to last time around. They will not be able to pay back this latest bailout, let alone any existing debt. The 50 billion "collateral" is just unabashed looting for the benefit of special interests. The eurogroup is breaking Greece's remaining windows and attempting to carry out TVs.
Devil's advocate
Member
Actually the state will pay your rent up to a certain amount. And that's only if you fulfill certain criteria to be considered "in need".
Theonik
Member
Yes, in theory the money should be invested to guard them against inflation. But the problem in this case is using it with the intention of not paying it back. Otherwise it is normal to use bonds because they are considered a 'safe' investment.
Like I said, either a push towards grexit or a last attempt at looting Greek assets and reducing their exposure in preparation for a Grexit.
There's no such thing, Greece should have spent the money did they not have and cooked the books to join the Euro, anyway all that is history. I just hope the creditors will just forgive half of the Greek debt so the country can get back on its feet again.
Negotiator
Member
Yeah, that's what I meant. Syriza wants to implement subsidized housing and couple of other social safety net measures (subsidized food/electricity), but they lack the funds (...)
Nikodemos
Member
Mayhap the assorted corpse-eaters of the Eurogroup got the drop on Tsipras because he's fundamentally a Europhile.
If a hardline Eurosceptic party got the majority (and a hardline Eurosceptic ended up as PM) you'd bet preparations for the New Drachma would've started the next day, and the Troika would've been much more accepting of whatever propositions such a cabinet would've put forward (particularly because they would've known their shitty economic blackmail would not have flown).
If a hardline Eurosceptic party got the majority (and a hardline Eurosceptic ended up as PM) you'd bet preparations for the New Drachma would've started the next day, and the Troika would've been much more accepting of whatever propositions such a cabinet would've put forward (particularly because they would've known their shitty economic blackmail would not have flown).
Theonik
Member
A lot of these would be very cheap to implement without privatisations since the national grid is already very profitable and the Greek government followed by the Greek Orthodox Church are the two largest owners of land in Greece. Noting that the former lost tons of land to some shady dealings a few years back. Many of these assets are just sitting there and this would be pretty good to compensate for the budget cuts.
Machspeed007
Member
Ether_Snake
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What Draghi probably wants to hear at this point is Greece saying they'll help until they can transition to the Drachma somehow. No one can seriously believe that some deal will be worked out anymore, so it's all about how to proceed with Grexit.
D
Deleted member 231381
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Draghi has actually been great through-out this, easily the most reliable and on-the-ball person. I've heard he's fought a lot behind the scenes to keep the ELA going. I've gained a lot of respect for him.
That's 3 out of 19. Many press outlets made it sound like a 50/50 split.
edit: 4 with Greece, of course.
Also the only one not using his own money.
Who's extreme right now, if not Germans?
Ether_Snake
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What exactly has Germany done? If you didn't receive the memo, pretty much all are rejecting a third bail out except France, Italy and Mr I love inflation and printing billions and billions of Euros Mario. Who do you think benefits the most from Mario's printer? Hopefully he would be voted out soon too.
Everybody else's
Machspeed007
Member
yeah, except for France and Italy, all Europe is extreme right, neoliberal junta, economic terrorists, etc.
Negotiator
Member
https://twitter.com/TheStalwart/status/620312527092604928
The #1 trending topic in Spain? #ThisIsACoup HT: @chrishanretty
Looks like Spain is waking up... good for them.
The #1 trending topic in Spain? #ThisIsACoup HT: @chrishanretty
Looks like Spain is waking up... good for them.
Do you know what Germans did in the 1950s when they had a debt worth 200% of their GDP? Tax the rich and use inflation. Forget econ 101, start with history.
Theonik
Member
Don't worry your Macbooks will drop in price again soon. No need to be pissy about matters you don't really understand in the meantime.
jakonovski
Member
Let's just face it, this latest eurogroup proposal is completely loony tunes and basically useless. It's only used as a tool of humiliation because, well, apparently negative emotions is what nation states trade in these days.
Ether_Snake
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Said it before, all Germany will have accomplished is push Spain and potentially Italy/Portugal(likely not)/Ireland(later) to put in power someone who will be defending them against the Troika. They won't think "oh no if we elect Podemos we will be kicked out, let's vote for Rajoy and Co. again!".
Then why not keep the money to themselves then?
I'm on a shitty Samsung from 2011 thank you
.Lets talk about the Orthodox Church, how much asset do they own and are they paying their taxes?
Also i think i have mentioned multiple times that the half of the debt should be forgiven or if not all.
And yet 16/19 countries seem to think it should be the basis of negotiations, probably demanding even more if it comes to it.
Theonik
Member
I was talking about the Draghi comment.I'm on a shitty Samsung from 2011 thank you
Lets talk about the Orthodox Church, how much asset do they own and are they paying their taxes?
Also i think i have mentioned multiple times that the half of the debt should be forgiven or if not all.
Negotiator
Member
You make it sound like Mr. Draghi is trying to turn the Euro into the Italian lira (1 EUR = 2000 liras)... that's a hyperbole and you know it. Inflationphobic much?
Even if the Euro dropped to 1 DM, Germany would still be fine export-wise.
jakonovski
Member
Yah, which is why I don't see a very bright future for the EU. Which in turn is kinda chilling once one realises it means one's own personal future too. Am I smart enough to rise to the surface if this shit starts spreading?
I have to admit that all of this has changed my opinion about Germany and Europe in general. And I was pretty much always the person defending Germany and Europe to my Greek relatives. After today, I don't know if there's much left to defend to be honest.
Whoever wins Eurovision gets to be King of Europe for a year.
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