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Halo |OT 21| Battle is the Great Redeemer | LIVE. DIE. RESPAWN.

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Sprint sucks everyone thats the bottom line. Remember when Halo was good, there wasnt sprint in the game. When Halo was bad there was sprint in the game.

Halo is dead and sprint killed it.

End of fuck.
 
Rock = Move at full speed

Paper = Aim

Scissors = Attack

I have to give up my ability to Aim and Attack to gain the ability to Move at full speed. Seems exactly like Rock-Paper-Scissor to me.

This is an awful comparison, since you need to aim and attack at the same time.

Actually, I need to aim and attack at the same time. Maybe you're a secret Nebula alt, just running fools over with Mongeese all day long.
 
This is an awful comparison, since you need to aim and attack at the same time.

Actually, I need to aim and attack at the same time. Maybe you're a secret Nebula alt, just running fools over with Mongeese all day long.

You don't need to attack to simultaneously aim and move at full speed in Classic Halo. I could be moving left while aiming forward, no attacking involved.

Did you always aim in the same direction you were moving in Classic Halo or did you watch the dangerous areas of the map as you moved towards your destination?
 
Rock = Move at full speed

Paper = Aim

Scissors = Attack

I have to give up my ability to Aim and Attack to gain the ability to Move at full speed. Seems exactly like Rock-Paper-Scissor to me.
So you're point here is that Sprint is an irrelevant and wasteful feature to Classic Halo?
Perhaps in Halo 4, yeah, b'cuz 343 shoved default sprint into every single playlist.
Reach at least gave a proper classic playlist.

If 343 can give a classic playlist & new playlist close to launch without sprint (or other "S" abilities), and a toggle feature for customs I think those are steps forward that they care enough to listen and consider our feedback to better halo.
 
You don't need to attack to simultaneously aim and move at full speed in Classic Halo. I could be moving left while aiming forward, no attacking involved.

Did you always aim in the same direction you were moving in Classic Halo or did you watch the dangerous areas of the map as you moved towards your destination?

That... has very little to do with what I said.

My point was that the paper (aiming) and the scissors (attacking) in your trainwreck of an analogy are frequently done at the same time. If you want to attack, you need to aim. Your comparison is poop.
 
That... has very little to do with what I said.

My point was that the paper (aiming) and the scissors (attacking) in your trainwreck of an analogy are frequently done at the same time. If you want to attack, you need to aim. Your comparison is poop.

Did you always aim in the same direction you were moving in Classic Halo?
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Whelp, it's completely broken today too. After the last patch I was actually getting somewhat decent matchmaking times. :/
 
343 can give a classic playlist & new playlist close to launch without sprint (or other "S" abilities), and a toggle feature for customs I think those are steps forward that they care enough to listen and consider our feedback to better halo.

Even if there is a "classic" playlist, all the maps will still be designed around Sprint. P2 on H5 Midship is as big as one of the bases now.
 

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Rock-paper-scissors is a pretty bad comparison for any modern video game. This isn't a game with trinary options; you could be at one of thousands of points on a map, with dozens of different weapon combinations and shield strengths… guns aren't even really designed as hard or soft counters to each other, as opposed to a common sandbox with different roles.

Even if mechanics aren't designed that way, the farther you spread your mechanics across multiple sandbox elements, it usually ends up that way.

Classic Halo [klas-ik hey-loh]
Often broadly defined as a mid-tempo arena shooter with uniquely open playspaces and an approachable player skill curve where the game's progressive, proverbial ecosystem operates on a core causative dichotomy wherein a set, static or "universal" sandbox of mechanical equipment from start to finish per match allows for the emergence of a deeper further metagame with objectively unique tactics and repercussions depending on subjective motivations, player skill sets and personal specializations.

Let's take an element from Halo 4 so you don't think I'm just being a militant purist: the Needler. While working on pretty similar principals as Needlers from prior titles, as a firearm in a sandbox without dual-wielding the Needler received a couple buffs allowing it to work on a deeper level than before. Its projectiles rapidly track targets compared to past titles, and while individual rounds do infinitesimal damage (and take a couple seconds to do so), implanting seven needles is a decisive instakill. This is the same Needler we've been working with on paper since the original, yes, but the improved, more aggressive nature of the Halo 4 Needler ended up serving a purpose no prior Needler really had before: it's a bread-and-butter counter to the Overshield, of all things. The "instakill" damage value was ramped up compared to prior titles, where you could realistically survive certain Needler supercombines if you were shielded heavily enough. In Halo 4, the "instakill" cap was raised, and as a result the Needler becomes an excellent way to shut down players with even the strongest of shielding.

While it may have been noted or discussed during development, there's no guarantee this was intended as the intentional purpose of the Needler within the game's sandbox - it was likely designed as a good-but-not-great infantry killer on level ground, just as it's always been. As far as disadvantages, shutting down the Needler is as simple as staying out of autoaim range, meaning a precision rifle on start will usually do the trick. And yet, despite this, the Needler emerged in a role within the sandbox it's never seen before. This is because while Halo is far from a binary, trinary or even quaternary system with a minimal series of variables, its combat ecosystem allows for the cultivation of dedicated advantages and disadvantages, where certain weapons or strategies prevail over those less effective. As far as other likely unintended weapon uses go, look no further than the Spartan Laser frying infantry and largely being used as a sniper rather than a heavy vehicle killer in 3, or the Energy Sword being commonly used as an effective movement option in 2 thanks to sword cancels and sword-flying and the like. Halo can have a million billion variables, but the sandbox will still always be finite and mechanical in nature, and - randomized game elements notwithstanding - a system of "X beats Y but loses to Z" will likely exist on some level.

TriState doesn't know shit on how to play rock paper scissors though.
 

jem0208

Member
Did you always aim in the same direction you were moving in Classic Halo?
No, however you're not going to always be looking in your direction of movement with sprint either.

It's not rock paper scissors gameplay you're thinking of, it's a trade off. Faster speed for no shooting and reduced awareness.


Uhhh, yes you will. You can't Sprint sideways.
You're not always going to be sprinting though. Hence you will be able to strafe.

Like I said, trade off.

I'm not arguing for or against sprint here, your arguments are just ridiculous.
 
Even if there is a "classic" playlist, all the maps will still be designed around Sprint. P2 on H5 Midship is as big as one of the bases now.
No shit.
The Reach Classics playlist was all forge maps... Lol
The Anniversary maps were developer add-on maps.

If you're gonna keep posting like this I'll just set to ignore.
It's like you're ignoring an open minded consideration how sprint can work or not.
I don't want it in Halo, but since it's here why not find ways it can function in MP?
It's not armor lock. Fuck AL.

At least 343 can do for the vocal minority is give a classics playlist & Toggle feature rather than nothing which Halo 4 was.. They didn't give a shit about any of those things. Let's be honest about that.
 
I don't know how to play Rock-Paper-Scissor.

Short answer: I don't. I think it's there largely to appeal to players who associate Sprint with faster gameplay, and become agitated when it's absent. I thin there's better ways to handle that, but 343 seems set on this one.

I also don't think that it's the end of the world. 343's current solution is an interesting one, but I'd prefer they let players aim and shoot during sprint, but have it also carry a flat hit to shields, taking a player from a 4 shot BR toughness to a 2 or 3 shot one. That way, you have to choose between speed and toughness, rather than reducing a player's offensive options. Much more interesting, IMO.
 
You should abandon Rock Paper Scissors and try a new analogy. Hard to answer your question when you don't even understand why it makes no sense.

Rock-Paper-Scissor forces you to give up core abilities in order to use other core abilities which is exactly what Sprint makes you do.
 
Short answer: I don't. I think it's there largely to appeal to players who associate Sprint with faster gameplay, and become agitated when it's absent. I thin there's better ways to handle that, but 343 seems set on this one.

I also don't think that it's the end of the world. 343's current solution is an interesting one, but I'd prefer they let players aim and shoot during sprint, but have it also carry a flat hit to shields, taking a player from a 4 shot BR toughness to a 2 or 3 shot one. That way, you have to choose between speed and toughness, rather than reducing a player's offensive options. Much more interesting, IMO.

You still didn't answer though. How is forcing players to choose between moving at full speed or their ability to attack good for Halo gameplay?
 

jem0208

Member
What is Rock-Paper-Scissor?
Alright

The concept behind rock paper scissor gameplay is that certain actions can only countered by certain other actions.

Only rock can beat scissors, only scissors can beat paper.

There isn't really any examples of this sort of gameplay in Halo. Everything is reasonably good against everything else. There are no hard counters.


You've got the analogy completely wrong. Rock paper scissors gameplay has nothing to do with removing the ability to use certain abilities. You're complaining about the concept of trade offs.

Do you also have to choose between using one ability or another in Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay?
I fucking give up.

What the fuck is happening
We're arguing about the finer points of rock paper scissors.
 
Alright

The concept behind rock paper scissor gameplay is that certain actions can only countered by certain other actions.

Only rock can be at scissors, only scissors can be at paper.

There isn't really any examples of this sort of gameplay in Halo. Everything is reasonably good against everything else. There are no hard counters.

Do you also have to choose between using one ability or another in Rock-Paper-Scissor gameplay?



I fucking give up.


OK. Have a good one.
 
So make sure if you're in a banshee that you don't accelerate right as the game ends.

It's been at the gameover screen for a couple minutes now with the banshee noise still in the background. Fun stuff, reminds me of the regen field issues in 4
 

TCKaos

Member
Rock-Paper-Scissor forces you to give up core abilities in order to use other core abilities which is exactly what Sprint makes you do.

Rock Paper Scissors is the definitive example of hard counters in game design.

RPS is:
Pokemon_1stGen_RPS_8415.jpg


Water > Fire > Grass > Water. A cyclical series of hard counters with each tailored to have one weakness and one strength. The only mechanics in RPS are "Choose R/P/S" and "Reveal choice". In RPS Rock will reliably, literally 100% of the time, beat Scissors. It absolutely can't not win. It is mechanically impossible for Scissors to beat Rock.

If you play Rock, you are making that decision knowing that 100% of the times your opponent uses Scissors you'll win, and 100% of the times your opponent uses Paper you'll lose.

This is absolutely not the case in Halo. Most of the time there isn't even a soft counter to a weapon/mechanic/system. That's why the utility weapon is a necessity.

I mean, as far as the idea that playing Rock grants victory over Scissors by sacrificing the player's ability to beat Paper doesn't translate well in to the same mechanics Halo has. I kinda' get what you're getting at, but I think your analogy is a bit off.
 
Halo has a dedicated "Cycle Grenade Types" button. Should Halo limit itself to only two grenade types? What are some other possible grenade types, besides Frag and Plasma, that could work in Halo?
 

belushy

Banned
Halo has a dedicated "Cycle Grenade Types" button. Should Halo limit itself to only two grenade types? What are some other possible grenade types, besides Frag and Plasma, that could work in Halo?

I don't know, but I like the Semtex grenades from Call of Duty (they can stick to walls as well as players). I think adding another grenade or make that a new function of the sticky grenade.
 

TCKaos

Member
Halo has a dedicated "Cycle Grenade Types" button. Should Halo limit itself to only two grenade types? What are some other possible grenade types, besides Frag and Plasma, that could work in Halo?

I thought that the Spike Grenade was a neat idea because it fired shrapnel, but it's a bit too similar to the Plasma for my liking.
 
I don't know, but I like the Semtex grenades from Call of Duty (they can stick to walls as well as players). I think adding another grenade or make that a new function of the sticky grenade.

The Spike Grenade could stick to walls and players. It's directional blast formed a more cylindrical/conical area of effect compared to the spherical area of effect of frags or plasmas.
 
Rock-Paper-Scissor forces you to give up core abilities in order to use other core abilities which is exactly what Sprint makes you do.

There's a big difference you're missing out on. Rock Paper Scissors is turn-based, presents you with three choices, and you're intended to choose the advantageous one to counter your opponent's choice based on factors ranging from deduction to opponent personality (how likely they are to try and repeat, switch things up, etc.). You're not "losing" the other abilities in any sense of the word - you're always intended to make a single choice, and flubbing your hand into another choice to try and save face is considered cheating. It's a simple memorization exercise with reflexive elements.

Not only is Halo not turn-based, but in classic Halo's infantry-based combat you're also permitted to use all four of your major functions concurrently. These are:

- Movement (analog stick, jumping, utilizing ladders, crouching etc)
- Aiming (zooming in, looking around)
- Dealing damage (throwing grenades, firing a weapon, melee)
- Taking context-sensitive action (flipping a vehicle, picking up a weapon, picking up an objective)

Save for possibly picking up a new weapon or an objective like a flag, all four primary elements possess overlap and can be used concurrently. When you start getting into the nitty-gritty, certain elements may cancel eachother out - such as throwing grenades while zoomed in - but bottom line is that a variation of all four options have parity with one another. Sprint obviously breaks this flow, yes, as do elements like Clamber, but with your Rock Paper Scissors comparison you're crudely bending Halo's mechanics into a caricature with several false attached qualities:

1. The implication that Halo's actions are trinary. In Rock Paper Scissors, your singular mechanical action - using your choice - there is the ability to win, the ability to tie, and the ability to lose. None of Halo's four primary mechanics are this cut and dry. Aiming one direction will not win you a match, while picking up a Beam Rifle will not single-handedly lose you a match. It's a matter of combining these properties that allows you to force one of three possible outcomes, and while I'm not an advocate for Sprint or even most Spartan Abilities, they don't bottleneck your outcome the way you're making them out to. Do they bottleneck your mechanics? Absolutely. Do they decide victory, tie or loss? Not by a long shot.

2. The implication that Halo's gameplay is turn-based. Even slowed down to a crawl, Halo's actions are for the most part real-time, where players are always existing second by second, frame by frame within the playspace, even if they don't make an explicit decision. Spartans and Elites may lay low or express indifference at times within a match to make decisions or formulate a course of action, but their indifference or lack of action is still a presence within the game. They never disappeared, never expected the enemy to simply make actions parallel to their own but of different outcome. Now, I will digress, Halo may have individualized engagements such as 1v1s where players test their merits in a similar fashion, but even then their actions are never exactly the same due to different players being behind the wheel, so to speak. Sprint does not somehow augment your turn the way you make it out to be.

3. The implication that Halo has a static, explicitly-defined series of advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, there are mechanical statistics put in place that may give certain weapons priority over another depending on situation and encounter - a Rocket Launcher would likely be more useful than a Light Rifle in dispatching a fully-loaded enemy Warthog, for example - but it's what the players do with these mechanical possibilities that define the match. This is where the concept of a metagame comes in. For one, note Armor Abilities in Reach and 4. While the broad functions of Armor Abilities never really changed, they did receive some minor balnacing tweaks, notably in the case of Armor Lock. And yet, despite this, players knew what these mechanics were and player populations gradually shifted interest in Armor Abilities over time. There wasn't a set rhyme or reason to it - on some days a majority of the population chose Promethean Vision, on others they might have chose Hologram, on others Active Camo. These were all due to an evolving community whose interests waxed and waned aconcurrently to the mechanics of the game itself. And again, we'll likely see a similar metagame fluctuate over the course of the Halo 5 Guardians Beta lifespan. The Spartan Ability usage at the start of the beta and at the end of it will likely be substantially different as players carve out every nook and cranny of their mechanical worth - Stabilizers could end up being the real MVP of Spartan Abilities, for all we know. This is the most substantial difference to Rock Paper Scissors. While there's obviously a personal metagame to be had, it's an instanced metagame per match, it's not ever-evolving in the way a community playing a game's is. You may know the ins and outs of the strategies a friend uses and be able to beat him by going rock-rock-paper, but he'll also likely change up his strategies or keep losing. While on the most basic possible level, this does happen in Halo, it's a global metagame that's become something of a mechanical primordial ooze that's never going to truly stagnate unless it's a bad foundation to work with. Halo 4 had traces of this with players establishing decisive advantages by camo-camping, Prom Vis abusing, personal ordnance dropping Incineration Cannons and roflstomping the enemy team ad nauseam, and that's because the Infinity featureset was simply an unhealthy sandbox to work with. Halo even has a developmental metagame where things are taken in and out by 343 or Bungie or Saber or whoever depending on feedback and playtesting. Rock Paper Scissors is going to be a lot more shallow than that, and you might get some dumb ass hipsters to play Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock with you, but it's not ever going to work the same way as the original.

If you really want to compare it to another game, use, like, competitive Pokemon or something. The Rock Paper Scissors analogy just makes nooooo sense when you're isolating it to Sprint.
 
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