Except Sprint requires maps to be enlarged to accommodate it, or it screws up the flow. It allows easy escapes, no more forced battles.
It does change things quite a lot.
We have seen that already, in Reach and Halo 4.
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Halo |OT 21| Battle is the Great Redeemer | LIVE. DIE. RESPAWN.
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Except Sprint requires maps to be enlarged to accommodate it, or it screws up the flow. It allows easy escapes, no more forced battles.
It does change things quite a lot.
We have seen that already, in Reach and Halo 4.
Welfare
Member
Could've sworn you had to be connected constantly. Yeah, forget I said that.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Depends on the massive maps. You'd need to design the maps and gametypes more or less in tandem, to avoid screwing this up, but splitting up critical areas between wide open vehicle playgrounds and closed off, short-range base structures ensures melee still has a place.
I'm excited to try breakdown. Nice to have a 1-life, no respawns mode like CS finally in Halo.
Still hate Sprint, ADS, and everything but Thruster though. Thruster also looks like it could be massively toned down, while the maps look massive again. ;(
TriStateTryHard
Member
What do the two analog thumbsticks control in Halo? Movement and Aiming, right? Two prominent elements of gameplay, correct?
What was the required trade off for moving at maximum speed in Classic Halo?
What was the required trade off for aiming at maximum effectiveness in Classic Halo?
What is the required trade off for moving at maximum speed in Halo 5?
What is the required trade off for aiming at maximum effectiveness in Halo 5?
Sounds interesting.
Kinda want to think a bit more about it. It's something at least.
You could run away with or without sprint.
Battles are never "forced" because you aren't locked in some arena. It's all dependent on the situation. My argument was that sprint and the rest of the abilities don't "dumb down" gameplay. They do affect gameplay though.
Larger maps don't need to be a bad thing and can be great provided the maps are designed with a set of movement in mind. Getting rid of AAs will help this. Again, I would've preferred that sprint weren't on the smaller maps. It is though so I'm interested in seeing how 343 works with it (enlargement aside).
Sprint is a tool for getting out of trouble. It makes positioning less important because it's easier to run away or change positions during a gunfight.
TriStateTryHard
Member
You have two choices when an engagement presents itself: Fight or Flight.
Sprint buffs Flight and disables Fight.
The retreating player is rewarded with faster speed while the aggressor is punished with the removal of his ability to attack.
Sprint rewards players who run away much, much more than it rewards players who aggress.
That was a great fucking thread.
I saw nothing in Tootsi's post that indicated he thought the additions dumbed down Halo. Unless that was earlier?
By forced battle, i mean that the "victim" has to fight back, or be clever to get away. Out-with or out-fight the other, otherwise you're dead, as it should be. Sprint gives an easy way out. Too easy. It requires neither thought nor planning nor skill.
And maps... i can't recall an enlarged map that's been a good thing. Or bigger maps in general. Halo PC BTB maps were big, too big. I've always thought more compact BTB maps have usually been the better ones, with some exceptions (like Valhalla, though it isn't exactly big in the first place. Pretty sure Halo 4's variation is actually bigger... and worse in itself).
Sprint also makes it so their shields don't recharge. So if you consider that they are losing a fight bad enough to start to run away, their very low shields will STAY low and the other play who can sprint to catch up (or choose not to chase) can easily kill him. The initial conditions will return once the players meet back up (low shield for loser, advantageous conditions for aggressor).
If you're going to have an argument, state all possible situations (ex. shields don't recharge when sprinting).
Like I said before, there always were trade-offs for the things I just mentioned. If a gameplay element has no trade-off, everyone will use it. Halo CE is the perfect example of a multiplayer component that does many things at no cost - resulting in a one-way gameplay route. Maximum speed comes at no cost - so you will not see anyone just touching that ministick for 50%. The pistol is strong in every situation. It just completely destroys all of the other elements in the game. All the multiplayer montages you can find from Halo CE show the same gameplay moments over and over again. Why? Well, because there is no room for other situations and all the other gameplay elements the game offers aren't as viable enough as they should be. That said, even an obviously unbalanced experience can be fun.
Was Halo CE fun? Fuck yes! Was its completely sandbox viable? Fuck no.
TriStateTryHard
Member
Do you think punishing players who move at full speed is good for Halo gameplay?
Do you think having a player's movement speed affect a static value, like shield recharge delay, is good for Halo gameplay?
TriStateTryHard
Member
Why don't you go ahead and answer those questions.
Everyone moving and aiming with no punishments? Oh the horror!
If you think the first three games in the series got the formula wrong, maybe Halo just isn't for you.
Don't run like a bitch and back down from a fight and you won't be punished. Also be better than your opponent and you won't get punished.
For once, better players are rewarded. Something we've been begging for.
edit: by the way i'm not referring to you in this post, just in general
Worked great for many Halos. Fucking great. Then COD came... 'Tis a good game but no Halo needs to be like COD.
http://xboxclips.com/tootsi666/26923251-78d9-4649-ad62-a4c4e5ea6170
Should I laugh or cry?
Should I laugh or cry?
TheAdmiester
Member
SWAT has been working amazingly for me so far besides one very large issue in the H2A version.
Instead of being super fast paced with either 3 second respawns (Halo 2/3) or instant press-X-to-respawn-s (Halo 4), H2A has a 9 second respawn timer. You can fully watch the killcam of your death and then still have to wait 4 seconds for your next life, and if it's on Shrine, you'll probably die instantly after. It ruins the pace of the game not being able to jump straight back in.
Instead of being super fast paced with either 3 second respawns (Halo 2/3) or instant press-X-to-respawn-s (Halo 4), H2A has a 9 second respawn timer. You can fully watch the killcam of your death and then still have to wait 4 seconds for your next life, and if it's on Shrine, you'll probably die instantly after. It ruins the pace of the game not being able to jump straight back in.
Because your questions were just rhetorical.
My answer is: balancing changes. That's part of the process on developing a new game. Why even bother developing a new game if all you really want is exactly the same like it ever was? Why not improve things and add more possibilities?
I'm not even saying sprint and that pseudo-ads will work. I'm really not. But I'm also not saying the opposite. Because this is something I can not evaluate yet. And you can't, too.
TriStateTryHard
Member
They're not rhetorical. Are you incapable of answering them?
1) (visible on radar)
2) none / zooming when enemy in distance
3) no shooting / (visible on radar)
4) none / zooming when enemy in distance
What does this change? I don't get your argument here. My previous comment still refers to all of these ... It's a shift of balancing. While in Halo 5 one more down-side has been added to maximum speed (no shooting), the added plus-side is an even higher maximum speed. Sprint is just another layer added to the basic movement.
That is not a balance change, it is a radical gameplay change.
EDIT Well, yes, it does technically affect balance as well, but then so do all radical gameplay changes. It is no simple balance change though.
Oooh, good one. I was trying to think of a down side, this one nailed it.
I never said it is a simple change. Changing the balance of a game can be lowering a cooldown of an ability by 0,5 secs or it even can be a process of adding new elements. You change big things. You change small things.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
So, I hate to be a broken record but I also hate hearing the same nonsense even to this day about CE being a one trick, unbalanced pony.
Thoughts? I've been a huge advocate for AR/Pistol starts for ages granted both are effective, unlike what we saw in Halo 3. We're getting AR/Pistol starts for Halo 5 with less aim assist, faster gameplay and kill times, and default Thrusters, so that's a step in the right direction.FUNKNOWN iXi said:
Basically what I'm saying is, I know what the gamers
and ladies
Yeah, well, i wouldn't call a radical gameplay change a balance change (or shift of balance as you say it), as balance is a mere side-effect of that radical change, i think.
(I will make a quick note that i'm receptive to nearly all Halo 5 changes and additions, except sprint and ADS, which i oppose utterly, those two things i can't stand anywhere anymore.)
TriStateTryHard
Member
Appearing on radar occurs at anything above crouch walk speed. Has nothing to do with max speed. Sorry.
Zooming has no negative effect on any other base player trait so you are wrong on that one too.
Can we agree that moving at max speed or aiming at max effectiveness had no drawbacks in the first three Halo games?
What problem did Halo have that Sprint and ADS solve?
Your quoted comment brings exactly the same statement I did in my post. The Halo CE pistol is resulting in a very small viable sandbox, it is still a very fun game and so on. If your only problem in my post is the word "unbalanced" then replace it with "Halo CE had a very limited and unused sandbox due to heavy balance peaks from a handful of gameplay elements".
Zoom reduces your awareness of your surroundings massively. There is definitely a downside to using it.
There's also the fact that ads has no mechanical effect on gameplay for precision weapons. So ads and zoom are mechanically identical (for precision weapons).
However we never had zoom for autos so that addition is a bit different.
I don't entirely agree about the aesthetics. I actually really like the look of ads for some weapons. I think the BR looks great. Not so keen on the DMR though.
It does cover more of the screen. However I actually think this could be quite an effective method for balancing some weapons. The DMR's scope covers a large portion of the screen and as such reduces awareness massively. Therefore reducing its effectiveness at range.
I haven't noticed muzzle flash covering the target though.
I'm pretty sure this is the 3rd of 4th time you've said this...
ADS looks terrible. Typically covers much more of the screen. Muzzle flash covers the target. It does not have mechanical differences maybe (in its supposed Halo 5 variation) but it sure can affect the gameplay. Negatively.
Also looks terrible. But i said that already.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I still say that the way to go is to up the base move speed, and make it so that rather than disabling your gun, Sprint cuts your max shield strength. You can get a forward movement bonus (beyond the regular maximum), but in exchange you become much more fragile. Maybe even make it a flat speed boost rather than a "sprint," per se, so it works while strafing.
That actually sounds rather interesting implementation of sprint. Channel the energy from shield-generator to servos, essentially.
The most important part is bolded though...
This fucking thing. I mean, the lack of it. It bothers me most in all games with Sprint. Why the fuck i can't run anywhere with equal speed?
TriStateTryHard
Member
What has a higher skill ceiling; a game where players need to simultaneously move and aim or a game where players can only move or aim?
Is Halo a run-AND-gun game or is Halo a run-OR-gun game?
Is Halo a run-AND-gun game or is Halo a run-OR-gun game?
It definitively should be the former like it has been in the past, no need to make it yet another COD which is the latter.
Seriously, i can't imagine any other reason for Sprint and ADS in Halo 5 but "How can we make the game more appealing to mass audience?".
They don't look like the devs thought "How will this make Halo better a game?"
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
What the.. Just found DMAQ on Facebook and sent him a friend request, noticed it was his birthday, and now I'm seeing him on this stream lmfao
Small world. Glad he chose correctly when asked what his favorite Halo was ;]
Chill Out is a great example of a map that has a lot of weapon choices on such a small map. Sniper, Rockets, Camo, OS, Shotgun, PR, Pistol, etc. sounds incredibly broken on paper, no? How about a Power-ups that spawns every 30 secs to 2 mins over the excessively long 3 minutes of Halo 3? It all may sound broken, but it's not. Everything gets used and everything can be effective, and Power-ups are a big help to keeping the flow of a match interesting.
CE is the truth and people have to give it time to learn the game. You're not going to be experts at it after a month of TMCC's broken launch.
Small world. Glad he chose correctly when asked what his favorite Halo was ;]
But what was unused except for the Needler? I use every other weapon in the game quite regularly, as do many other good players. On Chill Out, I use the PR and Shotgun all the time. I use the Plasma Pistol whenever I cross that area in Damnation, I use the Sniper as much as I can despite being able to be gunned down by a good Pistol user because if my aiming is precise and my strafing is on point, I can dominate with a Sniper even on a small map like Chill Out.
Chill Out is a great example of a map that has a lot of weapon choices on such a small map. Sniper, Rockets, Camo, OS, Shotgun, PR, Pistol, etc. sounds incredibly broken on paper, no? How about a Power-ups that spawns every 30 secs to 2 mins over the excessively long 3 minutes of Halo 3? It all may sound broken, but it's not. Everything gets used and everything can be effective, and Power-ups are a big help to keeping the flow of a match interesting.
CE is the truth and people have to give it time to learn the game. You're not going to be experts at it after a month of TMCC's broken launch.
You'll notice the pros in the game shown at Halofest are using a lot of the abilities while moving/strafing and aiming, like in old Halos. Sprinting is just to get from A to B. When they want to shoot, they stop and act like old Halos (strafing) but with more and better movement options.
Seriously, this is the worst twist of logic I've seen from you.
I know. This is why I wrote (radar).
There doesn't need to be a problem to change things. I tried to explain that with my last couple of posts.
But whatever, I understand your concerns regarding that new additions. I'm not even saying you are wrong. I just say you are wrong by judging on all these things now already.
Will go to bed now! Gn8
TriStateTryHard
Member
You know what used to be used to get from A to B? Running with your gun up. How does forcing players to lower their weapons benefit Halo gameplay?
It doesn't... so don't do it or you'll start to lose firefights and get beat to the punch.
Hence, people who need to scratch the sprint urge will... and will die a lot in the process and pros will play smarter only using sprint when they know it's safe.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
As to conventional sprint not allowing strafing, I guess it's because you can't move as fast left and right as you can flat out forward IRL. Best I've got.
False dichotomy. You still need to run and gun at the same time. Trying to sprint your way through a firefight is a remarkably bad idea.
From the footage we've seen, it actually looks like 5 doesn't have a very defined "utility" weapon". The BR obviously still looks pretty good, however it seems the pistol is also quite powerful. The AR up close looks like it completely shreds and the DMR seems to be the go to long distance rifle.
It looks like quite a refreshing change from the constant BR/DMR usage of 2 onwards.
Hey, maybe AR/SMG starts will be fun now?
It looks like quite a refreshing change from the constant BR/DMR usage of 2 onwards.
Hey, maybe AR/SMG starts will be fun now?
TriStateTryHard
Member
Do you think that maps have been enlarged due to the presence of sprint as a base player trait and now simply running with your gun up is not as viable of a movement option as it once was?
ARGH! It is so annoying. It isn't like the movement in shooters is anywhere close to realistic in the first place! You can usually move much faster backwards than you can IRL. You can usually switch direction you go without any inertia unlike IRL. You can usually run much faster with heavy battlegear and weapon, for a long time, unlike IRL.
Doesn't really work as an explanation... though i reckon that most devs would justify it like this anyway.
Sprinting any direction might be a balance problem... but if so, perhaps the whole concept of sprinting should be thought about, not artificially limited.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Reason this is good because you start with an effective weapon set, but design the weapons on the map to be worth picking up. That's why CE was so fun, because you can spawn and defend yourself. Weapons on the map in a game with such a powerful starting set need to be equally, if not more powerful, so how does one solve that?
Unique weapon traits and some creativity in the sandbox. Things like plasma stun, things like activating Camo quicker with close range weapons, things like Gravity Gauntlets, things like grenades that teleport you, things like more unique Power-ups, things like grenades that can teleport you, things like advancing movement options with default Thrusters, things like etc. etc.
Can be fixed by doing what I stated earlier:
"My opinion:
Up the base movement speed a lot. Make it so sprinting is faster, but not enough to warrant really using it... at all (plus the penalties). It should be noticeably faster but not by much.
This way, all the people who need/want sprint get it and everybody else shouldn't feel penalized not using it ever.
Scratches that itch without screwing the other half over."
You have valid questions, but I seriously think you're arguing just for the sake of arguing now. There are plenty of options to look at here and you need to take a second to understand there are a lot of ways to approach the issues we've had in Halo's past (reach, 4).
Agree 100%. The more I see of ADS the more it becomes a deal breaker.
Poodlestrike
Banned
That's why the proposed hit to shields. It'd be less of a sprint, more of a toggle between speed and toughness. Maybe even up the jump height as well, just make it about mobility?
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