Because if I'm level 80 and my gear is level 65, I should be punished for not having good gear for my level. The reason you should be punished is because you can get gear from these downleveled areas that are good for your level. Otherwise I wouldn't bother seeing higher level content and instead demolish low level content for the best gear.
If I'm level 80 and have 80 exotics, I'm going to be stronger than a level 35 in 35 masterwork gear, since at level 35 there aren't even exotics. So you still get an advantage, just not a "I'm 45 levels higher than you" advantage.
There's no evidence at all that leveling up inside a zone would ever make you weaker relative to the level before based on gear scaling. I'd love to see some hard data on this but my instincts are telling me that the boost you get from the trait point makes up for anything you lose statistically being one level further from your gear level.
The scaling makes it impractical to be at level 70 with level 30 gear in a level 30 zone and get level 70 gear (well, it'd still be practical in that you still would get it actually, it would just be harder).
Because if I'm level 80 and my gear is level 65, I should be punished for not having good gear for my level. The reason you should be punished is because you can get gear from these downleveled areas that are good for your level. Otherwise I wouldn't bother seeing higher level content and instead demolish low level content for the best gear.
If I'm level 80 and have 80 exotics, I'm going to be stronger than a level 35 in 35 masterwork gear, since at level 35 there aren't even exotics. So you still get an advantage, just not a "I'm 45 levels higher than you" advantage.
In simpler terms, everything scales down, including your gear. If you have crappy gear for a level 50 character and you're in a level 10 zone, you have crappy level 10 gear now.
It's a good thing because it keeps you from leveling up in a low area and then going back to your native level area and wondering why you are getting two shotted. The difficulty level remains consistent no matter which range you're in.
However, much like raiding, there are multiple paths in GW2 in each explorable dungeon that can be done. Meaning, you don't have to run the same path each time if you want to change it up, thus making it fun.
Explorable dungeons would be fun if they weren't so simplistic. I've never had to grind heroics in WoW this much, and the heroics had more compelling mechanics and encounters than all three explorable paths combined. Calling dungeon sets "gear that shows off your mastery of a dungeon" is laughable. You can "master" these dungeons in only a few runs.
Personally I thought it has the best starting area because it's straight forward, and the Balamb Garden style city (yes, not a Death Star - sure it looks like a Death Star but the innards remind me more of Balamb Garden) is rather fun and easy to navigate.
Also apparently SWTOR fans hate the game according tvtwerps.
Because if I'm level 80 and my gear is level 65, I should be punished for not having good gear for my level. The reason you should be punished is because you can get gear from these downleveled areas that are good for your level. Otherwise I wouldn't bother seeing higher level content and instead demolish low level content for the best gear.
If I'm level 80 and have 80 exotics, I'm going to be stronger than a level 35 in 35 masterwork gear, since at level 35 there aren't even exotics. So you still get an advantage, just not a "I'm 45 levels higher than you" advantage.
I'm not talking about that kind of situation. I am well aware of how important it is to keep my gear up-to-date. If I am level 40 equipped with level appropriate gear and proceed to clear aa level 25 zone there is a good chance I gained 3-4 levels in the process. Each time I would have gotten statistically weaker. Now, we could debate how much of a difference this really makes but is anyone really going to say this isn't a bit odd for an RPG? Are we really suppose to upgrade gear every level to avoid this?
again, when that IS the end game content, why is it acceptable to make it so grindy? there's no reason to make it so many runs except to irritate your player base
I feel ya, I'm nearly 30 (scary) and have been playing MUDs and online RPGs since I was a preteen on our 1200 baud modem. I socialize because otherwise why would I play these games? It's not that they're strictly worse than single player games mechanically, but they definitely have a lot of flaws that could be avoided if they were single player instead. The social elements are what elevate the genre above that, if I were to ignore it they'd be a lot more boring. For the record, while I find GW2 inherantly anti-social, I also find WoW that way if you don't look for it, and most other modern MMOs. As long as there is sufficient reason to be social for other gains, I'm going to do it (being in a guild in GW and an alliance brings me a lot of socialization and increases my fun. Same in wow. Chatting in map chat is more fun to me than just doing hearts, etc).
I'm in a weird spot, because I don't play MMOs unless my RL friends play with me. To that end, I generally socialize less with strangers, and don't usually mind.
GW2 arrived, and no one else likes the game. I find it boring as hell playing alone, though I'm intrigued by the combat system. Seeing new stuff is the only thing getting me to log on, and that's sort of the reason I quit Rift - once the zones stopped being interesting and I hit max level, I had no desire to log on again.
The actual way the DEs work doesn't bug me at all so far, and I like the way the zones are set up in general. The thing I liked most about WAR were the PQs, so just running around in a cluster attacking waves is enjoyable enough to keep me interested for a while.
Most of my best experiences in MMOs were in EQ1 and FFXI, two games where extended grouping was necessary for progressing your character. No rose-colored glasses here, the reason I quit EQ1 was because the raiding became too much of a chore full of internal and external guild politics, and the reason I quit FFXI was because I spent two weeks unable to get a single exp group that lasted more than 15 minutes and just gave up. But my first blind run into Kaesora with my friends at mid-level still strikes me as the best, most unpredictable thing I've ever done in an MMO, and I'll never forgot a day-long group I had in FFXI back when everyone focused on skillchains and magic bursts. The level of variety, surprise, hilarity, teamwork, and coordination on display in these moments are the real reason I keep playing the genre at all, and I've come to feel I've been forcing myself to follow wherever the populations move in spite of games frequently feeling more and more empty, pre-planned, and inorganic.
Yes, I realize the irony of my excitement over and defense of SWTOR for a time.
I hate to drop such a bloated post, but usually whenever you say a new game isn't as interesting to you as EQ, you get a dozen replies about how no game will ever be that interesting because it was your first. EverQuest (1) was indeed my first MMO, and the nature of it seems so archaic now that it's hard for me to believe I took all the time necessary to look up exactly how I was supposed to do... well, just about anything. For my money though, there has been no greater simulation of adventure that I've ever played. Being dropped blind and unguided into a world and sent out to figure it all out yourself is something gaming desperately needs more of, but that's so unacceptable for many games and gamers now.
I just long for a return to PVE in MMOs being as unpredictable and team-based as PVP often still is. This isn't a knock on GW2, I've barely scratched the surface and most of this post doesn't really apply to it, but I can already tell this isn't a game which is going to hold my interest for many years.
Frankly, I don't think I could get into EQ again either at this point because it is a very old game and because of what a nightmarish chore it became for me, but my complaints with many games that have continued the genre are very specific and not nostalgia-tinged. I'll never forget my first week of playing WoW after quitting a routine I'd had of raiding in EQ and grouping in FFXI. I couldn't believe how dynamic the combat felt but how weak grouping felt in comparison. It was like I was just running around spamming whatever I wanted without any consideration for what the rest of my group was doing. It felt like a single player game with grouping cobbled into it as an afterthought. Things got better as I leveled and as the game got deeper, but that lack of a sense of real teamwork never went away until I started PVPing.
Maybe what I'm trying and failing to say here succinctly is, the worst change to MMOs for me isn't the reduced relevance of general socializing and community, it's the reduced relevance of teamwork and group specific mechanics, at least in PVE.
Ham I would have to agree with you wholeheartedly on the feeling of MMOs to people. Your first is always your best memories, and it's hard to top that.
We can only hope that MMOs get larger and larger, with worlds that become immense and interesting to delve into, but the problem is that wikis and other guides will emerge (from reddit, especially) to "demystify" the game. Back in the day it was hard to get info unless you were surfing the official forums, and then Thottbot and Wowhead showed up, and the game got even more interesting as the mysteries got revealed.
Now that it's status quo, it takes a lot to keep the wonder alive, imo.
My personal take...yeah, I like when other people are near me, but only because it means I can leech off of their ability to help me kill stuff faster. I think that's basically how everyone feels - "Hey, these guys are fighting these mobs already, this DE will go five times faster and now is worth my time, I won't ignore it". I won't put words in everyone else's mouth, maybe you genuinely get psyched just knowing someone else is playing the same game as you, but 'helping' someone is no more or less possible in this game as any other
Meanwhile, in WoW (or any other MMO, really), you would have seen a group of people doing that huge quest and think "Bummer, now I missed it."
Alternatively:
"Damn, if only I was in that group"
"Man, they stole our mob"
"Crap, now I won't get that loot"
"Fuck, that encounter only respawns every 2 hours, now I have to wait"
"LOLZ I can has killsteal"
or, more subtle:
Never played an MMO before, thinking of getting this as a friend hyped me up, also no monthly fees is the reason this is going to be my first MMO. But I am not sure if my computer is good enough.
XFX HD 4870 1GB
AMD Phenom II X3 720 2.8GHz
4GB RAM
Game Director comments on difficulty of Explorable mode dungeons.
"All of that being said, the game is VERY new for most of our players, and I can absolutely promise with more knowledge of the game and advanced player skill, the explorable dungeons can all be overcome by being skilled groups"
Translation - "L2P NUB LOL"
"If DoA was any indication, a couple months from now, many of you will likely be posting saying most of the dungeons are too easy and you need better challenges"
Oh, taking feedback from the hardcore forum zombies? Yeah thats a good idea. GW1 was not a MMORPG so taking what worked for that game wont always work for GW2.
Game Director comments on difficulty of Explorable mode dungeons.
"All of that being said, the game is VERY new for most of our players, and I can absolutely promise with more knowledge of the game and advanced player skill, the explorable dungeons can all be overcome by being skilled groups"
Translation - "L2P NUB LOL"
"If DoA was any indication, a couple months from now, many of you will likely be posting saying most of the dungeons are too easy and you need better challenges"
Oh, taking feedback from the hardcore forum zombies? Yeah thats a good idea. GW1 was not a MMORPG so taking what worked for that game wont always work for GW2.
What I would call hard was trying to run Domain of Anguish and Mallyx with a balanced setup in the first weeks it was released. Many people called it impossible, but it was a heck lot of fun to do! Why? Because it offered veriety and fluid gameplay, quick and deadly like it should be. Not kiting a mob for 2 minutes and then walking into the next mob rinse and repeat.
Ill point out ironically, when we first turned on DoA back in Gw1 the posts youre seeing in this forum from a few folks about difficulty were the exact same comments everyone had about DoA. It was impossible, mobs were just tuned to do insane damage and have huge HP, there was no tactics to defeat DoA, etc. I went back and read through the original DoA launch feedback and it was literally identical to the comments folks on the forums are leaving now.
We made the choice back then to stick with the difficulty, and give people time to learn how to play the dungeon better and overcome it. A few months later, people viewed it as the most fun thing in the game and totally reasonable without us changing anything.
Well be doing the same with the Gw2 explorable dungeons, our own internal testing teams and alpha test groups learned to beat them using a combination of player skill, synchronous builds, strong use of cross-profession combos, use of cooking/consumable buffs (these make a huge difference!) and well formed player tactics. By comparison, after having months to play the game and the time our alpha was complete, some of our better dungeon groups felt the explorable dungeons were too easy for launch, we decided not to make them any harder given the expected player skill on launch.
Were actively monitoring every dungeon and working on balancing issues we encounter appropriately. Well be keeping an eye on bosses we think dont have enough varied mechanics to warrant their large health pools and updating them over time to make them more varied/interesting fights. Well be monitoring, and continually tweaking/adding to dungeon rewards over time and of course balancing where we see the need. And of course, well be looking at adding more dungeons as well!
All of that being said, the game is VERY new for most of our players, and I can absolutely promise with more knowledge of the game and advanced player skill, the explorable dungeons can all be overcome by being skilled groups. Weve seen many groups do it just fine in our internal alpha test once they had time to learn how to play the game well. Just like Domain of Anguish in Gw1, it takes time and practice to learn how to overcome stuff as hard as our explorable mode dungeons, and thats exactly the kind of players they are designed for.
If DoA was any indication, a couple months from now, many of you will likely be posting saying most of the dungeons are too easy and you need better challenges
again, when that IS the end game content, why is it acceptable to make it so grindy? there's no reason to make it so many runs except to irritate your player base
Game Director comments on difficulty of Explorable mode dungeons.
"All of that being said, the game is VERY new for most of our players, and I can absolutely promise with more knowledge of the game and advanced player skill, the explorable dungeons can all be overcome by being skilled groups"
Dude, the dungeons ARE easy. It hardly has anything to do with skill though, all you have to do is trait correctly and EVERYTHING is tank and spank. It's pathetic. So yeah, "L2P NUB LOL" because the dungeons are seriously trivial to go through and have zero interesting or challenging mechanics.
I recently hit 30s (at 33 now), when I hit 30 I took a look at the AC spot. There was a lot of people standing around lfp. Since I was a newb I didn't think it would be wise to try joining one and screwing it up for the whole group since I didn't know what to expect. I entered solo to check it out and I couldn't kill one monster. I'm usually good at out lasting things one on one and especially if it's at least 3 levels higher than me but this thing had a huge amount of hp and hit like a truck (I'm a thief). In the end I just went to a 29ish zone and camped events to level to 33 (for my recommended mission level).
Just how brutal is AC with a group? How should I set my traits for AC thief? I have 10 in deadly arts (power% and condition duration), 10 in Critical Strikes (crit chance, and damage), and a few in Shadow Arts (toughness and healing). I was thinking I'd probably gear for support. I use bow for aoe condition effects, and gun/dagger to bleed and make vulnerable.
It's annoying but not un-doable. I was in an early guild group of the dungeon and we wiped at one of the bosses (the "lovers") about 3 times before we kind of refined what needed to be done.
I've done story AC, DM, TA, and Arah and none of those were extraordinarily difficult. Arah was just really long and quite a few waypoint rezzes at the airship part.
Only done TA explorable...it's mostly easy and about 40 minutes a run.
So, limited sample set but nothing like the elite missions/areas in GW1 when they first released.
but its not. it's the only sustainable non pvp content available. optional grinds are OK, but when it's all you have to do it's no longer optional within the game and becomes the meta option of playing and grinding, or logging off. there are plenty of grinds in plenty of games, but they represent a small subset of the available content. in gw at endgame it IS the content. nobody should have top apologize for rightly decrying that as bullshit.
Hmm..I doubt anyone has them (but I'm not holding my breath, I'm sure someone does) but we've been able to preview them by knowing the how the item linking works.
The bow I am (slowly) working towards is a MLP bow :/
100g is a low-ball estimate. iirc you need 100 of the icy runeshards (something like that) from the vendor at the claw of jormag event and thats 100g right there. Let alone 250 of each tier 6 fine material, and the gifts that will need 100 ____ orbs or ______ lodestones, ectos, etc
I recently hit 30s (at 33 now), when I hit 30 I took a look at the AC spot. There was a lot of people standing around lfp. Since I was a newb I didn't think it would be wise to try joining one and screwing it up for the whole group since I didn't know what to expect. I entered solo to check it out and I couldn't kill one monster. I'm usually good at out lasting things one on one and especially if it's at least 3 levels higher than me but this thing had a huge amount of hp and hit like a truck (I'm a thief). In the end I just went to a 29ish zone and camped events to level to 33 (for my recommended mission level).
Dude, the dungeons ARE easy. It hardly has anything to do with skill though, all you have to do is trait correctly and EVERYTHING is tank and spank. It's pathetic. So yeah, "L2P NUB LOL" because the dungeons are seriously trivial to go through and have zero interesting or challenging mechanics.
It is coincidence or purposefulness that you did not quote the second part in which I said "Oh, taking feedback from the hardcore forum zombies? Yeah thats a good idea.".
You are not the majority. The MMORPG crowd is mostly casuals. Casuals have a very different idea of what is difficult. Just because you think that the dungeons are "LOL so easy" doesnt mean the other 90% think they are as well.
This is the same dismissive "well, I think they are easy so whats the matter with you" egotistic attitude from the Game Director.
Hmm..I doubt anyone has them (but I'm not holding my breath, I'm sure someone does) but we've been able to preview them by knowing the how the item linking works.
The bow I am (slowly) working towards is a MLP bow :/
but its not. it's the only sustainable non pvp content available. optional grinds are OK, but when it's all you have to do it's no longer optional within the game and becomes the meta option of playing and grinding, or logging off. there are plenty of grinds in plenty of games, but they represent a small subset of the available content. in gw at endgame it IS the content. nobody should have top apologize for rightly decrying that as bullshit.
2. how is it not optional? they are cosmetic skins with minor stat differences. If the grind was less and you get the gear, then there would be nothing for you to do in the game. Just because you don't want to do anything other than this part doesn't make it not optional since it's not required for any other content (gear check)
3. What kind of content do you think it should have then?
Endgame content is a completely outdated idea. It doesn't even make sense. You're saying that you spent 60+ hours beating the game, don't want to do the PvP, which is never beatable, and don't want the grind? What's left?
Someone on my server has it, it's annoying as hell as it shows up as a HUGE blue icon on your minimap even in pve. If there's a way to turn it off, the dude hasn't found it.
I think it's more in line with what do you do once you hit 80 or even point of getting to max level since everything else in the game is available to do from nearly lvl 1. To folks it seems like the only true end game at 80 is the dungeon grinds. All other activities a player has been doing for many hours already and those who no longer can level are looking for something new to reach for. This goes back to prelaunch when others and I tried saying how the game has no endgame and that folks were going to get confused/upset about it. The whole game is essentially open to a player, you play it as you want and have to set their own "endgame" goal. But to those who have played many MMO's, they seem to see the dungeon and karma grinds as basically the end.
My goal is basically this. I'll keep it short because I know few care (nor should they) about my goals.
1 Full set of 80 exotic armor that isn't the crafted armor. I have mostly exotic armor by it's a hodge-podge from different sets. Ocd on my part, maybe.
A lvl 80 exotic weapon of each type usuable by my class (ranger) that isn't the crafted skin.
Every Dungeon path done at least once (I want to see every boss)
1 Legendary weapon....eventually
So what is the actual deal with the exotic 'token gear' that you get from running dungeons? I keep seeing people say it's "not necessary" and only looks better, but isn't it the best gear you can get? Why wouldn't it be necessary? I realize you can transmute gear, but isn't that the only way to get good gear? I didn't notice anything that good dropping anywhere.
My main concern is just that even if you only want 1 set of matched gear it's going to take ~75 runs of ONE instance. 75 runs of all the instances or something wouldn't seem nearly as repetitive, but it does seem silly to have the tokens be specific to each gear set and instance. Again, unless I'm missing something. I understand why someone would say it's stupid to want to farm ALL the gear sets (and I'd agree) but it seems like it's worth it to have one, right? And that means you have to pick an instance an run it almost 80 times. That's a lame system.
So what is the actual deal with the exotic 'token gear' that you get from running dungeons? I keep seeing people say it's "not necessary" and only looks better, but isn't it the best gear you can get? Why wouldn't it be necessary? I realize you can transmute gear, but isn't that the only way to get good gear? I didn't notice anything that good dropping anywhere.
My main concern is just that even if you only want 1 set of matched gear it's going to take ~75 runs of ONE instance. 75 runs of all the instances or something wouldn't seem nearly as repetitive, but it does seem silly to have the tokens be specific to each gear set and instance. Again, unless I'm missing something. I understand why someone would say it's stupid to want to farm ALL the gear sets (and I'd agree) but it seems like it's worth it to have one, right? And that means you have to pick an instance an run it almost 80 times. That's a lame system.
The stats on the dungeon armor are the same as any other piece of exotic level gear. You can get exotic gear through crafting and some karma vendors as well.
Edit - Forgot you can also get exotics from WvW badges, which I think is the only source of non-crafted exotic jewelry.
So what is the actual deal with the exotic 'token gear' that you get from running dungeons? I keep seeing people say it's "not necessary" and only looks better, but isn't it the best gear you can get? Why wouldn't it be necessary? I realize you can transmute gear, but isn't that the only way to get good gear? I didn't notice anything that good dropping anywhere.
My main concern is just that even if you only want 1 set of matched gear it's going to take ~75 runs of ONE instance. 75 runs of all the instances or something wouldn't seem nearly as repetitive, but it does seem silly to have the tokens be specific to each gear set and instance. Again, unless I'm missing something. I understand why someone would say it's stupid to want to farm ALL the gear sets (and I'd agree) but it seems like it's worth it to have one, right? And that means you have to pick an instance an run it almost 80 times. That's a lame system.
Well iirc if you have level 80 exotic armor, it is the best in the game. Whether it's crafted, from a dungeon, 42k karma vendors or mystic forge luck. Just differ in looks.
People are going for the dungeon armor because of a combination of they like the look, haven't crafted a comparable piece, don't want the karma armor, etc. Lots of ways to get armor. The dungeon armor is not required. People like dungeon runs because of the money and chest drops as well.
For those spending time doing pvp/wvw while leveling - how is the xp? Can you actually level by doing pvp or is it pretty minimal? I ask because when I get the game I'll likely spend a lot of time doing pvp.
For those spending time doing pvp/wvw while leveling - how is the xp? Can you actually level by doing pvp or is it pretty minimal? I ask because when I get the game I'll likely spend a lot of time doing pvp.
Structured PvP hard-levels you to 80 while you are in that area so you don't gain experience, you gain points towards your PvP rank. You get XP in WvW and it's definitely enough to level through PvP alone. You could probably level faster in PvE if you were dead set on it I guess.
Well iirc if you have level 80 exotic armor, it is the best in the game. Whether it's crafted, from a dungeon, 42k karma vendors or mystic forge luck. Just differ in looks.
People are going for the dungeon armor because of a combination of they like the look, haven't crafted a comparable piece, don't want the karma armor, etc. Lots of ways to get armor. The dungeon armor is not required. People like dungeon runs because of the money and chest drops as well.
Okay, thank you and to the person above you. This greatly changes my opinion of this and I think that's a much more fair system than I had originally understood.
Well iirc if you have level 80 exotic armor, it is the best in the game. Whether it's crafted, from a dungeon, 42k karma vendors or mystic forge luck. Just differ in looks.
People are going for the dungeon armor because of a combination of they like the look, haven't crafted a comparable piece, don't want the karma armor, etc. Lots of ways to get armor. The dungeon armor is not required. People like dungeon runs because of the money and chest drops as well.
80 runs of the same dungeon, even over a few months is still silly. Defending the currency system for dungeons as being optional or unnecessary to do, still doesn't make the system any less broken. On the 79th run to get your full set the game is no longer fun nor challenging, it's a grind. It's further amplified by the fact that you are doing the grind simply for aesthetics and not to unlock further interesting or challenging content.
Okay, thank you and to the person above you. This greatly changes my opinion of this and I think that's a much more fair system than I had originally understood.
Yeah. I gave a quick thought about whether the tokens should be general and not dungeon specific but then a specific dungeon run, whichever is the easiest of the game, would be swarmed with runners. It would be no fun.
80 runs of the same dungeon, even over a few months is still silly. Defending the currency system for dungeons as being optional or unnecessary to do, still doesn't make the system any less broken. On the 79th run to get your full set the game is no longer fun nor challenging, it's a grind. It's further amplified by the fact that you are doing the grind simply for aesthetics and not to unlock further interesting or challenging content.
Yeah, I will agree that the prices are highish. I'm going for TA for the item I need (500 tokens) for a legendary weapon (that I won't be able to use in forever, just getting it out of the way). So that's not as much as what I would need for a full armor set.
For those spending time doing pvp/wvw while leveling - how is the xp? Can you actually level by doing pvp or is it pretty minimal? I ask because when I get the game I'll likely spend a lot of time doing pvp.
I found leveling in WvW pretty slow compared to finishing zones in PvE, personally. If you don't do events like fort attacks, takeovers or defense around capture points you're not going to get much xp. Sticking to the zergs just attacking other players in the field is poor xp and not worth it.
Finally got your AC Bow? Congrats! I'm still sitting on the pearl needler. I think I might replace it with the TA shortbow skin once I get the 500 token gift first.
Man, it sucks being at work and only able to talk about the game
Yeah. I gave a quick thought about whether the tokens should be general and not dungeon specific but then a specific dungeon run, whichever is the easiest of the game, would be swarmed with runners. It would be no fun.
For those spending time doing pvp/wvw while leveling - how is the xp? Can you actually level by doing pvp or is it pretty minimal? I ask because when I get the game I'll likely spend a lot of time doing pvp.
It really depends on the number of objectives you're completing. Stick with a large group and throw yourself at every dolyak/guard/camp/tower/keep that they take. Personally I did 25-80 from WvW alone. I can't say whether it would be faster/slower than PvE, but on a good day you could expect a level every hour or more if you're with a group just steamrolling one objective after another.
Finally got your AC Bow? Congrats! I'm still sitting on the pearl needler. I think I might replace it with the TA shortbow skin once I get the 500 token gift first.
Man, it sucks being at work and only able to talk about the game
