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Guess who's winning the 'culture war'
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Beer Monkey
Member
Odysseus said:
You must live in a different America than I do. I work for a 100+ person medium-sized business where people post their Jesus claptrap all over their cubes and the lunchroom (and even 'witness' to people on break time), and the atheists are totally closeted because people of no faith are really looked down on and it would affect our careers here.
And it's been that way the vast majority of places that I've worked, including one multinational with tens of thousands of employees, and also at several Fortune 100 companies for which I've contracted. You don't wear your atheism on your sleeve in the US of A, but you can certainly wear your Christianity.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
Maxwell House said:
Chrisianity existed long before the establishment of the Church.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Obviously most of you didn't read the article before breaking out your sanctimonious anti-religion screeds. It's not about anti-Christian persecution at all, it's about the difficulties experienced by people who still want to raise children according to traditional morality. And for the purposes of raising a child, it does matter what society at large is exposed to and finds important unless you are Amish and completely isolated from popular culture.
While this article focuses on Evangelical Christians (and in the process makes many of you see red--or is that blue?--and instinctively start bashing Bush), the problem is equally felt by some non-Christian religious believers and immigrants. Fragammemnon is right about the virulent nature of American popular culture. Everbody who mocks the "they hate us for our freedom" line should think about it.
While this article focuses on Evangelical Christians (and in the process makes many of you see red--or is that blue?--and instinctively start bashing Bush), the problem is equally felt by some non-Christian religious believers and immigrants. Fragammemnon is right about the virulent nature of American popular culture. Everbody who mocks the "they hate us for our freedom" line should think about it.
"...the Christian church..."AdmiralViscen said:
Thank you for making this point. Christians can moan and bitch all they want about being "persecuted" and having to hide their faith in public, but atheists are really the ones who put themselves at risk (in the professional world at least) for coming out for coming out with their (non)beliefs.
PepsimanVsJoe said:I dunno. I deliver pizza to this Church every now and then and it looks pretty cool.
They have X360s, arcade games, pizza parties every Sunday, Christian sluts, etc.
Course I'm 25 now so it doesn't do me any good.
Say what you want but Church is 10x cooler than it was when I was young.
That doesn't mean it's cool, it just means it was 10x cooler than it was, which doesn't mean cool, oh nevermind.
So basically, you would've been totally gay for Jesus. . .if there was a 360 in the deal? MS has got to try to fit this into a marketing campaign.
PepsimanVsJoe
Member
White Man said:
Whoa now I don't know about that. But anything's better than sitting around for several hours listening to some guy talk about uninteresting stuff.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Personally I think that's sad, because I've seen this problem brewing for more than a decade. I was homeschooled from 3rd grade to 9th grade, and during that time I also played bastketball at a Christian private school. To this day I'm still in contact with many of these people.
IMO some of the article is pure bullshit; the exact percents...wtf. As if they know exactly who isn't going to be a Christian in the future. They also fail to take into account the mere idea of teenage angst. Even Christians go through that, and eventuall they grow up. We saw this happen in the 80's when MTV first came out and teen media became more...secular. Well now the Christian kids who were "seduced" by Madonna and Van Halen are teaching Bible class and pastoring.
Back on topic: this problem has nothing to do with the media's superior influence over kids, it has to do with parents. I'm not convinced that many of you, or the writers of this article, realize how fanatical many Christian parents are towards the media. All secular movies, music, books, and ideas are demonized by the most fundemental Christian parents.
I remember a few weeks after Spiderman first came out; I went to see it with my parents, and I was blown away by the movie. Well the next day at basketball practice I told my friends about it. Some of them told me they planned on seeing it soon, but others had a different answer. They couldn't see the movie because it had "sex" in it. When I asked them to explain this (considering Spiderman doesn't feature any "sex" scenes), they mentioned the scene where Spiderman kisses Mary Jane upside down. That one scene dirtied the entire movie, according to their parents. It was a "sinful" movie. We all know Spiderman covers many moral issues in a spectacular way ("with great power comes great responsibility..."); most people, whether Christian or non-Christian, find those morals to be quite positive. Yet these people could not watch the movie because of a kiss scene.
This one example sums up the problem that has been created by these Christian parents. They have raised their children to see the world in a very black/white view. Something is either all good, or all bad. So things like Spiderman are no different sex outside marriage, or abortion, etc. I hope you see where I'm going now. This type of mindset is brewed at a young age, and it's re-inforced throughout childhood. But when this person gets older and more independant - during the teenage years - this meticulously structured mental barrier begins to crumble. When that teen sees Spiderman for himself, perhaps at a friends house or in a college dorm, and sees how tame the movie is, what happens mentally? Subconsciencely? This is a person who has been told his entire life that petty things are demonic and sinful; when he realizes that's not the case, what happens? Rebellion. I see nothing wrong with Spiderman. If there's nothing wrong with Spiderman...
Once that barrier is broken loose, the repression ends and the experimentation starts. This person's entire look on morals has been flipped upside down, and now they start looking into things themselves, trying to see if they're really "that bad". I've seen this happen for more than a decade. The kid I talked about earlier who couldn't watch Spiderman now? Well, he's grown up now, and almost unrecognizable. He smokes, he drinks, he parties, etc. This has happened to many of my friends from that school. Once they were given freedom, they endulged at every oppurtunity in order to "make up" for lost time if you will. I remember having a conversation with one of them.
Josh: Hey man, I just heard this awesome song
Phoenix: Really..
Josh: Yeah man, it's pretty cool. It's called Brenda's Got a Baby by Tupac
Phoenix: That's a good song
Josh: Yeah, it has a great moral message to it as well. Is it really that different than the shit we hear in Bible class? *laughs*
If you were raised to believe all secular music was demonic, and then you heard that song or any other song that deals with social issues, your previous way of thinking would be altered. And this is what's happening to the teenagers of the Christian movement. They are beginning to think for themselves finally as teenagers, and they are also rebelling against their parents. There have been studies that suggest that kids who drink before going to college are less likely to binge drink and drink heavily (and dangerously) than kids who were never exposed to alcohol. I feel this is exactly what's going on in the current Christian teen demograpy. And the root of that problem goes directly to the parents.
IMO some of the article is pure bullshit; the exact percents...wtf. As if they know exactly who isn't going to be a Christian in the future. They also fail to take into account the mere idea of teenage angst. Even Christians go through that, and eventuall they grow up. We saw this happen in the 80's when MTV first came out and teen media became more...secular. Well now the Christian kids who were "seduced" by Madonna and Van Halen are teaching Bible class and pastoring.
Back on topic: this problem has nothing to do with the media's superior influence over kids, it has to do with parents. I'm not convinced that many of you, or the writers of this article, realize how fanatical many Christian parents are towards the media. All secular movies, music, books, and ideas are demonized by the most fundemental Christian parents.
I remember a few weeks after Spiderman first came out; I went to see it with my parents, and I was blown away by the movie. Well the next day at basketball practice I told my friends about it. Some of them told me they planned on seeing it soon, but others had a different answer. They couldn't see the movie because it had "sex" in it. When I asked them to explain this (considering Spiderman doesn't feature any "sex" scenes), they mentioned the scene where Spiderman kisses Mary Jane upside down. That one scene dirtied the entire movie, according to their parents. It was a "sinful" movie. We all know Spiderman covers many moral issues in a spectacular way ("with great power comes great responsibility..."); most people, whether Christian or non-Christian, find those morals to be quite positive. Yet these people could not watch the movie because of a kiss scene.
This one example sums up the problem that has been created by these Christian parents. They have raised their children to see the world in a very black/white view. Something is either all good, or all bad. So things like Spiderman are no different sex outside marriage, or abortion, etc. I hope you see where I'm going now. This type of mindset is brewed at a young age, and it's re-inforced throughout childhood. But when this person gets older and more independant - during the teenage years - this meticulously structured mental barrier begins to crumble. When that teen sees Spiderman for himself, perhaps at a friends house or in a college dorm, and sees how tame the movie is, what happens mentally? Subconsciencely? This is a person who has been told his entire life that petty things are demonic and sinful; when he realizes that's not the case, what happens? Rebellion. I see nothing wrong with Spiderman. If there's nothing wrong with Spiderman...
Once that barrier is broken loose, the repression ends and the experimentation starts. This person's entire look on morals has been flipped upside down, and now they start looking into things themselves, trying to see if they're really "that bad". I've seen this happen for more than a decade. The kid I talked about earlier who couldn't watch Spiderman now? Well, he's grown up now, and almost unrecognizable. He smokes, he drinks, he parties, etc. This has happened to many of my friends from that school. Once they were given freedom, they endulged at every oppurtunity in order to "make up" for lost time if you will. I remember having a conversation with one of them.
Josh: Hey man, I just heard this awesome song
Phoenix: Really..
Josh: Yeah man, it's pretty cool. It's called Brenda's Got a Baby by Tupac
Phoenix: That's a good song
Josh: Yeah, it has a great moral message to it as well. Is it really that different than the shit we hear in Bible class? *laughs*
If you were raised to believe all secular music was demonic, and then you heard that song or any other song that deals with social issues, your previous way of thinking would be altered. And this is what's happening to the teenagers of the Christian movement. They are beginning to think for themselves finally as teenagers, and they are also rebelling against their parents. There have been studies that suggest that kids who drink before going to college are less likely to binge drink and drink heavily (and dangerously) than kids who were never exposed to alcohol. I feel this is exactly what's going on in the current Christian teen demograpy. And the root of that problem goes directly to the parents.
PhoenixDark
Banned
demon said:
Because that helped me understand a lot of things better. It also sucked. It's directly related to this issue
Wollan said:
People say this but do they really understand what that would mean. For one who the hell would help the homeless and needy. A majority of help given to these people are from people who are religious. Cause the government sure as hell is going to do it.
Nothing wrong with hating Evangelicals though. I don't blame you, I do and even a lot of Christians do.
Also hating Christians because of Evangelicals is about as bad as hating people because of Islamic belief because of terrorists. In other words stupid and judgemental.
PhoenixDark
Banned
White Man said:
Did you pay attention to the entire thing? It explains the root of this problem (teens leaving the Christian camp in droves), which has to do with fundemental parents. Homeschooling is a pretty Christian based thing. I went through the exact same process
Link1110
Member
Seee? This is what fanatics do to religion. Terrorists do it to Islam, zionists do it to Judaeism, and evangelicals do it to christanity. These people bastardize their respective religions to the point of extreme blasphemy. You shouldn't judge all christians as evangelicals any more than we should jail all italians for being involved with the mafia.
WrathOfOtaibah
Banned
Yes but lets put everything in perspective here:
Christian fundies has been growing since the 1970s. They want the United States to become a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy, not a Republic. Keeping in mind that today, Fundamentalist Christianity is basically a vitriolic hatred of gays, abortion, and then on occasion, they give lip service to Jesus.
The Bush administration has become the most fundamentalist Christian administration on record. Yet they are still whining about oppressed they are. Fundies basically want the country ran their way and are determined to spend what ever amount of money possible to turn it that way. These churches are rich because they attempt to squeeze every penny out of these people. If you take down a cross at a school, it is a sign that Christianity is being attacked. Whatever.
This statistic is bullshit because teenagers will rebel at their age. Especially in something so totalitarian as Christian Fundamentalism, rebelling will be especially ripe. What are the odds that the girl who was moved to tears in Jesus Camp will have sex every day as a teenager? Pretty good. The wildest kids I know in High School were those from the Christian households. A few of them dropped out of school.
Yet after this and college, they will decide whether or not to return. Which is why the statistic is BS. It probably will not disclose the rebellious nature of teenager and how many come back. Its just easier to scare people by saying they will rebel and never come back. Which is just fine with me but their target audience will not rest easy.
Christian fundies has been growing since the 1970s. They want the United States to become a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy, not a Republic. Keeping in mind that today, Fundamentalist Christianity is basically a vitriolic hatred of gays, abortion, and then on occasion, they give lip service to Jesus.
The Bush administration has become the most fundamentalist Christian administration on record. Yet they are still whining about oppressed they are. Fundies basically want the country ran their way and are determined to spend what ever amount of money possible to turn it that way. These churches are rich because they attempt to squeeze every penny out of these people. If you take down a cross at a school, it is a sign that Christianity is being attacked. Whatever.
This statistic is bullshit because teenagers will rebel at their age. Especially in something so totalitarian as Christian Fundamentalism, rebelling will be especially ripe. What are the odds that the girl who was moved to tears in Jesus Camp will have sex every day as a teenager? Pretty good. The wildest kids I know in High School were those from the Christian households. A few of them dropped out of school.
Yet after this and college, they will decide whether or not to return. Which is why the statistic is BS. It probably will not disclose the rebellious nature of teenager and how many come back. Its just easier to scare people by saying they will rebel and never come back. Which is just fine with me but their target audience will not rest easy.
PhoenixDark said:
Yes, and I read it again after I read this post in case I missed something. And no, the story still has the same value if the homeschooling bit was removed. Would it have been any less meaningful if it was either of the following two:
or
The home schooling bit is a superfluous detail. And home schooling isn't near exclusively a christian thing.
He Wants Chalupas
Banned
:lol Hollywood Hay Zeus, awesome.bjork said:
Religion is too sweeeeeet
Not to mention that no matter how much they "lose their way", the faith has taught them they can just come back and everything will be hunky-dory. That's a pretty big loophole that leads to some laughably contradictory values. Some of the most devout and uptight current christians I've met were some big-time hell-raisers in hs/college. "Do as I say, not as I do..."PhoenixDark said:
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
This is the problem, their idea of what it means to be "bible-believing" and leaving no room for disagreement or thoughtful exchange. They want kids to sit down, eat up everything they're told, not think about it and grow up to become their parents. If someone has a disagreement, do they want to thoughtfully discuss it and actually consider their opinion? No, and most of them don't even know how to discuss things rationally and view a conversation with higher criticism to know where people are coming from. Thing is, that's not just the adults, but it's the teens also aren't even fully sure how or why they disagree.
I'm very serious about following Jesus, but a lot of churches would disqualify me from being a "bible-beliving christian" or possibly even a christian at all with my openness to certain theological possibilities. And you know what? Where I'm at right now is something that would certainly be very difficult for anyone who gets here. You don't have the outright acceptance of the evangelicals OR the secular. If you know your stuff then it's a constant battle to bring understanding, reason, tolerance and openness despite disagreement into the picture. If you don't know your stuff you'll be lambasted both ways. And if you are a teen in the latter, you might be strongly pressured to throw away all notions of spirituality and morality that you received from the christian worldview, but there is actually a lot of value to be found there.
I don't know, it's all very odd for a person like me. Christians I get along best with are either highly intellectual people within a mainline denomination, like a couple presbyterian and episcopal friends of mine, or a very select few from this "emerging chruch" phenomenon that are taking it as more than novelty or an excuse to believe what they want without thinking. Then the people I get along with second best are actually from other religions, I guess since the expectation of different views is already there so the approach is as it should be.
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Surely there is some stuff in our culture that is garbage, that it could be healthy to replace with something better, but where is the discernment in this? Where is there any teaching of how to think morally and work out life values? Where are the healthy things and practices they are going to replace it with, as surely simply reading your bible and praying isn't enough to fill one's entire life? I assume they want the kids to switch it to christian cultural garbage? Plastic smiles and shining white blindfolds to the realities of life's difficulty? This isn't the gospel, it is exchanging Jesus and his teachings about a real spirituality before God and dealing with real problems in humanity for a religious opiate. That's disgusting and hypocritical.
PhoenixDark
Banned
White Man said:
I brought up homeschooling to emphasize that I've been around these people for a long time. The vast majority of homeschool families are Christian; not all, but most. Many of my homeschooled friends are in the same boat as the ones who went to the Christian school; they all have fanatical parents. I thought that would be pretty clear, but meh I should have been more detailed.
I grew up using A Beka books and being taught Clinton ruined the country's morals and that rock music/drug use/atheists caused us to lose Vietnam. These books are used in Christian schools across the country. My brothers still use them. So yeah, I've seen this brewing problem on a grassroots level lol
Link
The Autumn Wind
This right here is why these people get made fun of all the time. They are so out of touch with reality that they think any and everything is going to lead their children down the "path of sin." If they had their way, we'd all grow up doing nothing but reading the bible in a room with nothing but a bed and a rosary.
Ironically enough, I can bet that kids raised that way turn out way more screwed up and socially awkward than kids who are "damning" themselves by watching Harry Potter and owning a Louis Vuitton handbag.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Link said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about:lol
These kids are being set up to fail by their parents, and Sunday School teachers
It's like you're reading my mind.Dice said:
As I said before so much of evangelical christianity has become about exclusion, not only excluding gays ands liberals, but even excluding other chrisitians who might not hold the same opinions. It is hardly surprising that now they are being themselves excluded.
There's a good book called, "Why Christianity must change or die." Written by a Bishiop That addresses this pretty well. And I truly hold that for Christianity to grow in the future, it must change, because this fundie brand we got going now isn't going to do it.
Dragona Akehi
Retired
Link said:
Those are only for those godforsaken catholics. IDOLATRY! HEATHENS! SINNERS!
PhoenixDark
Banned
Exactly.ronito said:
I've gotten in heated discussions with Christian parents over this. I've told them "God gave you a brain so you could think for yourself; he sent his son to die for you and gave you the choice to believe in him or not, and you should give your children that same level of respect." Needless to say, they don't like me very much:lol
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Guileless said:
Basically, parents want to be able to control everything a child experiences so they can indoctrinate them with their own belief system? I think it's GOOD that it's getting harder to do that. Children should be exposed to all kinds of information, not brainwashed with one version of reality, and they should be able to make up their own minds as they grow older.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
"Rend...slaughter...DEVOUR your enemies!"
"Culture War". Yeesh; people getting all jingo about their side and everything.
"Culture War". Yeesh; people getting all jingo about their side and everything.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Chairman Yang said:
You are using pejoratives to describe religion--"control" and "brainwashing" and "indoctrination." Evangelical Christians (among others) believe that popular culture is doing the same thing and would apply the same terminology. Popular culture promotes consumerism and personal gratification as ends in themselves. Some people don't believe that is healthy in the long term regardless of how attractive it is in the short term, and that children aren't equipped to place what they see in context in order to make an informed choice or "make up their minds" as you put it.
That said, focusing only on sex is childish and can make Evangelicals sound fairly ridiculous. If they, or those who criticize them, just reduce it to that when you look at what is a complex problem you aren't being honest.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Guileless said:
There's a key difference between the Christian parent approach and the "popular culture" thing, which is why one is brainwashing and one isn't.
That is, Christian parents want the child's ONLY exposure to be to Christian values. Popular culture dictates no such thing. If people want to watch the sinful Spiderman, then go home and read the Bible, they can absorb both kinds of information and make their own decisions based on multiple viewpoints.
Now you say that children aren't equipped to make informed choices. I agree, a lot of them aren't. That's the job of the parents, non-Christian and Christian alike. Unfortunately, when you espouse one viewpoint over all others, and try to block access to those other inputs, you're hurting critical thinking, not helping it.
Shig said:
The idea behind it is you can't make an adequate choice about how to lead your life without actually trying to live it. It's a more open-minded viewpoint than the shit most Christian sects would put forward. Evangelicals would be too terrified to give their flocks such freedom. They wouldn't trust their people to come back.
Ghengis Cohen
Banned
Iron Maiden and fornication? Best news I've heard all day.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
You are seriously marginalizing the issue when you reduce it to a kid choosing between "sinful Spiderman" and reading the Bible. Popular culture is pervasive and affects everyone, especially children. Children form their own consciences based on the moral order around them, which is formed by a million events and habits. I think you are underestimating the cumulative effect of a popular culture completely at odds with traditional religion. Like Fragamemmnon said, traditional religion is no match for the seductiveness of American popular culture, especially when you add the element of teen peer pressure.
I recommend Chuck Klosterman's chapter on The Real World in his book Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs in which he posits that the target audience of that show now consciously emulates Real World character archetypes in order to relate to their peers. I have seen this phenomenon and believe that it exists. Regardless of what you think about organized religion, how is that a good thing?
I recommend Chuck Klosterman's chapter on The Real World in his book Sex, Drugs, and Cocoa Puffs in which he posits that the target audience of that show now consciously emulates Real World character archetypes in order to relate to their peers. I have seen this phenomenon and believe that it exists. Regardless of what you think about organized religion, how is that a good thing?
Moderation Unlimited
Banned
So the American version of religious extremism is failing, huh?
Maybe cynicism and the interweb are good for something afterall...
Maybe cynicism and the interweb are good for something afterall...
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Guileless said:
It's not a good thing--but the problem is not that popular culture exists (and what IS popular culture, anyways?), it's the aforementioned problem of parents not teaching their children to think critically.
I don't believe the solution to "bad" influences is to try to cut off those influences and pray your child never gets exposed to the real world. I believe the only viable, moral solution is to equip your child with critical thinking skills so that they can form their own system of ethics, despite all of their external influences.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Everyone (again except extreme examples like the Amish) will be exposed to the real world eventually. Some people want to impart their moral code/belief system on children at their formative stages before they go out into the real world. I assume even you would have some limits, e.g. you're not going to show hard core porn to your 5-year-old. People will come to different conclusions about where those limits are based on their own sense of morality and what they want their children to become.
If you are completely indifferent about what conclusions about morality your child reaches, this isn't a problem, but obviously that isn't the case with traditional religious believers and can hardly be said to be the case with anyone. I understand the theory of what you're saying, and in a perfect world that would be great, but I think if you have a child eventually you will see that in practice it is very different.
If you are completely indifferent about what conclusions about morality your child reaches, this isn't a problem, but obviously that isn't the case with traditional religious believers and can hardly be said to be the case with anyone. I understand the theory of what you're saying, and in a perfect world that would be great, but I think if you have a child eventually you will see that in practice it is very different.
Sirpopopop
Member
IF you read the article you will note that at the end the 4% statistic is debunked and regarded as a "myth" or distortion of statistics to manufacture a crises that does not really exist.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Guileless said:
Sure, no argument there. I just don't see the justification for the particular limits that many evangelical Christians try to impose.
I also think Christians are acting against their own interests if they want their children to become moral people as they grow up. You've seen examples right here of how overly controlling parents drive their children to become hardcore partyers and the like.
Guileless said:
Of course I'm not indifferent about the conclusions about morality children would reach, and I don't expect anyone else to be either. It's natural that one would want a child to grow up in certain ways rather than others. But is blocking out mainstream culture actually going to help that? And if you keep too much information from your child, is that child going to grow up and not question things? Are you hurting the chances that your child will be a critical thinker?
I think many evangelical Christian parents, even if they have good intentions, are going to hurt their own goals in the long run.
Link1110 said:
QFT.
That's what my problem is. I believe there is a God, but all evidence I have seen says that not a lot of Christians have read any of what God told them to do.
"Judge not, lest ye be judged? Love thy neighbor as thyself? Screw that, let's just hate people and their lifestyles instead and tell them how they are all going to hell."
Teens don't listen to the church anymore because they have gay friends that they love, and they see the hatred that is radiating from Christianity ("OMG let's excommunicate this girl for having an abortion or for reading Harry Potter") and they reject that total load of crap. Not only that, they also see what God's organization is doing it and blame it on God, or deny that there is a God.
I've been preaching this to people I know from church and otherwise for years, and they don't listen. They are very set in their ways, and they think they are doing God's will. Jesus would definitely not be happy with the church today for this reason. Jesus befriended beggars, tax collectors, criminals, whores, pretty much the gay people of today in the eyes of the society of 2000 years ago. Shouldn't the church follow the example Jesus set for them before he died? Maybe the church would have more success.
All I have to say is, I am glad that I've been converted from the 4%, because I used to go to the same camps and listen to people say how horrible masturbation, gay people, abortions, tiny sips of alcohol, and other stuff. I ultimately didn't buy it.
In fact, I thank God every day that He has allowed me to be an open-minded individual who accepts everyone for who they are. And I feel sorry for the close-minded ones.
Edit: what I meant in the paragraph before last is that Jesus hung out with people that the religious organization of the day said were evil. We should follow His example, because they aren't evil, no one is.
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