Support NeoGAF

[Random17]

A video series is pointless, since the majority of the fans (especially the newcomers) will not come across those videos and they will be just as confused in the game. Halo trailers barely get above 2 million views now in most instances, let alone extra content such as that. That's like 5 million fans who haven't seen the trailer, let alone a lore video.

The only way they can do that is by integrating it into the game.

A Codex system like in Mass Effect could work. It would certainly help clear up some of the inconsistencies in the lore, too, since anything in the game is the highest canon. I don't know much about development, but a Codex system shouldn't be too hard to implement, right? It's not like we are making an extra campaign mission!

The terminals are kind of like a codex system, but
A. Not everyone comes across them
B. Most of the terminals talk about the backstory details. They don't go over the major plot points. This is a great thing for the hardcore fans, but that's why the terminals cannot and should not be used for this purpose.

The harder alternative is to introduce the old story through exposition, but there is a limit to how much you can add in. With Blue team on the horizon however, I can only see more confusion for many of the fans.

 

[jem0208]

You make it about what's currently happening and you make what's currently happening be of high quality.
Anything else is to be lightly peppered in with references, if at all.

We know that's not going to happen though. They're already including Blue Team which will have to be explained to the majority of people. I'm sure there's a bunch of other things they'll be including from the rest of the lore.

A video series is pointless, since the majority of the fans (especially the newcomers) will not come across those videos and they will be just as confused in the game. Halo trailers barely get above 2 million views now in most instances, let alone extra content such as that. That's like 5 million fans who haven't seen the trailer, let alone a lore video.

The only way they can do that is by integrating it into the game.

A Codex system like in Mass Effect could work. It would certainly help clear up some of the inconsistencies in the lore, too, since anything in the game is the highest canon. I don't know much about development, but a Codex system shouldn't be too hard to implement, right? It's not like we are making an extra campaign mission!

The terminals are kind of like a codex system, but
A. Not everyone comes across them
B. Most of the terminals talk about the backstory details. They don't go over the major plot points. This is a great thing for the hardcore fans, but that's why the terminals cannot and should not be used for this purpose.

The harder alternative is to introduce the old story through exposition, but there is a limit to how much you can add in. With Blue team on the horizon however, I can only see more confusion for many of the fans.

My idea was that the video series would be included with the game. You'd be prompted when starting up the campaign with an option to watch the lore videos. They'd basically be a series of extended prologue cutscenes.

As for the other ideas, I agree. I don't think terminals work that well; hiding important story details behind hidden collectables is a bad idea in both theory and practice. They've never really worked well for anything but supplementary story details.

Exposition during the story could potentially work, but as you said it would limit them to how much they can actually include. If they go all out with this route we'll have a whole bunch of "Librarian" cutscenes.

 

[Fuchsdh]

To be fair, what else are they going to do? Unless they just disregard half of Halo's lore and not include it. The best way to do it IMO would be a big (optional, you can choose which chapters to watch) lore dump at the start which brings everyone up to speed on the Halo universe.

They can't be explaining everything as the player goes through the game or we'll be left with a bunch of Halo 4 Librarian cutscenes; a massive amount of lore squeezed into a small cutscene in the middle of the game's already somewhat difficult to follow story. A far better time would be before the game begins where players can have some time to figure out exactly what all that lore meant before being thrown into the story.

If they don't have the lore dump they have two options:

- Disregard the other lore which is clearly not going to happen.
- Explain everything during the game, which as I explained above is not a good option as shown by H4.

Halo 4 isn't really a good example of explaining everything in the game, in that key elements were hidden. Lots of games do this (Bioshock comes to mind) but the expectation for a shooter like Halo seems to be that they need to be more upfront about it. (At the very least, the fact that terminals couldn't be played in-game due to the late delivery is probably what made sure the majority of people just didn't care, even if they found one or two.)

People tend to underestimate their audiences and treat them like their idiots with plot dumps, which is not gainly and ends up alienating people more. For their faults with storytelling, Bungie understood with the Halo games that you have to keep things fast and light, and invite players to look deeper and get invested in what you're telling them about. It's not rocket science, but it does take skill and careful plotting and mission design.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

We know that's not going to happen though. They're already including Blue Team which will have to be explained to the majority of people. I'm sure there's a bunch of other things they'll be including from the rest of the lore.

These are the team John trained with. Kelly's fast, Fred's cool, Linda's a walking ice block.
That's all you need. John really appreciates their help. Move on.

No extended attempt to communicate how much you should care about them because of what they did before matters, make the player care about them now by implying a previous history but focusing on what they do now.

Basically, you talk about how great they, how dangerous they are, all they have done and have it mean actually absolute zip when you transistion to gameplay where they're a bunch of dumb, useless sponges / enemy distractions, i.e. Noble Team.

Halo 4 isn't really a good example of explaining everything in the game, in that key elements were hidden. Lots of games do this (Bioshock comes to mind) but the expectation for a shooter like Halo seems to be that they need to be more upfront about it. (At the very least, the fact that terminals couldn't be played in-game due to the late delivery is probably what made sure the majority of people just didn't care, even if they found one or two.)

People tend to underestimate their audiences and treat them like their idiots with plot dumps, which is not gainly and ends up alienating people more. For their faults with storytelling, Bungie understood with the Halo games that you have to keep things fast and light, and invite players to look deeper and get invested in what you're telling them about. It's not rocket science, but it does take skill and careful plotting and mission design.

This too.

 

[Fuchsdh]

These are the team John trained with. Kelly's fast, Fred's cool, Linda's a walking ice block.
That's all you need. John really appreciates their help. Move on.

No extended attempt to communicate how much you should care about them because of what they did before matters, make the player care about them now by implying a previous history but focusing on what they do now.

Basically, you talk about how great they, how dangerous they are, all they have done and have it mean actually absolute zip when you transistion to gameplay where they're a bunch of dumb, useless sponges / enemy distractions, i.e. Noble Team.


This too.

This is one of the reasons why I really, really get frustrated with Reach on Legendary. Noble Team just turns into a bunch of constant armor-locking sponges that are not useful for much else besides a temporary distraction.

At some point, we really need better allied AI in Halo games.

 

[jem0208]

Halo 4 isn't really a good example of explaining everything in the game, in that key elements were hidden. Lots of games do this (Bioshock comes to mind) but the expectation for a shooter like Halo seems to be that they need to be more upfront about it. (At the very least, the fact that terminals couldn't be played in-game due to the late delivery is probably what made sure the majority of people just didn't care, even if they found one or two.)

People tend to underestimate their audiences and treat them like their idiots with plot dumps, which is not gainly and ends up alienating people more. For their faults with storytelling, Bungie understood with the Halo games that you have to keep things fast and light, and invite players to look deeper and get invested in what you're telling them about. It's not rocket science, but it does take skill and careful plotting and mission design.

The Halo 4 example was in reference to the Librarian cutscene; a massive lore dump right in the middle of the game which completely interrupted the flow of the action whilst also not giving the player any time to digest said lore.

The terminals were just another issue.

These are the team John trained with. Kelly's fast, Fred's cool, Linda's a walking ice block.
That's all you need. John really appreciates their help. Move on.

No extended attempt to communicate how much you should care about them because of what they did before matters, make the player care about them now by implying a previous history but focusing on what they do now.

Basically, you talk about how great they, how dangerous they are, all they have done and have it mean actually absolute zip when you transistion to gameplay where they're a bunch of dumb, useless sponges / enemy distractions, i.e. Noble Team.


This too.

My idea is running under the assumption that H5 is going to incorporate a lot of the extended lore. Which I think is reasonable considering what 343 has been saying about including the extra lore.

Regardless, even if the game doesn't take into account the extended universe much, I don't see why having an optional video series explaining and condensing the story so far would be a bad thing. It would provide context for those who aren't familiar and would be a nice refresher for those who are.

 

[haikira]

Never poked my head into the Halo side of Neogaf. Hey guys.

Got the MCC for my birthday recently, and have been digging into it. Mostly been playing through the third game so far. Though I've tried the other campaigns briefly, as I was just curious to see how they were in the collection.

I've also tried some multiplayer. I'm aware of the infamy surrounding the online portion, and I was expecting the worst, but out of the few matches played I've had no issues. Was pleasantly surprised.

Think I'm going to play through all four main games in order before five is out, and maybe even ODST and Reach. I was just wondering, what are the essential books, comics, and shows to go through? I've got The Fall Of Reach in my amazon basket currently, but looking for any other suggestions. Really want to be up on the lore.

Lastly, is it possible for me to jump in on any Neogaf games of MCC sometime?

 

[AlStrong]

A Codex system like in Mass Effect could work. It would certainly help clear up some of the inconsistencies in the lore, too, since anything in the game is the highest canon. I don't know much about development, but a Codex system shouldn't be too hard to implement, right? It's not like we are making an extra campaign mission!

They sort of did one for CEA.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Never poked my head into the Halo side of Neogaf. Hey guys.

Got the MCC for my birthday recently, and have been digging into it. Mostly been playing through the third game so far. Though I've tried the other campaigns briefly, as I was just curious to see how they were in the collection.

I've also tried some multiplayer. I'm aware of the infamy surrounding the online portion, and I was expecting the worst, but out of the few matches played I've had no issues. Was pleasantly surprised.

Think I'm going to play through all four main games in order before five is out, and maybe even ODST and Reach. I was just wondering, what are the essential books, comics, and shows to go through? I've got The Fall Of Reach in my amazon basket currently, but looking for any other suggestions. Really want to be up on the lore.

Lastly, is it possible for me to jump in on any Neogaf games of MCC sometime?

Welcome!

If you want to talk lore stuff, the dedicated Halo Lore thread is probably the best place to do it. FUD has some recommended game and book chronologies if you're interested more in the essential stuff.

Also, here's a list of people's GTs. http://halogaf.com/gamertags/ Hitting people up who post here is probably a good option for finding friends to play with.

 

[haikira]

Welcome!

If you want to talk lore stuff, the dedicated Halo Lore thread is probably the best place to do it. FUD has some recommended game and book chronologies if you're interested more in the essential stuff.

Also, here's a list of people's GTs. http://halogaf.com/gamertags/ Hitting people up who post here is probably a good option for finding friends to play with.

Thanks for all the links and info =D

 

[FollowTheWind]

Thanks for all the links and info =D

I'll send you a message on XBL, looking for people to party up with as well. Kind of sick of the either win by a tremendous amount, or lose by an even more tremendous amount.

 

[Tawpgun]

Halo 3

Scrubs can't handle best halo in the collection.

Could be faster tho, MLG had it right

 

[Stinkles]

This is one of the reasons why I really, really get frustrated with Reach on Legendary. Noble Team just turns into a bunch of constant armor-locking sponges that are not useful for much else besides a temporary distraction.

At some point, we really need better allied AI in Halo games.

I agree.

 

[Fracas]

Halo AI is so weird. The quality goes all over the place across the series.

 

[Orochinagis]

I better find a warthog and use them as unlimited rocket launcher turrets, letting Kat use the revenant is pure bliss

 

[NobleGundam]

We need H3 quality A.I. in future halo games.
Probably the smartest next to Promy Knights.

 

[Poker Face]

I agree.

Interesting.


I feel like someone, somewhere, mentioned your allies were dumb to make the player feel like they were powerful or something.

 

[wwm0nkey]

I agree.

F.E.A.R 1 level AI's or bust!

*No seriously though, please*

 

[Fuchsdh]

I better find a warthog and use them as unlimited rocket launcher turrets, letting Kat use the revenant is pure bliss

I've found she's much more aggressive than Marines using the Wraith turret, as well. I usually use any option other than the Warthog on Sword base, really.

Interesting.


I feel like someone, somewhere, mentioned your allies were dumb to make the player feel like they were powerful or something.

There’s definitely a line to walk. Marines shouldn’t be mopping the floor with the Covenant since we’re supposed to be the Big Damn Heroes. But at the same time, having the AI only start firing at point blank range, or ignoring the important targets (on Reclaimer, I noticed that the gunners would switch targets from the Wraiths to fire at incoming Ghosts on Phantoms) cripples the player, and for story reasons other Spartans should feel as strong as you, even if it’s only a perception and not actual stats.

I’ve always felt like the difficulty modifiers boosting the Covenant HP levels and turning allies into paper mache bothersome as well, but I understand the reasoning. “Canon difficulty” has always been somewhere between Normal and Heroic for me.

 

[Random17]

My idea was that the video series would be included with the game. You'd be prompted when starting up the campaign with an option to watch the lore videos. They'd basically be a series of extended prologue cutscenes.

Sounds feasible.

As for the other ideas, I agree. I don't think terminals work that well; hiding important story details behind hidden collectables is a bad idea in both theory and practice. They've never really worked well for anything but supplementary story details.

I don't think any of the terminals, in 3, CEA and 4 covered any significant plot points, just supplementary details. One exception would be the last Terminal in Halo 3 with MB, but that is only because of its significance at the time, since Halo 4 did not exist.

I love the terminals, as do many other lore fans I know of because of their supplementary nature. It feels like the terminals' target audience are the hardcore lore fans. Halo 2 A had some brilliant scenes with the Taming of the Hunters/Grunt Rebellion, and that was simply a passing remark by Mercy ingame!

Exposition during the story could potentially work, but as you said it would limit them to how much they can actually include. If they go all out with this route we'll have a whole bunch of "Librarian" cutscenes.

You'd need a longer campaign and spread out exposition for it to work. That, or they could integrate it into the gameplay dialogue, which was advantageous in Halo 4.

Unfortunately I don't think the campaign will be very long (I expect it to be an hour longer than Halo 4 tops, so 6-7 hours on Heroic).

 

[Random17]

Halo AI is so weird. The quality goes all over the place across the series.

It's even weirder when it varies by species across the games. The jump for shielded Jackals accuracy, agility and aggression from CE to 2 is incredible, but consequently the Elites become less maneuverable and aggressive in 2 compared to CE.

Edit: Oops, dp.

 

[Impala26]

F.E.A.R 1 level AI's or bust!

*No seriously though, please*

sogood.gif

F.E.A.R. is a dark horse CLASSIC game that is in my top 10 games of all-time list.

 

[Forerunner]

sogood.gif

F.E.A.R. is a dark horse CLASSIC game that is in my top 10 games of all-time list.

Too bad the other two are trash. Ok, maybe not trash, but they weren't good.

 

[Stinkles]

Interesting.


I feel like someone, somewhere, mentioned your allies were dumb to make the player feel like they were powerful or something.

You have to balance a few things:

1. Believability - they should act naturally and helpfully. This is an umbrella for everything else.
2. Actual smarts - can they do the things you want them to?
3. Player empowerment - are they helping you in a balanced way, or mopping up stuff you want to destroy, or are they impeding your progress.

 

[Impala26]

Too bad the other two are trash. Ok, maybe not trash, but they weren't good.

There's a footnote to F.E.A.R. 2 and F.3.A.R. at the bottom of the Merriam-Webster's Dictionary entry for "average".

lol

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Noble team's AI was still better than some of the team mates you get on mm.

 

[HTupolev]

It's even weirder when it varies by species across the games. The jump for shielded Jackals accuracy, agility and aggression from CE to 2 is incredible

...What?

Halo 2's jackals have really choppy high-speed actions (i.e. grenade dodges), but their actual behavior has always struck me as extremely statue-like. Not that Halo 1's jackals the most aggressive enemies out there, but I've definitely had scary moments where they've tried to run me down around a bend when I'm vulnerable.

Accuracy is a weird issue because the accuracy of AI enemies changes drastically by difficulty level in CE. On legendary the jackals are pretty good shots.

 

[Haruko]

Noble team's AI was still better than some of the team mates you get on mm.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Too bad the other two are trash. Ok, maybe not trash, but they weren't good.

They were Meh. WHY DID THEY SCRAP THAT AI SYSTEM THO!

Also aiming was clunky and MP sucked in 2/3.

Would kill for a new F.E.A.R SP that was set up more like 1 and they copied the slowmo system from Max Payne 3 for MP.

 

[Plywood]

We need H3 quality A.I. in future halo games.
Probably the smartest next to Promy Knights.

Promethean Knights smart? HAH.

 

[TheOddOne]

Noble team's AI was still better than some of the team mates you get on mm.

Yeah, still furious about that guy that drove me off a cliff.

Spoiler

It was you, Elzar. You scummy, scummy, man.

 

[FollowTheWind]

Yeah, still furious about that guy that drove me off a cliff.

Spoiler

It was you, Elzar. You scummy, scummy, man.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, omg. I'm guilty of doing that at times as well. Once managed to also hijack the enemy driver and the turret guy didn't notice. Drove both of us off the side.

 

[jailbird20022]

Hijack gunner spot
Enemy driver is still driving you around.

can someone explain this, it's been happening since H2.

 

[Poker Face]

You have to balance a few things:

1. Believability - they should act naturally and helpfully. This is an umbrella for everything else.
2. Actual smarts - can they do the things you want them to?
3. Player empowerment - are they helping you in a balanced way, or mopping up stuff you want to destroy, or are they impeding your progress.

https://youtu.be/2MmGPWZQpDc?t=1m42s

Spoiler

this is hilarious though

 

[Orochinagis]

You have to balance a few things:

1. Believability - they should act naturally and helpfully. This is an umbrella for everything else.
2. Actual smarts - can they do the things you want them to?
3. Player empowerment - are they helping you in a balanced way, or mopping up stuff you want to destroy, or are they impeding your progress.

Mass Effect 2 squad commands were amazing.

I was expecting something similar in Halo Reach's noble team

 

[Mistel]

Hijack gunner spot
Enemy driver is still driving you around.

can someone explain this, it's been happening since H2.

In reach the driver would get out if you got in, think it does that in 4 too.

 

[Fuchsdh]

In reach the driver would get out if you got in, think it does that in 4 too.

Is he talking about campaign or multiplayer? Because I definitely remember happily plugging people with the Hog in Reach while the enemy driver keeps moving me around, oblivious. Some people just get into the zone, I guess.

 

[Ramirez]

I agree.

Didn't someone say the lead of that game is at 343 now?

heh

Stalker's post meant Halo 3 was amazing, just like caramel and chocolate together. Carmelo, Rollo, etc.

 

[daedalius]

Didn't someone say the lead of that game is at 343 now?

heh

Stalker's post meant Halo 3 was amazing, just like caramel and chocolate together. Carmelo, Rollo, etc.

I guess I should really play this.

 

[Mistel]

Is he talking about campaign or multiplayer? Because I definitely remember happily plugging people with the Hog in Reach while the enemy driver keeps moving me around, oblivious. Some people just get into the zone, I guess.

I assume campaign as it's unlikely that somebody would want the driver thrown out just because you hijacked a passenger/gunner.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

Didn't someone say the lead of that game is at 343 now?

heh

Stalker's post meant Halo 3 was amazing, just like caramel and chocolate together. Carmelo, Rollo, etc.

Tim Longo

There was a rumour back in 2014 that the campaign got a redesign after Longo joined. And that this was the reason for H5's 2015 release.

 

[FollowTheWind]

Tim Longo

There was a rumour back in 2014 that the campaign got a redesign after Longo joined. And that this was the reason for H5's 2015 release.

No way!! Exciting then, loved the game

p.s congrats on no longer junior title

 

[Poodlestrike]

Tim Longo

There was a rumour back in 2014 that the campaign got a redesign after Longo joined. And that this was the reason for H5's 2015 release.

God, I hope that's true. Republic Commando is one of my all-time favorites.

 

[NobleGundam]

Promethean Knights smart? HAH.

If you payed attention to their behavior they're pretty intelligent in terms of combat.
Now based on gameplay you vs promy knight their ability to dodge, shoot + dodge, evade (phase retreat), aggro (blade melee + jump or phase charge). The only thing that really separates them between other AI like Elites and Brutes in H3 is their inability to interact with objects to use like turrets and vehicles. Now when you compare the Elites and Brutes using Jetpack for ex. they take time for planning in attacking and retreating moving from point A low ground to point B high ground to get a better position to either heal or regroup OR go for the offensive. This also can be said for how Brutes defy gravity to get a hit on you when berserk with aim assist. Promy knights have to target you, get into berserk mode, and position themselves to get a clear straight shot. They don't phase charge you and insta-kill with aim bot. It's either a swing + hit or swing and a miss. There's also a big lack in using plasma pistols to better handle them quicker. That was purposely designed for you to use their own class of weaponry. Not really fun.

The promy knight with the incinerate cannon is lame though. And knights don't visually and vocally give you an advantage to predict behavior in your favor either.

 

[RedSparrows]

I like Knights. Proper challenge. Sometimes annoying.

 

[GringoSuave89]

Republic Commando is $2.99 on steam right now, for those that want to try it. PC requirements should be low since it's an older game.

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Republic Commando is $2.99 on steam right now, for those that want to try it. PC requirements should be low since it's an older game.

Its good because it's a solid star wars shooter with some okay team elements and okay characters.

It stinks in level design and playability. Virtually the only interesting thing about the game design is the multifunction weapon which is far from special.

I'm a fan of the game. It's not without potential. Republic Commando 2/Imperial Commando could have been really good. The Halo 3 engine always made me want a Star Wars game on it.

 

[TheOddOne]

Old RebelFM podcast with Tim Longo talking about Republic Commando.

He name drops Halo, if that is your thing. You're weird, but that isn't ok.

 

[jem0208]

So apparently the H2A playlist is 4v4 now.

 

[Impala26]

Old RebelFM podcast with Tim Longo talking about Republic Commando.

He name drops Halo, if that is your thing. You're weird, but that isn't ok.

I outta has was when this shit shat out your like 15? if i ever so ignorant i could be a first place he be up all tied up he second palce..

Spoiler

read: wut?

Spoiler

I'm also totally making BreakawayMetal's post a thing XD