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[ElTorro]

Without a debt cut, leaving the euro is probably the next best option. But it's completely understandable that Greece is hesitant to do so. Once they are out, it'll be a long way back in, should they ever desire to do so.

In that case they should have never started with their referendum shenanigans. They should have tried to be professional over the last weeks and months by actually submitting real proposals on time, and not a few hours before meetings. That was the time when the traditional looking-for-a-shitty-compromise negotiations were still what everybody wanted to play.

Once the referendum was announced, everybody lost interest in reaching a deal. If you are willing to go that far, you should be willing to go through with it to the end. Trying to go
back to where we had been two weeks ago was just a silly move by Tsipras. And one that pisses on everything he has said about democracy during the referendum.

 

[KingSnake]

About "trust", it's interesting to see how PPE found a proper buzz word for their political marketing machine. It's a great word to use, they are very good.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I can't blame Tsipras for bottling it, the situation is so fucked up. He can't submit to what's on the table now, it is national humiliation.

He is about to.

I weep for Greece and it's utterly shit politicians. I fear for the future of Greek politics now that all of the mainstream parties have signed up to this "unity" deal. Only the extremists are left opposing it. Only the extremist parties are on the side of Greek people. SYRIZA and Tsipras are about to betray the Greek people.

 

[LoveCake]

At this point I think Greece should grow some balls, give the EU the middle finger and exit the Euro if that's the only way to regain independence.

I say this as someone who still holds a positive view of the EU (which is definitely not improving though).

Tsipras should have said that he couldn't go as far as the original proposal that was put to the vote, that instead he wanted a compromise, but instead he walked into a trap & then capitulated, if he had said "he couldn't go as far as the original proposal that was put to the vote" then the EU would have been the the ones forcing a GREXIT but now Tsipras is the fall guy.

If he tries to push through the measures Greeks will be after him, they trusted him to stand up for them & he hasn't (doesn't seem to be at the moment).

The EU is all about democracy apparently, well the people voted no.

 

[TheExecutive]

Not least because no single guy/gal in the whole accursed heap has a "The Buck Stops Here" sign on his/her desk. It's all design by committee. And we all know how well the platypus turned out...

The whole common currency thing when no one country has control over it is just a disaster waiting to happen. I understand why they started it and many people spent their lives building it but the generation that didn't grow up in post WWII Europe is going to be scratching their heads in the coming years.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

In that case they should have never started with their referendum shenanigans. They should have tried to be professional over the last weeks and months by actually submitting real proposals on time, and not a few hours before meetings. That was the time when the traditional looking-for-a-shitty-compromise negotiations were still what everybody wanted to play.

Once the referendum was announced, everybody lost interest in reaching a deal. If you are willing to go that far, you should be willing to go through with it to the end. Trying to go m
back to where we had been two weeks ago was just a silly move by Tsipras.

Yeah, I agree. I thought Varoufakis was simply being replaced to allow for a final negotiation push rather than a capitulation. The referendum might have worked if they'd pushed through with the implicit threat it contained (although I doubt it now with hindsight given how mad germany's bargaining position is), now it just looks like a waste of time. Still, one good thing came out of it, which is that Tsipras can't really accept the offers on the table, and may actually have to Grexit after all. That's clearly the best route for everyone at this point.

 

[CTLance]

Tsipras should reject the deal, resign, call elections and let the Greek electorate device his fate for being unprepared.

Problem is, that takes time, and that is the one thing that's basically already run out.

Even if the FinMins would suddenly have a collective Eureka moment and figured out how to save Greece at no cost to anybody whatsoever while reshuffling the debt in a very PR and industry friendly way, the resulting paperwork would still take long enough to make it a close shave. This is not like Joe Shmoe going to the bank and getting a quick loan. This involves many government bodies across Europe. And a whole freaking lot of bureaucracy on top of that.

 

[Coriolanus]

I doubt Greece is getting out of the Euro, none of the countries involve knows whats going to happen if we loose Greece, the absurd demands are going to be reduced in the next few days.

No time. Way things are set up, he has to bring that crap to his parliament until wednesday for a vote, and it's pass or get the boot.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Problem is, that takes time, and that is the one thing that's basically already run out.

Even if the FinMins would suddenly have a collective Eureka moment and figured out how to save Greece at no cost to anybody whatsoever while reshuffling the debt in a very PR and industry friendly way, the resulting paperwork would still take long enough to make it a close shave. This is not like Joe Shmoe going to the bank and getting a quick loan. This involves many government bodies across Europe. And a whole freaking lot of bureaucracy on top of that.

EBC would make it fine for the time it would take.

But that scenario is not happening.

 

[Joni]

The EU is all about democracy apparently, well the people voted no.

They voted down a specific deal as Tsipiras is claiming. This is another one. Also, if the EU is all about democracy, 15 of 19 countries voting otherwise seems like a clear democratic signal.

 

[oti]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

 

[Piecake]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

European politicians are a bunch of morons

 

[KingSnake]

Problem is, that takes time, and that is the one thing that's basically already run out.

Even if the FinMins would suddenly have a collective Eureka moment and figured out how to save Greece at no cost to anybody whatsoever while reshuffling the debt in a very PR and industry friendly way, the resulting paperwork would still take long enough to make it a close shave. This is not like Joe Shmoe going to the bank and getting a quick loan. This involves many government bodies across Europe. And a whole freaking lot of bureaucracy on top of that.

Tsipras will still be interim PM until elections and he would still have to administrate the country.

 

[Joni]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

Obama: 'Oh shit, what can I do to avoid Russia getting into Greece?'
Putin: 'Should I try wrestling crocodiles? That Crocodile Dundee makes it seem easy?'

 

[petran79]

He is about to.

I weep for Greece and it's utterly shit politicians. I fear for the future of Greek politics now that all of the mainstream parties have signed up to this "unity" deal. Only the extremists are left opposing it. Only the extremist parties are on the side of Greek people. SYRIZA and Tsipras are about to betray the Greek people.

to be frank, in Greece the only party that has an adamant and unchanging opinion regarding Greece and Europe (and tight control over its members as well), is the Greek Communists. Not Euro-Communists though, rather more hardline. For this alone they are more trustworthy than the other parties. Problem is that everyone there has to be an economist to understand what they trying to tell.

But regarding social matters and awareness, that party is more active than any other

 

[oti]

European politicians are a bunch of morons

I'm sure Putin would be at least somewhat proud of those proposals.

 

[TheExecutive]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

Obama is playing golf and Putin is snorting coke off a random's tits.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

Putin: "Wonder if they'll actually get to agree on something if I just roll into Finland and Ukraine right now."

Obama: "I got to save these clowns if some shit really goes down?"

 

[ElTorro]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

Obama: "Would still trade EU politicians for Republicans."

Putin: "Democracy was a mistake. It is nothing but trash."

 

[norinrad]

European politicians are a bunch of morons

Pretty much so. With the way Greece has been treated, i wonder if the Ukrainians and others are anxious to join the EU.

 

[ironcreed]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

and

 

[KingSnake]

I wonder what Obama and Putin are thinking right now.

Obama: so, those NSA transcripts were really true, not written by a madman?

Putin: I hope they still have enough money for my gas.

 

[PJV3]

He is about to.

I weep for Greece and it's utterly shit politicians. I fear for the future of Greek politics now that all of the mainstream parties have signed up to this "unity" deal. Only the extremists are left opposing it. Only the extremist parties are on the side of Greek people. SYRIZA and Tsipras are about to betray the Greek people.

Well i'm hoping this is too much for any of his party to tolerate. Sign over your assets, legislstion needing to be approved by Merkel etc.

Fuck that.

 

[TheExecutive]

Putin: "Wonder if they'll actually get to agree on something if I just roll into Finland and Ukraine right now."

Obama: "I got to save these clowns if some shit really goes down?"

There is no chance the U.S. bails Europe out. There was enough stink created when our banks were bailed out. Congress would never approve such a bail out... ever.

 

[jakonovski]

Putin seems to be making moves. Russia considering direct fuel deliveries to Greece.

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/repor...reece-energy-minister-alexander-novak-2103982

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/12/us-eurozone-greece-russia-energy-idUSKCN0PM0H320150712

 

[jorma]

Putin is probably preparing a statment.


"In response to the looting of Greece and deliberate destabilisation of a neighbouring sovereign country, the Russian Federations has imposed restrictive measures against the EU."

 

[ElTorro]

Jumping into bed with Putin may have pissed of the Baltic states even more than the financial issues.

 

[oti]

"Seek help among your friends, not your enemies - especially when they are unable to help you. And if you want to help your friends in need, do not humiliate them." - Tusk, just a few days ago.


What happened to Europe?

 

[KingSnake]

More on "Institute for Growth" that wd manage #Greece assets: CEO Ulrich Schröder had 20yr at WestLB (4 bailouts). Schäuble+Gabriel on board

https://twitter.com/PoliticoRyan/status/620336194254184448

Now, I don't know exactly who he is, but he's a registered user and was referred by someone who was recommended by BBC.

 

[maniac-kun]

Next week: Greece gets annexed by Russia.

 

[jakonovski]

Jumping into bed with Putin may have pissed of the Baltic states even more than the financial issues.

Euro as a weapon for international policy disagreements makes it an even worse idea. Nokia is dead so who cares -- Finxit!

 

[KingSnake]

Yeah, going to Putin pissed off the Eastern Europe. Another mistake of Tsipras. Especially since Russia had nothing to offer to Greece.

 

[LoveCake]

They voted down a specific deal as Tsipiras is claiming. This is another one. Also, if the EU is all about democracy, 15 of 19 countries voting otherwise seems like a clear democratic signal.

Yes a specific deal, this is worse, should this go to the vote as well?

As for the 15 of 19 countries, it is the leaders of those countries voting, not the citizens, i agree there cannot be a vote for the citizens every time & the leaders have to do what they think is right for their country (citizens) but also for the European Project, now like them or not, they are no different from us, but their decisions have far reaching implications.

 

[Xando]

They should get on and make a decision. Whatever that might be.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

In that case they should have never started with their referendum shenanigans.

At this point I don't think this is about what reforms will be in place anymore, but about how these reforms will be decided on.
The greek people need to get the feeling that they are in charge. It won't work if you basically force them to accept anything because if the population is not on board it won't work anyway.
At the end of the day they'll have to accept reforms at least as harsh as the ones they voted "no" on, but they have to feel like they had a choice and were in charge.

I completely get the greek reaction over the past 5 months, I get why they voted for a left party after 5 years of troika showed zero progress.

But I'm hugely disappointed by how fucking dumb Germany and other countries reacted. This situation required smart diplomacy because greeces actions were very pride driven, but Germany and others reacted with arrogance and thats a shame. Europe had some great statesmen and women over time, but it seems like we have none right now.

 

[Keio]

What's the armchair theorists perspective on the motivation of Germany et al: will the average CDU voter be energized by this dumbfuckery?

 

[KingSnake]

What's the armchair theorists perspective on the motivation of Germany et al: will the average CDU voter be energized by this dumbfuckery?

Watch how many people will use "trust"® in the next days and you will get your answer.

 

[maniac-kun]

#ThisIsACoup is nr.1 on German twitter. People dont like what our government has done there.

 

[Napalm_Frank]

Man, I saw one photo of Tsirpas where he looked like he had aged 10 years in the last week. Gotta get even rougher back home.

 

[Coriolanus]

What's the armchair theorists perspective on the motivation of Germany et al: will the average CDU voter be energized by this dumbfuckery?

Schauble is evidently setting things up with collusion in mind if Greece does decide to spread wide on top of bending over. Merkel is trying to cover her own ass so that bailing out Greece again doesn't entail political suicide.

Both are prolly perfectly happy with a grexit.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

What's the armchair theorists perspective on the motivation of Germany et al: will the average CDU voter be energized by this dumbfuckery?

You bet! Its ridiculous how everybody is suddenly united when its about dull generalizations about how lazy greeks are.
Nationalism is such an ugly beast.

But I don't think thats the CDUs goal. It was just a big dumb mistake to let the finance ministers of the countries do the talking. Their job is to secure national financial interests...

 

[Theonik]

#ThisIsACoup is nr.1 on German twitter. People dont like what our government has done there.

But who is trying to overthrow whom?! Is Germany right not to trust Tsipras? Is Tsipras planning a South European left wing revolution?!
Are the LaLiLuLeLo involved somehow?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Well i'm hoping this is too much for any of his party to tolerate. Sign over your assets, legislstion needing to be approved by Merkel etc.

Fuck that.

The home of democracy is about to install a national unity government made up of the "moderate" SYRIZA MPs, To Potami, New Democracy and whatever is left of PASOK. Between them they have a majority in the Greek Parliament and will be able to put through the legislation on Wednesday and win a confidence motion should one arise.

Greek politicians are traitorous scum and deserve to be imprisoned for their crimes against the Greek people. 40 years of austerity and theft of state assets is not a deal anyone should accept.

You know me, I'm hardly a communist or even a leftist, but this deal is a disgrace and Tsipras is a lunatic for even thinking of signing it.

 

[Xando]

#ThisIsACoup is nr.1 on German twitter. People dont like what our government has done there.

Twitter revolution usually lasts until one direction announces a new concert.

 

[KingSnake]

A second break in the discussions. The waterboarding makes one feel tired.

 

[jakonovski]

Are the LaLiLuLeLo involved somehow?

I could totally go for some AI dictatorship right about now.

 

[Keio]

You bet! Its ridiculous how everybody is suddenly united when its about dull generalizations about how lazy greeks are.
Nationalism is such an ugly beast.

But I don't think thats the CDUs goal. It was just a big dumb mistake to let the finance ministers of the countries do the talking. Their job is to secure national financial interests...

That's actually a POV I failed to consider - finmins are definitely the wrong type of character, same as asking the CFOs of a corporation to draft the strategy.

I guess many European PMs actually felt Greece was an economic, not a political issue.

 

[Melon Husk]

'This is about who has the upper hand'
Posted at 20:55

What has happened in the last 24 hours is quite extraordinary. I'll dare say that we're living in historic moments through the transformation of the eurozone and indeed the European Union. It's not only about Greece any longer. This is about who has the upper hand in the eurozone.

- Dimitrios Syrrakos
Eurozone economist, Manchester Metropolitan University

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-33497309 Good stream to follow if not as immediate as twitter. BTW Guardian has the best front page. French in their typical way talk about themselves, Germans push the "trust" narrative.

 

[fanboi]

'This is about who has the upper hand'
Posted at 20:55


- Dimitrios Syrrakos
Eurozone economist, Manchester Metropolitan University

http://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-33497309 Good stream to follow if not as immediate as twitter. BTW Guardian has the best front page. French in their typical way talk about themselves, Germans push the "trust" narrative.

And Sweden is neutral and during the break tell Germany how good they are and they are in the right!

 

[Xando]

@OlafGersemann: #Greece. Sources: Among those 3 hold-outs, only #France and #Cyprus were true believers, #Italy was "so-so". @jandams @welt @MartinGreive

https://twitter.com/olafgersemann/status/620336952513069056