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Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- |OT| - Cross Play on a Heavy Day
- Thread starter Volcynika
- Start date
Yeah, Dustloop has problems. That's why I came here.
Karsticles
Member
One big issue in my Zato play is that I will only summon Eddie after getting a knockdown. I want to work on calling Eddie after 2S is blocked, and sometimes just throwing 236K out in the neutral. I've had surprisingly good luck with this second approach, but it feels scrubby and unsafe. Thoughts, gentlemen?
I'd love to see them.
The matches?
1. 2014/6/21 GGXrd Sasashima Leisureland casual matches Part 3
2. 2014/6/28 GGXrd Mikado 3on3 Part 1
3. 2014/8/16 GGXrd Mikado 3on3 Part 4
4. 2014/8/9 GGXrd Mikado 3on3 Part 1
5. GGXrd Mix Up Night #24 Part 3
6. GGXrd きっしー(MA) vs アクローマ(ZT)
7. Team St1ckbug - GGXRD - Biscuits v Mahouko / Zidane v Lance / HARD BREAD v Biscuits / LK v Apollo
8. 2015/1/4 GGXrd Nage Netplay lobby Part 1
All Zato vs. May matches, and Zato loses in each.
Karsticles
Member
RIP Community.
Edit: This first guy made a lot of mistakes, but he could have won those. He just made some poor decisions with his resources. Overextending Eddie, letting Eddie get hit during blockstrings, etc. His neutral was pretty solid, and I think you can learn from that still.
Edit: Guy #2 has a crappy neutral game. Most of the time he's flying in solo even though Eddie is available. You can't do that with Zato.
Guy in link 5 can't block for crap. He did great at the start, got hit once, and then fell apart. I just watched him get grabbed after a -K-. That's rather ridiculous (and I say that knowing that I got grabbed a lot during an evening in similar setups recently).
I think these Zato players all have major holes in their game that they cover up with Zato's fantastic setplay.
IMO, watch Ogawa, or watch no one. Anyone else just teaches you errors. Though I haven't seen MarlinPie or Sako yet, and I bet they are both good to watch.
Watching the first one, but going for a command grab after a blocked drill does not inspire confidence. That's like something stupid I would do.
Edit: This first guy made a lot of mistakes, but he could have won those. He just made some poor decisions with his resources. Overextending Eddie, letting Eddie get hit during blockstrings, etc. His neutral was pretty solid, and I think you can learn from that still.
Edit: Guy #2 has a crappy neutral game. Most of the time he's flying in solo even though Eddie is available. You can't do that with Zato.
Guy in link 5 can't block for crap. He did great at the start, got hit once, and then fell apart. I just watched him get grabbed after a -K-. That's rather ridiculous (and I say that knowing that I got grabbed a lot during an evening in similar setups recently).
I think these Zato players all have major holes in their game that they cover up with Zato's fantastic setplay.
IMO, watch Ogawa, or watch no one. Anyone else just teaches you errors. Though I haven't seen MarlinPie or Sako yet, and I bet they are both good to watch.
If your opponent is not punishing you, then I would think that it's your opponent who is scrubby, not you.
If you are repeatedly getting punished and continue to do so as if those punishes were flukes or luck, then yes, you would be the scrub.
edit: if your opponent is not a scrub, but simply lacks experience. then you could just keep doing it anyways, till he finds an effective punish / makes the right adjustments. Than, once he shows you the counter / new strategy you can begin work on a counter-counter / counter-strategy.
Karsticles
Member
Flux, here is a set of Ogawa against a great May player:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjvHUYZn-wQ&t=21m10s
I only skimmed, but Ogawa wins most of the sets I saw. After watching this, you will understand why I said not to watch anyone but Ogawa while learning Zato. ;-)
Also, Rhapsody can take note of how often Ogawa goes for command grabs. ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjvHUYZn-wQ&t=21m10s
I only skimmed, but Ogawa wins most of the sets I saw. After watching this, you will understand why I said not to watch anyone but Ogawa while learning Zato. ;-)
Also, Rhapsody can take note of how often Ogawa goes for command grabs. ;-)
It's more that I want to learn optimal Zato play. I don't want to learn stuff that works only against scrubs. Even if it gets me wins, if I know that it will make me lose against a good opponent, I don't want to do it because it will develop a bad habit.
If your opponent gives you an opportunity, then why would you not take it? He made a mistake, and you took advantage. This is fundamental.
I dunno. Can't see what you're doing. Whatever success you're having with raw summon may be legitimate, it may not be legitimate. The question, "is raw summon good or bad?" can not be answered alone. What was the game state? What were the player's mental state?
Karsticles
Member
Now that we're in Community, would folks here be interested in a GAF ranbat? I'd like to gauge interest.
The scenario is this: I'm playing against Potemkin. He's about 1/3 of a screen away. Neither of us are doing anything. We both have meter. I 236K. Is that a good, safe play for starting my offense? It felt like it was against Rhapsody whenever I did it.
Also, mental states are not a major part of my gameplay. I play fighting games like chess: I want to find the option that will 100% win the match for me in any situation, not the stuff that will win because my opponent made a mistake. That's why I tend to play zoners over rushdown.
There is knowing how to play well, but abusing opponent stupidity (like hypernima against me with Faust's dive kick - why do I lose to that over and over?), and then there is learning to play stupid because you think stupid things are the best way to play the character. I want the former, not the latter. If 236K gets me in against a bad opponent, I don't mind that. I just don't want to rely on it, find out it's bad, and then feel like I lost a major tool.
The scenario is this: I'm playing against Potemkin. He's about 1/3 of a screen away. Neither of us are doing anything. We both have meter. I 236K. Is that a good, safe play for starting my offense? It felt like it was against Rhapsody whenever I did it.
Also, mental states are not a major part of my gameplay. I play fighting games like chess: I want to find the option that will 100% win the match for me in any situation, not the stuff that will win because my opponent made a mistake. That's why I tend to play zoners over rushdown.
That's the thing about mental states. Usually for me when I play online, I tend to play very reactive to things I'm currently anticipating. I tend to be very cautious on button presses since I second guess if the button is going to happen in time online (me getting CHed while trying to punish P4U rolls...).
It kept working on me because of that. Even if it's a bad idea on the best players, sometimes you have to see what you can get away with on your current opponent. I can see why you want to learn it like Chess, but I don't think people and games will all work that way.
For me, you have to figure out what works, and you can't show your entire hand right away. This is why I'm actually better at longer sets. I usually lose the early ones (not on purpose) just because I try to see what works and what doesn't.
Ah, potemkin, now we have some details to work with.
Eddie summon is 38f total.
Sildehead (fullscreen ground unblockable) is 25f.
38f - 25f = 13f reaction/input window. If you're out of each other's reach, and all he's doing is focusing on trying to catch your summon while buffering the motion for slidehead, then he might catch you. Offline, likely not. Online, absolutely not. If he catches you, then you're just being predictable.
If you don't want to take a guess on the mental side of things, then you do nothing but build your meter. If you have life lead, you continue doing so. The onus is on Potemkin to take a risk. If you do not have life lead, then once you get 25% meter, YRC will let you get away with a lot of stuff. Ex: summon eddie, YRC in reaction to slidehead startup, punish slidehead.
Eddie summon is 38f total.
Sildehead (fullscreen ground unblockable) is 25f.
38f - 25f = 13f reaction/input window. If you're out of each other's reach, and all he's doing is focusing on trying to catch your summon while buffering the motion for slidehead, then he might catch you. Offline, likely not. Online, absolutely not. If he catches you, then you're just being predictable.
If you don't want to take a guess on the mental side of things, then you do nothing but build your meter. If you have life lead, you continue doing so. The onus is on Potemkin to take a risk. If you do not have life lead, then once you get 25% meter, YRC will let you get away with a lot of stuff. Ex: summon eddie, YRC in reaction to slidehead startup, punish slidehead.
Kars, have you been to a tournament IRL, yet? Because that mentality, while admirable, will see you going 0-2 often and getting very frustrated with FGs. You can't deny the messiness of human interaction in FGs. Even in Chess, your opponent is going to have an inclination towards what type of Opening, Middle and Endgame they'd look to play, and you're going to have to be able to deal with the variety there. It kinda goes back to what Juicebox was talking about in the FGW thread.
Karsticles
Member
My approach has worked pretty well for me. In Marvel, a lot of people I have played with knew that if Dormammu was on the screen safely, it was game over. 90% of my opponents learned to blow X-Factor to get in on Dormammu, because in many matches I did actually achieve perfect control. Obviously, I am not as amazing as someone like FChamp, but just look at how someone like him can hit an opponent once, and then it's game over because you never even get the chance to attack again. Perfect control. That's what I want with Zato. When I watch Ogawa play, I often see him achieve it, and he consistently achieves it with an orgasmic grace and elegance against all but the highest level players.
Thanks for that breakdown. 38F...wow, it does not seem that slow. I need to do it and watch the animation again. Riskier than I thought, even with that data.
Yeah, I have.
Have you seen ChrisG play Morrigan, and FChamp play Dormammu? Daigo play Ryu when he was worth picking? That is the approach I am talking about. I'm not imagining some world of perfect control. It exists. Just like M2K achieved with Marth in Melee at one point (and then lost it, it seems). In Chess, you might mind an inclination, but it's never your key to winning at high level play. You account for everything. That's what I attempt to achieve when I play. Total control, account for everything. Always the best option, no response. I think that's Zato's approach to the game, as well.
The goal may not be perfectly achievable (human error), but it is what I strive for. If it isn't even possible for a zoner to have perfect control with perfect play, then the zoner isn't worth picking (Dhalsim, lol).
I went 4-2 at UFGT9 when I went, IIRC. My perspective is healthy and realistic. :-D It may just not be how you play or like to think of the game. In FGW, we are talking about what drives people to play fighting games competitively. For me, having this perfect mastery and control is my drive. If a game has no one capable of achieving this kind of perfect control (lol Tekken), I don't enjoy it that much. I went like...2-60 against Rhapsody yesterday, and after an hour-long break I went back to playing. Don't worry about me getting discouraged! My life has been one long series of miseries, so I am used to being disappointed by failure.
Other characters capable of perfect control that I did not mention in this post:
Painwheel (Skullgirls)
Sentinel (MvC2)
Karsticles
Member
I have heard lots of bad things about Kuro buttons. Squeaky, tend to get stuck, and inconsistent are a few words I've seen thrown around.
Karsticles
Member
Speaking of, how do JP arcades deal with stuff like sticky hands?
Do tell.
I'm still using my HRAPV3SA from last gen.
I can't exactly pinpoint why, but I feel like I'm slamming against the gate more than any other arcade stick? I think the resistance on the spring is about the same as all the other ones I've used, so I'm not sure why.
It's definitely a lot louder when I play on that controller than past HRAP, Madcatz, and Qanba. Even my friends didn't like that same problem too.
But who knows, it could've been that one batch. The Madcatz PS4 controller is amazing though.
Karsticles
Member
Do you mean the Madcatz PS4 stick?
Huh, that's interesting. Compared to the other sticks I've owned, the thing I immediately noticed with my HRAP V4 was that the stick itself was way looser. Like, sometimes movements will still register as high jumps when I'm just trying to pull off a 22 motion. I found it more sensitive than the Sanwa and Seimitsu sticks I've used in the past, but I'm getting used to it. I'm totally fine with the buttons. Less sensitive than Sanwa; feels about the same as the Seimitsu pushbuttons that I inserted into my custom.
Edit: Actually, slamming against the gate more might be exactly what you mean and what I'm saying, and I misinterpreted. Yeah, wobbling it around right now, that's definitely the impression I get, and it's in line with the increased sensitivity I feel it has.
Yeah, the Madcatz PS4. Has the best build out of all the arcade sticks I've used.
Yeah, the buttons aren't too bad. And if anyone's curious on silent buttons, the resistance on the kuros aren't as bad as silent sanwas. I've gotten used to them, but those have a lot of resistance. I mostly bought them so I don't bother people late at night when I'm playing, but they do get annoying for characters with button holds or piano inputs.
I think for the kuros, my friend's buttons ended up not squeaking later on.
Good arcades (which most are) are very well-maintained and the staff regularly checks the buttons and sticks to make sure stuff is ok. You can usually see a little paper sheet on the cabs where the staff records how often they're doing maintenance checks. That being said, there are some sketchy placed where things are in poorer condition, but (maybe for that exact reason), they tend to not be places where a fighting game player would go in the first place. Arcades are usually pretty clean- some places even have individually wrapped wet towels for people to freely use. The main problem is arcades tend to be smoky as hell (I don't mind smokers much myself, but something to be aware of if you're more sensitive to it).
irfaanator
Banned
yea I'd be interested
I also very interested. Organize us, Karsticles senpai
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I was thinking of organizing a follow-up NeoGAF tournament to Busaiku's "Exciting GAF Air Dashers" of 2013 after Uniel was out in NA, featuring Swiss brackets for a bunch of anime games (P4AU, BBCP, Xrd, Uniel, Skullgirls?), but I dunno if there'd be enough interest in it to bother.
Karsticles
Member
Thanks for sharing the interest, gents! If we can get 8, I'll start a sign-up survey like I did for Smash.
The rules would be similar to the ones posted here, if anyone is curious:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144465310&postcount=2
The rules would be similar to the ones posted here, if anyone is curious:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=144465310&postcount=2
They let people smoke in there?! That is very unexpected.
Depends on when it would be.
A set of eight OBSF-30s is about $20 shipped. When the tradeoff is between a $150 stick that you might not like the buttons on and playing on pad for 2-3 months because the $200 stick won't ship anytime soon, I'm taking my chances.
(I happen to like Kuros. YMMV.)
It doesn't seem slow, because eddie can potentially get a hit box out 20f before Zato recovers from summoning him.
SolarKnight
Member
I WOULD be interested but life has gotten pretty busy lately which is why I couldn't be active for the Smash 4 ranbats more than about once a week. Altho to compensate I have a feeling that whoever enters these ranbats would be more dedicated to them than the people I couldn't play in my Smash 4 bracket. Well, there's that and the fact that the last time I tried playing Gaffers online it was awful altho I guess it could be better now? Would need to give it a second shot.
Karsticles
Member
Why the hell can Zato jump-cancel cl.5S?
I got all excited when I learned that Zato can jump-cancel 2D. Then I learned that Zato's jump cancels are shit (except after 6P anti-air, obv.). I was hoping it would be like a Storm or Rocket Raccoon jump-cancel that leads to super quick double overheads. Instead it's just...what? What is this for? I have never seen Ogawa use it, so maybe the answer is "nothing". The best I got was cl.5S, j.P on a fuzzy guard (those exist in Xrd, right?).
On a positive note, I got Ogawa's corner pinwheel pressure strings down in training mode. I don't have a good conversion off the pressure yet, just knockdown into meaty drill for now. Baby steps...
I got all excited when I learned that Zato can jump-cancel 2D. Then I learned that Zato's jump cancels are shit (except after 6P anti-air, obv.). I was hoping it would be like a Storm or Rocket Raccoon jump-cancel that leads to super quick double overheads. Instead it's just...what? What is this for? I have never seen Ogawa use it, so maybe the answer is "nothing". The best I got was cl.5S, j.P on a fuzzy guard (those exist in Xrd, right?).
On a positive note, I got Ogawa's corner pinwheel pressure strings down in training mode. I don't have a good conversion off the pressure yet, just knockdown into meaty drill for now. Baby steps...
Karsticles
Member
Noisepurge
Member
Finally bought the game from the weekend deals for the PS4!
Gotta bolt this Fighting Commander 4 pad's PCB into my existing stick next to triplemod it
Gotta bolt this Fighting Commander 4 pad's PCB into my existing stick next to triplemod it
Wait, the first blocked hit? Nah, it's last blocked hit. I don't know any game where you are locked in to what you first blocked as.
Karsticles
Member
Karsticles
Member
So I'm a very casual player and decided to pick this up recently, mostly because I really liked the art direction and I had a good time with the first two BlazBlues and every literation there was of Continuum Shift. (Skipped Persona 4 Arena tho due to region lock and never played a Guilty Gear before), and holy crap I can't tell you when the last time was I just had this much fun with a fighter.
Everything just works so well, the fighting and especially landing a Dust feels really satisfying, and even if the mechanics seem overwhelming at first I feel like it's really easy to get into them after playing through the tutorail and doing some Arcade and MOM. I'm so glad this went on sale because with my habit on fighters I probably would have just meant to buy this into infinity and never pick it up, and then just wait for the next version to repeat that process again.
Everything just works so well, the fighting and especially landing a Dust feels really satisfying, and even if the mechanics seem overwhelming at first I feel like it's really easy to get into them after playing through the tutorail and doing some Arcade and MOM. I'm so glad this went on sale because with my habit on fighters I probably would have just meant to buy this into infinity and never pick it up, and then just wait for the next version to repeat that process again.
Ace Harding
Member
I'm pretty much the same as Dunkley above - casual player, will play a lot more single player than most, loved Blazblue but never got really good at it. So I picked this up on sale but haven't had a chance to play it yet.
The problem is I don't have a stick for PS4 yet. How awful is the dualshock for fighting games, and this one in particular?
And speaking of sticks, do PS3 sticks work with a PS4? Want to buy one but I don't want to spend a lot on something brand new.
The problem is I don't have a stick for PS4 yet. How awful is the dualshock for fighting games, and this one in particular?
And speaking of sticks, do PS3 sticks work with a PS4? Want to buy one but I don't want to spend a lot on something brand new.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I have a real arcade pro V3 SA and love the Sanwa buttons and stick. I used the same exact setup for my custom cabinet, so how is this in comparison?
I need to buy another stick for PS4 compatibility, while I sit around salty that I can't upgrade my cabinet to PS4 yet.
Karsticles:
Heh. I know a GG player that used to have the same mentality as you. We used to go back and forth about this all the time. He's recently come around to admitting that one of the biggest lessons in FGs he's learned is that the optimal response in a circumstance isn't necessarily the best option 100% of the time. In tournament play, especially. It was a struggle for him to adjust to that notion. Showmanship, brinksmanship... general deception... there are many human meta-elements involved in winning a match that can't be accounted for by idealized, structured, set plays. "Total Control" doesn't exist, because there's more to winning than what the game's code presents. You can't account for everything.
It's funny you mention Daigo, because he is the absolute paragon of breaking the confines of idealized play. He just does it when the moment is right. M2K also openly admitted that he didn't break through until he started utilizing more intuition. He was always known for robotic play and optimal decision making - but he didn't win for a LONG time. Forget top 3 placing, he was just plain BAD, early.
Good luck to ya, though. If it's working for you it, it's working for you. It's an interesting discussion to have nonetheless.
Heh. I know a GG player that used to have the same mentality as you. We used to go back and forth about this all the time. He's recently come around to admitting that one of the biggest lessons in FGs he's learned is that the optimal response in a circumstance isn't necessarily the best option 100% of the time. In tournament play, especially. It was a struggle for him to adjust to that notion. Showmanship, brinksmanship... general deception... there are many human meta-elements involved in winning a match that can't be accounted for by idealized, structured, set plays. "Total Control" doesn't exist, because there's more to winning than what the game's code presents. You can't account for everything.
It's funny you mention Daigo, because he is the absolute paragon of breaking the confines of idealized play. He just does it when the moment is right. M2K also openly admitted that he didn't break through until he started utilizing more intuition. He was always known for robotic play and optimal decision making - but he didn't win for a LONG time. Forget top 3 placing, he was just plain BAD, early.
Good luck to ya, though. If it's working for you it, it's working for you. It's an interesting discussion to have nonetheless.
I like how every community uses the term fuzzy guard differently, I've seen a lot of confusing conversations because of it. In KoF fuzzy guard is when you switch between standing and crouching very fast after guarding an attack to keep the block stun property(so you can't be thrown). And it's probably something completely different in VF.
Spuck-uk
Banned
Similar in VF, its a quick duck guard to stnanding guard when you're at disadvantage, so you duck a throw (which are 0-frames in later revisions of VF) and highs, but stand again quickly enough to block any mids.
Its something entirely different in Guilty Gear though.
VF is where the term comes from. It refers to how most mixup situations, the mixup options do not occur on the same frame. For example, the possibility of a low may occur during a certain window of time, and the possibility of a high occurs during a different window of time that does not overlap with the window for a low. So if you understanding the timings right, you simply block low during which a high could never occur, and vice versa.
And then other communities imprecisely understood this to mean some sort of alternating/mashing between high and low guard, and then it stuck.
And then other communities imprecisely understood this to mean some sort of alternating/mashing between high and low guard, and then it stuck.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
I cant imagine it would be anything other than square