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Halo 5: Guardians |OT5| Is HaloGAF irrelevant now?
- Thread starter sir_dany12
- Start date
nillapuddin
Member
jk*
sensiblechuckle.gif
Fata1moose
Banned
The beginning of Halo's downfall
jk*
At least for multiplayer, campaign is the best,
MP is among the worst, basically the inverse of Halo 5.
MP is among the worst, basically the inverse of Halo 5.
User 73706
Banned
i think halo 2 trying to be Destiny 0.5 in development was halo's downfall tbh
Instead of h3a,Id rather have the mcc h3 rereleased as a standalone game, compete with h3s forge and theater.
The Anniversary games have always been incomplete and inferior copies of the games they honor, but with prettier visuals.
I just want the game i remembered.
There's a lot i didn't like about vanilla h3, but the community made it into an excellent mp game.
The Anniversary games have always been incomplete and inferior copies of the games they honor, but with prettier visuals.
I just want the game i remembered.
There's a lot i didn't like about vanilla h3, but the community made it into an excellent mp game.
Fata1moose
Banned
Modern Warfare remastered shows they can take a game from 2007 and give it a significant graphical upgrade. That plus Blur Halo 3 cutscenes would be pretty great. It would also be a chance to update MCC and right the ship. That game is still an insult to 343's customorers, they won't fix it though.
User 73706
Banned
oh man, just imagine the gravemind boss fight fakeout cutscene animated by blur
Halo 3's campaign in regards to story was the worst in the series.
Not joking!
Fata1moose
Banned
I think Halo Reach, 4 and 5 are all worse. Though 3 isn't great either.
Halo Reach should not even be mentioned because of the mess in continuity it left in regards to the Fall of Reach novel. Even then Halo 3 was full of lazy writing and strike's as Bungie trying too hard to conveniently close as many plot point as possible in as few levels as possible all while creating dozens of plot holes and sidelining other story elements introduced in Halo 2.
More Blur cut scenes would be sweet.
Fata1moose
Banned
Masterz1337
Neo Member
Back on the subject of H3 BR spread, vetoed posted this a while back
https://mobile.twitter.com/Vetoed/status/763775656928874497/video/1
It definately fits the definition of random, and at range, luck could trump skill. It would be fine if it just has the same spread every time.
The maximum and minimum constraints and their bullet placement *probabilities* may be consistent, but the results within the constraints are effectively random in their execution and communication to the player.
Your objection is akin to trying to correct someone saying that an ideal die will be a random choice between {1,2,3,4,5,6}, and you object saying that it's not an accurate assessment because the chances for each number will always be 1/6. This comes across as needless pedantry only to agree with the sentiment implied in the original statement anyway.
Also, Welcome to GAF!
EDIT: Put another way, the spread (commonly understood to be the final trajectory of the bullets) itself is random, but its dimensions are not. Would you approve using "grouping" instead, if we're gonna talk about "bullets"?
Thanks for the warm welcome!
To put this to rest, there is no disagreement here the bullets trajectory is inconsistent and feels random. Going with the chart above, the bullets do follow a pattern, which is why I dislike the term "random spread" even if it does have random elements. Random spread could be interpreted as that the bullets could all land red, yellow, or green ring, rather than falling into random locations within 3 angles. Inconsistent grouping as you suggest is probably a better term, but I don't see people really switching their terminology.
Hopefully that clears up my feelings on the actual language used to describe it. More importantly, and the point I was really trying to bring attention to, is the wildly different speeds that projectiles can travel. I believe this literally invisible mechanic brings a whole other other series of problems to the game, and further exacerbates the problem with the BR as your lead distance has to be readjusted when switching from other bullet based weapons with little to no visual feedback.
For me, the games stories have always been underwhelming other than H4, which in turn felt overwhelming with the sheer amount of plot lines and story elements crammed in.
It was Nylund's books that really pulled me in and sold me on the story, more so than the campaigns which never seemed to know where they wanted to be other than to string together the levels and "wouldn't this be cool!" ideas. That worked fine in H1 where it didn't ask to be taken to seriously, but then somewhere after they seemed to believe they were these great story tellers when in reality they were best at world building. I know H2's story is held in pretty high regard by many and I can see why given it's cinematic nature, but regardless how one feels about the contents of that story the Bungie games that followed it are wildly unambitious in their presentation and scope.
The same disappointment you remember, but with more flair!
Didn't see these posted earlier:
Josh Menke:
Thoughts on the settings update in the HCS thread
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...4-43eb-960d-7430b6e85150/posts?page=6#post110
(may need to scroll down to his post. Discusses radar, ARs, playlists affected, and more)
Matchmaking Feedback Update – April 10
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...8003-53dd-47ea-87a1-c0333b58ede3/posts?page=1
Josh Menke:
Thoughts on the settings update in the HCS thread
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...4-43eb-960d-7430b6e85150/posts?page=6#post110
(may need to scroll down to his post. Discusses radar, ARs, playlists affected, and more)
Matchmaking Feedback Update – April 10
https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/...8003-53dd-47ea-87a1-c0333b58ede3/posts?page=1
lol. I can't really say anything as Reach is probably my favorite Halo for multiplayer, although 5 is close behind. 3 just feels so fucking slow whenever I go back though, it's insane.
Masterz1337
Neo Member
Do you think you'd be able to identify why this is? It seems you have a preference for the faster paced games, and Reach is arguably slower than h3, with more constrained movement, longer weapon kill times, bloom for precision weapons, the armor abilities which encourage you to wait until they recharge to enter battle, and of course armor lock.
I have heard that reach plays much better with the bloom reduction gametypes and 0 bloom gametypes, but I have never gotten the chance to really play them. But I imagine those with the armor abilities removed makes for a much more fast paced enjoyable experience.
Don't just look at the chart, look at the video in the link beneath it. The only pattern is that each of the 3 bullets is confined to a specific ring around the center. Where each is placed within that ring is completely random- literal rng and impossible to predict or influence. As such, the first two bullets are generally close enough that the magnetism and hitboxes allowed the shooter to place his shots. At range, Whether or not the third bullet lands is totally up luck.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Vetoed/status/763775656928874497/video/1
If you take a pattern generated number, but multiply it by a randomly generated coefficient, the outcome is a random number.
Masterz1337
Neo Member
I'm not saying you are wrong in describing how the gun works, as I stated earlier I just think more accurate verbiage could be used to describe what goes on rather that let some interpret it that the error cone changes with every shot. That said, the video seems to prove not only that my understanding is wrong, but also that of the chart and from what I remember, Bungie's explanation as well.
The video shows that the pattern of the 3 rings of potential impacts not actually matching up with the chart of how the BR is said to work, as the 3rd 4th and 5th bursts seem to show a wildly different placement due to the error cone than it should. The video seems to stem from MCC.. and I do wonder if something got screwed up when they updated the tick rate to 60 with the math behind calculating the expanding error cone with each shot. I'd be really interested to see the same test done on the 360 version.
It wouldn't be the first instance of it happening in MCC, as certain weapons like the Carbine in H2 did unintentionally get a higher ROF. I imagine there are other similar side effects throughout the games... just not ones that are easily recognizable as an increase of ROF with the carbine. I could see that easily sneaking past both their testers and the general public. A quick search on youtube shows that no one has actually done any studies if there is a difference in BR spread behaviors in the MCC than the 360.
Again, not saying you are wrong about how the gun functions, and not saying the gun's projectiles don't land in random spots. Just that there should be constants in it's behavior, which your lined video seems to indicate do not either seem to function as intended or broke.
Hmm... now you've got me interested in firing up H3 to see if the behavior is any different in MCC. It's possible.
I think this chart it right in principle, but isn't to scale. I think the 3rd ring extends from the edge of the second ring to to border of the reticle.
Samurai G0SU
Member
from the MM updates about CSR:
lol
lol - okay
lol
lol - okay
VincentMatts
Member
The MP maps were some of the best ever. Its really just the guns that were bad.
I wish 343 would just learn that a low population in a playlist can stem from more than just people seeing a low number. Where it's positioned on the list, how different it is from base settings, how good it actually is (let's be real, no implementation of Breakout has been good) all affect playlist numbers. Just because a playlist exists doesn't mean that it always deserves to exist. RIPH3RBTB
It's actually why Team Slayer was the first playlist in the selector for most games, since you could just mash A to go right to it.
sustain team has always been aware that even the placement matters.
the most ideal population for a playlist in halo always starts at Slayer and everything you add from that point forward will intrinsically start slicing off population.
Not even Double EXP could save that one. It had the double whammy of trying to assemble ranked games in an 8v8 playlist taking forever, slowling up search times. And super power teams roaming in it that would killgrind if they ever got objective gametypes, so the playlist had poor ambassadors for it. Then they tried Squid Battle but the matching and killgrind teams killed that one too.
sustain team has always been aware that even the placement matters.
the most ideal population for a playlist in halo always starts at Slayer and everything you add from that point forward will intrinsically start slicing off population.
Not even Double EXP could save that one. It had the double whammy of trying to assemble ranked games in an 8v8 playlist taking forever, slowling up search times. And super power teams roaming in it that would killgrind if they ever got objective gametypes, so the playlist had poor ambassadors for it. Then they tried Squid Battle but the matching and killgrind teams killed that one too.
They just don't want another Fyrewulff post that slaughters them or shows something like Breakout being low or something. I don't buy that explanation at all. Hell, how about giving us an overall player count at least. I have never believed less information for the player is a bad thing.
Fata1moose
Banned
Halo 3 has quite a few trash maps, Snowbound, Epitaph, Isolation, Construct, Orbital, vanilla Foundry and Ghost Town . It only has a handful I like, Avalanche, Narrows, Longshore, Citadel and the Pit. Halo CE has better BTB maps overall (though Avalanche is the series best). Halo 2 has better 4v4 maps. Halo 3 has an OK mix of both. Then you factor in slow movement speed, equipment drawing out firefights plus the awful weapon sandbox and you have a recipe for the slowest paced Halo.
I highly doubt that's helping bad gametypes like Breakout grow.
VincentMatts
Member
So was Invasion
Chittagong
Gold Member
Came back to this game after a four month break, 150 are silver/gold now
Good god
I'm going to tank down from plat to bronze
EDIT: lmao, Gold 1. Probably out of pity. At least half of the matches seemed to be against a team. Is forcing teams to their own MM ever going to happen?
Good god
I'm going to tank down from plat to bronze
EDIT: lmao, Gold 1. Probably out of pity. At least half of the matches seemed to be against a team. Is forcing teams to their own MM ever going to happen?
Also runaway bleedout due to a low displayed number is a known and proven thing, because people want to optimize their game nights and won't try a playlist with a low number even if they like the gametype. Hiding the number can save a playlist that's just barely functional enough to keep matching games, where if you showed the actual number the "Hmm, maybe I should go play something else" mental push kicks in.
You do have to manage player expectation in a game with matchmaking, and can make the difference between a playlist living or dying. It can also have the very real effect of bulldozing everyone into 2 or 3 playlists as they do the matchmaking equivalent of huddling together for warmth. The hardcore want numbers, but mostly for the auditing aspect. Dunno how you really solve it in a way both sides can be happy.
It's also been proved over time that attempting to subsidize playlists with stuff like Double XP or other things works for a few days at best but then fails to do anything afterwards and the playlist dies anyway. You could push a playlist up the list, but then you piss off players that have acquired muscle memory for where their favorite playlist is (Destiny sort of solves this with the virtual mouse, so you have to move the cursor over to what you want anyway, they're more free to jostle things around when every playlist is a giant icon graphic)
It's also why games have moved more towards giving everyone knicknacks and exp and drops or whatever after every match, due to a concept called 'loss anxiety'. The idea is that players are anxious about losing the match ahead of them and will either not go into the list, or quit out in games a lot, leading to bleedout. The move to giving people something to show for their time spent in the activity reduces quit-out and makes them think less about losing because "hey, i at least got something to apply towards my account!". I don't think you'll ever really see the all or nothing of Halo 3 come back.
You do have to manage player expectation in a game with matchmaking, and can make the difference between a playlist living or dying. It can also have the very real effect of bulldozing everyone into 2 or 3 playlists as they do the matchmaking equivalent of huddling together for warmth. The hardcore want numbers, but mostly for the auditing aspect. Dunno how you really solve it in a way both sides can be happy.
It's also been proved over time that attempting to subsidize playlists with stuff like Double XP or other things works for a few days at best but then fails to do anything afterwards and the playlist dies anyway. You could push a playlist up the list, but then you piss off players that have acquired muscle memory for where their favorite playlist is (Destiny sort of solves this with the virtual mouse, so you have to move the cursor over to what you want anyway, they're more free to jostle things around when every playlist is a giant icon graphic)
It's also why games have moved more towards giving everyone knicknacks and exp and drops or whatever after every match, due to a concept called 'loss anxiety'. The idea is that players are anxious about losing the match ahead of them and will either not go into the list, or quit out in games a lot, leading to bleedout. The move to giving people something to show for their time spent in the activity reduces quit-out and makes them think less about losing because "hey, i at least got something to apply towards my account!". I don't think you'll ever really see the all or nothing of Halo 3 come back.
There's a game I used to play on PC called Shootmania, I decided to reinstall it the other day and play a few games. I started it up and saw that there were just over 100 people playing it. I quit out and uninstalled it right then. I don't want to waste my time attempting to find a match in that. Despite the fact that I fucking love that game.
Shame it never really took off...
Shame it never really took off...
I wonder how much of a playlists popularity has to with where it's positioned in the list. I imagine its more than one would think.
I wonder why 343 and other devs don't rotate the position of playlists- putting less popular ones in more prominent positions from time to time.
It might actually encourage players to try new things, and even out playlist numbers a bit.
I wonder why 343 and other devs don't rotate the position of playlists- putting less popular ones in more prominent positions from time to time.
It might actually encourage players to try new things, and even out playlist numbers a bit.
I loved the (extremely small) esport scene that game had. It was 3v3 teams, but the rounds were 1v3 attack v defense. Never personally played it but I did watch a few tournaments when it was in the IGN league.
it works until everyone rebuilds their muscle memory for where Team Slayer is and then you're back to same spot you were in before, so might as well put the popular playlists in the shorter UI path. If you only have time to play on weekends and every weekend your favorite playlist keeps moving around in the UI, it'd start to get annoying.
You could do some sort of quick match thing where you hit a button and can end up in potentially any playlist, but that would have the side effect of a lot of quit outs from getting that one playlist the person didn't want to play. I think that was the intended function of Quick Match in Halo 2 but it didn't make ship so it just put you in the last playlist you played.
Of course you could also do infill with bots like Gears did (does?) so low pop playlists stay running, but some people don't like playing with bots even if the game generally plays the same. Halo Wars 2 has a playlist where it's humans vs bots and it's definitely really fun to play because you know you're playing against bots. Playing WITH bots.. people can feel like the outcome of the game is out of their hands.
If people are helbent on playing slayer, they'll get to it regardless of where it is in the list.
But im not even sure the positions on the main list should change. Just that the featured playlist should be more prominent, rotate more often and perhaps be the in the default position when the page loads.
Another thing they could do is allow you to check multiple playlists you are interested in. That way less folks could search less populated playlists without necessarily suffering huge wait times...
Feel the Swift
Member
According to Danoxide on stream the pro players were in a Discord call with 343 about the settings. Hopefully tomorrow then.
I'm talking strictly movement speed, not length of engagements, which never bothered me in Reach. Not sure how it has more constrained movement, and I don't remember weapon kill times being noticeably longer? I also pretty much exclusively ran sprint, so waiting for a recharge to enter battle was never really a factor for me. Armor lock could be annoying, yes, but I never hated it to the degree everyone else did. It was also a good bait tactic when playing with a squad.
If you're into competitive Halo, I understand why it was probably a disappointment, but I never paid any real attention to Halo e-sports until 5 came out. I had the most fun with Reach, I think it hit at the peak time for Halo (at least amongst my friends), and it launched with a ton of content which was all enjoyable to me personally (campaign/multiplayer/invasion/firefight).
Can't really speak to the bloom changes, because I don't remember how they were implemented back when I was playing, and coming back to any of the older Halo titles feels super weird to me now, with the crosshair placement being off center on screen, the movement being super restricted, and in Reach's case, running at 30fps.
Yup, I didn't watch it all that much but playing that mode was so fucking fun.
Playing as the attacker was incredibly tense as you're teammates were watching your every move and you've got 3 defenders bearing down on you.
The movement system was amazing as well.
That game was some of the most fun I've ever had in a game.
Which I think is why people have fond memories. because while the game might have had a lot of cruddy mechanics, people were still around to play it. It certainly helped that it was feature-complete at launch; while it's awesome we got stuff like WZFF post-launch and that helps bring people back, if the ecosystem isn't pretty established from the get-go you're going to lose people quickly.
I'm still on record thinking that a version of armor lock could have worked (basically only allowing a brief second of invincibility so you'd have to actually be able to effectively time your AA instead of just holding it down and being a pause on combat) but I really don't think bloom added anything good to the series, and neither did 3x DMR battles on Blood Gulch. But there was still fun Epic CTF games and customs nights with HBO friends and the like. When we had a recent LAN aside from an ODST Firefight challenge we basically played all Reach.
Fata1moose
Banned
I'm a little confused as to why a game with 12 less players than Halo 5 detoured you from playing?
kappa
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Fata1moose
Banned
It's because it doesn't have sprint.
As someone who had bone cancer in their tibia, your're going to miss sprint when it's gone.
Hahaha-I've made myself sad.
Samurai G0SU
Member
Well i now believe for certain that 343i will have a scorpio option for Halo 5. They already have 4k assets and reading the interview with phil, he mentions first party studios doing this early so it would be a 'easy move' to support scorpio.
Fata1moose
Banned
They'd be silly not to do it. Older games getting upgraded is my biggest incentive for buying a Scorpio as newer games will be on PC.
User 73706
Banned
I think one possible avenue would be combining Destiny's analog-cursor option to avoid the muscle memory issue, and then having relative terminology based on playlist demographics. That is, rather than hard numbers, you might have something like "VERY LOW / LOW / GOOD / HIGH / VERY HIGH" that indicates how populated a given playlist is, but it's not a consistent metric across playlists. Something generic like Team Slayer is obviously going to be more populous than TU Beta Slayer, so while "HIGH" by Team Slayer standards might be 10,000+, for TU Beta Slayer it could be 500+ (the examples are arbitrary). Even something as simple as seeing "GOOD" versus "LOW" in something more obscure like Action Sack or Team Objective would probably be enough to encourage people to try it more often.
Deputy Moonman
Member
eww no. maps and guns were subpar in comparison to Halo 1 and 2
My Halo time has dropped to a few matches a week. It usually ends in frustration. Then a week goes by and I'm like "I should play some Halo 5" and it just ends in frustration again.Damn, we're so close to Achilles and progress seems to have dramatically slowed down again after a nice spurt there for awhile.
I did manage to get 3 buckle ups yesterday though!