Support NeoGAF

[Hawkian]

But you don't see how this is a pretty good compromise? They need to keep the content relevant and have players always available to run the dungeon, so there are high requirements to get the available loot in each dungeon. BUT, unlike other MMOs, the rewards are mainly for aesthetic purposes.

So there is an all-but-guaranteed presence of a population of experienced players on all of the dungeons in the game. It keeps the content from becoming irrelevant, and without implicitly raising the gear requirement of the entire game and making people feel like they HAVE to grind through to get that content even if they don't want to play that way.

I'd say the needed fix is finding ways to keep the dungeon crawling fresher for people who have to do it over and over. Overall, though, it's a win to me.

This post just solidified to me that the current system is the best available way to do it and adding additional paths to the dungeons over time is the way to go.

I'd like to take a look at this particular line:

It's further amplified by the fact that you are doing the grind simply for aesthetics and not to unlock further interesting or challenging content.

What is further amplified by that?

As you state, it's simply for aesthetics; no stat advantage, no new content, no extra anything anybody might want besides looking cool. If it did provide any of that, the amount of runs necessary at the moment would be ludicrous. But all it is- literally all it is- is an aesthetic reward to work toward (plus, hey, if you like the stats on the item that's one exotic you don't need to get). It's prestige. The tokens are soulbound. If I see someone with an armor piece or dungeon weapon, I know they ran that dungeon a bunch of times in explorable, just like my chestguard demonstrates to people that I can handle AC.

 

[LunaticHigh]

This post just solidified to me that the current system is the best available way to do it and adding additional paths to the dungeons over time is the way to go.

I'd like to take a look at this particular line:

What is further amplified by that?

As you state, it's simply for aesthetics; no stat advantage, no new content, no extra anything anybody might want besides looking cool. If it did provide any of that, the amount of runs necessary at the moment would be ludicrous. But all it is- literally all it is- is an aesthetic reward to work toward. It's prestige. The tokens are soulbound. If I see someone with an armor piece or dungeon weapon, I know they ran that dungeon a bunch of times in explorable, just like my chestguard demonstrates to people that I can handle AC.

Well, it's not really prestige, as none of the dungeons provide any sort of challenge other than one boss in Arah.

Currently, it's whoever can come up with the quickest use of the known exploits in each dungeon to do them the fastest. Most dungeons have 10-15 minute runs now.

 

[TheYanger]

there is no middle ground. leveling is fast and easy. then at 80 you grind forever or do wvw. is it shocking that grinds aren't appealing? i don't understand the attitude that wants the game to sap fun in the form of grinds rather than legitimate content

 

[thetrin]

there is no middle ground. leveling is fast and easy. then at 80 you grind forever or do wvw. is it shocking that grinds aren't appealing? i don't understand the attitude that wants the game to sap fun in the form of grinds rather than legitimate content

Are you talking about doing dungeon explorables?

 

[vaelic]

there is no middle ground. leveling is fast and easy. then at 80 you grind forever or do wvw. is it shocking that grinds aren't appealing? i don't understand the attitude that wants the game to sap fun in the form of grinds rather than legitimate content

whats wrong with WvW? That was DAOC's hook and it was great

 

[KingKong]

there is no middle ground. leveling is fast and easy. then at 80 you grind forever or do wvw. is it shocking that grinds aren't appealing? i don't understand the attitude that wants the game to sap fun in the form of grinds rather than legitimate content

What legitimate content? What do you want to do when you beat the game? I don't get it.

 

[thetrin]

Not to mention that WvW is god damn awesome.

 

[bluestuff]

This post just solidified to me that the current system is the best available way to do it and adding additional paths to the dungeons over time is the way to go.

I'd like to take a look at this particular line:

What is further amplified by that?

As you state, it's simply for aesthetics; no stat advantage, no new content, no extra anything anybody might want besides looking cool. If it did provide any of that, the amount of runs necessary at the moment would be ludicrous. But all it is- literally all it is- is an aesthetic reward to work toward (plus, hey, if you like the stats on the item that's one exotic you don't need to get). It's prestige. The tokens are soulbound. If I see someone with an armor piece or dungeon weapon, I know they ran that dungeon a bunch of times in explorable, just like my chestguard demonstrates to people that I can handle AC.

How is it a prestige? It's a pure time commitment where the content is trivialized after less then a dozen runs. It's not like in WoW where you have to modify builds, stats, buffs and strats to beat the raiding boss to get the title, gear or mount. It's not a question of how or if you can get the gear in guild wars, but when.

 

[Ephidel]

Someone on my server has it, it's annoying as hell as it shows up as a HUGE blue icon on your minimap even in pve. If there's a way to turn it off, the dude hasn't found it.

So that's what that was. Someone appeared in Caledon Forest with that yesterday while I was running around on my Engineer, and I'm sure there was some sort of rallying thing that made me pay attention to it. I spent ages hunting them out and trying to work out where they were, because I assumed it was an event of some sort. When I eventually found them, they were killing some spiders or something and mining ore. Right clicking on them had some sort of 'Join group' or 'Join Squadron' thing. I debated speaking to them and asking what was going on, but I didn't want to look stupid, so once I realised they were just running around doing their own thing I left them to it ^^;

 

[Ashodin]

there is no middle ground. leveling is fast and easy. then at 80 you grind forever or do wvw. is it shocking that grinds aren't appealing? i don't understand the attitude that wants the game to sap fun in the form of grinds rather than legitimate content

Are you talking about doing dungeon explorables?

whats wrong with WvW? That was DAOC's hook and it was great

What legitimate content? What do you want to do when you beat the game? I don't get it.

This. TheYanger, produce examples of what could be legitimate content instead of what every MMO already does anyway.

The legitimate content is there; just because it doesn't follow the same structure as other MMOs does not make it any less legit.

 

[Torraz]

This post just solidified to me that the current system is the best available way to do it and adding additional paths to the dungeons over time is the way to go.

I'd like to take a look at this particular line:

What is further amplified by that?

As you state, it's simply for aesthetics; no stat advantage, no new content, no extra anything anybody might want besides looking cool. If it did provide any of that, the amount of runs necessary at the moment would be ludicrous. But all it is- literally all it is- is an aesthetic reward to work toward (plus, hey, if you like the stats on the item that's one exotic you don't need to get). It's prestige. The tokens are soulbound. If I see someone with an armor piece or dungeon weapon, I know they ran that dungeon a bunch of times in explorable, just like my chestguard demonstrates to people that I can handle AC.

Theoretically aesthetics could fuel some elitist undertones in the community, e.g. "no one is allowed in this run/party/group/guild/[insert social opportunity] unless you have x/y/z visual appearance". Everyone who did not do the grind is not hardcore/cool enough etc. A bit like achievement linking before a raid invite in WoW.

Still, it seems like a somewhat decent compromise since in the end it's only aethstics. It remains to be seen, however, how the community adjusts to this.

 

[Torraz]

This. TheYanger, produce examples of what could be legitimate content instead of what every MMO already does anyway.

The legitimate content is there; just because it doesn't follow the same structure as other MMOs does not make it any less legit.

Some properly balancing large-scale content would be awesome. I once did some of the dragons late at night (server time) with only a comparably small group. This was fun and challenging, especially since there was no communication due to it being an open world group. In a group during the day time / early evening these are simply zergfests.

Most other events also don't seem to scale very well. At a certain point enemies simply die half a second after spawning, resulting in players having difficulty even getting tags/credit for participation.

So that is one area that they should definitely work at. Cool, open world, large scale events that work well in a small group, but also when many players show up.

 

[Vodh]

Some people seem to find it difficult to understand that for some, a big part of the fun in MMO is constantly working on improving your character, making him more and more powerful. Sure, for others it might be perfectly fine that in GW2 you get to the power cap very shortly after you turn 80, but I don't get what's so hard to understand about some people being unhappy about it.

 

[Amneisac]

For me, now that I understand that all level 80 exotics are the same (I guess you form your own set bonuses with runes?) that makes the grinding in instances to be a lot less of a problem. I actually don't mind making high requirements for something that's purely cosmetic. Of course, then you get into the issue of playing the game when there's no longer a reward, which is what I'm assuming The Yanger is most upset about (and what Vodh is calling attention to).

I mean, the game is still the same as far as the mechanics and all that are concerned, it's just that after you hit 80, you're not seeing anything new anymore and there aren't any substantial rewards to keep playing other than personal achievements. This is where enjoying the game is going to have to be enough to carry you through. If not, take a break for a few months and come back when there's more to do. It won't cost you any extra.

Editing just add to the above points a little bit about difficulty / strategy:

I agree that a lot of the content isn't very strategic right now and group play could certainly improve, but I don't think that's unique to GW2 in the MMO space. I mean, I loved FFXI and the group combat was pretty exciting and definitely required coordination, but at the same time, it was pretty boring after you killed the exact same enemy for the 100th time. You weren't even going anywhere, you were just camped out in a spot killing the same type of enemy repeatedly. I don't see the combat as very different from WoW as far as a 'don't-stand-in-the-fire' type of strategy with less emphasis on tanking on group healing. I don't mean that as a knock to either game, just that I don't think Guild Wars is necessarily miles behind other MMOs in terms of what kind of strategy exists in boss fights / dungeons.

Oh, and also, I would love to see some damage / healing meters. I know people hate them because they tend to parse out combat and make it more about spreadsheets than gaming, but I'd like to have to some idea of how different traits affect my personal performance in dungeons, etc.

 

[Hawkian]

Some people seem to find it difficult to understand that for some, a big part of the fun in MMO is constantly working on improving your character, making him more and more powerful. Sure, for others it might be perfectly fine that in GW2 you get to the power cap very shortly after you turn 80, but I don't get what's so hard to understand about some people being unhappy about it.

Now this is totally legit, though not exactly the same topic.

If you are interested in the concept of never really reaching a statistical ceiling (i.e. would prefer a gear treadmill to being easily able to get max stat gear), GW2 is quite simply probably going to be very disappointing for you. Nothing is hard to understand about that.

It just doesn't interest me personally. If ArenaNet implements something of this nature (and I felt exactly the same way about GW1), I will stop playing.

 

[BattleMonkey]

It is really simple, it takes MANY hours to get to max level in GW2, maybe not as much as other MMOs but still far more work than completeing most single player games. Once they have played that many hours into the game, many players just feel like they need an incentive to keep on going, goals to achieve, loot to get that is going to make them progress better and further. After spending 80+ hours into the game or whatever it takes, players are going to be reaching a point of fatigue unless they got that carrot on stick.

Players put a ton of time into the game and they reach a wall of progression, they want something new to achieve and not to keep doing more of the tasks that they have been doing for 80+ hours already or more with alt play.

For some people they should just kinda accept they had a good time and basically take a break, they got their moneys worth with that much play time. But if a player has in two weeks from release got to a point of fatigue and boredom... well there is never going to be pleasing you.

 

[Vossler]

!!!!!!!!!!!

AWESOME

Only 190 more to go, only 190 more to go...

 

[TheYanger]

The grinds are entirely optional. They're there to reward the people who enjoy that sort of thing. It adds a larger sense of purpose beyond just helping your friends through low level content that you might have abandoned otherwise.

If you don't like it, this game isn't short on alternatives.

wvw and. ..?

 

[Achtius]

AWESOME

Only 190 more to go, only 190 more to go...

600 to go for me

 

[thetrin]

wvw and. ..?

Dungeons? Personal story? Map completion? sPvP?

 

[Littlegator]

Are world changes still free? If so, when do they end?

 

[Grakl]

Are there no big end-game dungeons for more than five people?

 

[Ashodin]

Are world changes still free? If so, when do they end?

They're going to randomly turn it off to trap people who are exploiting it right now for WvW.

Just kidding!

 

[Littlegator]

They're going to randomly turn it off to trap people who are exploiting it right now for WvW.

Just kidding!

So they're still free?

 

[Hawkian]

Are there no big end-game dungeons for more than five people?

In a sense, all of Orr is this. Hunting there is a lot of fun in my opinion, but the number of bugged events is horrible.

edit: No raids; no instances for above five.

So they're still free?

Far as I know, still free.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Are there no big end-game dungeons for more than five people?

Raids? No.

 

[Jobacca]

Anyone elses trading post messed up? Can't sell anything :/

 

[DrFurbs]

Wheres the best site/fastest to buy this for digital download? I live in the UK.

 

[Trey]

but its not. it's the only sustainable non pvp content available. optional grinds are OK, but when it's all you have to do it's no longer optional within the game and becomes the meta option of playing and grinding, or logging off. there are plenty of grinds in plenty of games, but they represent a small subset of the available content. in gw at endgame it IS the content. nobody should have top apologize for rightly decrying that as bullshit.

There is no endgame. The game in its entirety is the content. The only difference between you at launch and you now are options. You can go to any zone and do some events. You can run any dungeon. You can WvW more competently. The game of GW2 is the endgame - it just has more grindy elements that become available post-max level for you to explore if you so choose.

So what you're complaining about is fundamentally against Anet's design philosophy. A more constructive argument would be how you felt a traditional endgame offering could fit in GW2's design model.

 

[shysaursoft]

180 hours later, I've hit level 80. 49% world complete, and still not bored of anything, not even the 1-15 Charr starting area. I like to go there to help newcomers, and get crafting materials.

Personal Story is only at the level 72 mark, and I've not even bothered with any of the dungeons aside from a few AC runs.

Due to low server population, WvW and Orr aren't really viable yet, but I'm in no rush.

PvP is always a good alternative when I don't feel like working towards anything, and just want to annoy people by dropping bombs and running away.

Huntsman and Leatherworking are barely above 150 each, still a long way to go there.

All this talk of perpetual improvement in character and stats, etc... I'm just enjoying playing, period. It's like Quake. You don't get better guns, but you find better opponents, or new ways to run a map, or new people to play with. That's more than enough for me. I don't need a damn carrot on a stick to keep goading me into playing: if the game isn't worth playing for its own sake, then nothing will be enough.

I've gotten more than the asking price out of GW2, so I'm quite happy with that.

 

[Grakl]

In a sense, all of Orr is this. Hunting there is a lot of fun in my opinion, but the number of bugged events is horrible.

edit: No raids; no instances for above five.

Raids? No.

Huh, that sucks.

 

[TheMink]

Is there a free trial?

Probaby not eh

 

[achapel]

edit: you can read it on the gafguild site, don't want to stir up any more drama so I removed it here.

 

[Arcteryx]

After doing CM runs out the whazzoo(300 tokens for the pants...*blows out brains*), I take back what I had said before about explore mode being challenging. The issue I think for many is that we are used to having set roles, and thus not having to spec for OURSELVES(meaning not having to worry as much about healing/condition removers). Once you start stacking vit/toughness and having condition removers out the whazzoo(for yourself/party), then its remarkably easy mode. It's definitely a different way of playing and will take some getting used to for most people imo.

I still think the "grind" for just a skin is a little extreme and I would much prefer to see the tokens shared cross dungeons(fix the exploitable ones first though).


Also, does anyone know if the anti-farming measures are in place for dungeons as well? I've gone from getting 30 > 25 > 15 tokens per run in CM...and it doesn't matter which option I choose now...15 tokens. I really hope it's just a bug and not supposed to be like that...otherwise screw grinding for some of these 500 token weapons/more armor in a set.


Has anyone else been using the Reddit trick to preview TP items? I've been doing it the past day or so and found a TON of good looking exotics that just have a simple icon..so you can't tell how awesome they really look until you preview them. I suspect once we get preview/people figure out how to do it with this workaround, then prices will skyrocket on some of the weapons.

 

[Macattk15]

Got my armor/weaponsmithing both to 400. The level 80 crafted heavy armor exotics look like pewp to me

Been making a lot of money from selling Ectoplasm. Been getting a lot of rare/exotics in Orr to salvage for em .... was able to pull 4 Globs out of one item once.

http://gafguild.com/index.php?threads/banning-and-removal-of-members-process.182/



Same message as on Gafguild. I don't mean to stir up drama, but this is not how we should be handling things.

Lol. That Ashodin guy comes off as a major douche to me (maybe it's just his avatar which makes me want to punch things).

Glad I'm not on Stormbluff any longer, what a shitty way to treat guild/forum members. You can ignore people for reasons.

 

[TheYanger]

This. TheYanger, produce examples of what could be legitimate content instead of what every MMO already does anyway.

The legitimate content is there; just because it doesn't follow the same structure as other MMOs does not make it any less legit.

I DID all of the 'legit' content. WvW? I Love it. I also have to sit in a queue for 2-6 hours because the queues are broken in order to enjoy it. It'd be totally sweet if there were things to do that weren't endless pointless shitty grinds. Smaller grinds are good things that people will do without getting pissed off. Retarded grinds? leave that shit back in the 90s or asia.

You keep bringing up the same stuff 'to do' and it's already been discussed:
Dungeons you have to run a billion times to accomplish anything, or you're just farming gold. Exploring you can only do once. That's not really a 'thing'. This is an MMO, not a console RPG you play once and set down. And...that's it.
Anything else is just doing shit for the sake of 'doing' anything. That's the same argument you could make for anything, games or otherwise. If they don't reward you for doing something or make it compelling, it's not actually something worth doing or counting as a thing to do.
Everything is a shitty grind except WvW, and that's a shitty queue.

If they made the grinds more reasonable, people would be more willing to do them and you would INCREASE activity levels.

There is no endgame. The game in its entirety is the content. The only difference between you at launch and you now are options. You can go to any zone and do some events. You can run any dungeon. You can WvW more competently. The game of GW2 is the endgame - it just has more grindy elements that become available post-max level for you to explore if you so choose.

So what you're complaining about is fundamentally against Anet's design philosophy. A more constructive argument would be how you felt a traditional endgame offering could fit in GW2's design model.

You can harp on that all you want, but you can get to level 80, and low level zones don't reward you shit, the fact that you can 'end' your levelling process does mean there is an 'end' game. otherwise it means you're done at that point. Claiming it's some beautiful flowing world where events seamlessly integrate and it changes around you sounds like great hyperbole if you're a dev, but if you're a player it just actually makes it sound like you haven't done much in this game. It's quite apparant all that there is to offer has been seen by the time you get to like level 40 (aside from actual visuals, which you see when you finish exploring the world, which is unrewarding and grindy in and of itself)

 

[Giard]

Seems like I got kicked out of the GAFGuild... can any officer tell me why?

 

[Artanisix]

After doing CM runs out the whazzoo(300 tokens for the pants...*blows out brains*), I take back what I had said before about explore mode being challenging. The issue I think for many is that we are used to having set roles, and thus not having to spec for OURSELVES(meaning not having to worry as much about healing/condition removers). Once you start stacking vit/toughness and having condition removers out the whazzoo(for yourself/party), then its remarkably easy mode. It's definitely a different way of playing and will take some getting used to for most people imo.

I still think the "grind" for just a skin is a little extreme and I would much prefer to see the tokens shared cross dungeons(fix the exploitable ones first though).


Also, does anyone know if the anti-farming measures are in place for dungeons as well? I've gone from getting 30 > 25 > 15 tokens per run in CM...and it doesn't matter which option I choose now...15 tokens. I really hope it's just a bug and not supposed to be like that...otherwise screw grinding for some of these 500 token weapons/more armor in a set.

Yeah like I said, dungeons are piss easy once you trait and gear defensively. Everything is tank and spank pretty much. No challenge at all, it bores me to tears.

You get 15 bonus tokens at the end of a dungeon every 24 hours (think of it like a daily quest in a dungeon). Afterwards it's always 5 bonus tokens until the next day. Not sure why you're dropping down to 15, it should be 30 > 20 (unless it's just specific to CM explore, didn't run that dungeon too much).

 

[flyinpiranha]

Damn, so I ordered new parts and I let a friend use my G13 and he won't be able to return it for a couple days. Looks like I won't be playing again until the end of this week! Three weeks off after playing for a few days after launch.

Hopefully get to start REALLY playing this weekend. I've been jonesin' !

I even don't mind hearing people bitch about the game, I want to play enough to bitch too damnit! Let me bitch!

 

[Ashodin]

Seems like I got kicked out of the GAFGuild... can any officer tell me why?

Currently we've been removing members that have been inactive for some time. If you are currently still active but don't play as much (ie, have low achievement points), we are shuffling those semi-active players into the GAF Overflow guild, and moving the daily players in the the GAF main guild.

Rest assured, we will find you a spot back! Message Hawkian The Blade when he gets online, add him to your contacts.

 

[Giard]

Currently we've been removing members that have been inactive for some time. If you are currently still active but don't play as much (ie, have low achievement points), we are shuffling those semi-active players into the GAF Overflow guild, and moving the daily players in the the GAF main guild.

Rest assured, we will find you a spot back! Message Hawkian The Blade when he gets online, add him to your contacts.

Inactive? I've played almost every day since launch... I have 634 achievement points.

I sent a message to Hawkian, thanks.

 

[Ashodin]

Inactive? I've played almost every day since launch... I have 634 achievement points.

I sent a message to Hawkian, thanks.

Might have been a mistake, but one of the things we have been doing is removing people not on Stormbluff Isle (causing issues with grouping and such, as Gandara has their own guild now as well).

So that may be the case.

 

[Giard]

Might have been a mistake, but one of the things we have been doing is removing people not on Stormbluff Isle (causing issues with grouping and such, as Gandara has their own guild now as well).

So that may be the case.

That must be it I guess, I'm on Northern Shiverpeaks to play with RL friends.
Hope I'll be able to play with you guys once guesting is enabled.

 

[Shanlei91]

Inactive? I've played almost every day since launch... I have 634 achievement points.

I sent a message to Hawkian, thanks.

700 is the minimum to stay in!

On the topic of people who play a lot. I typed in /age on Saturday. No me gusta.

 

[TheYanger]

Gkicked mid conversation? Seriously? lol.

 

[Hawkian]

700 is not the minimum

Most likely it was due to him being on another server.

Giard, you're more than welcome in GAFO for the time being. When things shake out to a more stable situation we may be able to keep people on non-Stormbluff servers in the main guild as well.

At the moment our priority is getting as many active, positive players on Stormbluff from the overflow guild into the main.

 

[inky]

I guess it's time to grind those achievement points, lest I be kicked as well.

 

[TheYanger]

I guess it's time to grind those achievement points, lest I be kicked as well.

Apparantly just based on who they like, cause i've got 1000 of em

 

[Ashodin]

I guess it's time to grind those achievement points, lest I be kicked as well.

There is a threshold of about 300 right now. Players below 300 that are still very active (new players) get to stay.

 

[th3dude]

Rut roh, the ban hammer has started swinging.