spindoctor
Member
Whatever else one might think about the situation, this is fucking hilarious. Eggs and yoghurt lol.
Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
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Whatever else one might think about the situation, this is fucking hilarious. Eggs and yoghurt lol.
Steiner_Zi
Member
There are a lot of things that need to be fixed but your list is way over the top. To say that people in Greece earn €60,000 means you are completely ignorant. You are lucky and among the privileged if you earn €1,000 per month (and with taxes and deductions your net income is at best half of that amount, lol at your 96%).M°°nblade;171275618 said:I justed googled the first items I listed and found:
In Greece, A Hairdresser Can Retire At 50 With Full Benefits
http://www.businessinsider.com/in-greece-you-can-retire-at-50-with-full-benefits-2010-3
As a consequence of decades of bargains struck between strong unions and weak governments, Greece has promised early retirement to about 700,000 employees, or 14 percent of its work force, giving it an average retirement age of 61, one of the lowest in Europe.
The law includes dangerous jobs like coal mining and bomb disposal. But it also covers radio and television presenters, who are thought to be at risk from the bacteria on their microphones, and musicians playing wind instruments, who must contend with gastric reflux as they puff and blow.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/business/global/12pension.html?_r=0
It was found that 2,999 pensioners had died at least six months before they stopped receiving their pension. According to Greek media, incorrectly paid pensions amounted to 57,127,388 euros, of which 37,797,425 euros have been repaid to the Greek state either from the accounts of pensioners or by the joint holders of their accounts. The search process for the rest 19,329,964 euros is still in progress. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...dead-to-receive-pension/#sthash.iSkJFfu5.dpuf
Also found:
Other "blind" locals have been seen cheerfully playing cards and backgammon in the tavernas and bars of the island. "Out of 650 registered blind people on the island, we estimate that at least 600 are fraudulent claims," the mayor told The Sunday Telegraph in his office overlooking the boats crowding the port of Zakynthos Town, the main settlement.
That represents nearly two per cent of the island's population of 35,000 - nearly 10 times the average rate of blindness in the rest of Europe, according to the World Health Organisation.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...fraud-as-mayor-of-Zakynthos-faces-revolt.html
Fjolle
Member
Completely?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_of_Greece#Financial_problems
"Hellenic Railways operates at a loss of about $3.8 million per day, having accumulated a total debt of 13 billion $, or about 5% of Greek GDP (2010). The bulk of this debt will mature in 2014. In 2008, the company reported a loss of more than $ 1 billion, on sales of about $ 253 million. Between 2000 and 2009, the cost of the companys payroll soared by 50 percent even as overall personnel decreased by 30 percent. The average salary of a rail employee is over $78,000. In the mountainous Peloponnese region, trains manned by drivers being paid as much as $130,000 a year frequently run empty. For the better part of a decade, Greece has provided sovereign backing to Hellenic Railways, thus allowing it to borrow billions even though the companys finances are so skewed that it pays three times as much on interest expenses than it collects in revenue. As the debt of state-owned enterprises was not counted toward Greeces official debt, Greece has been able to use the rail system as a means to support employment while not adding to its official debt number; basically an accounting trick to hide debt. The Greek government is aware that only the closure of a substantial number of loss-making routes and large employment cuts (between 2500-3500 of the 7000 staff) will make Hellenic Railways attractive to foreign investors. But the Railway Union opposes privatization and threatens with strikes if jobs and benefits are threatened.[9] Nevertheless, some lines have been closed since 2010 (see below)."
Ted Striker
Neo Member
"there are 50 registered drivers for every registered car in Greece, so there's massive tax fraud here as well"
What the hell does this mean? There were around 7.6 mil registered cars in Greece in 2014, does this mean there are 380 mil drivers?
Edit: Answer is no, there are less registered drivers than cars.
What the hell does this mean? There were around 7.6 mil registered cars in Greece in 2014, does this mean there are 380 mil drivers?
Edit: Answer is no, there are less registered drivers than cars.
My words exactly!
Member
Ι was not sarcastic, i agree with you
Yep. As i said, these are a 10-15% that do indeed enjoy ridiculous benefits.
However the remaining 80-85% is far from this madness.
My father is a builder/construction worker. He will have to retire at 65-67 yo.
Many unions have blackmailed previous governments to have their occupations filed under "Βαρέα και ανθυγιεινά" meaning ''Heavy & hazardous workload" even if they had no right to (like hairdressers above).
Reforms were made but there is still ground to cover:
http://www.dikaiologitika.gr/images/eikones hot news/ikabarea.pdf
M°°nblade;171275618 said:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...pension_expenditure_and_pension_beneficiaries
While pension and insurance fraud is quite a common crime and more so prevalent in the more corrupt countries the impact of those is big only in the tabloids. Otherwise one would think the UK for example is in a much worse state than Greece, just by looking at the newspapers articles. Luckily statistics are here to help a bit.
What's also important is that:
Of course the harsh GDP drop in the years post crisis didn't help with this. Now, how to fix this issue? Kill the pensioners or try to make the GDP grow and business grow and have more active tax payers?
Theonik
Member
Increasing the retirement age is kind of a hard topic imo. Obviously with life expectancy increasing, it might seem to be a necessity for achieving a sustainable pension system. However, even with people living longer, their productivity at older ages has not improved, which creates a real issue with late retirement being a burden to employers and the work market as a whole.
If it was not there would be no real reason to even give people pensions in the first place. Early pensions are conceptually intended to factor in long term effects of the nature and hazard of a given profession on the productivity and quality of life of the employee and mitigate extra burden on the system. (you don't want 67 year old air traffic controllers for instance)
That being said, there is room for reforms certainly and some of the categories for hazardous professions are nuts. Work is being made on those reforms but it's an uphill battle.
Edit:
If it was not there would be no real reason to even give people pensions in the first place. Early pensions are conceptually intended to factor in long term effects of the nature and hazard of a given profession on the productivity and quality of life of the employee and mitigate extra burden on the system. (you don't want 67 year old air traffic controllers for instance)
That being said, there is room for reforms certainly and some of the categories for hazardous professions are nuts. Work is being made on those reforms but it's an uphill battle.
Edit:
From a totally pessimistic standpoint those are not mutually exclusive! Many nations with high growth also have low life expectancies!
Frankfurter
Member
What is this supposed to prove? Merkel + Greece brings up about about a million google results.
Retirement age is a complex subject. A secondary effect of increasing the retirement age in the weak economies is an increase of unemployment for the young people entering on the work market, as less places get freed up by retirements and not enough new work places are created. But on the other hand the pension system is not sustainable without it.
I read many times that the main, if not only, reason why you can't just get rid of early retirements is that in Greece pensions are used as a substitution for a real social security net, where receivers of pensions have to use their pensions to support unemployed family members.
The real answer here would be to install a social security net that guarantees each Greek the minimum amount of money necessary for basic needs. Coupled with the obligation to accept a job whenever one becomes available. Such a system would have the big advantage that it could and would not be challenged by the creditors. Most voters don't support cutting such a minimum social security. You would find much stronger support for such a system.
I too think that minimum social security for food, shelter, and health care should be a standard across Europe, supported by a transfer union if necessary. Of course it's not trivial to define the range of standard benefits included in an affordable health care system, but it has to be done nonetheless.
The real answer here would be to install a social security net that guarantees each Greek the minimum amount of money necessary for basic needs. Coupled with the obligation to accept a job whenever one becomes available. Such a system would have the big advantage that it could and would not be challenged by the creditors. Most voters don't support cutting such a minimum social security. You would find much stronger support for such a system.
I too think that minimum social security for food, shelter, and health care should be a standard across Europe, supported by a transfer union if necessary. Of course it's not trivial to define the range of standard benefits included in an affordable health care system, but it has to be done nonetheless.
Read my edit1 and Fjolle's post. It's true for railroad personnel.
Theonik
Member
Yes, you end up in a situation where you have a significant number of people occupying jobs that they don't have the ability to productively fill while the fact these positions are occupied keeps younger people off the job market.
I disagree about most voters not being opposed to such a system. A large number of people ascribe to a 'Fuck you got mine' mentality. Just look at the ridiculousness the UK social safety net is subjected to daily.
Ultimately it is a productive debate to have, but not so much a Greek discussion but something Europe as a whole should discuss. The Swiss minimum income referendum might be something we should look at going forward.
I don't know, I've looked on the first 4 or 5 pages in those results (between October 1 2013 - post German federal elections and December 2014 - after which shit hit the fan again) and I can't find any statement from Merkel condemning the lack of reforms. On the contrary, there is praise for the Greek government like in the quote from my post.
Steiner_Zi
Member
What I mean is that yes, there were (and still are) some people who had way too high salaries in state-owned companies or others who commited fraud by abusing the system to get false benefits and they were not get caught because of the bureacracy and archaic administration processes.. But to make such strong generalisations and say that this describes the average Greek is some of the worst type of propaganda. I am Greek and I've lived in the UK for 2 years now: Greece couldn't even imagine having UK's welfare benefit system. In the UK when you are unempoyed or have low earnings, the state backs you up by granting you an allowance AND paying you your housing rent. In Greece there's nothing of the sort: if you get unemployed, you may receive an allowance for 6 months and then THAT'S IT, no social protection net! It is a sad reality that many young people and families have been able to survive off their grandparents' pensions. By the way, speaking of pensions, my mother is a civil servant and she will retire at the age of 67.
Yes, the Greek state is a mess and needs to reform. What it has been doing the past 5 years is cut, cut, cut spending to the point of destroying the whole economy. This whole misconception "oh bloody Greeks are just partying thanks to our money" needs to stop because it couldn't be further from the truth. You are just being fed some isolated juicy tidbits by your national media and think you really know what's being going in the country the last few years.
This is how reality looks like:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/30/greek-austerity-toll_n_7696650.html
- The economy shrunk by a quarter
- 1 million jobs vanished (in a country when the total population is 11 million)
- One in four people are unemployed
- Half of young people are unemployed
- Over 200,000 Greeks have left the country
- The only European country where the minimum wage has dropped
If we discuss about the wage levels, this page should help you better than pointing out the extremes:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs
Estimated hourly labour costs, 2014:
Also, about the taxation of the income:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs
Estimated hourly labour costs, 2014:
Also, about the taxation of the income:
I specifically said 'railroad employee'
Steiner_Zi
Member
The country has a 320 billion euros debt, do you think that a few select employees earning 60,000-70,000 per year are to blame?M°°nblade;171279362 said:
Obviously not but all these isolated cases reflect how dysfunctional the entire administrative system has been.
Theonik
Member
Those isolated cases represent isolated cases. If they reflected the system as a whole then they by definition would not be considered isolated cases. Choose which one it is!
Any social economic system will collapse when you keep piling exceptions on top of exceptions, 'isolated cases' and privileges for certain groups, islands, political parties, the military, the church, etc ..
PS1: Greece has indeed a very excessive number of civil servants (800,000 in a country of 11 mil)
http://www.stern.nyu.edu/networks/Economides_Greek_and_EU_Crisis_Sacramento_04262013.pdf
Another item which isn't bullshit as well ...
PS2: A few weeks, Tsipras promoted 12 of his partymembers as 'directors in the ministry of education'. That's political clientelism. Still think he's the hero of Greece, fighting against corruption while he's abusing the system at the same time?
spindoctor
Member
I just watched a little bit of the European Parliament proceedings. I have to say, I felt really bad for the Greek PM just having to sit there with a poker face as one European leader after the next went after him and his country pointing out what they've done wrong.
I saw this video yesterday where a meat market in Athens was completely deserted because no one has money to buy food. And the shopkeepers were just sitting around hoping someone would come and buy something.
It's a really sad situation all around. I wish there had been more time for all parties to resolve the issue.
I saw this video yesterday where a meat market in Athens was completely deserted because no one has money to buy food. And the shopkeepers were just sitting around hoping someone would come and buy something.
It's a really sad situation all around. I wish there had been more time for all parties to resolve the issue.
Steiner_Zi
Member
Of course the whole system needs a major overhaul along with many other things in the country. Previous governments agreed to austerity, cut vulnerable people's income, increased taxes and cut pensions but didn't touch any special interests in the country that were benefiting from this archaic public administration system. For example, the vast majority of the elderly receive an extremely low pension of €300 but there are others (like in the military) who receive unfairly high pensions or even two pensions from two different sources. There's also the issue of the Greek Church which is still funded by the Greek state (i.e. priests get paid by the government as if they were public servants) which is absurd in 2015. What is more, TV channels enjoy a special privilege of not paying taxes for their broadcasting licence - this is something that no government before even dared to consider and which Syriza has promised to prioritise (and this is why most Greek media are against Syriza and supported the "Yes" in the referendum). Tsipras's success or failure will depend on whether he decides to fight those special interests because without reforms you cannot make any demands neither from the Europeans to lend you more money nor from the Greek people to endure many more years of austerity.
Osiris
I permanently banned my 6 year old daughter from using the PS4 for mistakenly sending grief reports as it's too hard to watch or talk to her
Ted Striker
Neo Member
I bet they don't accept debit/bank cards.
Some were tough on him but what else to talk about if there are no proposals.
Some were just cruel of course. Looking at you CSU clown.
Some were just hilarious. Really dangerous extremists but hilarious.
Ohohoh, change something about the church and prepare for another civil war.
Steiner_Zi
Member
No one is saying that Greece is not mostly to blame as it is true that it spent recklessly the last 20 years. But the handling of the crisis by the European institutions and the IMF has been abysmal and has made things much worse. Public debt was 129% of the GDP in 2010 when the country had its first bailout and now it's skyrocketed to 180% (after 200+ billions of bailouts!). This is why sticking to the same austerity and introducing even harsher measures will only make matters worse.M°°nblade;171280829 said:
I'd recommend you watch this 3-year-old short documentary by UK's Channel 4 (with none other than Varoufakis as the narrator!) that shows a glimpse of the real situation in Greece. Unfortunately the situation has only deteriotated since then.
When you're allowed max. 60€/day, I'd say it's time to reevaluate those 'founding principle of your modern state'
Over here in Finland all members have to pay a special church tax (1%).
I think the church does a lot of good work, provides shelter for people in need and feeds the downtrodden. I'm not exactly religious but I still belong for that exact reason. I would assume the situation is somewhat similar in Greece as in Y % of tax revenue is earmarked for that purpose? But it is a bit shady when these institutions use specific tax benefits to game the housing market.
Red Mage
Member
The church should never be paid for by the government. Leave them alone, tax-wise, but cut all funding. They should have to survive on tithes. I never understood this aspect of European society.
I don't understand this. How does spending less money by breaking down the priviliges, etc ... not make things better?
Theonik
Member
I agree but you are touching centuries of deep integration dating back from the olden days when the Church exercised true political power. This wasn't the case in Greece but the Church had a key role in maintaining Greek unity during the Ottoman years and in supporting the liberation and founding of the Greek state. Many Greeks consider it a core part of their identity so it's something that you wouldn't touch even with all the political cache in the world much less when the country is in the brink of collapse. Deep changes like these come from the population not their governments.
Spending less money isn't always smart. In the first place, you need to be careful about what you cut.M°°nblade;171283559 said:
France and many other european countries would like to have a word with you...
Steiner_Zi
Member
When an economy is sick, you don't beat it to death and expect it to recover and pay you back the billions it owes you.M°°nblade;171283559 said:
Cutting needless spending and tackling tax evasion is one thing, cutting most people's income by 30%-50% by taxes and cuts is another. It's basic economics really: people will no longer spend or consume so money no longer circulates so no growth so debt burden is only gonna get worse and loans will be impossible to repay. You have a country where 1/4 of the workforce and 1/2 of young people are unemployed. How is this economy expected to recover any time soon and pay back the public debt? This is why America's approach to tackle the crisis was the complete opposite to that of Germany's: they ordered their central bank to print more money and encouraged spending.
Even IMF themselves admitted it back in 2013 that their austerity measures failed: IMF admits: we failed to realise the damage austerity would do to Greece
That one is incorrect based on just Belgium. That really looks like the number of employees for the federal government.I found this data from 2010 in a report from the Spanish government. Does not include employment in public cooperations, only in the general administration. See footnotes, excludes, for instance, medics, teachers, and academics.
http://www.dgaep.gov.pt/upload/RI_estudos Presidências/Public_Employment_EUMS.pdf
Theonik
Member
Administration employees so yes. Not 100% of the public sector.
Is it more or less special than their relationship with food and proper medicine supplies?
I can understand that Greeks don't want anti-development measures, but if you can't touch obvious non-development stuff like this either, what's left to reform or sacrifice? Nothing.
Our total funds seem less than half of what the Orthodox church alone receives, while we have the same amount of population:
Total 91.851.381 euro
Catholics: 71.806.780 euro
Humanistic: 8.166.444 euro
Islamic: 4.338.273 euro
Protestant: 3.671.858 euro
Orthodox: 1.445.687 euro
Israelism: 965.434 euro
Buddhism: 941.076 euro
Anglican: 515.829 euro
But it's being debated at the moment. Most citizens wouldn't mind reductions.
Greece:
The 10,000 priests and bishops are paid by the state, which costs €220m ($295m) a year.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/04/greece-orthodox-church-economic-crisis
Yeah, sure France. If Merkel says Nein France says Nein too.
M°°nblade;171285332 said:
You're preaching to the choir. I hate that there's church tax in Germany and I also hate the the biggest party has the word Christian in the name.
But Greece and the church is a very complicated relationship. Almost everyone is Greek Orthodox, there are churches EVERYWHERE. Being religious is part of being Greek for many. I'd love to see all the benefits for any church in every country go for good but try to make that proposal to Greece and be ready for the reaction. But again, even Germany is too conservative to do it. A country in which only the south is really into religion anyway.
Greece is a state with deep theocratic roots. Orthodox church is extremely rich - for example Patriarchate of Constantinople has lots to its name throughout Greece. Its riches are deposited at the National Bank of Greece (at some point it was rumored that the Church wanted to have a word in managing the bank). Threats of taxation are answered with threats of withdrawing the insane amounts of money, which would lead to a spectacular collapse of the bank within a night. This is why governments are afraid to do so.
Another problematic state is the amounts of defense spending. Tsipras is locked by his defense minister, a far-right pig who threatened to resign (thus dissolving the government) if Tsipras compromised with reducing the army budget.
He obviously can't touch the shipowners, he is to weak to do so.
He is trapped in a really sorry state in the negotiations, here's hoping things will go well this week :/
Steiner_Zi
Member
This not the whole story though. Yes, Greeks have historically had much tighter ties to their Church than, say, the English; being Christian has tradionally defined their national identity. However, people and especially the young have grown to be increasingly apathetic towards the Church and would not mind at all to cut its privileges. I'd say that a vocal minority will strongly oppose it but many will also celebrate it.
Eien1no1Yami
Member
@Theonik and @oti xero
As i understand you are both Greeks right?
I check the thread quite a lot every day and i make the assumption that you are both very calm
How can you be so calm?I don't really understand it.
I am greek and especially since yesterday I tremble with fear for what is going to happen to my country.
I go to work every day and i just can't concentrate, I don't sleep well.
I really don't know how to cope with the situation :/.
As i understand you are both Greeks right?
I check the thread quite a lot every day and i make the assumption that you are both very calm
How can you be so calm?I don't really understand it.
I am greek and especially since yesterday I tremble with fear for what is going to happen to my country.
I go to work every day and i just can't concentrate, I don't sleep well.
I really don't know how to cope with the situation :/.
I sure hope so but I really do not believe it would be a vocal majority rather than a minority.
Theonik
Member
I'm actually relatively fond of the defence minister. Also he's not the only reason why the defence budget is not touched. Greece is one of 3 countries in the Eurozone that actually is compliant with NATO recommendation for military spending. There is reaction both politically and from NATO every time cuts have been proposed. Overall I think to solve this in the long run Europe needs to agree on having common budgets for common interest matters such as defence spending. Countries like Greece have high defence expenditures which benefit other states as well but are not interested in actually footing the bill. This needs to change.
I'm Greek but I was born and I grew up in Germany. I'm as German as Sauerkraut and as Greek as Tsatsiki. I do have lots and lots of family in Greece and trust me, I'm very nervous. I've been very nervous since hell broke loose last month. I can't sleep well, I'm on the phone countless of hours trying to calm down crying and desperate relatives while trying to study for my economics exams. This thread here is somewhat of a way to vent a bit. People here are way more knowledgeable than most Germans I have to face every single day with their "jokes" about bankrupt Greece and their snarky remarks. I try to make some jokes here and there otherwise I'd leave this thread and log off for a month until my exams are over.
We are all nervous.
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