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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Halo 5 IS the best multiplayer in halo. This is in spite of an (above?) average map set and map weapon placement. This is in spite of connection issues (which are sooooo much better than they've ever been!). This is in spite of forcing radar (up till now in every playlist). And in spite of many issues (some smaller, some bigger) with the handling of halo esports.

Every halo has it's issues, 5 (and 2 and 3) included. I think 5s issues get blown out of proportion because of how recent it released (rose tinted glasses / different gaming era / youth), and (sadly) because it's not bungied.
I'm sure disappointing single player impressions also cloud mp opinions to some extent as well.

Of course this is just one man's opinion and I didn't write paragraphs supporting each point so disregard as you please.

Kudos 343 (on the mp).
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Halo 5 gameplay + Halo 2 level map design and art + even more Forge improvements would make for the best Halo ever

The halo 2 maps wouldn't work with 5, but i think you meant the overall quality, so i agree.


Except Gemini. That POS makes riptide look like the pit/midship in comparison
 

wwm0nkey

Member
The halo 2 maps wouldn't work with 5, but i think you meant the overall quality, so i agree.


Except Gemini. That POS makes riptide look like the pit/midship in comparison
Yeah I meant quality, Halo 2's map design (except Gemeni and backwash) had a bunch of bangers and diverse art for the maps too
 

belushy

Banned
Wall jumping could honestly become a thing, especially as an alternative to Clamber. I could see some very interesting level design emerging from strategically positioned walls that allow the player to move around the map in unorthodox ways while still controlling their movement. Clamber's biggest problem is psychological, because even with a nerf to its vertical grab window, players still feel like they should be able to Clamber on things.

Wall jumping would be cool because the extra height you get could help the noobies with crouch jumping, but crazier routes could still exist thanks to a reduced clamber ability.

edit: Or a stamina system so you can't just clamber like a mad man. Could be tied to sprint and the wall jumping, too.
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Halo 5 IS the best multiplayer in halo. This is in spite of an (above?) average map set and map weapon placement. This is in spite of connection issues (which are sooooo much better than they've ever been!). This is in spite of forcing radar (up till now in every playlist). And in spite of many issues (some smaller, some bigger) with the handling of halo esports.

Every halo has it's issues, 5 (and 2 and 3) included. I think 5s issues get blown out of proportion because of how recent it released (rose tinted glasses / different gaming era / youth), and (sadly) because it's not bungied.
I'm sure disappointing single player impressions also cloud mp opinions to some extent as well.

Of course this is just one man's opinion and I didn't write paragraphs supporting each point so disregard as you please.

Kudos 343 (on the mp).

Good post.
 

Figments

Member
Has anyone else experienced a rank reset twice over the course of two days?

Because I swear I was at my 7th qualifying match last night, and when I got on like ten minutes ago, my progress reset to 0.

What gives?
 

link1201

Member
Has anyone else experienced a rank reset twice over the course of two days?

Because I swear I was at my 7th qualifying match last night, and when I got on like ten minutes ago, my progress reset to 0.

What gives?
There was a glitch they had to reset everyone's rank to fix apparently.


The March-April 2017 Arena Season initially kicked off on Thursday, March 9, but a few unfortunate technical snags necessitated a couple of additional tweaks to provide the best possible experience for players. With that in mind, this morning we relaunched the March-April 2017 Arena Season, which means that players will have to replay their placement matches in order to receive their CSR ranking. The good news is that anyone who had already played all ten of their placement matches will receive the emblem for this season, regardless of if they replay their placement matches.
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/march-april-2017-arena-season
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Has anyone else experienced a rank reset twice over the course of two days?

Because I swear I was at my 7th qualifying match last night, and when I got on like ten minutes ago, my progress reset to 0.

What gives?

I think it might just be a blip. I had two placement matches in Arena that were gone when I looked again and saw the Proving Grounds list was up, but when I went back a few minutes ago the placement matches (plus the extras I had accumulated) were back.
 
I'll elaborate because I don't shitpost for the sake of shitposting.

I think Halo works best with AR and Pistol starts. These are all around weapons that are competent in any given scenario, allowing the rest of the pick ups to offer you a different gameplay experience for a tradeoff. Halo 5 does this right, and I am glad that the Halo community has embraced Pistols as opposed to Battle Rifles. What Halo 5 then does wrong is make the Pistol a 5 shot kill. This does not punish the movement in the game. The Pistol also only has an effective range of 128 feet. This becomes a problem when people sit across maps and Thrust behind cover. High escapability + the inability to effectively punish players = this games biggest contradiction.

Let's look at the Assault Rifle. It is widely regarded that Halo is based around skill-based gameplay, and therefore precision weapons are said to "take more skill" than automatics. Therefore, the Assault rifle should not be as good as it is for how easy to use, yet it absolutely shreds players, and has an advantage over a player with a Pistol after performing a Spartan Charge. In every other Halo game, the player with the precision weapon (and host, lol) had the upper hand after a melee battle. This is obviously done to give lesser skilled players a fighting chance, but I think it does way too much body damage for how easy it is to use. That's the second contradiction. I do not think the AR should be useless like it has been in previous games, but I was able to nerf its effectiveness in custom settings by increasing damage resistance.

Going back to Thrust, I think this mechanic singlehandedly breaks Halo. First of all, I think one of Halo's strongest and most unique assets as a shooter were its strafe battles. You knew the other player was better than you depending on how good their strafe was. Thrust contextualizes that in a mechanic but doesn't truly add anything to the game that faster lateral movement wouldn't do. You can thrust way faster in Quake by jumping sideways, and I was able to replicate this with custom settings by increasing strafe movement. This is better for Halo because you can shoot while you do it, which makes it inherently offensive. But Thrust is inherently defensive because you cannot shoot while you do it. That breaks room-based maps by allowing people to move into doorway cover quickly; it breaks all the explosions in the game by forcing them to be overpowered to compensate for player escapability; and more importantly, it breaks level design because you are forced to scale maps at least 8 feet higher than normal to prevent players from making vertical jumps. There are two types of interaction in Halo: gun up and gun down. Obviously, your gun is up when you're not using any of the abilities, and it is down or unusable when you are. This means there are two different player states being accounted for in the level design.

Each block in this image represents 8 feet, or about the height of a Sprtan

This is how high the platform on the right had to be in every other Halo game (gun up state) to be inaccessible to the player (unless they had a Jetpack). That ledge is 8 feet taller than the Spartan

This is how high the platform has to be in Halo 5 to be inaccessible to the player. It's three times as high. If I lower that 1 foot, I can make it by Thrust Jumping.

Halo 5 is forced to be vertical not by principle of design, but by lack of any alternative, because otherwise players could just go wherever they wanted.

For example, look at how the Thrust affects the man cannon. While it is cool to change direction off of a man cannon at certain points, consider how broken Narrows CTF would be if you could simply launch the flag across the top of the map. Now consider what a designer has to do if they don't want people choosing wherever they want to go off of a man cannon.

Thrust doesn't operate within a vacuum. When combined with Sprint, Slide and Clamber, the player can scale ridiculous distances.

9YYQC3B.gif


This is 3 times as far as you can move in every other Halo game.

Clamber on its own is fine, but in conjunction with the rest of the abilities it also fundamentally breaks level design, not just by allowing players to circumvent pathways, but suggesting that they can go wherever they want. Thus, Halo 5 has bred a new age of Halo players who expect to fly around the map. Clamber could be fixed on its own by shrinking the window that you can perform it, but then people will have to relearn the mechanic and there will be complaints from those who expect to use it vertically instead of "making a jump that you feel like you should have made", which is what 343 said it would be in their first ViDoc.

343 has encouraged this "go everywhere from anywhere" mentality in their level design by delivering free flowing maps, making player movement unpredictable and combat unpunishable, for the aforementioned reasons. This doesn't mean anything in Warzone where it's just a big sandbox of Halo fuckery, but Halo's smaller player counts play best with strict and linear pathing that forces the player to move around the map in a controlled fashion (like most competitive games: CSGO, League of Legends, Overwatch, etc.) which then allows them to use their abilities situationally and not generously. The most ironic contradiction is that they're forcing the game to be competitive through branding and hosting their own pro league. Gaming is inherently competitive, but Halo is not really looking at successful competitive games and learning from them.

Instead of designing strict maps for Halo 5, 343 designed a strict spawn system that is ridiculously predictable. Simply by positioning yourself at the furthest possible point within the respawn window, you can force an enemy player to spawn wherever you want them to every single time. Halo has unfortunately never had a good spawning system (outside of Halo CE's 2v2 spawns), but the current iteration is problematic because of how fast players can traverse a map to collapse on these spawns.

These are just some of the inherent fundamental issues with the game beneath the surface. I dislike other things like the incredibly cluttered sandbox (the DMR and the SAW have absolutely no reason for existing) and continued prominence of double melees in Halo when Halo's melee combat is incredibly shallow due to auto lunge (there was no lunge in Halo CE and you could duck under melees in Halo 2).

Most of these issues are fixable without throwing everything in the game out, but I don't think 343 is willing to do any of it considering that most of these issues are not well understood.

One of the most thought-out and well-explained posts I've read in a while, good stuff. I agree with most, if not all you said, but some of the things you dislike, I'm currently fine with going forward (at least for one more game). Take thrusters, for example. I love them, but hate them for the reasons you've laid out. The points you bring up with the ease of survival vs the difficulty of finishing kills are valid and have been raised before, but I can't see that changing much with Halo 6. Things like lowering the kill time for the Pistol by increasing its ROF, lowering its shots-to-kill, etc., or making weapons more difficult to use, but Halo has a competitive stigma enough as it is. I'm not sure if they could afford to keep making the games harder and faster, but they could provide multiple offerings for different styles of play. As in at best, there might be hope for specific playlists that offer a more grounded and classic feel to Halo, such as what people have tested with various "Evolved" settings, and hopefully if the Custom Games Browser is improved upon that'll help with playing what you want, when you want on launch. Of course there's the issue of "which style do you develop as the core identity," but I just can't see them going back on sprint and other Spartan Abilities by default, yet. Maybe for Halo 7.

You bring up the melee system, something I've been thinking a lot about recently and would like to discuss more, but the changes I'd like probably wouldn't go over well with people because it's essentially #NotMyHalo. First thing I'd like to test is removing the lunge completely while providing a generous hitbox to melees. Think of Halo CE and Overwatch; no melee lunges, but their respective melee systems work out well imo. CE had different strengths and tactics to melees (double melee requiring 'nades (risk vs reward), faster AR melee, melee to cancel reload animation, etc.) while Overwatch has a generous melee hitbox. I'd like them to rethink the melee system, but at the same time maybe they could just lessen the distance without drastically overhauling it. I'd love to experiment with these things.

Lots more to dive into, but I'll leave it at that for now. Great post though with a lot to consider, so I hope people don't dismiss it because "I don't care, I love ____ and that's that."
 

Trup1aya

Member
FYI they did reset ranks twice. They ran into tech issues the first time, so they had to do it again

Also, proving grounds is fun as hell... and assassination central

Edit: ok. Since the update - automatic don't fire correctly when I hold down the trigger, the game crashes more, and I just had a bug where my controller settings changed mid match.

What's weird about the last one is my settings showed me still using bumper jumper, but the behavior was recon. I had to change the setting to recon, then back to bumper jumper to fix it.

I wonder if my install isn't fucked or something
 
FYI they did reset ranks twice. They ran into tech issues the first time, so they had to do it again

Also, proving grounds is fun as hell... and assassination central

Edit: ok. Since the update - automatic don't fire correctly when I hold down the trigger, the game crashes more, and I just had a bug where my controller settingst changed mid match.

What's weird about the last one is my settings showed me still using bumper jumper, but the behavior was recon. I had to change the setting to recon, then back to bumper jumper to fix it.

I wonder if my install isn't fucked or something
That control scheme issue happened to me a few times before on the previous build and a couple times on pc as well. Annoying. I though there was an issue with my controller at first.
 
Let's hear some proving grounds feedback already!

Only played a single game so far (strongholds... and we lost, although there were a few neat twists and turns), but I really really liked it! I already saw myself changing the way I played. I consciously used Sprint less of and much more strategically, which might just end up striking a nice balance between people wanting it gone and those who have embraced it.

I'll get more games in once I'm back from my weekend trip.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Only played a single game so far (strongholds... and we lost, although there were a few neat twists and turns), but I really really liked it! I already saw myself changing the way I played. I consciously used Sprint less of and much more strategically, which might just end up striking a nice balance between people wanting it gone and those who have embraced it.

I'll get more games in once I'm back from my weekend trip.

Man, it's so nice having a way to stay off radar without crawling. It's actually possible to juke people. I had some really nice double kills where I was able to break line of sight on folks who double teamed me, and beat them down.

You can also use the radar to draw people attention then mess them up when they come looking.
 
Halo 5 has a massively steep learning curve for new players. More so than any previous Halo. Plus, if you don't have a controller with paddles, you're even more at a disadvantage. I like Halo 5 - it feels great. However, part of me still longs for simpler times. Halo CE, 2 and 3 were so much simpler without thrust, abiliites, sliding, and clamber. Halo 5 is convoluted, but it works.

I suppose my request for Halo 6 is that they don't make it any more complicated. 343 should probably NOT tinker around with too many things. I can only imagine the uproar if they did and the balance already established in 5 was ruined. Just focus on making some really good maps and better playlists with better sandbox settings. Oh, and fix the dang aim settings to feel like previous halo games. That's it. Don't over think everything else. Streamline the shit out of what you have and make some of the best maps Halo has seen since H2.

If they can do that and improve the campaign, I think H6 will be the definitive Halo of all time. But that's always a big if with 343.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Halo 5 has a massively steep learning curve for new players. More so than any previous Halo. Plus, if you don't have a controller with paddles, you're even more at a disadvantage. I like Halo 5 - it feels great. However, part of me still longs for simpler times. Halo CE, 2 and 3 were so much simpler without thrust, abiliites, sliding, and clamber. Halo 5 is convoluted, but it works.

I suppose my request for Halo 6 is that they don't make it any more complicated. 343 should probably NOT tinker around with too many things. I can only imagine the uproar if they did and the balance already established in 5 was ruined. Just focus on making some really good maps and better playlists with better sandbox settings. Oh, and fix the dang aim settings to feel like previous halo games. That's it. Don't over think everything else. Streamline the shit out of what you have and make some of the best maps Halo has seen since H2.

If they can do that and improve the campaign, I think H6 will be the definitive Halo of all time. But that's always a big if with 343.

I agree, but would like to see the current moveset and controls tweaked. Stuff like sprint > thrust > slide can be really finnicky in 5, the slightest geometry bump or downhill slope screws it up. Controls need to be tweaked, especially autostabalize and auto stabalized jumps (honestly wouldn't mind if this was dropped) and ground pound vs aerial beat downs.
 
From the few matches I've played, there seemed to be less sprinting. When you can appear on radar for basic movement, there's little incentive to not sprint. Now that you're off radar for walking, there's not as big of a gap between the pace of movement while showing up on radar vs the pace when you're not appearing on radar, so I feel people will decide to sprint only when necessary instead of spawn -> sprint -> die -> repeat.

I actually felt more empowered as an individual than previously, which I think is a good thing when versing teams.
 

Karl2177

Member
Plaza is shit with the new radar. Coli and Truth were dec.

And rig is still rig lol


Edit 2: set the controller down for a second in a safe area. Teammate betrays me. Have fun playing a man down dickweed.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Only played a few matches, but I dunno. Felt like I'd be better off playing with no radar versus the modified one; it gives you so little info to actually be detrimental to my play style since it's easier for people to appear on the tracker and then quickly flank you or go another direction.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
I love that you can fly in off of sprint thrust slide and jump and not be on radar for the jump! Missed that when the crouch flying was removed but now It's back (without crouch!).

This modified radar seems like an excellent change. All Spartan abilities have to be more thoughtfully used, sprinting is much less common, and you can flank. It's fantastic
 

SCHUEY F1

Unconfirmed Member
Plaza is shit with the new radar. Coli and Truth were dec.

And rig is still rig lol


Edit 2: set the controller down for a second in a safe area. Teammate betrays me. Have fun playing a man down dickweed.

I had a teammate kill me yesterday because I took the BR before he did. I hate people.
 

Trup1aya

Member
There's a lot of ARing in the new playlist.

The way the AR is balanced makes it ideal for when you catch someone off guard- which is happening a lot since we've conditioned to stare at the bottom left hand corner of the screen for free info.

If this sticks, I'm sure AR use will decrease as awareness increases. A rebalancing of the AR would speed the process up though.

Only played a few matches, but I dunno. Felt like I'd be better off playing with no radar versus the modified one; it gives you so little info to actually be detrimental to my play style since it's easier for people to appear on the tracker and then quickly flank you or go another direction.

Yeah , it's definately detrimental to your play style if your play style is dependent on free information being spoon fed to you
 

Madness

Member
Only played a few matches, but I dunno. Felt like I'd be better off playing with no radar versus the modified one; it gives you so little info to actually be detrimental to my play style since it's easier for people to appear on the tracker and then quickly flank you or go another direction.

I think the same too. I would rather have it off. Just felt weird. I am conditioned to look at the radar if there and 95% of the time it was almost the same still. When they would fire, sprint, thrust etc. Maybe if this replaces the default radar altogether I can get used to it, but I would rather they seriously look at no radar altogether.
 

Cranster

Banned
My main issue with multiplayer in general is the maps. They are either too small, riddled with too many lines of sight or both in alot of cases. Whats even more frustrating is when you turn a corner, check both your left and right and then move forward only to get shot inin the back from the direction you jsut looked away from because they just spawned there.

The maps need to be more simplistic and 343i really needs to quit letting the pro team have a say in the map layouts as they are just too complicated at times. The Rig is a great example of this problem and it would be a much better map if the layout was more simplified.
 

mo60

Member
It looks like I maxed out around plat 3 in the proving grounds playlist.
9SH91WG.png

I was literally facing diamond players like close to the end of my placements. A lot of the matches I played in proving ground were not that fun because I keep on getting destroyed.
 

klaus

Member
It looks like I maxed out around plat 3 in the proving grounds playlist.

I was literally facing diamond players like close to the end of my placements. A lot of the matches I played in proving ground were not that fun because I keep on getting destroyed.

Ahh I really "love" the MM system in H5. I was doing great during placement matches in slayer, got one bulldozer after the other - and got placed Silver 2. My friend (who is rather new to the game and ended up mostly at the bottom of the leaderboard) got placed Silver 5 (we played 9 / 10 qualifying matches together) ;)

But that's not the end of the story: After the rank reset we played some more (and I rocked the newbs we played against even harder), and now I'm Bronze 6 (he got put in Silver 3). El oh el I say, el oh el.

PS: That's the only thing I demand to be changed for H6. Single player is cool, mp is cool, maps are cool, gameplay is cool, dlc is cool, weapons are cool & wz is cool
(it's not)
, but fuck that fucking aweful goddamn piece of shit matchmaking that fucking hates me to death.
 

belushy

Banned
Haven't played with new radar yet. Really dig the options in the settings, can really morph it to anyway we want.

Reminds me of the ball gametypes, with its various options to turn it into ricochet, Oddball, or assault. Wish we would have gotten more "modular" gametypes with options like that. I really want an easier way in future games to set up asymmetrical teams, and remaking past gametypes.

Also they should give us options like hiding Hud, and toggling hitmarkers(weapon hitmarkers, Grenade hitmarkers, and for fun melee hitmarkers.) Options and personalization should he vast, especially if the next game is on PC in full.


Edit. And just straight up rip the custom browser from Overwatch. Would love to be able to set up a map Playlist so you don't sit in the lobby for 10 minutes picking a gametype.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I think the same too. I would rather have it off. Just felt weird. I am conditioned to look at the radar if there and 95% of the time it was almost the same still. When they would fire, sprint, thrust etc. Maybe if this replaces the default radar altogether I can get used to it, but I would rather they seriously look at no radar altogether.

GaITg9Nl.jpg


On a related note, how is one supposed to climb out of rusty bucket tier with teammates like this sometimes.

Yep. I feel like if it's the pros that have been clamoring for this then they've been happy with no motion tracker altogether before. I guess the complaint is you have less warning if someone goes for the Spartan charge but running around sprinting seems like an easy way to get shredded by good players.
 

Trup1aya

Member
Yep. I feel like if it's the pros that have been clamoring for this then they've been happy with no motion tracker altogether before. I guess the complaint is you have less warning if someone goes for the Spartan charge but running around sprinting seems like an easy way to get shredded by good players.

Pros have tried no radar and it didn't really work well with the unpredictability SAs enabled. you could fly across the map before an enemy respawned and they'd have no recourse to orient and defend themselves.

This strangely feels more like classic halo because SA use becomes a strategic decision with trade-offs rather than a no brainer.
 
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