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Guess who's winning the 'culture war'

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/u...&en=5519ede029c494c4&ei=5094&partner=homepage


Evangelicals Fear the Loss of Their Teenagers

Despite their packed megachurches, their political clout and their increasing visibility on the national stage, evangelical Christian leaders are warning one another that their teenagers are abandoning the faith in droves.


At an unusual series of leadership meetings in 44 cities this fall, more than 6,000 pastors are hearing dire forecasts from some of the biggest names in the conservative evangelical movement.

Their alarm has been stoked by a highly suspect claim that if current trends continue, only 4 percent of teenagers will be “Bible-believing Christians” as adults. That would be a sharp decline compared with 35 percent of the current generation of baby boomers, and before that, 65 percent of the World War II generation.

While some critics say the statistics are greatly exaggerated (one evangelical magazine for youth ministers dubbed it “the 4 percent panic attack”), there is widespread consensus among evangelical leaders that they risk losing their teenagers.

“I’m looking at the data,” said Ron Luce, who organized the meetings and founded Teen Mania, a 20-year-old youth ministry, “and we’ve become post-Christian America, like post-Christian Europe. We’ve been working as hard as we know how to work — everyone in youth ministry is working hard — but we’re losing.”

The board of the National Association of Evangelicals, an umbrella group representing 60 denominations and dozens of ministries, passed a resolution this year deploring “the epidemic of young people leaving the evangelical church.”

Among the leaders speaking at the meetings are Ted Haggard, president of the evangelical association; the Rev. Jerry Falwell; and nationally known preachers like Jack Hayford and Tommy Barnett.

Genuine alarm can be heard from Christian teenagers and youth pastors, who say they cannot compete against a pervasive culture of cynicism about religion, and the casual “hooking up” approach to sex so pervasive on MTV, on Web sites for teenagers and in hip-hop, rap and rock music. Divorced parents and dysfunctional families also lead some teenagers to avoid church entirely or to drift away.

Over and over in interviews, evangelical teenagers said they felt like a tiny, beleaguered minority in their schools and neighborhoods. They said they often felt alone in their struggles to live by their “Biblical values” by avoiding casual sex, risqué music and videos, Internet pornography, alcohol and drugs.

When Eric Soto, 18, transferred from a small charter school to a large public high school in Chicago, he said he was disappointed to find that an extracurricular Bible study attracted only five to eight students. “When we brought food, we thought we could get a better turnout,” he said. They got 12.

Chelsea Dunford, a 17-year old from Canton, Conn., said, “At school I don’t have a lot of friends who are Christians.”

Ms. Dunford spoke late last month as she and her small church youth group were about to join more than 3,400 teenagers in a sports arena at the University of Massachusetts in Amherst for a Christian youth extravaganza and rock concert called Acquire the Fire.

“A lot of my friends are self-proclaimed agnostics or atheists,” said Ms. Dunford, who wears a bracelet with a heart-shaped charm engraved with “tlw,” for “true love waits,” to remind herself of her pledge not to have premarital sex.

She said her friends were more prone to use profanity and party than she was, and added: “It’s scary sometimes. You get made fun of.”

To break the isolation and bolster the teenagers’ commitment to a conservative lifestyle, Mr. Luce has been organizing these stadium extravaganzas for 15 years. The event in Amherst was the first of 40 that Teen Mania is putting on between now and May, on a breakneck schedule that resembles a road trip for a major touring band. The “roadies” are 700 teenagers who have interned for a year at Teen Mania’s “Honor Academy” in Garden Valley, Tex.

More than two million teenagers have attended in the last 15 years, said Mr. Luce, a 45-year-old, mop-headed father of three with a master’s degree from the Graduate School of Business Administration at Harvard and the star power of an aging rock guitarist.

“That’s more than Paul McCartney has pulled in,” Mr. Luce asserted, before bounding onstage for the opening pyrotechnics and a prayer.

For the next two days, the teenagers in the arena pogoed to Christian bands, pledged to lead their friends to Christ and sang an anthem with the chorus, “We won’t be silent.” Hundreds streamed down the aisles for the altar call and knelt in front of the stage, some weeping openly as they prayed to give their lives to God.

The next morning, Mr. Luce led the crowd in an exercise in which they wrote on scraps of paper all the negative cultural influences, brand names, products and television shows that they planned to excise from their lives. Again they streamed down the aisles, this time to throw away the “cultural garbage.”

Trash cans filled with folded pieces of paper on which the teenagers had scribbled things like Ryan Seacrest, Louis Vuitton, “Gilmore Girls,” “Days of Our Lives,” Iron Maiden, Harry Potter, “need for a boyfriend” and “my perfect teeth obsession.” One had written in tiny letters: “fornication.”

Some teenagers threw away cigarette lighters, brand-name sweatshirts, Mardi Gras beads and CD’s — one titled “I’m a Hustla.”


“Lord Jesus,” Mr. Luce prayed into the microphone as the teenagers dropped their notes into the trash, “I strip off the identity of the world, and this morning I clothe myself with Christ, with his lifestyle. That’s what I want to be known for.”

Evangelical adults, like believers of every faith, fret about losing the next generation, said the Rev. David W. Key, director of Baptist Studies at the Candler School of Theology of Emory University, in Atlanta.

“The uniqueness of the evangelical situation is the fact that during the 80’s and 90’s you had the Reagan revolution that was growing the evangelical churches,” Mr. Key said.

Today, he said, the culture trivializes religion and normalizes secularism and liberal sexual mores.

The phenomenon may not be that young evangelicals are abandoning their faith, but that they are abandoning the institutional church, said Lauren Sandler, author of “Righteous: Dispatches from the Evangelical Youth Movement” (Viking, 2006). Ms. Sandler, who calls herself a secular liberal, said she found the movement frighteningly robust.

“This generation is not about church,” said Ms. Sandler, an editor at Salon.com. “They always say, ‘We take our faith outside the four walls.’ For a lot of young evangelicals, church is a rock festival, or a skate park or hanging out in someone’s basement.”

Contradicting the sense of isolation expressed by some evangelical teenagers, Ms. Sandler said, “I met plenty of kids who told me over and over that if you’re not Christian in your high school, you’re not cool — kids with Mohawks, with indie rock bands who feel peer pressure to be Christian.”

The reality is, when it comes to organizing youth, evangelical Christians are the envy of Roman Catholics, mainline Protestants and Jews, said Christian Smith, a professor of sociology at the University of Notre Dame, who specializes in the study of American evangelicals and surveyed teens for his book “Soul Searching: the Religious and Spiritual lives of American Teenagers” (Oxford, 2005).

Mr. Smith said he was skeptical about the 4 percent statistic. He said the figure was from a footnote in a book and was inconsistent with research he had conducted and reviewed, which has found that evangelical teenagers are more likely to remain involved with their faith than are mainline Protestants, Catholics, Jews and teenagers of almost every other religion.

“A lot of the goals I’m very supportive of,” Mr. Smith said of the new evangelical youth campaign, “but it just kills me that it’s framed in such apocalyptic terms that couldn’t possibly hold up under half a second of scrutiny. It’s just self-defeating.”

The 4 percent is cited in the book “The Bridger Generation” by Thom S. Rainer, a Southern Baptist and a former professor of ministry. Mr. Rainer said in an interview that it came from a poll he had commissioned, and that while he thought the methodology was reliable, the poll was 10 years old.

“I would have to, with integrity, say there has been no significant follow-up to see if the numbers are still valid,” Mr. Rainer said.

Mr. Luce seems weary of criticism that his message is overly alarmist. He said that a current poll by the well-known evangelical pollster George Barna found that 5 percent of teenagers were Bible-believing Christians. Some criticize Mr. Barna’s methodology, however, for defining “Bible-believing” so narrowly that it excludes most people who consider themselves Christians.

Mr. Luce responded: “If the 4 percent is true, or even the 5 percent, it’s an indictment of youth ministry. So certainly they’re going to want different data.”

Outside the arena in Amherst, the teenagers at Mr. Luce’s Acquire the Fire extravaganza mobbed the tables hawking T-shirts and CD’s stamped: “Branded by God.” Mr. Luce’s strategy is to replace MTV’s wares with those of an alternative Christian culture, so teenagers will link their identity to Christ and not to the latest flesh-baring pop star.

Apparently, the strategy can show results. In Chicago, Eric Soto said he returned from a stadium event in Detroit in the spring to find that other teenagers in the hallways were also wearing “Acquire the Fire” T-shirts.

“You were there? You’re a Christian?” he said the young people would say to one another. “The fire doesn’t die once you leave the stadium. But it’s a challenge to keep it burning.”
 

bjork

Member
they need to give jesus a heel turn

can you imagine the last supper, but they all have nWo shirts?

I'd go to church all the time

4 lyfe
 

Odysseus

Banned
I've heard many of the same statistics and I can look around and know it's true: secularists are far and away winning the culture war. It's not even close. And, as a Christian, I find it depressing.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
The whole thing reeks of creating another threat to their population. They've got a ten year old bullshit study to go on, and suddenly they're amassing people to protect the hive and brainwash kids. It's all a cynical ploy. If it's not this, it's something else. They're never happy unless they think everyone else is out to get them.

*Which isn't to say their numbers aren't dropping with youths, but not at such a drastic rate.
 

kablooey

Member
Trash cans filled with folded pieces of paper on which the teenagers had scribbled things like Ryan Seacrest, Louis Vuitton, “Gilmore Girls,” “Days of Our Lives,” Iron Maiden, Harry Potter, “need for a boyfriend” and “my perfect teeth obsession.” One had written in tiny letters: “fornication.”

:lol :lol :lol

You've got to be kidding me. No ****ing wonder they're losing the "culture war".
 

AntoneM

Member
Odysseus said:
I've heard many of the same statistics and I can look around and know it's true: secularists are far and away winning the culture war. It's not even close. And, as a Christian, I find it depressing.

well, that just means more space in heaven for you saved people.

as for me, I'm gonna rock out now because I'm not going anywhere when I die.
 

Triumph

Banned
*masturbates furiously*

Wonderful news. Soon I will be able to open up my Homobortion Parlor and retire like a good secular humanist.
 
Trash cans filled with folded pieces of paper on which the teenagers had scribbled things like Ryan Seacrest, Louis Vuitton, “Gilmore Girls,” “Days of Our Lives,” Iron Maiden, Harry Potter, “need for a boyfriend” and “my perfect teeth obsession.” One had written in tiny letters: “fornication.”
Ridiculous. :lol
 
as with most things, it's the fear of losing control and power. Odd specially since Christianity as a whole is not about that. (wasn't originally).
 
VictimOfGrief said:
as with most things, it's the fear of losing control and power. Odd specially since Christianity as a whole is not about that. (wasn't originally).
Wait, I thought the whole purpose of the Christian church originally was to gain power.
 
I've never understood the whole "we're being persecuted" complex some Christians seem to have. Isn't like 1/3 of the entire world population Christian? Isn't the majority of the US Christian? It's like a male WASP complaining about America being racist against them. Wha?

But what do I know, I'm just a black atheist :lol
 

bjork

Member
the more I think about nWo Jesus, the cooler it sounds.

JESUS HIT MOSES WITH THE CROSS! GOD AS MY WITNESS HE'S BROKEN IN HALF!
 
I highly doubt that 4% thing - it's much higher. I have seen young relatives 'fall away' from a church like this, but I've also seen more relatives and friends that have kept the same faith and attitude for many years. The ways these places reach kids nowadays, it's hard NOT to stay with it. Teenagers like to rebel a lot though, no matter what they're taught, so that's why they feel the need to 'instill' faith at an ever younger age.

They're just using that low percentage to rally for more help and fervor in the base, which I see as a VERY bad thing. Desperate people who think the end times are now & that they're losing the souls of loved ones to Satan can become very dangerous, since they feel they have nothing to lose. I know a lot of people who think like this. And I live in blue state, and there are churches like this around me that have thousands of people attend.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
soul creator said:
I've never understood the whole "we're being persecuted" complex some Christians seem to have. Isn't like 1/3 of the entire world population Christian? Isn't the majority of the US Christian? It's like a male WASP complaining about America being racist against them. Wha?

But what do I know, I'm just a black atheist :lol

The persecution complex makes even less sense in light of Christian beliefs. Why do you care if everyone else in the world doesn't believe in your deity? It's all part of "God's plan", after all, and you can believe whatever you want.

And from the article the worst persecution by non-Christians anyone complained about was being teased in school for being a stick-in-the-mud. Compare that to the persecution BY Christians over history.
 

Verano

Reads Ace as Lace. May God have mercy on their soul
soul creator said:
But what do I know, I'm just a black atheist :lol

Holy shit!
:O

Never knew there were black atheist among the GAF.

Hip-hop Jesus..
That would rule!
 

Bulla564

Banned
Do not fear my dear bible-thumping conservatives... you have O'Reilly on your side.

OReilly_book_cvr_lrg.jpg
 

Odysseus

Banned
soul creator said:
I've never understood the whole "we're being persecuted" complex some Christians seem to have. Isn't like 1/3 of the entire world population Christian? Isn't the majority of the US Christian? It's like a male WASP complaining about America being racist against them. Wha?

But what do I know, I'm just a black atheist :lol

I know this is the internet, but look around. Christians are mocked quite liberally on this forum and many others, and it's not too hard to imagine the same thing going on to various degrees out in the real world. Sure, it's not the historical persecution that turned many Christians in the young church into martyrs, and it doesn't rival the obstacles that many Christians have to face in other nations today, but society certainly isn't friendly to Christian values and belief structures.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
We'd be more civil if Christians weren't taking over the government and legislating their religious doctrines.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Odysseus said:
I know this is the internet, but look around. Christians are mocked quite liberally on this forum and many others, and it's not too hard to imagine the same thing going on to various degrees out in the real world. Sure, it's not the historical persecution that turned many Christians in the young church into martyrs, and it doesn't rival the obstacles that many Christians have to face in other nations today, but society certainly isn't friendly to Christian values and belief structures.

People are mocked for lots of reasons all the time. I'm not sure why that would translate into a Christian feeling "persecuted". And what do you mean by society not being "friendly" to Christianity? As far as I can tell Christians can practice whatever they want with complete freedom, as long as they don't impose their faith on others.
 
Odysseus said:
I know this is the internet, but look around. Christians are mocked quite liberally on this forum and many others, and it's not too hard to imagine the same thing going on to various degrees out in the real world. Sure, it's not the historical persecution that turned many Christians in the young church into martyrs, and it doesn't rival the obstacles that many Christians have to face in other nations today, but society certainly isn't friendly to Christian values and belief structures.

eh, I'd hardly call silly jokes on an internet forum "persecution". And some people are assholes to other people regardless, but that's not a "christian persecution" thing. It's an asshole thing.

And what are the Christian values and belief structures that society isn't friendly to? Some poll will show 70-80% of the population as a Christian of some sort, but then you have situations like these where some subset feels they're being persecuted...

In that case, whose Christianity should we actually follow? What are the "right" Christian values and belief structures? Someone help this poor atheist understand. It's hard to understand your religion when its own practictioners can't even agree on it :D
 
If I was to write a letter to the fundies in that article, it would be something like:

How naive to think that they can beat or outwit one of the the most assimilating, virulent forces ever created-American popular culture. So many other cultures that have come in contact and have been changed radically by exposure to American values, beliefs, and prosperity in the last 40-50 years. Did you really think that your young people living in this country would also not be wooed and seduced by it in greater and greater numbers, given the more ever more powerful tools that exist to propogate it?

In the end, your churches will be full of elderly and the your pews will run empty except on Easter and Christmas, just often enough to remind you of the American Christendom that you dreamed of so long ago.

Regards,
Fragamemnon

Seriously though, our culture is a predator and there's no way that easy prey like teenage Christians won't get their faith slaughtered by it, given its immediate rewards and the modern acceptance of godlessness, especially once you get away and get off to college and urban areas (where you get your job after college).
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Dan said:
We'd be more civil if Christians weren't taking over the government and legislating their religious doctrines.
Seriously. There are reasons christianity is mocked and "attacked" a lot more than other religions that seem just as ridiculous to secularists. Keep your business to your damn self, stop trying to impose your views and doctrines on everyone and our government, and maybe you won't find christians as such a target for mocking. When will Xians realize this? You have armies of people out there trying to convert teenagers with bible quotes and the promise of "heavenly salvation" and whining when it doesn't work, and you wonder why we mock you? You're asking for it.

(of course by "you" I don't necessarily mean you, but you know who you are out there)
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Christian "persecution" in the US is one of the silliest memes.

How many churches are there, compared to houses of worship for all other denominations? How many Christian Senators, representatives, cabinet-level secretaries in the federal government? Governors? CEOs? Schools? How many times is Jesus on the cover of Time?

Compared to blacks, latinos, gays and lesbians, Muslims, poor people, etc. is it anywhere near realistic to say Christians are an oppressed group?

Yeah, Christians get a lot of ridicule. Dan's post is right, though. If you want people to stop making fun of your belief system, stop people from trying to enforce that belief system on others.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
These are the same idiots that are more worried about gay dudes and evolution than they are about Foreign Policy and fair taxes. I don't really fault them though, they've just been brainwashed since they were children.

Makes you wonder though, will Ryan Seacrest lead the blind to the light? Now there's a thought.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
There are Christians and then there are "Christians." The latter judge, mock and demonize homosexual behavior; they believe that sex before marriage is a harbinger of moral decline; they think evolution is still a theory; hold dear to the idea that "intelligent design" is completely different than creationism.

And worst of all they think that an allegedly religious, moral President is justified in being a warmonger.

A true Christian is none of those things, knows that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, and holds steadfast to that damned line in the Bible that should probably be stamped on the cover of that old Book: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." It's those claiming to be Christian and are anything but that are persecuted in this country, not the ones who have a firm grasp of the lessons the religion tries to teach.
 
The evangelical persecution complex is a necessary (and compeltely artificial) construct that exists to better isolate the Christian and their fellowship from ther rest world's influences. If you can convince someone that the world is against them and that their fellow evangelicals are the only people they can trust, creating the necessary reality bubble required for intesive mental conditioning and programming is much easier.

I'm hopeful that when I'm in my 50s I can try running for something like school board or city council in a far-left town or municipality. It'll still be a real stretch, even with political connections, since I wouldn't choose to hide my godlessness nor could I hide the fact that I have no children. No family + no god = "omg he caught the gay!" or worse to most people.
 

Vieo

Member
Maybe religion is starting to go the way of the belief "the world is flat". It's getting veeeeery difficult to ignore what science has uncovered in the last century or two as it contradicts the Bible.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Vieo said:
Maybe religion is starting to go the way of the belief "the world is flat". It's getting veeeeery difficult to ignore what science has uncovered in the last century or two as it contradicts the Bible.

I kinda disagree with that.

Those thinking one way will see it as confirmation of metaphors and analogies from mistranslated myths of nomadic desert shepard tribes,

While others might see it as proof that the Bible is wrong because they've been taking it literally the whole time.


Hmm.
 
Vieo said:
Maybe religion is starting to go the way of the belief "the world is flat". It's getting veeeeery difficult to ignore what science has uncovered in the last century or two as it contradicts the Bible.

kinda as PantherLotus was alluding to, you'll just get more people saying "well duh, it wasn't supposed to be literal anyway!"

It is kinda funny that 100 years ago, Christians believed literally in a lot of things that modern Christians now think is "myth" or "allegorical" or "just from a different time, not meant to be taken literally".

It seems to almost imply that Christianity is simply a social construct, subject to different societal forces and human whims, constantly changing to fit the society it exists in, rather than some obvious, unchanging truth that is handed down from an all powerful being. Hurm.
 

Monk

Banned
PantherLotus said:
I kinda disagree with that.

Those thinking one way will see it as confirmation of metaphors and analogies from mistranslated myths of nomadic desert shepard tribes,

While others might see it as proof that the Bible is wrong because they've been taking it literally the whole time.


Hmm.

Technically the bible doesnt say how old the world is. Infact between the first two versus many bible scholars believe is where the prehistoric age existed.



kinda as PantherLotus was alluding to, you'll just get more people saying "well duh, it wasn't supposed to be literal anyway!"

It is kinda funny that 100 years ago, Christians believed literally in a lot of things that modern Christians now think is "myth" or "allegorical" or "just from a different time, not meant to be taken literally".

It seems to almost imply that Christianity is simply a social construct, subject to different societal forces and human whims, constantly changing to fit the society it exists in, rather than some obvious, unchanging truth that is handed down from an all powerful being. Hurm.

Catholic =/= christian, so many dogma that just dont agree with a bible that is with the catholic religion. The text has always stayed the same throughout the years. Just that people's interpretations are different.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Monk said:
Technically the bible doesnt say how old the world is. Infact between the first two versus many bible scholars believe is where the prehistoric age existed.
I hardly think someone that retcons whole geologic time periods into the space between one verse and another deserves to be called a scholar of anything.

The text has always stayed the same throughout the years. Just that people's interpretations are different.
The text of the Bible has remained the same throughout the years? That's a joke, right? It most certainly has not.
 

J2 Cool

Member
xsarien said:
There are Christians and then there are "Christians." The latter judge, mock and demonize homosexual behavior; they believe that sex before marriage is a harbinger of moral decline; they think evolution is still a theory; hold dear to the idea that "intelligent design" is completely different than creationism.

And worst of all they think that an allegedly religious, moral President is justified in being a warmonger.

A true Christian is none of those things, knows that the Bible shouldn't be taken literally, and holds steadfast to that damned line in the Bible that should probably be stamped on the cover of that old Book: "Judge not, lest ye be judged." It's those claiming to be Christian and are anything but that are persecuted in this country, not the ones who have a firm grasp of the lessons the religion tries to teach.

My favorite post in this thread. There's definitely a fear of living in today's society for the Christians trying to create a strict rulebook for life, when it throws so many twists and turns. And there's a real tormentation over trying to make it all comprehensible for themselves and others. Which really becomes confusing, loving others.

Christians just the same do care about other people. Friends, family, etc. And the route taken to show it is completely unmarked and unique to any Christian. A challenge really. Some take means to an end stupidly, and force issues. Judge. Completely against principles they try to preach and bring followers to. People look and see this attempt of bringing them in to Christianity as uglyness.

You can't attract someone in, by using fear and forcefulness. It's not justified and not a success. Setting a mirror of a "Christian" in front of others, simply sets an example of what they can become in being a Christian. Nobody wants to be that. This method's been used for decades now to bring followers to the church, and if anything it has been severly harmful to the religion. Pressing harder in doing the same will only destruct it altogether.

Finding the roots of such a branched religion is where I think Christianity needs to go. Not in setting us forcibly back to 1 A.D. but finding humbleness again. The world's changed and will continue to change regardless. Stories of Jesus always explain a purity in their telling. A simplicity really - love, understanding, forgiveness. It's insane to see something like that manifest itself into the exact opposite taught by the book. I think the Christian church really needs to look inward as to why they're losing "faith", rather than cynically outward as they've done for so long.
 
D

Deleted member 1235

Unconfirmed Member
Suburban Cowboy said:
Down with religion! Faith is for the ignorant! Religion is the cause of evil


/liberal

:lol

Down with evangelical christians, I definately would go that far.
 

Link1110

Member
Maybe the teenagers are realizing just how blasphemous their religion is. Let's see, they support a war, support the rich over the poor, support oppression of certain children of God just because of things that aren't choices (Gays,) support TORTURING other people.

What about this religion is Christian again (Other than their lip service to the Bible?)
 

Monk

Banned
Dan said:
I hardly think someone that retcons whole geologic time periods into the space between one verse and another deserves to be called a scholar of anything.

There is good amount of reason to think that there was a period of time between those verses. But i cant be bothered arguning it with you, it requires some long study on the bible. My pastor talks about this and there are many born again tv evangelists that talk about it.


The text of the Bible has remained the same throughout the years? That's a joke, right? It most certainly has not.

The dead sea scrolls remain unchaged, it is the translations that have changed trying to come closer to the original words of the dead sea scrolls. Of course there are versions of the bible that have their own agendas.
 

Stele

Holds a little red book
Vieo said:
Maybe religion is starting to go the way of the belief "the world is flat". It's getting veeeeery difficult to ignore what science has uncovered in the last century or two as it contradicts the Bible.
I think religion is only for the poor and oppressed. It serves as an anesthetic in that context. For the rich people who are religious, it's like owning a sports team or investing in a hedge fund. You do it for shits and giggles.
 

Link1110

Member
Monk said:
The dead sea scrolls remain unchaged, it is the translations that have changed trying to come closer to the original words of the dead sea scrolls. Of course there are versions of the bible that have their own agendas.

"Theiw own agendas...." None more amusing than the one where the translators sued for someone putting it online. Geez, try READING what you're translating, especially the parts about greed.
 
I dunno. I deliver pizza to this Church every now and then and it looks pretty cool.
They have X360s, arcade games, pizza parties every Sunday, Christian sluts, etc.

Course I'm 25 now so it doesn't do me any good. :(
Say what you want but Church is 10x cooler than it was when I was young.

That doesn't mean it's cool, it just means it was 10x cooler than it was, which doesn't mean cool, oh nevermind.
 
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