-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- |OT| - Cross Play on a Heavy Day
- Thread starter Volcynika
- Start date
Karsticles
Member
I mean I am next to him, try to throw, and just get thrown. It isn't like I don't get the distance. And command throws are supposed to beat normal throws.
You mean Zato? I don't know. Ask someone who has been playing for more than a few weeks.
GGs, you just kept running up to point blank on those and I'd throw it. SF2 tactics!
Had to relearn a lesson I had way back in #R - bait out Eddie's HS and you still get blown out of the air.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Throws are instant 0 or 1 frame if I remember right. So Damned Fang is 5 frames too slow to beat a throw
Karsticles
Member
I was running up point blank to command grab, which everyone has always told me beats normal grabs. Hence me being pissed off.
I thought command grabs make you grab immune, though.
That's not true for Zato.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
That's a potemkin thing
I'm not Q, and this isn't really a neutral thing, but you mash a little too much that you lose to frame traps. That and you have a habit of mashing throw on wakeup a lot. It's a good option for lower level play, but throws on the defensive are there to punish sloppy pressure/mistakes. Stronger players can blow you up for this. Also you seem to overmash on air techs. As Millia, I would just 5K anti air you for an easy BnB. So be a little careful of that.
That sounds scary lol
Not all of them.
If a cmdThrow and normal throw land on the same frame the cmdThrow will win. Zato's cmdThrow has startup, and can be thrown out of it's startup. The advantage of a cmdThrow, besides winning over normal throws on the same frame, is that you can do a running cmdThrow, and your running momentum carry your cmdThrow's active frames in to range.
So like, a optimal tick with Zato might be something like, tick with Little Eddie, then dash and startup your cmdThrow out of their throw range, but have your cmdThrow slide in to range as they are coming out of their throw protection.
and about normal throws happening on the same frame, I'm hearing that it determines the winner by who pressed the button first, on a sub-frame level.
So like, a optimal tick with Zato might be something like, tick with Little Eddie, then dash and startup your cmdThrow out of their throw range, but have your cmdThrow slide in to range as they are coming out of their throw protection.
and about normal throws happening on the same frame, I'm hearing that it determines the winner by who pressed the button first, on a sub-frame level.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I have no idea at all wtf to do vs Chipp with Ky in this.
Karsticles
Member
Oh yeah, and it irritates me that Potemkin isn't as big as his visuals suggest. Too many whiffed aerials. 
However, guess when I played my first non-trash I-No opponent? It was you, a week ago. Millia? That is you too. Chipp? You again. Q is the only not-crap Ky I have faced, etc. I am playing people who know how to use the characters for the FIRST TIME EVER against you guys. I am not "falling for" a frame trap, I don't even know that there is a frame trap until I get hit by it.
Once I learn the matchup, I will stop mashing. I don't mash against Q that often, because he tends to use the same set of attacks for his blockstrings, and I know they will all counterhit (from experience! Lol). The next time you play Millia, I will probably be a little less free because my brain will have digested the experience. I don't learn too much during a set, oddly enough. I learn during the cool-down process after playing as I look back and reflect. A lot of things in GG aren't normal on fighters. It seems like Millia still has frame advantage after her TKed full moon overhead is blocked, for example.
I get hit out of air techs because I forget I have to FD to survive antiairs. My brain is just not there yet because it doesn't make sense to me. I am not a big fan of that mechanic.
Thanks for telling me. -_-
This may sound crazy, but the mashing is with purpose. I am not panicking, it is intentional. I know most of you guys have been playing GG for a long time, but this is my first GG (unless you want to count spamming projectiles against friends as a kid). Guess what characters I dont know anything about? All of them. ASW is not very good at making blockstring enders intuitive like Capcom is. I have to learn from trial and error. So when I get in a blockstring, I will mash it out for a while to see when the pressure theoretically ends. If you notice, I don't do this when you use Zato, because I know his stuff.
However, guess when I played my first non-trash I-No opponent? It was you, a week ago. Millia? That is you too. Chipp? You again. Q is the only not-crap Ky I have faced, etc. I am playing people who know how to use the characters for the FIRST TIME EVER against you guys. I am not "falling for" a frame trap, I don't even know that there is a frame trap until I get hit by it.
Once I learn the matchup, I will stop mashing. I don't mash against Q that often, because he tends to use the same set of attacks for his blockstrings, and I know they will all counterhit (from experience! Lol). The next time you play Millia, I will probably be a little less free because my brain will have digested the experience. I don't learn too much during a set, oddly enough. I learn during the cool-down process after playing as I look back and reflect. A lot of things in GG aren't normal on fighters. It seems like Millia still has frame advantage after her TKed full moon overhead is blocked, for example.
I get hit out of air techs because I forget I have to FD to survive antiairs. My brain is just not there yet because it doesn't make sense to me. I am not a big fan of that mechanic.
Great advice, thank you. I will practice spacing it properly.
Oh yeah, no worries. I understand since honestly that's the best way to figure out what works or not.
You definitely understood quickly on what to do on defense against Millia as our set went on. Lots of nice adapting that I had to switch up my tricks later on. Also your pressure got a lot better. Looks like you're getting more and more comfortable with it now since I'm feeling the danger of the Zato knockdown.
My Chipp still needs a ton of work, so I hope I can put a better fight with him next time. It felt weird switching to him after Millia, but I didn't expect it to go so smoothly either.
Edit: Also, I got roped in to play some P4U2 the day before. Ended up inputting the GG input for Burst among some other bad stuff. Rotating ASW games is way too hard for me lol
Karsticles
Member
The number of times I ALMOST beat Millia was driving me nuts. Same with Grifter last night. Probably a dozen matches where we are both at a hair and I fail.
I want to start working on Zato pressure strings outside of the [K] ones. More [P]. Also, I need to stop doing P into S and do P into 2D.
Xrd is the first fighter I've spent more than a week with since I started playing marvel in 2011, but learning this game is rough . It really feels like each MU is its own puzzle to solve, and while this is the case for every fighting game, it somehow feels more important and more difficult in GG.
. It really feels like each MU is its own puzzle to solve, and while this is the case for every fighting game, it somehow feels more important and more difficult in GG.QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Xrd is the first fighter I've spent more than a week with since I started playing marvel in 2011, but learning this game is rough
You should see how much of a cluster fuck learning BB match ups is.
Karsticles
Member
Every time I start to learn a new matchup, I feel like I forgot how to play Zato.Xrd is the first fighter I've spent more than a week with since I started playing marvel in 2011, but learning this game is rough
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nuts.Pistachio_Nuts!
Member
Is venom one of axl's worse matchups ? It seems like I can't do a damn thing with all the pool ball volleys with axl.
I'm still only month 1 Slayer. BDC Mappa'ing around projectiles is going to take some more practice. But that's not what I'm worried about.
What I'm actually trying to stuff is the YRC. So like, StunEdgeYRC is what, about 16f startup. And it's the last 6frames that I'm aiming for. Since that's the YRC startup frames.
Rhapsody was doing a lot of BackDash,StunEdge>YRC. I think I was on the right track. I just need to double check the frames. Figure out if I was right, but delay was screwing it up; or if I was plain wrong. Then I need to figure out how I wanna play the footsies to dissuade/counterhit raw StunEdgeYRC.
And then I need to tighten up my general execution. Along with figuring out vs Ky combos. Can't believe we have no local Ky. All these o'14ers on that DLC technology.
What I'm actually trying to stuff is the YRC. So like, StunEdgeYRC is what, about 16f startup. And it's the last 6frames that I'm aiming for. Since that's the YRC startup frames.
Rhapsody was doing a lot of BackDash,StunEdge>YRC. I think I was on the right track. I just need to double check the frames. Figure out if I was right, but delay was screwing it up; or if I was plain wrong. Then I need to figure out how I wanna play the footsies to dissuade/counterhit raw StunEdgeYRC.
And then I need to tighten up my general execution. Along with figuring out vs Ky combos. Can't believe we have no local Ky. All these o'14ers on that DLC technology.
Venom has to worry about racking up the pool table. Axl starts the round ready to fight. Take advantage of that.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Where are you from? When I play I typically do super long sets so if you need more Ky practice I'm around. Ky gets play quite a bit at first but them people drop him once they realize all his cool moves tend to leave him open and he has to play pretty tactically overall. In a game like this that's typically what people DONT want to do haha
Nuts.Pistachio_Nuts!
Member
BDC anything seemed pretty difficult on that connection. Saw some missed Bites because of it.
Yeah, I started trying experimenting on what the proper distance was where I could get out those StunEdges in neutral. I started to get the feel for it later on. Fireball and frame traps is what I like most about Ky, and it's what I'm trying to work on the most. YRC StunEdge is way too good.
East Coast
Our resident Ky all-star is currently getting bodied by life. And SF4 update dropped around the same time Xrd hit. I think that stole away all our potential Ky new blood.
ShaperofStories
Member
Been playing this game for a few weeks now and just thought I'd put the word out that I'm down to play with any of my fellow gaffes at any time.
If any of you ever want to play, feel free to send me a FR. My PSN name is the same as my GAF name.
I'm excited to get some real matches going!
If any of you ever want to play, feel free to send me a FR. My PSN name is the same as my GAF name.
I'm excited to get some real matches going!
I've got a few scrub questions I want to ask that I really need answered regarding a few things.
- How do you all bait out jabs/buttons through block string pressure/tick throw/oki setups? I've been seeing myself get jabbed out of tick throw setups consistently and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong/underestimating the qualities of the characters in these matchups. For this discussion, I'm talking about doing dash up 5K or 2K with Elphelt then grabbing vs. Sol.
- Is the best option when being pressured regularly really to just block? Also, how do you know when to use what type of blocking? I've been playing against my brother as my primary opponent and I've noticed that the large majority of the time I'm able to block a lot of strange things only to get completely ruined by the "why would you get hit with that" options. It just feels like I get myself boxed in and don't try to press out for fear of getting blown up with a counter hit _____ into big trouble then when I get a breath of fresh air, I'm caught with my pants down. Admittedly some of this is due to unfamiliarity with the number of systems available to use in a match and losing track of them, but I'd really like to hear from folks what I should be doing in order to git gud.
- When on the offensive, it's as if I have shades of real legitimate understanding on how to pressure regularly but I autopilot to the last practiced block string or setup I attempted in whatever I was doing beforehand. How do you all try to keep things flowing during a set? What kind of practice do you do if any?
- Why does Sol low profile everything in existence between 2D and Grand Viper (does this also have invul on startup)? It feels like playing footsies with him at this level is useless as he eliminates a bunch of options when playing running spacing games with him. (El's 5S getting stuffed by it is visually dissonant and fucking garbage >:|)
- Elphelt's shotgun stance, how do I maintain pressure? Is it really about establishing Pine Berry traps (for crossups with running command rolls) and 5P chains canceled into her shotgun blast and reloading to continue said pressure?
- How do you all bait out jabs/buttons through block string pressure/tick throw/oki setups? I've been seeing myself get jabbed out of tick throw setups consistently and I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong/underestimating the qualities of the characters in these matchups. For this discussion, I'm talking about doing dash up 5K or 2K with Elphelt then grabbing vs. Sol.
- Is the best option when being pressured regularly really to just block? Also, how do you know when to use what type of blocking? I've been playing against my brother as my primary opponent and I've noticed that the large majority of the time I'm able to block a lot of strange things only to get completely ruined by the "why would you get hit with that" options. It just feels like I get myself boxed in and don't try to press out for fear of getting blown up with a counter hit _____ into big trouble then when I get a breath of fresh air, I'm caught with my pants down. Admittedly some of this is due to unfamiliarity with the number of systems available to use in a match and losing track of them, but I'd really like to hear from folks what I should be doing in order to git gud.
- When on the offensive, it's as if I have shades of real legitimate understanding on how to pressure regularly but I autopilot to the last practiced block string or setup I attempted in whatever I was doing beforehand. How do you all try to keep things flowing during a set? What kind of practice do you do if any?
- Why does Sol low profile everything in existence between 2D and Grand Viper (does this also have invul on startup)? It feels like playing footsies with him at this level is useless as he eliminates a bunch of options when playing running spacing games with him. (El's 5S getting stuffed by it is visually dissonant and fucking garbage >:|)
- Elphelt's shotgun stance, how do I maintain pressure? Is it really about establishing Pine Berry traps (for crossups with running command rolls) and 5P chains canceled into her shotgun blast and reloading to continue said pressure?
Might not be able to answer all of them but I'll try what I can.
1. A lot of it is conditioning. You have to sneak frame traps into your pressure either by delaying your gatlings a bit (not just rapid firing through the buttons) or using gatlings that just naturally frame trap (something like 2P 6P with Sol is an example of this. I have no clue on Elphelt) to make them want to and then get caught pressing buttons. Once you've taught them that pressing stuff is a big no-no, you can usually get them scared enough to not do anything, allowing you to grab.
Although personally I find that using the regular grab can be sort of risky in mixup situations because if the opponent is looking for it they can easily throw you first.
2. My defense is pretty bad so I probably can't answer this well, but it really depends. If your opponent does blockstrings that end in unsafe stuff a lot, keep it in mind and try to punish them. Don't be afraid to throw something out that's fast if the opponent ends on something that's minus on block. That'll require feel/looking up frame data of the character to get an idea. Don't forget that you can Deadangle with 6+2 buttons for 50 meter. It's a useful way to get people off and give you some breathing room. Don't forget Faultless Defense either. Using it in strings can push them out, and if they aren't paying attention, they might whiff a gatling because you pushed them out. You can then whiff punish them.
3. For blockstring mixups, you just have to sort of drill it in your head and pay attention, to try and get yourself to change things up. Experiment and dig through your character's gatling tables to get an idea of what you can chain into what to keep them guessing.
4. Regarding Sol, 2D is a very strong tool, but know that even if it low profiles stuff it can still be beaten out by other low hitting pokes. If he gets too 2D happy look to punish it with stuff that reaches low enough. A Ky I play with a lot will Greed Sever if he reads a 2D. Regarding grand viper, it has no true invuln, only low profile. If you're getting beat out by it a lot at neutral, he's either hard reading you and choosing to be ballsy, or he's being random. You can simply choose to wait and do nothing and see what he does, or even whiff a 5P in an attempt to bait it. If you block grand viper, it is a very easy punish. Heck, if it connects, you can burst him as he's rising up, and you can punish him before he comes down!
5. Dunno much about Elphelt so I can't really answer that.
1. A lot of it is conditioning. You have to sneak frame traps into your pressure either by delaying your gatlings a bit (not just rapid firing through the buttons) or using gatlings that just naturally frame trap (something like 2P 6P with Sol is an example of this. I have no clue on Elphelt) to make them want to and then get caught pressing buttons. Once you've taught them that pressing stuff is a big no-no, you can usually get them scared enough to not do anything, allowing you to grab.
Although personally I find that using the regular grab can be sort of risky in mixup situations because if the opponent is looking for it they can easily throw you first.
2. My defense is pretty bad so I probably can't answer this well, but it really depends. If your opponent does blockstrings that end in unsafe stuff a lot, keep it in mind and try to punish them. Don't be afraid to throw something out that's fast if the opponent ends on something that's minus on block. That'll require feel/looking up frame data of the character to get an idea. Don't forget that you can Deadangle with 6+2 buttons for 50 meter. It's a useful way to get people off and give you some breathing room. Don't forget Faultless Defense either. Using it in strings can push them out, and if they aren't paying attention, they might whiff a gatling because you pushed them out. You can then whiff punish them.
3. For blockstring mixups, you just have to sort of drill it in your head and pay attention, to try and get yourself to change things up. Experiment and dig through your character's gatling tables to get an idea of what you can chain into what to keep them guessing.
4. Regarding Sol, 2D is a very strong tool, but know that even if it low profiles stuff it can still be beaten out by other low hitting pokes. If he gets too 2D happy look to punish it with stuff that reaches low enough. A Ky I play with a lot will Greed Sever if he reads a 2D. Regarding grand viper, it has no true invuln, only low profile. If you're getting beat out by it a lot at neutral, he's either hard reading you and choosing to be ballsy, or he's being random. You can simply choose to wait and do nothing and see what he does, or even whiff a 5P in an attempt to bait it. If you block grand viper, it is a very easy punish. Heck, if it connects, you can burst him as he's rising up, and you can punish him before he comes down!
5. Dunno much about Elphelt so I can't really answer that.
Haha, no thanks. My attempts to get into BB have all ended within a couple days of starting for various reasons.
I think that's just the game. The guys I play IRL started off using Slayer and Chipp. Slayer guy has played previous GG iterations quite a bit, so he was/is wrecking us. I figured out some stuff against random Chipp teleports and started to beat the other guy super consistently. Fast forward a bit- he picks up Ky and I start losing a bunch as I have no idea what Ky's moves even look like given that I started GG with Xrd. After a little while, I'm getting more comfortable against Slayer and Ky, and I go to a meet-up to play marvel/GG, and a guy annihilates me with his 5-day-old Sol as again, I had essentially zero Sol experience up 'til that point. I suspect this will keep happening until I've played against every character in the cast a fairly substantial amount. I dread the moment where I lose to Bedman after grinding the game for a year due lack of MU experience, haha.
First, some info on throws and throw protection.
Throws, are instant in this game. Instant, as in zero frame, no startup. You do 4/6+H, the game does a state check, is anyone was in your throw range and is throwable? If yes, then throw; If no, then HeavySlash.
Throw protection:
6frames after leaving hitstun
5frames after leaving blockstun
9frames after getting up
Jump startup can not be thrown.
Some attack have throw invincibility. (If they try to throw you during said attack, they get their HeavySlash instead).
To sum it up:
When setting up a tick throw, your opponent has a chance to attack, jump, or even throw you before you are able to throw them.
Second, some Elphelt info:
2K is -1 on block. That's very risky to use as a tick option. If you tick with 2K, while inside Sol's throw range, that -1 means Sol gets a guaranteed throw on you.
5K as a tick option is fine. It's +1 on block. It's -1 on IB, but not many people can raw IB a punch/kick attacks. But it can happen.
I'm in training mode with El atm, and I got her frame data up. It seems that El is designed to have poor tick throws. All her plus normals are poor range, making it difficult to setup a tick around your opponent's throw range. On the other hand, if you do land a throw, she has very damaging RRC options.
Anyways, 2P is probably your best tick. It's +1 and chains into itself. So if you think your opponent thinks your going to tick then throw and he wants to mash against your throw, you can tick with 2P, then latechain into 2P again to beat his mash. You can set the training dummy's "Block Settings" to "First Hit Only" to practice the timing on a 2P late chain to 2P.
Elphet looks to be more geared towards overhead/low mixups and grenade shenanigans/zoning. You may need to adjust your strategy.
If you don't want to get hit, then you block. If you want to fight back, you Instant Block. If you're afraid of chip damage or guard bar jacking, you Faultless Defend. If you gotta block, then you block. But just blocking is not going to reduce your opponent's life bar to zero.
Without any specifics, I can't help you further. You are perhaps formalizing/overthinking things?
You got the part of the brain, the silent brain, that controls your breathing, where your feet land when you're walking, where your fingers go when you pick your nose. Then you got your talking brain, the part that can read, and you use to talk to other people, and yourself. You can think of your silent brain like the driver, and the talking brain like the navigator.
A lot of people fuck themselves over by backseat gaming themselves. When you're going some where and you got a guy driving the car, and a guy with the GPS. GPS-guy tells driver-guy to make a left on 1st street, and so driver-guy makes a left of 1st street. GPS-guy doesn't give a fuck how driver-guy does it, that ain't his business. GPS-guy doesn't care how fast driver-guy drives, or how sharp he takes that turn. GPS-guy just lets driver-guy do the driving.
Or at least that's how it should work. People fuck themselves over by trying to play with their talking brain. Talking brain doesn't know how to work these hands. That's silent brain's job. Too much school tests and homework, and not enough PE. People forget how to get the two brains working together. Silent brain doesn't talk. Talking brain has to STFU and visualize more.
Your "autopiloting" might just be your silent brain trying to answer a question. Try going to training mode with yourself as your opponent's character, and the training dummy as your character. Then run your own blockstring on yourself, and try to beat it.
Sol is high risk:high reward. He heavily commits to his actions, so if he hits you, it gonna hurt. But you can hurt him too. For example, Bandit Bringer (the big leaping fire punch) dodges all sorts of things and sometimes even crosses up, but it's a whole half a second of startup. If you weren't doing something (sometimes even if you were doing something) you got all that time to wreck him.
Sol is easy to play by design. He does well till about mid-level play, where people have an idea of what Sol does, and are better in control of their own characters. The point where people can out zone Sol is the point where every Sol player asks themselves, "Do I really want to play a character who has to DP?"
For most Sol players, the answer is "Yes!"
Nothing is forever. You keep attacking, you're gonna get pushed back. Wanna reset pressure, then you have to take a risk. If he blocked everything you threw at him, then you either take the chance to run back in, or let him out. Maybe your mixups/baits need some work?
Grenade + ShotgunRoll sounds bad. El's Shotgun cmdThrow is pretty good. It's redic slow for a throw, but her run is fast and carries alot of momentum. So you can start the cmdThrow from far away and slide in during the startup.
Again, without specifics, it's hard to help. Overall, it sounds like you need more time and experimentation with Elphelt. El has some incredible mobility coupled with those damn grenades. Try leveraging those more.
FindMyFarms
Member
Anyone down for some late night xrd? My psn is same as my gaf, im on ps4
Air Recovery has 0 throw protection, none what so ever. But there is some strike protection.
This is why in higher levels of play, a delayed neutral tech is what you see the most. If you have not teched, then you can't be air-thrown; if they attack, then you tech.
Interesting new thing that I'm still getting use to in Xrd. In older Guilty Gears, some attacks had a blow-back property to them. If you get hit with an attack with such property, some backwards velocity would be added to your air tech. What this means is that a back air tech would send you flying waaay back, a neutral tech would send you downward and back (instead of just straight down), and a forward air tech would pop you up in the air, but you would not move forward if at all.
New to Xrd seems to be some sort of blow-up property. Neutral techs out of these moves will pop you up, as if you did a back or forward tech. Moves like Axl's UpChain followup to his GreenChain have this, and so does Ky's VaporThrusts.
This new blow-up property is really strong. In prior games, if Axl did his UpChain followup then went for a tech trap, you could neutral tech through his trap and potentially punish him. Now you have to take the trap or settle for a knockdown.
For any Axl player miffed that GreenChain no longer knocks down, it's because UpChain got this buff.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Playstation plus colors. Go to your ps plus section in the store
Elphelt and tournament stage are the preferred stages. Ky and Axl's are the ones with problems iirc.
Hellshingu
Member
Put in an order for my TE2 so I'll finally be able to get some matches in with you guys when they ship. (which seems like forever)
I am prepared to get bodied endlessly for not being able to play for so long.
I am prepared to get bodied endlessly for not being able to play for so long.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
KittenMaster
Member
Finally won a match online! Still new to the game so that's an accomplishment.
Got it. The PS4 really needs to fix it's store, it feels like it only works once out of every 4 times.
Thank you and everyone else that responded to my post.
I'll try and stream some matches whenever I play my bro next or whenever I get some PS+ to mess with so I have more examples of specific things I want to work on in my play, sorry for the general/over explained parts of that post. :lol
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Nothing is more annoying than fighting Chipp with Ky. You have to throw away how he's supposed to be played completely and play derpy