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[RowdyReverb]

I dont think there should be a scapegoat for this, but people should probably realistically lose their jobs over this. Not in an announcement way either, no one needs to know about it, they dont need to update their blog or something.

But, if im microsoft, im holding some meetings to find who is accountable and to replace some staff with people who make sure it doesnt happen again.

If you wanted to find the person responsible, you'd end up so high up the food chain that it would be unrealistic to fire them over one project. Some group of people made the (probably late) call to add H1, 3, and 4 ports to H2A and get it out by the end of 2014, and I doubt that those people were at 343. There are just too many moving parts to this project to do a root cause analysis and ensure that it doesn't happen again.
Botched projects happen in large corporations; it comes with the territory. The best they can do is demonstrate their ability to recover from these projects, and MS has been pretty good about that lately. Just think- they have funded 3.5 months of work on fixing MCC, and are they going to see any return on that investment? How many people will buy a 4-month-old game that is finally fixed? Not to mention the money they could have earned for the late ODST port has been sacrificed for the majority of buyers.

Look, I'm not telling you to be grateful for what we've received because MCC really was/is a mess, but I think you should assess what you really want from the people who made it happen. It's fine to be angry, I'm frustrated too, but I just want an eventual fix that works. People losing their jobs won't make me feel any better. Naming, blaming, and shaming isn't going to fix the game and isn't going to prevent these things from happening again.

 

[TTUVAPOR]

What to you is a genuine apology?

Fixing the game.

No amount of verbal/text/blog postings and saying "we're giving you guys "free" maps, content as a apology"....

Just fix the game. Free ODST and a multiplayer map isn't what I call giving back. ODST first of all is a single player campaign...adds nothing to the broken component which is MULTIPLAYER.

Then giving out Relic...whoopty doo. Let me guess, if MCC didn't have these issues, were they gonna try to charge us for it?

Just fix the game. Problems solved. And turn on the ranks.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Fixing the game.

No amount of verbal/text/blog postings and saying "we're giving you guys "free" maps, content as a apology"....

Just fix the game. Free ODST and a multiplayer map isn't what I call giving back. ODST first of all is a single player campaign...adds nothing to the broken component which is MULTIPLAYER.

Then giving out Relic...whoopty doo. Let me guess, if MCC didn't have these issues, were they gonna try to charge us for it?

Just fix the game. Problems solved. And turn on the ranks.

And that's what they're working on, which I agree with. They said they're sorry, they offered stuff as compensation, and they said they're working on fixes. That's all the news I need from them until they have something to deploy and show.

 

[The Jackdog]

If you wanted to find the person responsible, you'd end up so high up the food chain that it would be unrealistic to fire them over one project. Some group of people made the (probably late) call to add H1, 3, and 4 ports to H2A and get it out by the end of 2014, and I doubt that those people were at 343. There are just too many moving parts to this project to do a root cause analysis and ensure that it doesn't happen again.
Botched projects happen in large corporations; it comes with the territory. The best they can do is demonstrate their ability to recover from these projects, and MS has been pretty good about that lately. Just think- they have funded 3.5 months of work on fixing MCC, and are they going to see any return on that investment? How many people will buy a 4-month-old game that is finally fixed? Not to mention the money they could have earned for the late ODST port has been sacrificed for the majority of buyers.

Look, I'm not telling you to be grateful for what we've received because MCC really was/is a mess, but I think you should assess what you really want from the people who made it happen. It's fine to be angry, I'm frustrated too, but I just want an eventual fix that works. People losing their jobs won't make me feel any better. Naming, blaming, and shaming isn't going to fix the game and isn't going to prevent these things from happening again.

No i totally agree, I just think some new hires need to be considered for a number of areas. Producer, PR, specifically.

Mainly because the terrible PR and the fact that the games producer has literally not said a word two days before the game released after previously talking it up

 

[TTUVAPOR]

And that's what they're working on, which I agree with. They said they're sorry, they offered stuff as compensation, and they said they're working on fixes. That's all the news I need from them until they have something to deploy and show.

It needs to be like the military...stop trying to associate blame and just get the job done. Worry about the fodder later.

More things should be done like the military...

 

[Welfare]

Accountability? Falling on a sword? Why do people want blood for this? The game was rushed out in time for the holidays and it was a Frankenstein monster built from the efforts of several different studios, both of which were outside of 343's control. Additionally, we've received apologies from the director, a free month of XBL, a free additional map, ODST for free, and an afaik unprecedented level of communication regarding the status and contents of content updates. They are working to make this right, what more do you want? What would getting somebody fired or scapegoating an employee accomplish? What would we gain?

Where's the proof they were rushed? They had a deadline. They fucked up.

 

[The Jackdog]

It needs to be like the military...stop trying to associate blame and just get the job done. Worry about the fodder later.

More things should be done like the military...

ff you didnt get the job done in the first place and then it took you obscenely long to correct the job you wouldnt be advancing in rank anytime soon.

Which is a good thing, this game doesnt even have ranks to advance with

 

[The Jackdog]

Where's the proof they were rushed? They had a deadline. They fucked up.

The only thing we've heard is when Frankie does drive by posts and said the matchmaking issues were not apparent until the game launched, which is weird because reviewers only had two playlists which im fairly sure i can guess why.

 

[RowdyReverb]

343 was involved in multiple capacities, not the least of which was management of the project. They've also been responsible for post-launch maintenance. They've failed spectacularly at all of those tasks.


One impersonal, hollow, PR-speak letter months ago.


Market value of three dollars and of zero cost to 343 or Microsoft.


A map no one asked for that hasn't materialized yet in even screenshot form.


Again, no one has received this yet and there's been no word on its status. Let's not forget that the cutoff date is people who played before December 19th, screwing all the people who bought the game during the holidays or hadn't played their copies yet because they were waiting for it to get fixed. Oh, and all the people who have experienced this broken disaster over the past 70 days or so.


Constant incorrect statements as a result of miscommunication, lies, or incompetence. Communication limited to vague "updates" that give no solid information, have tried repeatedly to downplay the issue, assured people that things were coming "soon." An executive producer who has disappeared entirely so he wouldn't have to face the consumers. Communication has been a complete and utter disaster.


They're working to make the game remotely salvageable and functional over 100 days after launch and have failed at it so far. They're working to try to preserve their reputation a bit for the sake of Halo 5 sales.


A recall and refund program; the standard for when a product is not functional and has been misrepresented. Returning some of the hundreds of millions of dollars fans feel cheated out of. A working product. Some sort of accountability. A genuine apology that shows transparency and honesty. A combination of all of the above.

I should have realized what a hornet nest I was kicking by posting that. I'll just pick one point to argue.
I disagree that their communication efforts have been a disaster, especially compared to what we've seen from other companies in the past. Take the recent Nvidia 970 3 or 4 GB controversy. They took weeks to come up with a short non-apology, and offered no compensation or recourse for users. Or Apple, who routinely ignores controversy surrounding its products.
The fact is, I don't think there is much more to tell than what they already are. Do you want work logs of each employee working on the patch? Or updates that call out some programmer who made a mistake? All they can realistically offer is reassurance that they have not abandoned the project and expected delivery dates if possible, which is really all I'd expect at this point. A post-mortem analysis on the project would be nice and fascinating, but it's exactly what it says, a post-mortem.
Furthermore, because release dates they've given in the past have ended up being inaccurate, all they can do is be vague about them moving forward. It's not like they have a date and are keeping it a secret, it's that the date is always changing. Would it be any better if they gave a date that ended up being too early, and then rushed out an unfinished and potentially buggy CU just so they could keep their word?

 

[The Jackdog]

I should have realized what a hornet nest I was kicking by posting that. I'll just pick one point to argue.
I disagree that their communication efforts have been a disaster, especially compared to what we've seen from other companies in the past. Take the recent Nvidia 970 3 or 4 GB controversy. They took weeks to come up with a short non-apology, and offered no compensation or recourse for users. Or Apple, who routinely ignores controversy surrounding its products.
The fact is, I don't think there is much more to tell than what they already are. Do you want work logs of each employee working on the patch? Or updates that call out some programmer who made a mistake? All they can realistically offer is reassurance that they have not abandoned the project and expected delivery dates if possible, which is really all I'd expect at this point. A post-mortem analysis on the project would be nice and fascinating, but it's exactly what it says, a post-mortem.
Furthermore, because release dates they've given in the past have ended up being inaccurate, all they can do is be vague about them moving forward. It's not like they have a date and are keeping it a secret, it's that the date is always changing. Would it be any better if they gave a date that ended up being too early, and then rushed out an unfinished and potentially buggy CU just so they could keep their word?

Didnt blizzard recently launch a WoW expansion with a bunch of problems?

I fairly sure i remember what happened was an IMMEDIATE response from them (343 took longgggg) that not only addressed the problem, they detailed it. They gave a high level overview of what exactly happened, and the steps being made to fix it. They also credited each account for the entirety of the time the service was affected for. They also im pretty sure took questions and responded often.

343 barely updates. Barely. I dont mean posts, i mean meaningful updates. Look at the updates from the 31st to today. Every single one is the exact same. "Progress continues. Heres relic concept art". Literally all we know about this patch, that has been in development for OVER A MONTH, that had a beta and then cancelled beta, is "matchmaking and party fixes"

And the compensation, yes, it was really good compensation.....when it was announced. in early december. If the game functioned how it should a week or two after, great work. But it still doesnt.

 

[SmartWaffles]

Battlefield 4 was released on October 29, 2013, the actual "fix" for game was the netcode boost update deployed in June, and further updates in September, which are around 8 months and 11 months, respectively. Before the June netcode update the game is a mess with all over the place hit detection and severe rubberbanding, especially in its flagship mode Conquest Large, and that's only a fraction of all the problems BF4 had.

 

[RowdyReverb]

Where's the proof they were rushed? They had a deadline. They fucked up.

The problem is that the deadline was not set based on production time estimates, but rather an arbitrary anniversary. That, combined with the fact that they needed to outsource components of the package to get them done in time, leads me to believe that the launch date was likely unrealistically early. I also believe that the ports alongside H2A were a result of feature creep and the need for a megaton at E3 and were not part of the project goals at the start, despite the unification of all 4 games being one of the greatest challenges of the project, which added to the time needed to push out a finished product.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

Wait, ODST is coming to the Master Chief Collection? Why? It just doesn't fit in with the whole "Chief" theme. Give me Reach instead please since I can see Chief at the end on the Pillar of Autumn.

 

[Akai__]

Wait, ODST is coming to the Master Chief Collection? Why? It just doesn't fit in with the whole "Chief" theme. Give me Reach instead please since I can see Chief at the end on the Pillar of Autumn.

No you can't. That's not Chief in the hangar. It's Linda.

 

[The Jackdog]

The problem is that the deadline was not set based on production time estimates, but rather an arbitrary anniversary. That, combined with the fact that they needed to outsource components of the package to get them done in time, leads me to believe that the launch date was likely unrealistically early. I also believe that the ports alongside H2A were a result of feature creep and the need for a megaton at E3 and were not part of the project goals at the start, despite the unification of all 4 games being one of the greatest challenges of the project, which added to the time needed to push out a finished product.

I know i keep playing devils advocate and im sorry about that.

But its not like that anniversary snuck up on them. Its an anniversary. They knew the date. They managed the project. when you boot the game up, you see only one logo. 343. They are 100% responsible for this.

 

[CreateNowSleepLater]

What to you is a genuine apology?

How about a 100% working MCC with fileshare and ranks. I want every feature 100% working that they promised.

How about reorganizing the studio. Obviously there is a problem, sure the higher ups might be pushing but from a vision standpoint they are lost. For every person who likes H5 there is another who feels like its going the opposite direction.

 

[RowdyReverb]

I know i keep playing devils advocate and im sorry about that.

But its not like that anniversary snuck up on them. Its an anniversary. They knew the date. They managed the project. when you boot the game up, you see only one logo. 343. They are 100% responsible for this.

You're right about having advanced notice of the due date, and it's telling that the most polished aspect of the package is H2A because it was planned to be launched on H2's anniversary for years. If we roll with my assumption that the 4-in-1 idea was introduced late in the project's development, it would make sense that the other ports and the unified UI and matchmaking would be the most unpolished aspects of the collection and the least likely to be prepared in time for launch.

 

[Glass]

The fact that 343 made a functioning Halo 4 and a beta that worked better then MCC 8 months before release tells me MCC issues aren't incompetence but a result of Microsoft demanding it be released in time for the holidays lest they fell even further behind the competition.

The whole Microsoft/343 relationship is pretty unique right? 343's game represents Xbox. It's unequivocally a system seller. And maybe its because of this unique relationship people will never get the kind of communication they truly want out of the developers? Not because they don't know how to communicate in that manner, but because there's an iron-Microsoft-grip around what 343 is allowed to say when it comes to MCC issues? I just get the impression everything that we hear from 343 has to be vetted by someone whose main interest isn't games or customer communication but rather Microsoft's' bottom line. Of course it could also be time to put the tinfoil hat down.

 

[Welfare]

You're right about having advanced notice of the due date, and it's telling that the most polished aspect of the package is H2A because it was planned to be launched on H2's anniversary for years. If we roll with my assumption that the 4-in-1 idea was introduced late in the project's development, it would make sense that the other ports and the unified UI and matchmaking would be the most unpolished aspects of the collection and the least likely to be prepared in time for launch.

The ntkrnl leak was that it was just going to be Halo 2A and ports of Halo 3 and 4.

In fact, here it is:

That is the plan.

Let me reiterate some of the Halo stuff, as there is some confusion and I didn't lay all the cards down.

Two versions of H2A.

Collectors Edition with the Beta access, the Halo series (not the Blomkamp one)

War Collection with the above, as well as ports of Halo 3 & 4 for XB1.

So they knew what they were doing.

And fuck. Everytime I look at that thread, his comment on the Halo 5 beta was on fucking point. We knew all along.

 

[FyreWulff]

You're right about having advanced notice of the due date, and it's telling that the most polished aspect of the package is H2A because it was planned to be launched on H2's anniversary for years. If we roll with my assumption that the 4-in-1 idea was introduced late in the project's development, it would make sense that the other ports and the unified UI and matchmaking would be the most unpolished aspects of the collection and the least likely to be prepared in time for launch.

I believe they actually said this themselves in one of their hype-vids after E3, that it started as just Halo 2A and then they added the other ones in.

 

[singhr1]

Wait, ODST is coming to the Master Chief Collection? Why? It just doesn't fit in with the whole "Chief" theme. Give me Reach instead please since I can see Chief at the end on the Pillar of Autumn.

The Chief's battle with the Covenant in New Mombasa leading to the slip-space jump was the cause that caused the ODST squad to separate upon drop. So to some extent it features the Chief.

Would love to see Reach, though, too. Without that excessive motion blur effect, that game should be quite a looker.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

The Chief's battle with the Covenant in New Mombasa leading to the slip-space jump was the cause that caused the ODST squad to separate upon drop. So to some extent it features the Chief.

Would love to see Reach, though, too. Without that excessive motion blur effect, that game should be quite a looker.

Yup they need to just bite the bullet and add reach also. Hell it could be the freebie when we hit the 200 days broken mark.

 

[Ghazi]

Are dedis still a thing coming to MCC? I can't get into any matches to decide if they're there.

 

[Darknight34]

Yup they need to just bite the bullet and add reach also. Hell it could be the freebie when we hit the 200 days broken mark.

I agree... but.... right now I'm desperate for just a working MCC.

 

[CyReN]

Maybe they are delaying it to release MCC Turbo™, get a livestream going showing people finding matches and comedic moments around the studio.

 

[Glass]

Would love to see Reach, though, too. Without that excessive motion blur effect, that game should be quite a looker.

I'm itching to play some Reach campaign on XB1 too. After all the sexy upscaling done to the other games, they can't leave that one title on its own.

 

[RowdyReverb]

I believe they actually said this themselves in one of their hype-vids after E3, that it started as just Halo 2A and then they added the other ones in.

I thought I heard that somewhere, but couldn't remember where, thanks. I guess the only questions are when they made that decision and whether or not there was enough time to complete that ambitious project before the anniversary. The world may never know.

 

[FyreWulff]

Yup they need to just bite the bullet and add reach also. Hell it could be the freebie when we hit the 200 days broken mark.

Only if Firefight is there too. ODST without Firefight and Reach without Firefight is half the game missing.

 

[Karl2177]

Just the Reach campaign? There aren't enough babydaves in the world

 

[User 73706]

Just make people pay for the Firefight expansion pack, of course!

 

[willow ve]

Only if Firefight is there too. ODST without Firefight and Reach without Firefight is half the game missing.

ODST has a great campaign, but the fun was Firefight.

ODST should have Firefight (it won't in MCC) and they should add matchmaking for it (they won't do this either).

 

[Booshka]

Remake only Oddball Swordbase in a Squad Slayer playlist.

 

[Karl2177]

Remake only Oddball Swordbase in a Squad Slayer playlist.

This is 343, it would be TU Beta Slayer, not Squad Slayer.

RIP

 

[AlStrong]

Where's the proof they were rushed? They had a deadline. They fucked up.

Spartan Ops wasn't even part of the package on day 1.

 

[Overdoziz]

fucking squad slayer
jesus christ frankie

 

[Sec0nd]

Did they change the time limit for the multikills to whenever you please? I sure do like getting Killimanjaro's but there's 5+ seconds between my triple kill and overkill and 6+ seconds between overkill and killtacular lol.

http://xboxclips.com/The+Sec0nd+E/1512c10f-1938-4f07-8d0f-abd284fc456b

 

[FyreWulff]

Did they change the time limit for the multikills to whenever you please? I sure do like getting Killimanjaro's but there's 5+ seconds between my triple kill and overkill and 6+ seconds between overkill and killtacular lol.

http://xboxclips.com/The+Sec0nd+E/1512c10f-1938-4f07-8d0f-abd284fc456b

multikill medals have always had a bit of 'give' to them in multiplayer due to how the networking works, the host errs on the side of giving you the medal if it's close

compare this to Firefight or Campaign with scoring on in the same games, it's much harder to streak due to the timer being client-side, even in internet co-op sessions

 

[Sec0nd]

multikill medals have always had a bit of 'give' to them in multiplayer due to how the networking works, the host errs on the side of giving you the medal if it's close

compare this to Firefight or Campaign with scoring on in the same games, it's much harder to streak due to the timer being client-side, even in internet co-op sessions

Partly being a montage kid back in H2 and H3 I was always fighting the time limit for epic multikills. It was pretty much always spot on. Never have I experienced such a massive delay between kills and still see the medal pop. Pretty strange. Not really a complaint though, just weird.

 

[Ricky Ricardo]

I was just doing some Accounting homework, punching numbers for corporate stock transactions while listening to Halo 5 Menu Music. My final tally for a particular journal entry is 117,000,000 on the nose.

Coincidence? I think not.

Halo is saved fam

 

[jailbird20022]

At this point the actual bet should be "will it remain broken for longer than Battlefield 4 did?". Because you need to be really damn trying to break that record.

That feel when I played battlefield 4 last night with 4 other friends without a hitch, remembers how that wasn't even remotely possible at launch.

That said, mad props to DICE LA for cleaning up after Stockholm. Only wish 343 had their level of management.

 

[FyreWulff]

Partly being a montage kid back in H2 and H3 I was always fighting the time limit for epic multikills. It was pretty much always spot on. Never have I experienced such a massive delay between kills and still see the medal pop. Pretty strange. Not really a complaint though, just weird.

You could have possibly been host or on a really good latency, but medal popup is entirely host controlled. This is also why you lose streak medals in host switches, because only the host is tracking it and cannot be recovered if the host suddenly leaves.


Basically the host is looking for the conditions for a medal to happen, so a delay can happen between:

you completing the action (firing the shot)

host sees the shot

host tells your xbox to kill that player's player model on the field

host computes if you should get a medal (which can be slowed a bit if the host is under load)

host sends the "pop this medal on the client's screen in the medal queue"

then your client getting that message and popping the medal


The behavior you saw in that clip, I've seen happen in H2, H3, H4, and Reach.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Oh hey! I found a Halo community thread on NeoGAF!

Good to find this here.

Please forgive me as I have no idea how many countless wars and debates have been started by HaloGAF, but I do hope to be a great new member. Growing up with Halo, it's awesome to see a lot of people here like myself.

Seeming as you're new here, let me tell you the basics.

I'm considered pretty important here, be by my side and all will be well, if not then what happened to OddOne will happen to you.

Also don't talk about Sonic 06 to Ram, don't even mention Sonic at all. If you do, what happened to Starwolf will happen to you.

Also don't even mention Halo here, if you do, what happened to Heckfu will happen to you.

 

[jem0208]

Seeming as you're new here, let me tell you the basics.

I'm considered pretty important here, be by my side and all will be well, if not then what happened to OddOne will happen to you.

Also don't talk about Sonic 06 to Ram, don't even mention Sonic at all. If you do, what happened to Starwolf will happen to you.

Also don't even mention Halo here, if you do, what happened to Heckfu will happen to you.

To add to this, no one here actually likes Halo. We're just here to complain.

 

[Welfare]

To add to this, no one here actually likes Halo. We're just here to complain.

What's Halo? I thought this was the Alien OT.

 

[Andrew Ryan]

ODST has a great campaign, but the fun was Firefight.

ODST should have Firefight (it won't in MCC) and they should add matchmaking for it (they won't do this either).

And it will be firefight where you can only play with friends, so basically most wouldn't touch it

 

[Ghazi]

Don't ever ask to play games with Elzar, he'll suddenly have to leave when you do.

Spoiler

 

[Mdot]

No you can't. That's not Chief in the hangar. It's Linda.

Isn't he in cryo sleep on the shuttle off of Reach, along with Cortana? My memory...she fades.

 

[Karl2177]

Don't ever ask to play games with Elzar, he'll suddenly have to leave when you do.

Spoiler

Yep. Instead of asking, just join in immediately. Don't let him say no.

 

[Mistel]

No you can't. That's not Chief in the hangar. It's Linda.

Isn't he in cryo sleep on the shuttle off of Reach, along with Cortana? My memory...she fades.

That's Chief you see in the cutscene Marcus Lehto said it was.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Don't ever ask to play games with Elzar, he'll suddenly have to leave when you do.

Spoiler

I'm telling you right now, you always asked as I was leaving.

It was freaky the amount of times it happened.