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Halo 4 |OT2| TURBO
- Thread starter Tashi
- Start date
It's especially frustrating because they'll come back with a completely new game that's too far along in development to change when it turns out the fans hate it, so they'll put out the game the way it is, go dark for another year or two, and then try again with something else.
If 343 wants Halo to have a strong competitive future, they need to make the community a more important part of the process of developing the game from the beginning. It's not enough to put release the game, then spend months and months after launch trying to go backwards and make it something people want to play, they need to get it right from the beginning. If they spend years working on the game in isolation before the playerbase has any kind of chance to respond, making a successful game is going to be impossible.
Asking people's opinions from internet ain't the way to do it though. Not any better than focus testing shit. IMO of course. Too many opinions, difficult to set values to them (is my opinion that Halo is BTB more or less valuable or important than some people's will to return to Halo CE arena-style? (EDIT they're not mutually incompatible ofc)) and if you're going to value certain ones more, why don't you ask directly from certainly people?
And i figure they know, or should know, opinions of many communities and whatever. Perhaps they're listening to complaints about Halos (all, not just 4), perhaps not. But at this point, asking any more is no use.
Now if you think they should communicate ideas beforehand... well, we're back at business realities, contracts, NDAs, scheduling, all that.
EDIT oh and i reckon they're simply too big to have active dialogue with people during design process. They're too inflexible, i think. I might be wrong of course. But if so, why hasn't it happened early on?
And i figure they know, or should know, opinions of many communities and whatever. Perhaps they're listening to complaints about Halos (all, not just 4), perhaps not. But at this point, asking any more is no use.
Now if you think they should communicate ideas beforehand... well, we're back at business realities, contracts, NDAs, scheduling, all that.
EDIT oh and i reckon they're simply too big to have active dialogue with people during design process. They're too inflexible, i think. I might be wrong of course. But if so, why hasn't it happened early on?
Well the posters here had been claiming that whenever good maps come up, people pick the worst possible ones, like Settler.
So I'm saying, with people with bad enough taste to actively keep playing this game, what do you expect?
Was really a more of a half serious post.
This right here is why i'm opposed to voting and veto systems of any sort in games.
Popular vote doesn't mean it is good (of course, neither does it mean it is bad either).
If there is voting, people will vote shit. If there is veto, people will veto good stuff. And these things influence playlist designers (How can they not? If statistics show Bad Mode on Bad Map was popular, it should be probably be probably increased, since that keeps people happy, no?). In the worst case anyway.
[EDIT i still remember people voting all sorts of shit in Battlefield 1942, if servers had voting enabled.
I do kind of oppose game browsers too, since high quality vanilla servers are practically impossible to find, regardless of game. BF3 for example had too many of these "Metro-only" servers. Or if there were good combinations, they had 500% time length and tickets. Long doesn't mean it is fun in Battlefield, it means the losing team quits earlier... (This same also applies to Halos)]
I'd very much prefer rigorously tested and tailored playlists, offer only the most suited and best combinations. Of course this requires high map quality... but then that should be sought in the first place. Super-high quality over quantity, even if it leaves only a very few choices, as long as those choices play very well and are fun.
(Of course, i'm undermining my complaint with that i'm one of those who vote Settler. But then i find Halo 4 map selection so bad, i'll just vote the one where i think i will have most fun. Not to mention Settler is one of the most clearest maps in Halo 4, simple colors and neither team blends in them. Ain't that pretty but neither it is ugly, unlike Vortex or Meltdown or that horrible map set in a spaceship.)
Computer
Member
I know for a fact that 343 has set up Skype interviews with different Halo players and asked tons of question about what they like and dont like. My cousin was one that was interviewed. It lasted about 3 hours. He is an old school Halo player that did not like Halo 4. He said they ask him a lot of questions about how he felt about MLG and competitive Halo.
So, there is interaction with communities. So perhaps they're actually listening.
(Though turning Halo 5 to heavily MLG-Halo-/arena-shooter-like Halo could be a nightmare for me, quite likely anyway. I'm too big a fan of Halo 3 equipment (conceptually anyway, and absolutely not AAs) and large sandboxes with unnecessary weapons, and so big fan of BTB... Just about every thing is an opposite of arena-shooter-like Halo, or at very least not very compatible).
As for why not to communicate that there is communication: People are going to pissed off about others being privileged, why they're not being listened and all that shit. I guess.
(Though turning Halo 5 to heavily MLG-Halo-/arena-shooter-like Halo could be a nightmare for me, quite likely anyway. I'm too big a fan of Halo 3 equipment (conceptually anyway, and absolutely not AAs) and large sandboxes with unnecessary weapons, and so big fan of BTB... Just about every thing is an opposite of arena-shooter-like Halo, or at very least not very compatible).
As for why not to communicate that there is communication: People are going to pissed off about others being privileged, why they're not being listened and all that shit. I guess.
The Real Napsta
Member
Halo 3 equipment was awful.
It was mostly a pause button for terrible kids losing BR fights.
It was mostly a pause button for terrible kids losing BR fights.
I said conceptually. EDIT especially since they were things to fight over. They were too common, treating them more like power-ups or power weapons would have made them even better, rare but relatively powerful.
Balancing wasn't perfect by any means. And they got rid of the most interesting piece, the Flare due to some silly glitch... yet there was the Gravity Lift...
All of the equipment could have used smaller area of effect, make them require more precision. As it was, a single Bubble could shield your entire team, a single Power Drain could drain every single enemy, and so on. The Trip Mine was, in retrospect, actually rather fine, it could have used some more anti-vehicle damage though (any more damage to players would have been a no-no though, otherwise it would have been instant-kill device, as seen in Halo 3 beta).
EDIT and the Bubble Shield could have used round emitter, as it had during Halo 3 alpha as seen in one ViDoc. The thing rolled down a hill. Combined with slightly shorter duration or destructibility like Halo Reach Drop Shield, and smaller area, it would have been very interesting device, especially if physics impulses would have pushed it around...
Balancing wasn't perfect by any means. And they got rid of the most interesting piece, the Flare due to some silly glitch... yet there was the Gravity Lift...
All of the equipment could have used smaller area of effect, make them require more precision. As it was, a single Bubble could shield your entire team, a single Power Drain could drain every single enemy, and so on. The Trip Mine was, in retrospect, actually rather fine, it could have used some more anti-vehicle damage though (any more damage to players would have been a no-no though, otherwise it would have been instant-kill device, as seen in Halo 3 beta).
EDIT and the Bubble Shield could have used round emitter, as it had during Halo 3 alpha as seen in one ViDoc. The thing rolled down a hill. Combined with slightly shorter duration or destructibility like Halo Reach Drop Shield, and smaller area, it would have been very interesting device, especially if physics impulses would have pushed it around...
Saw these linked in Gaming Side. They're pretty hawt, hope they aren't too old. They make full size posters, too!
http://imgur.com/a/Hj5tq#STWzpna
http://imgur.com/a/Hj5tq#STWzpna
Radar Jammer... can't even recall its effect on the game. It was removed due to the same glitch (enabled double jump) that afflicted Flare, if i recall correctly. Though i think Power Drain had that glitch too, but wasn't removed...
Regeneration was horrible. It was like the Bubble Shield but better because you could shoot from its area of effect. I remember in that one gray-walled map with Flood spore pods, pre-patch it had a Flare and it negated Regen's advantage pretty well (can't see, can't shoot, no matter you regen a lot). Post-patch that map was pretty shitty. Unfortunately it was an example of rock-paper-scissors but in that map's case, it was justifiable.
Flare's main problem was its enormous blinding radius. Had it been smaller, and a tad shorter duration (more like a flash-bang grenade), it would have been very interesting tactical tool.
Yeah I saw this on reddit. Pretty hawt indeed.
User 73706
Banned
The first one looks nice because of how minimalist the ring is in the first place, but the others kinda fall flat for me. They're using the silhouette of a Halo 3 Chief asset for Halo 2, and the "OC" work is largely simple geometric shapes - seriously, what's up with the glassing beams on the Reach poster?
Prinz Eugn
Member
Really? While people are talking about customs this weekend?
How often do you play Halo 4? When is the last time you've played multiplayer and for how long? When's the last time you've played Spartan Ops or Campaign?
I'm pretty sure Halo 4 is perfectly fine when you have a decent team and can vote to play decent map and game combinations, but then again I only know that from actual experience.
l Zealot l
Member
Their awesome.
Yeah, the glassing beams stuck out the most to me. I didn't notice that the H2 one used an H3 silhouette, but tbh I can't think of an iconic pose for H2 that would work for the minimalist style of the posters, certainly not the one with 2 SMGs since they go over his chest and it'd just look like a blob in his chest area. So I'll give the maker the benefit of the doubt there.
You and your "actual evidence", pfft!
Obviously we need more posts from people saying how bad the game is from the people that never play it!
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
No, it is perfectly fine, you're right, but I was originally responding to the complaint that people kept picking bad maps.
Prinz Eugn
Member
So how often did you say you play Halo 4? Maybe you would make confusing misstatements less often if you played the game we're talking about.
I still think Veto is better than nothing, because you still have sometimes when the game/server will repeatedly put up legitimately bad maps, so there has to be a way to get around that.
In a perfect world, the server would just have us all play perfect maps, but it doesn't work like that. Voting is the opposite extreme and just as bad. I thought Veto was a decent compromise. It's even better when you can only veto once like in Halo 3. That way you can veto legitimately bad maps, but you still have to live with whatever comes up after the one you vetoed.
So basically you get what the server gives, but with a bit of a failsafe so that you don't have to always get stuck with bad maps and no say in it.
Not near as much as Halo 3, and only fairly recently (within the last month). I'm not sure what the issue is with the statement?
Instead of just picking a random thing I say and misunderstanding it, try to understand the context. In this case, the context was somebody was complaining about having other players pick bad maps, and I gave a half serious reponse that was because they have bad enough taste to play Halo 4, so they must have bad enough taste to pick it's bad maps (which is most of them imo). I say half serious because yeah, you can play on some decent maps if you get a party, but that wasn't really relevant.
Of course playing in a party instead of with randoms is better, but I wasn't talking about that. Why did you assume that I was?
And stormtrooper made a really big deal out of it. Not sure what that's about.
Hydranockz
Member
'Having friends to play with' shouldn't be the basis to having fun in a halo game ffs.
Referring to this:
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Damn near bought Mortal Dictata today. Ended up deciding against it. I can't believe I would see the day that I didn't buy one of the Halo books on release day, let alone months after release. What a stinker.
Thanks for this.
Those look fantastic. Really debating going somewhere tomorrow and getting Halo CE/2 printed out for me. Damn.
Thanks for this.
Those look fantastic. Really debating going somewhere tomorrow and getting Halo CE/2 printed out for me. Damn.
-- Aye, I hope that is something that can be improved on, especially as 343i was very good at producing content leading up to Halo 4. I would surmise that the difficulty is producing content that the fanbase wants and available man-hours to devote to it.
-- It's as good a time as any to ask this question then: What would you like to see in new Sparkasts (but being realistic about the demands on studio personnel's time during what is obviously a very intense work period)? What topics would tickle your fancy as a Halo fan, and who would you like to see on it? (I'm cognizant of the fact that the last Sparkast was over a year ago).
Prinz Eugn
Member
My experience in Halo 3 and Reach was similar; friends make Halo infinitely more enjoyable. And it shouldn't, but to dismiss the only players left as having bad taste when you've barely played it is not only ignorant but insulting to those of us who do play it.
Oh really? So you've played most of them? With a party? Which playlists?
The issue is that if you've barely played the game you have no real basis for having, much less expressing, meaningful opinions about it, especially when it comes to multiplayer experiences. Instead, you are apparently insulting ("...people with bad enough taste to actively keep playing this game") those of us that actually do still play it. Awesome. Seeing as you have no idea what the game was like more than a month ago, I'm not sure why you think you can extrapolate the tastes of people who are "left."
Halo 4 has serious issues, but it also has good parts, which 343i has fortunately been emphasizing lately with the marginalization of Infinity (which you never even apparently got to experience in full). So... I'm going to go with the people who are still playing Halo 4 or have returned actually have taste that is pretty okay.
Orochinagis
Member
Looks like playing Halo with a group is a some sort of sin or automatically makes your arguments invalid
l Zealot l
Member
Halo 4 still peaking around 20k on the weekends?
TWO BLAINZZZ
Neo Member
Yea its around there on the weekends. It pretty much leveled out after COD: Ghosts came out.
Alsoooooo, my brother who plays halo too just got this sick killimanjaro in team snipers the other day. Check it out if you're bored!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_TgQIptn60
Hydranockz
Member
How's about instead of saying you need to have friends to play with otherwise you haven't gained worthwhile multiplayer experience and instead separate the social experience from a gameplay one.
I've almost exclusively played Halo games with a minimum of one other person. That doesn't just mean I have any better or worse of an understanding as to how good or bad some maps and playlists really are.
Yeah, it is a way better game to play in a group. That has fuck all to do with Halo though.
I've almost exclusively played Halo games with a minimum of one other person. That doesn't just mean I have any better or worse of an understanding as to how good or bad some maps and playlists really are.
Yeah, it is a way better game to play in a group. That has fuck all to do with Halo though.
YourExWife
Member
That's not the point. The point is if one hasn't played decent maps/gametypes because one has only played maybe a dozen games ever and doesn't have voting power to decide one's fate when one does play, one isn't necessarily qualified to comment on the quality of said maps or gametypes in the multiplayer aspect.
Until extremely recently, the guy had literally never played the game multiplayer, but made the same comments and statements about the gameplay, map design, weapons, etc ad nauseam . The issue isn't whether the maps are all "bad" (they're not) or not, it's that a person has been having similar discussions and opinions for months without ever touching the game. Even when others point out mistakes/innacuracies, quite literally every other post in the thread for pages at a time is the same malarkey from the same person.
Eugn may have been a little harsh, but this is the same crap that went on with him from day 1.
Devolution
Member
Throwing people into a game that's already 450 - 120 is a great idea.
Ugh big team snipers? Another great idea.
Ugh big team snipers? Another great idea.
l Zealot l
Member
At least it's consistent I suppose haha.
I don't mean to be rude to the person, but that seems pretty stupid.
It was something you could potentially control and time though. Don't know how many games of isolation were swung by a team timing and controlling regen spawns.
I've not played Halo 4 recently. Guess I'm waiting on this BTB update.
Devolution
Member
Still better than loadouts and ordinances that do this.
The Real Napsta
Member
Very true.
I liked equipment even when it was first introduced. You could be strategic and get them before opponents, but you weren't screwed if you didn't. They just supplemented combat a little bit. You weren't depending on having them like many players are with load outs. And better yet, they took like a 60-90+ seconds to respawn so there was a long "cool-down" with them. I also think all the ones that remained in the final version of the game were great. The grav lift was the most interesting and makes way more sense than jet pack. Jet pack was cool for shooting grunts in campaign, but never needed to be in MM. The grav lift served the purpose of expanding map movement for a temporary amount of time without breaking the flow of the game. New map movements became important strategies from which teams could benefit, and the opponents had to be somewhat aware of this. For instance, you could get up to laser tower fast on that map with the gate. Another is that you could get from froman to the hole in that wall (and the bubble shield and shotgun) on the that other map.
Equipment was great, and I think player retention between halo 3 to reach and reach to halo 4 proves this. People knew the game was being dumbed down. Go back to a system like equipment and let the players be creative. Don't pander to unskilled players. Make the game simpler, but more elegant.
can't remember the map names, sorry
Equipment was great, and I think player retention between halo 3 to reach and reach to halo 4 proves this. People knew the game was being dumbed down. Go back to a system like equipment and let the players be creative. Don't pander to unskilled players. Make the game simpler, but more elegant.
Outsourcing has, historically, led to nothing but bad maps. They just need to get their shit together and figure out how to make a website. Step 1: have a single minded approach and go with that. Everything is a mashup of mobile and desktop that it is a nightmare.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Are you getting upset over people complaining about a Halo game you've put a lot of time into that they have next to no experience with? Just accept you're in the vocal minority breh.. Your voice doesn't matter!
;b
You know what was lame?
- Terrible Halo 3 BR
- Poor netcode
- Sluggish gameplay
- Inconsistent weapons
- Regens and Bubble Shields that spawn so damn frequently all over the map allowing players to camp locations and drag out fights even longer than we've ever known.
One shitty experience.
And if you disagree with that, then throw in "comparatively" (to the two games before it).
Like this..... I almost forgot about the shitty player habits that came from H3 Equipment.
You guys paint them in a positive light, but this was frikkin frustratingggg..... Who the hell wants to have a 10 minute 1v1 with someone in a 4v4?
Why did you list 4 major problems with the game before you talked about equipment? This argument doesn't really make sense to me. These are buffs that last for a short time and have long respawns. Power drain was probably the only one that was too prevalent, and even that was easy to avoid, you could also drain a shield via grenades and a few br shots in the same amount of time.
You're exaggerating. No one is having a 10 minute 1v1. No one is even having a 30 second 1v1. Halo 3 equipment is a good example of innovating without changing for the sake of change. They weren't global changes across the board. Each map was different and they were even optional so they could easily be relocated or removed.
They weren't annoying as you think they are at all.
e:
To add to what Nebula said. People timing regens on isolation may have happened sometimes. I would be surprised if it happened that much to be a significant complaint or game changer. When it did happen though it was because people were being smart with what was available. It was a limited resource just like a sniper rifle or a rocket launcher or a vehicle. You sound like you're complaining about the random pub who poops out a bubble shield in the middle of the flats. So what. Ignore, wait, kill him later. It's not a constant problem like it is with a load out. And I know I'm comparing equipment to something that was developed in a later game, but just looking back on Halo 3 alone I don't see a problem with it.
I knew somebody was going to say it eventually.
You've utterly and completely missed the point of my post, and I'm done trying to explain it.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
It never surprises me how we've clearly been playing very different games.
Equipment is different because you can choose when to use it. That's like getting a Camo and using it whenever you want (ie: Active Camo AA except it was a one-off (Bungie even complained about this because people would just die with them)). In the grand scheme of things, Equipment lead to some frustrating moments in Halo 3. As far as respawn times, I don't know about that.. Each map felt like there was an abundant supply of Equipment you could use. Just because there weren't 5 Regens and only 3 doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. You still had Bubble Shields spawning, Power Drains and Grav Lifts, all which broke the flow of combat and broke map control, going against what previous Halo games were all about. Equipment was overpowered for the very reason of using it whenever you wanted without a timer attached like a Power-up.
Because you have to take the game as a complete package and how everything impacts the gameplay experience.
Power-ups. We need more Power-ups.
Equipment is different because you can choose when to use it. That's like getting a Camo and using it whenever you want (ie: Active Camo AA except it was a one-off (Bungie even complained about this because people would just die with them)). In the grand scheme of things, Equipment lead to some frustrating moments in Halo 3. As far as respawn times, I don't know about that.. Each map felt like there was an abundant supply of Equipment you could use. Just because there weren't 5 Regens and only 3 doesn't mean it wasn't a problem. You still had Bubble Shields spawning, Power Drains and Grav Lifts, all which broke the flow of combat and broke map control, going against what previous Halo games were all about. Equipment was overpowered for the very reason of using it whenever you wanted without a timer attached like a Power-up.
You're right, I was exaggerating with the 10 minute 1v1s, but to say "no one is even having a 30 second 1v1" with a serious face is kind of shocking. You've never had a fight that dragged on because people were camping the Regens/Bubble Shields?
Equipment was unnecessary. They could've just added more Power-ups instead of only having the 2 (OS/Camo) we've had since 2001 lol. That's one of several things 343 did right, and going forward its something we need to see more of.
I don't usually ask this, but what playlists did you frequent and what rank were you? If you never saw these things then it has to be because you weren't playing competent players. Not talking crap, just to understand because this shit was extremely problematic and rather commonplace from my experience.
I've been sitting on it for some time now and thought the time was right. I hope I wasn't premature in my delivery.
I was 45+ in 3 or 4 playlists. My highest was 47 in TS. MLG, objective, lone wolves.... through 2 accounts i probably played like 10,000 games.
I don't think equipment broke the flow of combat at all. Changing your destination to get a bubble shield when it spawns is the exact same thing as going for snipe every 90-120 seconds. Also, you can't call an ordnance a power up then say the power drain isn't. They are the exct same thing. You use them when you want. I really don't see the difference between vying for an overshield and vying for a bubbleshield pick up. What's the difference between using it immediately or using it in a pinch? You're still directing the flow of combat towards an item or goal.
Well you were just in time to post it when I wasn't here. Take that as you will.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
I know that, but you need considerably more skill to use a Sniper than you do a Bubble Shield.
Because you can see when people have OS, Camo, etc., but with Equipment that would be like saving an OS that no one knows you have for when you're about to steal a flag, get shot once then activate the OS to make an easy cap. You may not see a problem with this, but to me that leads to some frustrating moments.
With Equipment it all becomes a guessing game because anyone can have any Equipment, and multiple people at that, but with Power-ups only one person has them at a time before a new one is in play. Huge difference.
EDIT:
AA's and Equipment both shouldn't return, at least for base gameplay and Matchmaking. And "best" change to date? Well, I disagree.
You can also set up a temporary defensible position. It works both ways. I find it interesting unlike AAs and ordnances. best change to date.