VisceralBowl
Member
LOVING the TDM crowd today. CE 8 H2A 1
Hell yeah!
Hell yeah!
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Halo |OT 21| Battle is the Great Redeemer | LIVE. DIE. RESPAWN.
- Thread starter Plywood
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what? i never!
Ahh, makes me want to create a theory.
Halo CE has the quickest time to kill (TTK) than any of the Halo games. COD kiddos like quick-twitch-like deathmatch games, Halo CE provides that, though it's tougher than COD.
Thus, I believe, if there were a HCE dedicated playlist, its population would be greater than all the other Halos.
VisceralBowl
Member
interesting theory.
I've heard it many times from many people, their dislike for Halo is because you are shooting the player four, five, six, seven, sometimes eight times, just to kill them. That doesn't translate to a COD player.
SWAT becomes popular because it takes away the long kill time and basically makes everything a one shot kill, thus it satisfies those players' taste.
On top of that, Halo CE came out well before COD4 did, which was the COD that basically exploded its popularity.
Now that HCE is easily accessible on Xbox Live, everyone who never played it will now get to, and despite the graphics being outdated and the no ADS/Sprint stuff, I really do think people will fall in love with it.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Yeah you tell em! Alt accounts are against the rules, no halogaf member would dare break that rule. Right guys?
I've seen CE win alot of the times I've been in Team Slayer. More than I had figured it would. So he could be on to something.
Well, there will be soon, but I bet you are wrong.
Yeah, ice cold super chilled beer is different. There's a reason they love to do that with Budweiser and what have you - it's the only way they're tolerable.
I find fridge temperature is fine for most beers. Technically I should be letting stuff like saisons warm up a bit more first, but I think they warm up quickly enough in the glass and in my hand that it's not a big deal. Plus, when I want a beer, I want to grab it, pour it, and drink it - I just don't have the patience to wait! I'm fairly "snobby" about my beers (really I just like beer) and I don't think it's a big faux pas so long as you're not chilling the thing to at or below freezing.
In other news, Halo CE feels massively improved. Still had some laggy games and it's definitely far from perfect, but it's way, way better than before. It would appear that they've implemented a degree of client-side trust for hit detection, and that's how we're getting away without leading.
The downside is that they did so very generously in a game that's not built for it. As a result, it's possible to be around corners, through teleporters, etc. and have one or even two pistol shots from another player hit you since you're still in their line of fire on their screen. I had a game in Battle Creek last night that wasn't laggy, but I came through the teleporter to my base and then collapsed dead right in front of the health pack I was trying to grab.
So there's certainly room for tuning in how much trust is given to the client. That said, I'll take this around-corners death crap over inconsistent shot leading and host compensation any day of the week. Makes the game way, way, way more playable.
Wagers!
If we had population counters we wouldn't have to guess. :/
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Got a 14 player btb match. 1 bomb on burial mounds. Awesome!
Two players quit once Halo 2 has been voted.
Another 2 quit after the first round.
Ugh.
Two players quit once Halo 2 has been voted.
Another 2 quit after the first round.
Ugh.
I hate to say it, but I think Frankie's gonna be right. There's a lot of kids who think "classic Halo" means Halo 3. H1 folks are a bit of a niche; I had multiple instances the other night where people voted SMG spawn Halo 2 and AR spawn Halo 3 over Halo 1.
Seriously, who votes for SMG spawns over Halo 1?
Can you tell us how the population is now across the playlists? Is it ok after the... rough patches so far?
I hate to say it, but I think Frankie's gonna be right. There's a lot of kids who think "classic Halo" means Halo 3. H1 folks are a bit of a niche; I had multiple instances the other night where people voted SMG spawn Halo 2 and AR spawn Halo 3 over Halo 1.
Seriously, who votes for SMG spawns over Halo 1?
Well, many people in MCC are probably brand new to Halo in general, so when they see H2, Halo CE and Halo 3, they're voting on the game, not the starting weapon.
There are people in many camps:
Ones that vote for the map
Ones that vote for the starting weapon
Ones that vote for just the game
I believe many that vote for the AR/SMG start games dont even know it's starting with those weapons.
I agree HCE is niche, but once the game fully functions as advertised, HCE will be a brand new game to many people. Think about it, we're just now getting the ability to play HCE over Xbox Live. Not the Xbox Connect bs, not system linking your xboxes together, true Xbox Live, play anywhere, anytime, with anyone.
The Henery
Member
What I don't get is that 343 produced the only Halo game where you can choose to spawn with a precision weapon in practically any playlist you choose. Load outs in that sense were a positive addition to Halo (plasma pistol secondary slot, less so). Why incorporate levels of AR startage not seen even in the Bungie days?
Poohblaster
Member
I had a great experience playing last night. I was by myself so I found games quickly in swat, slayer, and Halo 2 anniversary playlists. I thought Halo CE felt so much better, whatever was done to the netcode really helped.
I only had a few complaints. I want dedicated servers. Also there are way too many instances of AR and SMG starts on maps and gametypes that make absolutely no sense. Also I'd like to respawn in Halo 2 classic, please please let me respawn.
I only had a few complaints. I want dedicated servers. Also there are way too many instances of AR and SMG starts on maps and gametypes that make absolutely no sense. Also I'd like to respawn in Halo 2 classic, please please let me respawn.
There is some sort of agenda with forcing a default starting weapon that doesn't allow you to defend yourself from a distance on each respawn. Not sure why, but I know back in Bungie.net days, Achronos or whoever he was, posted once in defense of SMG starts.
Basically, and I'm paraphrasing, the BR is a power weapon. You should start with a crappy weapon that forces you to move around the map and seek better weapons. If you get a BR and you die, it is your fault you died, thus you lose your BR, thus you will get punished further for dying since each time you respawn, you will get killed by rifles because all you have to defend yourself with is an SMG.
Basically you spawn with SMG, crouch walk to a BR, so you're undetected on radar.
My theory on that logic is the SMG/AR start is intentional. It's there to allow those who pick up other weapons such as the BR, Carbine, or the Sniper rifle, to be able to get some freebie easy kills on freshly respawned players. In a way, it's rewarding the player who sought out the sniper rifle and now that player is rewarded not just with a sniper rifle, but the ability to snipe players who factually cannot defend themselves when they respawn, or if they're just weilding a SMG/AR and no rifle.
Back to Achronos though, he also said that when you give everyone a BR, the game just becomes about BRs, no one will pick up the other weapons.
Bullshit.
Beaver Creek for example. There's Rockets, shotgun, and sniper rifle. If you play with default weapons, you get plasma pistols (noob combo with BR) and you have needlers, pistol, and smgs. What else do you need? If you play with no duels, then you have rifles, rockets, shotty, and sniper. Plenty of weapons in my opinion.
There's truth to the SMG/AR starts, and it's not to make people move around the map and pick up other weapons, it's really about making it easier for those who got the better weapons, period.
This is why HCE is so good. Small amount of weapons. Short supply of power weapons. Epic fights over them constantly during the course of a match.
Furthermore, SMG/AR starts equate to the accessibiliy factor in game design. It's pick up and play bs that designers think equates to fun.
Not sure how it's fun to play Warlock TS, and one team grabs all the BRs and it's basically spawn kill city for the rest of the match. That also applies to basically any SMG start game.
Gabotron ES
Member
They'll add BR starts a few months in, just like with every halo title release... question is why not do it earlier?
I found it!!!
http://halo.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=9497915&postRepeater1-p=3#9502273
http://halo.bungie.net/Forums/posts.aspx?postID=9497915&postRepeater1-p=3#9502273
Well, that's obvious. Because we don't like you. Not the hardcore people, but you in particular.
On a more serious note, I kind of think the sniper rifle is a single shot weapon that takes some skill to use, but I imagine you are referring to the pistol and the fact that you don't spawn with such a weapon by default in Halo 2. Well, that's because you shouldn't spawn with a weapon that makes the choice of what weapon to have non-interesting. When that choice isn't interesting, a lot of other design effort we make becomes pointless and the game becomes a vapid shell of its intended self (which is why I'm not a big fan of single-weapon games). Yes, that's arbitrary game design on our part, but, well, we're the game designers. I'm sorry you don't like that, but that's how it is. Good thing Halo 3 has a expansive trait system and game type creator in it, huh?
This is mind blowing levels of stupid. SMG Starts are good because they make choosing weapons, "interesting."
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
MCC was rushed out the door.
Of course they didn't curate gametypes and starting weapons when the actual game doesnt even function right at launch.
Of course they didn't curate gametypes and starting weapons when the actual game doesnt even function right at launch.
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
I agree especially in matchmaking since it just encourages your "team" members to quit on you when things don't start going their way.
biosnake20
Member
Where are our reparations Frankie?
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
Not really nine times out of ten it just causes one team to lock down the other and start spawn killing. .
It was a joke
Poohblaster
Member
I was about to jump down your throat. Good thing I finish reading my sentences.
OdysseusVA
Banned
He took your money and checked out
Fata1moose
Banned
Well said, Vapor. It's been especially evident how bad SMG starts are with unbalanced teams. You are down 5/4 on Ascension/Zenith the other team is going to get control just by having the numbers. You die on a fairly open map and you're probably spawning at Banshee, in which case you already lost. This is bad in 5v5 games too of course, just saying these uneven matches have exasperated the issue. Especially since the SMG is a pea shooter that can't kill someone with a good exchange of bullets and melee, sometimes they still won't die. I'm actually glad to see the AR and pistol in Halo 5 can actually do something, while they might be too quick on kill times right now I feel that's going in the right direction.
Edit: That reminds me that they have AR starts on Bloodline which is a total joke.
Edit: That reminds me that they have AR starts on Bloodline which is a total joke.
So if we have an effective pistol again (albeit one that doesn't sound like a beast) are AR starts still a problem? I never see any complaints about it in discussions about CE which is why I'm curious.
On another note, I had a dream last night that I was playing Halo 3 on the MCC. Tried to grenade jump and got exploded out of the map team rocket style. Glitch?
On another note, I had a dream last night that I was playing Halo 3 on the MCC. Tried to grenade jump and got exploded out of the map team rocket style. Glitch?
It's the little things.
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
It was a joke
I'm so terrible at picking up on them when it's written XD.
I've never had issue with AR starts in Halo CE. The issue isn't AR starts or even SMG starts. It's not having a weapon to protect yourself from range once you respawn.
Quake 3 does this perfectly, and it was designed well before HCE. The machine gun you spawn with in Quake can zoom and can shoot completely across the map. So when you respawn in the game, you can at least ping people from a distance to defend yourself till you grab rockets, lighting gun, rail gun, etc.
In HCE, the same exact concept took place, AR/Pistol starts. You spawn, and you can deal damage from all ranges, it allowed you to not just get spawn killed immediately.
That's the issue. Bungie didn't get it after HCE. Once John Howard left Bungie post-HCE, Bungie's design logic went to shit. Now we have 343 practically following in the same footsteps.
The answer is, spawn players with a weapon the protects them from sniper rifles, rifles, etc, right off spawn. No one is saying we should be able to sniper scope into a sniper off spawn, we're simply saying allow the player to defend themselves.
When you spawn with an AR/SMG, you factually cannot ping a sniper out of scope. Period.
There's definitely a subset of folks who do not equate Halo with precision weapons. My ex-wife was one of them. Basically she loved Halo, but only when there wasn't anyone running around 3 or 4 shotting everyone else. She liked shotguns, rockets, dual-wielding and CQC. Alot of the guys that introduced me to Halo were the exact same way. Once I became proficient with the pistol (and in H2, the BR), playing against me wasn't fun anymore.
Seeing as "default Halo" was how I was brought in to the series, I can definitely understand and to some degree appreciate the position of the designers and/or players who feel that the game is more fun using the whole sandbox (and I mean, the WHOLE sandbox) rather than BRs and power weapons. As someone who came to appreciate Halo as a competitve game, however, I understand and much prefer the BR/Pistol game.
In short, as much as it sucks for those of us that know how to use precision weapons, try not to discount those that don't. They exist, and enjoy playing Halo, sometimes as much as we do.
Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation dude.
So based off what we've seen of H5's pistol what are your guys thoughts? It's a 5sk and has nice accuracy. Range is a bit low but it has a 1.5x scope if I recall. Coupled with the AR in H5 it seems like you shouldn't have too much trouble defending yourself off spawn.
Poohblaster
Member
This post has way too much reason in it. I suggest you go watch 5 hours of no scope Halo montages on youtube and think about what you have done.
I don't think you hear complaints about AR start in CE because you have the pistol to switch to off spawn to actually defend yourself from mid/long range. Someone's near you at spawn, sure go ahead and AR them down. Sniper got you pinned down? Switch to pistol to descope/defend yourself and actually have a shot.
AR was also useful as quick camo and good player actually drop pistol to pick up rockets or sniper while camo. I don't think any AR/SMG type weapon offered anything as useful post CE. Great thing is too is that we're finding out that quick camo utility was a planned aspect of CE and not an accident.
If someone has a BR, DMR, or Sniper, can we ping them out of scope with the pistol secondary, and at least at medium to long range?
Long Drong
Member
Pistol seems great. Zoom should probably be 2x though. I think biggest flaw of Halo 2 is the lack of a good starting weapon. BR is IMO a little bit too strong and SMG and Pistol are useless.
That's cool. Didn't realize the AR thing was intentional.
The pistol in CE had a lot more utility for sure. I think the biggest reason (or at least one if then) was that CE had a very tight sandbox. The 2 weapons with range were the Pistol and Sniper Rifle. You had AR and PR for mid range. Then finally you had the PP and Shotgun for close range. The Rocket Launcher was the powerest power weapon ever. It was really solid.
Now we have a much broader sandbox so it's harder to balance that out.
Based on the footage we've seem it looks like you could get someone at mid range. Long range is... iffy.
H2 in my experience is very much a BR game with everything else taking the back seat.
A 2x scope would be nice to have on the pistol.
The reason behind Halo 2 becoming a BR game is because the design of all the weapons in the sandbox is based purely on the SMG start and duel wielding.
SMGs aren't suppose to beat BRs, even at close range, it's tough for SMGs to beat BRs, but in my opinion, if you duel up anything, it should out play a BR at medium to close range, and should be a guarantee kill for close range against a BR, but it's not.
The original build of H2 when it launched had a punishing combo, the magnum and SMG, because the Mag supposedly went for headshots automatically. Bungie of course nerfed it...but it was amazing.
In H2A, it feels like the SMG/mag combo works good, much better than H2. Same goes for plasma rifle and smg.
Anyway, whatever the default starting weapons are for any Halo game, the entirety of the sandbox is designed around those weapons.
Same goes for AR starts in H3.
Halo 4 started to go back in the right direction with loadouts, but infinity slayer is a silly game mode.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Precision weapons are Halo though
What I don't get is this lowering the standards of play down to the people who can't aim with a two-analog stick controller. I started back in 2001 with the Xbox on Halo CE. Sure it was tough at first to use two sticks, I was used to one stick and buttons on the N64 for GoldenEye, but I eventually got the hang of the two stick controller.
Why can't everyone else learn too?
It's like Halo needs training wheels, when it's not necessary. Or those floaties for the swimming pool.
Truth and Regret? Mercy feels left out.
That map looks beautiful. Hopefully it plays well also.
Oh good you found a post from Bungie's net/web (who never, ever worked on any game design, ever) guy in 2006 and now that's everyone's design philosophy.
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