I gotta agree with this. Fighting games already have a ridiculously high skill gap between new and experienced players which is why we rarely see new people pick up fighting games, doing things like low frame window reversals just extends that even more when the whole point is to make it accessible. In tournaments, they wll find a way to get the reversals 100% of the time or near it or find a way around it (e.g. plinking)
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Guilty Gear Xrd -SIGN- |OT| - Cross Play on a Heavy Day
- Thread starter Volcynika
- Start date
I gotta agree with this. Fighting games already have a ridiculously high skill gap between new and experienced players which is why we rarely see new people pick up fighting games, doing things like low frame window reversals just extends that even more when the whole point is to make it accessible. In tournaments, they wll find a way to get the reversals 100% of the time or near it or find a way around it (e.g. plinking)
You want a good balance of BOTH. Execution barriers that require some level of dedication are what make fighting games, fighting games, and gives them their athletic quality. I've already explain why 2 frame reversal windows are a benefit - because it gives precedence to offensive flow at lower levels. That shit SUCKS in SF4 and is a large reason why intermediate play is so frustrating and the game feels "random". You're at a point where you've decided to learn to play the game more optimally, but most of the players you face are not committed to making optimal decisions, so you get punished heavily via Ultras and Reversals for trying to apply an ideal that doesn't fit the opponent's understanding of the same game.
It's all about picking and choosing where you want your players to apply their dedication to find some modicum of success and flow in your game. FRC was dumb because it was an execution barrier that literally gated-off the functionality of your character. They've completely addressed this with the new RC system in Xrd. Is it really a bad thing that a fighting game is forcing Lower-level players to be defensive on oki?? You really want Arc to do more to limit skill gaps? Do you not see what a slippery slope this is?
The message is clear: in "Guilty Gear you must respect offense. If you choose not to, that's going to require some effort on your part.".
I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that. If you do, play something else!*
*not a message to you
Unfortunately there still remains a big fat streak of elitism running through the FGC that would prefer the former. Prior to the recentish "Fighting game renaissance" places like Shoryuken used to be rampant with it, as if arbitrary barriers to entry somehow served the then dwindling FGC, its got a lot better recently but its still there (moreso online than in person, like a lot of negative behaviour I suppose).
You press S while holding j.1K, you can also choose to press P while holding j.1K instead if that's easier for your button layout.
Your goal is to faultless defense cancel the startup of j.1K, so you need to be holding any two buttons that will give you FD. Since you'll already be holding K for the attack, you'll want to use K+S or K+P to activate FD. You don't have many frames where you can cancel into FD, so just leave as small a gap as you can before you start holding the second button.
I don't really care about fighting games' athletic qualities, but I agree with pretty much everything else. You definitely pick and choose which things should be strict and which shouldn't be and what you choose affects how the game is played at different levels. Invincible reversals are generally so binary that adding a consideration that you might miss it kinda adds something at least, at least for lower levels of play. (At least in DFC you could throw reversals, although the defensive OS in that game made throws an easy way to lose offensive momentum and you could beat most reversals by reacting to the clash anyway.)
Mmm, I guess you could say the same about mashing to tech. I just don't find that as interesting because you don't choose not to tech because you're afraid you might miss it. You just either miss it or don't.
Anyway I'm really sympathetic to the argument against barriers of entry. I also am kinda divided on the reversal window thing only because they're so punishable and only a few characters have meterless reversals anyway. I like strong knockdowns though so I'm fine with a small reversal window. :3
This is my mindset, completely. It is why I find no problem with the simplified moveset of P4A and its introduction of hold to tech and, to a more extreme end, the basic concept of Divekick,
Open up reversal windows on wakeup, but keep the buffer window small to prevent easy reversals after blockstun, and I'm cool with that.
Edit: I'm mixed on Guilty Gear not having hold to tech. If people always did hold to tech, you're going to eat some easy punishes with how it works.
Edit: I'm mixed on Guilty Gear not having hold to tech. If people always did hold to tech, you're going to eat some easy punishes with how it works.
I'm not sure what you mean since I'm really bad, but isn't that a choice the player has to make? Even with hold-to-tech in Blazblue, there were times when people late teched anyway to avoid mixups right? I'm pretty sure there are also situations in Melty where it's better to just let yourself hit the ground than try to air tech.
even the best players will occasionally miss reversals in games where they are both difficult (1f) and extremely important (required to escape 1/4 life tick setups), eg. Super Turbo.
attempting a reversal there carries a very real risk that you might miss regardless of how often you practice, sometimes even for reasons beyond your control (frameskip).
fighting games are not intellectual exercises. if you want to play chess, go play chess. there is an execution tax on all the actions you perform, which is why it's so exciting to watch people who are good at the game just move faster and do more than you can WHILE still maintaining that mental edge in spacing, mindgames, reactions etc.
historically, the most exciting games to play and watch test both your ability to play the mindgames that FGs are notorious for AND balance a consistent ability to execute under heavy pressure. it's the interplay between both of these elements that makes it so fun at high level.
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making games accessible (especially this genre) is no trivial problem to solve. how easy should easy be?
should DP just be 1 button? should holding it down just force it out on the first possible frame at all times? lots of people stop playing because they can't even get DP motions down right.
how about optimal combos - if pros can do X damage in Y situation, and i can recognize that situation, should i be rewarded with the same damage just for that? should i have to worry about doing something suboptimal and easier because i'm nervous or unsure? is it a fun thing to test that ability on the fly?
we all have a different comfort zone here. personally i hate having to memorize long strings of character specific garbage (it's something i really hate in sf4 for instance because all characters have different reel / knockback scripts). it's not something i enjoy in fighting games at all.
attempting a reversal there carries a very real risk that you might miss regardless of how often you practice, sometimes even for reasons beyond your control (frameskip).
fighting games are not intellectual exercises. if you want to play chess, go play chess. there is an execution tax on all the actions you perform, which is why it's so exciting to watch people who are good at the game just move faster and do more than you can WHILE still maintaining that mental edge in spacing, mindgames, reactions etc.
historically, the most exciting games to play and watch test both your ability to play the mindgames that FGs are notorious for AND balance a consistent ability to execute under heavy pressure. it's the interplay between both of these elements that makes it so fun at high level.
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making games accessible (especially this genre) is no trivial problem to solve. how easy should easy be?
should DP just be 1 button? should holding it down just force it out on the first possible frame at all times? lots of people stop playing because they can't even get DP motions down right.
how about optimal combos - if pros can do X damage in Y situation, and i can recognize that situation, should i be rewarded with the same damage just for that? should i have to worry about doing something suboptimal and easier because i'm nervous or unsure? is it a fun thing to test that ability on the fly?
we all have a different comfort zone here. personally i hate having to memorize long strings of character specific garbage (it's something i really hate in sf4 for instance because all characters have different reel / knockback scripts). it's not something i enjoy in fighting games at all.
SF4's problem is not the reversal windows but the low risk/large reward. Wake up SRK with FADC either meant you got out of a mix-up if they blocked or you had a opportunity for big damage if they didn't. Locking that behind execution isn't going to solve the problem but reward the dumb, technically proficient players.
Frankly, execution should be a barrier just so we can avoid input shortcuts like SF4 has. I'm not against it entirely and I'm not opposed to small link windows to add a little more damage to a combo but bnbs should be relatively easy. Same goes for reversals, I'd just rather reversals not be so powerful.
Same with P4A. Even when the system is hold to tech, people will still utilize late teching in certain situations. A bad decision still remains a bad decision, whether the system is mash to tech or hold.
Hey guys, just a quick update on the PS3 and PS4 versions of the I-No and Faust system voices, they are currently swapped on the SEN Store, so for example, if you want to buy the PS3 I-No system voice, make sure to buy the PS3 "Faust" system voice instead, and vice versa.
Same for the PS4 versions of those 2 DLC.
Once the SEN Store updates on 1/13, that should be fixed. So you can buy them both as normal.
Thanks, guys!
Same for the PS4 versions of those 2 DLC.
Once the SEN Store updates on 1/13, that should be fixed. So you can buy them both as normal.
Thanks, guys!
To clarify, I think hold to tech is good. If GG ever had it, it would be nice, but I hope that people still time their techs.
In GG, you aren't invincible to things like throws after tech, just like blue bursts.
Isn't this already how things are? 2 frames window for wake up only, otherwise, there's no input buffer outside cancels. Increasing the wake up window alone shouldn't miss with reversals window during blockstun.
Yes. But I think some games just increase the input buffer itself and call it a day. Just saying I would not want that approach.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
The people that get scared off by having to go to practice mode were never going to be competitive in the first place. It doesn't matter how thin you make the execution barriers.
That why there's a Story Mode.
Pretty much this. I mean the Giant Bomb QL on this game pretty much sumes it up.
The whatever percentile goes for games for the instant gratification, just shoot dudes, in this context as these dudes said "Just mash it out". I think execution barriers should still be there and strong, I kind of think that it should only be like that for the Offensive though. I mean teching and reversals are in states you are already disadvantaged, your techs and reversals can be read already and adding complexity doesn't really do much for those. On the other hand, personally I don't like automation of things like links and such for offense, although stuff like IAD is fine, execution and user error, I think have great place in advancing competition and result in some of the hypest moments in them.
it doesn't matter if they are going to be competitive or not you can still have a game played casually by people who have no interest in going to tournaments. This is the problem with fighting games and it's hardcore audience, they only want it to be for them and only them and everything must be made with a competitive mindset without realizing we are the minority.
Why do people keep on throwing out variations on this false dichotomy as if the only options are "Push button to win" or "100 hours in practice mode"? Theres a huge excluded middle there which is what people are talking about, not these reductio ad absurdum extremes.
-tetsuo-
Unlimited Capacity
Why?
nobody wants to relive the glory days between cvs2 and sf4, where you couldn't buy a stick without mail ordering from MAS and finding people to play an afternoon of 3s was a herculean task.
casual players don't give a shit about the systems anyways. just make it look good, provide a compelling cast of characters, and invest in teaching them how to play. so long as they find the game approachable, some fixed percentage of them will stick around.
casual players don't give a shit about the systems anyways. just make it look good, provide a compelling cast of characters, and invest in teaching them how to play. so long as they find the game approachable, some fixed percentage of them will stick around.
To quote, "That is such bullshit."
Edit: The poster I responded to put forward the argument that there was no point bothering to mollify execution based barriers to entry because there were only two types of players those who wouldn’t bother with practice mode and only wanted the story and those who would practice until they could surpass any execution barrier i.e. a false dichotomy. And as I said in my post, that poster wasn’t the only one to advance an argument based on a similar false dichotomy. Even if I had ushered a dichotomy in, it would be exactly that, a dichotomy, not dichotomies. The execution barrier on grammar is a bitch.
Because it's just another one of those binary distinctions that people in these discussions like to use to help pillar their positions that are completely false.
In this very thread I talked about how I thought FRCs were a silly barrier despite the fact that I executed them fine in +R. That was before this discussion even started. I guess I hate accessibility, and don't want the games to cater to newbies, huh? I'm not the only one that feels that way about FRCs and I know more than most, that a game isn't competitive if people aren't playing. The point that people like me are tying to make is that accessibilty can easily become a slippery slope if taken too far and rob a fighting Game of some of it's most rewarding aspects. AT SOME POINT you have to start holding people accountable for fulfilling their own potential in a medium and that's a large part of what competition does. Continuously lowering the bar hurts that. You WANT high-level fighting games to be some display of dedication. That DOESN'T mean they shouldn't cater to casuals - casuals just shouldnt determine the integrity of how your game plays because they ultimately don't care.
addyb
Member
Ordered this from VG+ yesterday (I'm uk based) I've not played a fighter since SF4 and never played a GG game before so looking forward to this. I'm ok ish at these types of games. I'll never be an expert as I'm too old and don't have the time to dedicate to just one game. As long as I can pull off some specials and a few combos I'll be happy.
Really looking forward to giving this a blast.
Really looking forward to giving this a blast.
The point isn't to cater to the casuals you are over-dramatizing my point. My point is to lower the barrier of entry to a high level from a low level. And I dont know why you are taking it so personally when you said yourself how you disliked FRC's and their barrier but there are people who felt things like FRC's are a necessity to "make the game have more depth" and I am targeting them. Yes there should be dedication for a higher level of play for a game, yes there should be practice for specific high level aspects of a game, every competitive game has this. But when you block lower level players to reach a higher level of play from basic aspects of gameplay by instituting complicated controls, how is that logical? My point is to make your game able so that lower level players are not forced to spend months to learn the basic level of 1 single basic aspect of gameplay. Freshmaker said "The people that get scared off by having to go to practice mode were never going to be competitive in the first place.". I felt this to be false because there are people who picks up a fighting game, wants to play a fighting game. They want to enjoy the game and experience everything it has to offer. Their level of competitiveness may differ than the normal hard core crowd who enters every tournament. but that can always change. They may want to start going to tournaments but "welp before I do that, I have to spend 5 years to learn basic level of high level play". This sucks. Flat out.
Hm. I honestly don't care about trying to "gather" new players by lowering execution barriers. When I complain about things like 2F reversals and FRCs, it's because Ido not like them.I do not like having to spend hours in training mode just to master executing a simple command.
I do not play Fighting Games to practice FRCs, 1-Frame Links, and Reversals, for the sake of practicing them. I play fighting games to fight other people. There's already enough that needs be to practiced by the very nature of the game; combos, block strings, Mix-up Blocking, theory, and tech. So, when a game has a nonsensically difficult mechanic for the sake of being difficult, I get annoyed.
This is why everyone needs to get into SkullGirls. You need to drop GG, make Mike Z finally do something effective about overly long combos, and then we can all live happily ever after.
I do not play Fighting Games to practice FRCs, 1-Frame Links, and Reversals, for the sake of practicing them. I play fighting games to fight other people. There's already enough that needs be to practiced by the very nature of the game; combos, block strings, Mix-up Blocking, theory, and tech. So, when a game has a nonsensically difficult mechanic for the sake of being difficult, I get annoyed.
This is why everyone needs to get into SkullGirls. You need to drop GG, make Mike Z finally do something effective about overly long combos, and then we can all live happily ever after.
Ain't nobody tryna play skullgirls. Fuck outta here
Tyrant Rave
Banned
Nah I'm good. I like this game.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
You really telling folks in a GG OT to stop playing the game? The heck?
brollyman2k
Member
not sure what happened with that whole Skullgirls derail but i got this game last night and am enjoying it quite a bit! any word on if the Xrd sticks are gonna be in stock again?
Small reversal window in any game is amazing. "THE GAME ACUTALLY HAS OFFENSE I HATE IT". This doesn't do anything for newer or experienced players. It cuts out the bullshit. It isn't super turbo where a 1 frame reversal dp meant the world. Unlike SFIV where meaty's don't exist because you have a reversal window of 10000 frames, and DP's are rewarded while mashing during a block string.
Hellshingu
Member
Mark said if there is enough demand there should be another batch possibly made but it would most likely be first come, first serve. As of now the P4U stick is the only one available for preorder with a late January release window. I wouldn't expect them to have any Xrd stick until around that time, if at all.
I agree with these. The more things that encourage people to block honestly or play more honest in general, the better.
shadowstar
Member
Why is that in every fighting game topic someone has to argue about execution barriers? Why can't there be some games like this and easy ones like Smash (well Brawl). Not everything has to be made for everyone.
Do people whine about Quake vs Halo?
Do people whine about Quake vs Halo?
In games like SF4 where there is a large reversal window I don't see the problem. This is just an opportunity to learn how to bait. If a player keeps getting combos interrupted then first of all they are missing the link. Once they know that they should either try an easier combo they can hit consistently or bait the the reversal and get a free punish. Not really seeing the problem. Small or large window, player can adjust.
Anyway, OT
I am really liking Xrd, mainly because I feel so cheap playing it lol. The game seems to encourage the most dirty, borderline unfair pressure and I love it. Somehow Blazblue never clicked with me but something about Guilty Gears system works for me in all the right ways.
Anyway, OT
I am really liking Xrd, mainly because I feel so cheap playing it lol. The game seems to encourage the most dirty, borderline unfair pressure and I love it. Somehow Blazblue never clicked with me but something about Guilty Gears system works for me in all the right ways.
My personal image of smash made me double take
Have you played any air dasher or "anime" fighting game before (that isn't Marvel)?
It's my first GG, but experience from P4A and BB has helped me get used to how things work way faster than if this were to be my first ASW game. Still need to get used to certain things like one-button throws and the difference in Bursts.
This is my first Guilty Gear and I think it's a lot of fun. I think there are a lot of people who feel the same way.
Cyborg
Member
No, never
Karsticles
Member
Fucking January.