ravingloon said:
He's laughing because like me he finds it humorous that you were so quick to stick your foot in your mouth. Don't worry all of us makes ourselves look incredibly dumb at some point during out lives. It's all good babypop.
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GT4 PS2 and PSP details from Edge.
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He's laughing because like me he finds it humorous that you were so quick to stick your foot in your mouth. Don't worry all of us makes ourselves look incredibly dumb at some point during out lives. It's all good babypop.
They already have multiple LOD sets for the cars. Just use fewer of them, with a lower detail as the close up.
The comment about DVD9 is interesting too, bearing in mind UMDs are only 1.8GB.
It would be easy to simply bash Polyphony, but can you imagine how much pressure SCEI are putting on them to get a PS2 level GT4 out on PSP as soon as possible? Its the perfect showcase of what the console can do (providing it *can* actually do it)
Black_Mamba
Member
WTF does LOD mean?
I've heard it sucks in Killzone.
I've heard it sucks in Killzone.
Level Of Detail. You have several versions of the same model, with varying degrees of detail.
Close up, you show the best one, and have effects on (reflections on a car are a good example). Then, as the object gets further away, you switch off effects and flick to lower detail models.
This can be done well, or very badly.
Close up, you show the best one, and have effects on (reflections on a car are a good example). Then, as the object gets further away, you switch off effects and flick to lower detail models.
This can be done well, or very badly.
GT5 on the PS3 should be developed with a 20+ car field in mind, or whatever the JGTCC and BTCC run. Oh, and it's all about the MR-S baby!!! I used to be a Skyline whore, but it's really about the JGTCC MR-S. Loses a mile on the straights, but gains back two in the twisties. PEACE.
I used to be a Skyline whore, but it's really about the JGTCC MR-S. Loses a mile on the straights, but gains back two in the twisties. PEACE.Rainbow L33T
Member
That's if you can put a handle on the car in the twisties.Can you Duane?
Haven't seen too much Killzone media but try watching the Halo 2 demo from last E3. The difference between the various LOD levels is extremely noticable. You can clearly see how objects become more or less defined and have effects added or removed as you move towards or away from them. It's an example of a poor LOD implementation. Dunno how it is in the final game.Black_Mamba said:WTF does LOD mean?
I've heard it sucks in Killzone.
SolidSnakex
Member
ara said:
Everyone that's played GT4 has said the handeling is much better and more realistic than before. They didn't make it easier or anything.
the key IMO with PSP is to get the physics and cars/tracks in there. Also they need to come up with some way of tranferring saves between PSP/PS2 (memory stick adapter for PS2?)
Graphics are last on the list for me - but I imagine they are pretty high on the list from SCEI mangagement.
Graphics are last on the list for me - but I imagine they are pretty high on the list from SCEI mangagement.
Er, how much use do you actually think is for untextured fillrate in a GT game? The game doesn't even have realtime shadowing to use it on - and aside for the couple of streetlamp lightflares which they render modelled instead of textured, there really isn't much to talk about. Vast majority of the framebuffer effects all require textured fill to work.Panajev said:
Anyway - if the PSP GT game is really supposed to be out in January then I don't know how anyone could expect a proper quality port - there just isn't nearly enough time, not even with PDs teams.
They already have 3(or was it 4) LOD levels built for every car, it's not exactly rocket science to set default LOD one level lower. I highly doubt drawing cars is the real problem in the first place though.Argyle said:
Well from the stuff I actually know it's used - it generally boils down to shadowsbuffers & volumes, certain particular types of particle effects that still look nice modelled instead of textured (like streetlamp flares), and say around 10% of the framebuffer math on PS2.Squeak said:
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:
Or lots of other alpha-blended effects: think summons in FFX.
Think snow effects in Z.O.E. 2 and the other particle effects (like the fight with the first boss).
Not really - FF effect stuff is largely about warping and blending draw buffers on top of one another - how do you propose that would work without textured drawing? Equally so for MGS - all the effects like in the opening scene - from rain, the large amount of light glows, motion, focal and other blurs, they are all textured draws.Panajev said:
As for particles - like I said, it works for some cases when shapes are simple or/and small enough to model. Obviously in ZOE2 you get situations where actual weapon projectiles are numerous enough to be generated by a particle engine, and they are not only modeled, but actual 3d shapes.
But then ZOE also isn't just a glorified cutscene player like FFX, and when drawing lots of small particles the most relevant cost becomes particle model simulation - CPU/vertex processors, not drawing. So for something like ZOE2 PSP might have problems with speed well before ever rendering anything.
But anyway this is way off topic - we weren't discussing the feasibility of ZOE2 on PSP, at least not until Konami announces the port
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:
What is the problem thet is taking most of the time ?
Disc space ? Even shipping with two UMDs would not help: that is still not enough space.
They gain a little bit of space over the PlayStation 2 version by compressing all the soundtracks and videos with ATRAC3+ and MPEG4 AVC respectively, but I do not think that will make the whole difference from a DVD9 to a UMD.
Untextured fill-rate... well... shadows... dust, lens flare (the sun).
I agree this might, in GT4, not be the worst problem.
Disc space, reduced main RAM (out of 32 MB I think there is less available for PSP games than the ~31 MB that PlayStation 2 games get to use), code conversion (going from VU1 to VFPU + GPU T&L unit), etc... are even bigger problems than fill-rate.
Clipping must be a pain already: GT4 for PlayStation 2 is highly optimized for the PlayStation 2 architecture and there is tons of stuff to re-do.
Clipping can be a big change. Do you move all T&L code to the VFPU to mirror what you do with the VU1 and VU0 on PlayStation 2 ? Do you do clipping in object space and perform it on the VFPU ?
A conversion in few months does seem as a nightmare for Polyphony: I do trust that they are perfectionist enough to make the right trade-offs or request a deadline extension.
Pimpwerx said:
Agreed...the idea of people actually preferring to race against so few competitors just boggles the mind. More to the point, there's simply no excuse for it. I for one couldn't care less that the Impreza's cup holder, door handle or key hole is rendered in 3D...gimme a nice, big crowd to battle against damnit.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fafalada said:
If MGS2 is all about textured fill-rate why does NV2A choke on it that much ? Is bandwidth limitation killing its efficiency ?
Yes, you are as usual right... darn experience pays off... it would make sense as render-to-texture effects on NV2A involve writing/reading to/from the shared RAM and the bandwidth is not that high there.
PSP, texturing wise, has better fill-rate than PlayStation 2 (if you scale by the resolution):
664 MPixels/s * 2.2 = 1.46 GPixels/s and if the stories are indeed true and bi-linear comes free this means that we do hit 1.46 GTexels/s on PSP (well, 664 MTexels/s, but I am still multiplying by the scale resolution factor 2.2 ).
PSP would then be ~1.21x faster than PlayStation 2 drawing textured pixels.
So, for textured draws to do all those special effects PSP should be faster.
The PSP GPU has a 512 bits bus running at 166 MHz to feed 4 pixel pipelines: 10.6 GB/s / 4 = 2.65 GB/s per pipeline.
The GS has a combined 2,560 bits running at 150 MHz bus to feed 16 pixel pipelines: 48 GB/s / 16 = 3 GB/s per pipeline.
While th GS only has CLUT textures, he PSP GPU has also S3TC compressed textures: granted that they do not help with render-to-texture effects much directly, but they can help reduce the bandwidth used to load other textures.
Counting the bandwidth advantage of the GS would level the playingfield as it would lower the advantage the PSP has drawing textured pixels.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Squeak said:
Why 2.5, if you can do it in 1 + base texture ?
There is a paper that will be published soon about DOT3 bump-mapping on PlayStation 2 (normal-mapping too) in 1 pass without re-normalization of the normals.
No, it was not written by me
.One pass?! Surely you are not talking about regular CLUT based bump mapping? Could you explain how it works (sorry, I know this is getting of topic)?Panajev2001a said:Why 2.5, if you can do it in 1 + base texture ?
There is a paper that will be published soon about DOT3 bump-mapping on PlayStation 2 (normal-mapping too) in 1 pass without re-normalization of the normals.
No, it was not written by me
AFAICS that would mean that you can somehow "fool" the GS into perceiving an RGB(A?) texture as a monochromatic intensity texture, like it is usually done on other hardware?
Where can I read that paper when it is published?
cybamerc said:
I think LOD is very noticable in Project Gotham 2 too, for example. I remember on certain tracks (I think Sydney was one of them), how some billboards suddenly went from low-res texture to hi-res texture in an instant at a very defined distance. Move the car back a few meters, and it switched back to low-res again. Looked very strange.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
There is a problem regarding the technique: a Texture Wrap function I heard from the guy working on it.
The technique published on the paper will contain (public doman paper) two versions:
2 passes version without re-normalization (1 pass worked, but not completely in a reliable way). This should mean 3 passes including the base texture pass, but I will ask him about it.
4 passes version with re-normalization.
As soon as the author finishes proof-reading it I will post the link here.
The technique published on the paper will contain (public doman paper) two versions:
2 passes version without re-normalization (1 pass worked, but not completely in a reliable way). This should mean 3 passes including the base texture pass, but I will ask him about it.
4 passes version with re-normalization.
As soon as the author finishes proof-reading it I will post the link here.
krypt0nian
Banned
AS long as we get it by US launch I am a happy guy!
Gek54 said:
WTS...I was pumping up the XBox version before PS2 even got a sniff of it. Hell, I've been loving the series ever since playing the demo on my old P133. Aside from Pro Race Driver, it's been a quality racing series.
sp0rsk said:
Looking at who said those words, I doubt it. :lol
Forsete said:
Pure nonsense...the aspect of actually racing against opponents is handled as well as any console racer on the market, and the variety of racing types is unmatched.
MGS2SX isn't a really good example though, it being a low priority outsourced port. It doesn't have to do with any deficincy in the Xbox as much as the resources given to it... it'd be like comparing PS2's capabilities as a machine based off it's port of Wreckless. Neither case is at all appropriate when talking the potential of GT4 PSP, being done by the same exact team as the console version.Panajev2001a said: