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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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Nikodemos
Member
That's unfair. Extremely unfair, even.
Look, I virulently despise the pitiful assorted shitheads masquerading as Federal politicians, and hold little love for the average somnambulic German who only reads Der Bild, but the fact remains that in 1953 whatever was left of Germany was physically, technically incapable of paying anything anybody demanded as debts. Half of the country was experiencing the glory of hardcore Stalinism <spleurgh!> and the other half was still under full military occupation. Oh, and pretty much all of it was still a heap of ruins.
Fin minister paper is there to advise head of states. Not to decide.
I know it's his job and he has done logical things. What I'm saying is that he does not have to answer to a national electorate.
jakonovski
Member
Insert Game of Thrones spoiler here.
Gurgelhals
Member
The way I see it, it's only about who's going to take the blame for the inevitable grexit at this stage.
I do believe things are so convoluted now that we, non-insiders, should stop hypothesizing anything. Half of Greece is in utter panic and disappointment mode and is really not helpful to make scenarios. Or at least I don't think it is.
You should take a look at the gdp loss before he came in.
Nikodemos
Member
Which is pretty much bullshit. Greece is just as capable of paying today what it ows as it was half a year ago (hint, hint).
Coriolanus
Banned
You really should stop commenting on things you know so very little about, mate.
The way i see it, all the countries involved have been shitheads, from the Netherlands, through Germany all the way to Greece. Bunch of little children arguing of stuff that should make Europe stronger.
I hope Greece doesn't accept this form of extortion.
A debt haircut and/or restructuring seems completely necessary although it would be silly to offer such a thing without trustworthy confirmation that the cultural and structural issues that allowed such an ineffective and overweight public sector, corruption and tax negligence to happen in the first place. It seems completely reasonable for the Eurogroup to ask for this.
Whatever the opposite of austerity is, I am having a hard time understanding how pouring money into an ineffective system does anything by itself. I believe that growth measures need some sort of functioning basis. I think there is consensus that it didn't work particular well in the case of the German reunification.
Whatever the opposite of austerity is, I am having a hard time understanding how pouring money into an ineffective system does anything by itself. I believe that growth measures need some sort of functioning basis. I think there is consensus that it didn't work particular well in the case of the German reunification.
Disclaimer: I am german
The economy? Kinda odd that you are worried about inflation when Europe is experiencing deflation (or have they finally gotten out of that?). We had a lot of inflation doomsayers predicting hyperinflation in America due to quantitative easing and what not. Guess what? They were all wrong.
I think that's possible. Like a grexit hot potato, except everyone will lose.
maniac-kun
Member
Just want to state here that I didnt vote for any of the clowns that are currently in charge of Germany. Sorry guys.
I'm going to comment whether you like it or not and hopefully i can learn a thing or two from my fellow posters here. I
Maybe those who have to answer to the electorate should do a better job at explaining what's EU and what's the monetary union and how it serves the national interest in the end instead of trying to have this shit throwing contest as support for elections. Because, if it doesn't serve the national interest, why are they in this union?
Ether_Snake
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Not any more than the Federal Reserve in the US, thankfully. If a central bank did, it wouldn't be much of a central bank and it would take horrible decisions all the time.
That's just wishful thinking on some people's part.
ClosingADoor
Member
I think we crossed that point a few days ago. By now it is just a couple of people seemingly screaming and talking nonsense without listening to anyone else.
This whole damn circus is going to cost the Europe much more if this continues. The world is watching and realizing nobody here has a clue how to run this union.
jakonovski
Member
An nescis, mi fili, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur.
Nikodemos
Member
Not least because no single guy/gal in the whole accursed heap has a "The Buck Stops Here" sign on his/her desk. It's all design by committee. And we all know how well the platypus turned out...
hydrophilic attack
Member
Tsipras and Varoufakis do deserve some criticism. Specifically, it was incredibly naive and stupid of them to not start building the infrastructure for a parallel currency and Grexit. As it stands, they are in a very bad bargaining position, which is likely why Germany et al. are smelling blood.
I think first you need a political union and the rest follows naturally no? With the EU it's the other way around which will continue to course problems.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
"What are you playing at, Germany?"
Tsipras is to blame for not having a damn plan A. Not even talking about plan B or something. If you want to play tough, you prepare. So, he has a good part of guilt.
Now, what's happening here today, makes him look just like a naughty boy that was caught by the local mob kicking the ball on their territory and they want to hang the little boy for that. And the godfather is just grotesque in this whole picture.
Tsipras should reject the deal, resign, call elections and let the Greek electorate device his fate for being unprepared.
Now, what's happening here today, makes him look just like a naughty boy that was caught by the local mob kicking the ball on their territory and they want to hang the little boy for that. And the godfather is just grotesque in this whole picture.
Tsipras should reject the deal, resign, call elections and let the Greek electorate device his fate for being unprepared.
Ether_Snake
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It says "What is Germany playing at?" basically, what's their end game in this.
Varoufakis for PM.
Ah right. Yeah, that makes sense.
vinnygambini
Why are strippers at the U.N. bad when they're great at strip clubs???
Coriolanus
Banned
The weirdest bit is that there was a plan in place, at least for Varoufakis, which we saw when he talked about issuing Cali-style IOU's right before being sacked. Thus it is more like he simply lacked the balls required to follow his previous FinMin to the endgame.
Indeed.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This is the way I feel. Varoufakis clearly had a plan, but I guess Tsipras just lost the guts to follow through.
Gurgelhals
Member
It really seems like this entire mess has spiraled so far out of control that it is now moving on its own - ever escalating according to its own internal logic - towards some inevitable disaster that none of the people involved could seriously have wanted.
It's really scary, looking at it this way. I mean, it's almost like the Cuban Missile Crisis or something, only this time there there are no politicians of the stature of a JFK or a Khrushchev around to say: "Wait a minute! Stop it! WTF are we doing here?!?". At least there's no threat of nuclear war involved this time; I guess that counts for something... /s
Theonik
Member
To ease the spirits in this thread here is the story from the Greek Finance minister I'd talked about a couple of days ago talking about football and the negotiations.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCGAhV6mDWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCGAhV6mDWs
"growing some balls" has huge economic consequences for the population.
Without a debt cut, leaving the euro is probably the next best option. But it's completely understandable that Greece is hesitant to do so. Once they are out, it'll be a long way back in, should they ever desire to do so.
15. Greece is on the same side as France, Italy and Cyprus; I hope.
That Israeli victory year will be really strange.
That would be the only logical plan, indeed, but I'm not sure about it. How can you not have discussions with the national bank and commercial banks on a emergency plan in case of Grexit? Even if you don't want it?
Coriolanus
Banned
¯\_(ツ
_/¯Well, i guess i can kinda see why the guy above would cockblock you from doing just that if he was legit hoping for a NAI win so he could justify his capitulation and tell his FinMin to make the deal, for the peoples, they have spoken.
No, that was the proposal they submitted. This is quite a bit beyond the beyond.
Ether_Snake
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And you can see how since Varoufakis has been out, everything's gone to shit, Greece is just in pleading mode. In the end they'll end up in the same spot, but having done nothing since the referendum to be ready to deal with the exit, which would have been quite different with Varoufakis.
Then again, when Tsipras calls for elections soon, Varoufakis will probably run for PM, if not in Syriza then in another party. He might not win now, but wait two years or so.
Yes, definitely huge short term consequences, perhaps medium term too.
I'm not saying it's an easy or obvious step, but with the loss of sovereignty that Europe is demanding, might be time to look for other painful options...
I doubt Greece is getting out of the Euro, none of the countries involve knows whats going to happen if we loose Greece, the absurd demands are going to be reduced in the next few days.
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