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[FyreWulff]

AI generally works by placing AI nodes and firing points around the map. This is also used to control where they'll fire from, where they can drive to, etc etc so you can set certain nodes as transition points where they won't try to use them as firing spots.

While it's possible to expose the AI stuff to the end user, it's generally a pain in the ass to rig and understand. Take the difficulty of forging Invasion in Reach and multiply it by 100. It would have to be an editor near unto itself

The time investment to make an AI map editor is probably not worth it for the extremely low % of users that would actually use it, which would be a subset of the subset of people that ever even use Forge itself.

I know this. I'm saying playing on forged Warzone maps in a different game mode. I can understand we wouldn't be able to play Warzone on forged maps, however I don't see why we couldn't play standard BTB on forged Warzone maps.

issue there is Warzone might be performance sensitive already, so Forge would be near useless on the map anyway.

 

[Akai__]

Bungie was asked this question when they came out with firefight and it has to do with how they can't program the AI around user generated objects. I know nothing about coding but it has everything to do with the AI programing.

It's not that they can't do it, but they don't want to invest their time doing it.

I'm playing arround in the Unreal Engine 4 and I created my own maps for Unreal Tournament (since UT is an open development game) and the AI pathing worked on every map, except on maybe one so far. UT has some really smart AI, which can bypass obstacles most of the time and knows exactly where to go. Of course you will have to make sure, that you followed the guidelines for the AI to work, but once you have that, it just works.

Bots aren't exactly a new thing, but I can see why they wouldn't care for them in custom created maps for console games, as you really would need an editor for that purpose alone. However, they could totally add bots for the maps that ship with the game and let us play with and against them. It would help people, who are just getting into Halo and don't know how to play yet and it would help people who don't have friends online and just want to play some custom games.

 

[Tawpgun]

Does no Warzone customs mean regular BTB and customs in general are 16 player lobbies again?





Also, I for one am quite please that dumb kids get to buy dumb kid weapon packs for the dumb kid mode to subsidize my arena DLC maps.

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

How hard is it to ship a game with all of its game modes?

Like honestly.

Btb is more ingrained in Halo's DNA than Warzone.

You could have a BtB beta to alleviate concerns (ya know, like your boss said: all halo games will have a beta).

I'm so weary of incomplete content on ship.

 

[Captain Friendo]

You could have a BtB beta to alleviate concerns (ya know, like your boss said: all halo games will have a beta).

I'm so weary of incomplete content on ship.

You say that like she's lying, Halo 5's had a beta.

 

[20ozSlayer]

It's not that they can't do it, but they don't want to invest their time doing it.

I'm playing arround in the Unreal Engine 4 and I created my own maps for Unreal Tournament (since UT is an open development game) and the AI pathing worked on every map, except on maybe one so far. UT has some really smart AI, which can bypass obstacles most of the time and knows exactly where to go. Of course you will have to make sure, that you followed the guidelines for the AI to work, but once you have that, it just works.

Bots aren't exactly a new thing, but I can see why they wouldn't care for them in custom created maps for console games, as you really would need an editor for that purpose alone. However, they could totally add bots for the maps that ship with the game and let us play with and against them. It would help people, who are just getting into Halo and don't know how to play yet and it would help people who don't have friends online and just want to play some custom games.

My bad. I know nothing about programming. Thanks for the clarification

 

[TS x Massacre]

Also, I for one am quite please that dumb kids get to buy dumb kid weapon packs for the dumb kid mode to subsidize my arena DLC maps.

Preachin' to the choir

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

You say that like she's lying, Halo 5's had a beta.

A 4v4 arena beta, which isn't indicative of the whole playerbase.

But now we are getting a gimmick btb while classic btb is shoved off to the side until, "after launch".

 

[Slightly Live]

We've talked about this here at E3 so I expect it will come out in the press coverage over the next couple of days. For Warzone we have two different variants planned:

1. The core mode, which is focused on the combination of 12v12 player-versus-player action, base capture and AI-controlled combatants (including bosses). This is what we are demoing and is playable here on the E3 show floor.

2. A Base Assault attack/defend scenario in which one team is attempting to defend each base on a map and the other is pressing to capture the base and push them back in timed phases. The defenders are attempting to hold the base until time runs out. As the attackers manage to capture each base, they force the defenders back and extend time until they are assaulting the Home Base of the defending team and trying to destroy their core. This variant focuses solely on PvP without AI adversaries.

The mode plays differently depending on the variant. In addition, we are working on a more classic BTB experience with timed weapon and vehicle spawns, and this will be introduced shortly after launch with a number of maps specifically optimized for BTB.

Despite the disappointment of it not making launch, the straight up honesty here is very, very much appreciated.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

A 4v4 arena beta, which isn't indicative of the whole playerbase.

But now we are getting a gimmick btb while classic btb is shoved off to the side until, "after launch".

Rag, you were just saying the other day that BTB is for mindless casuals. Not only is it odd that you are complaining about a lack of traditional BTB at launch, but you call this new mode a "gimmick" before you even play it. It actually looks quite impressive to a lot of us.

We all want a complete game when we get it, but I would hardly call a lack of a specific playlist "incomplete." They clearly have focused a lot on arena and skillful gameplay.

 

[Akai__]

My bad. I know nothing about programming. Thanks for the clarification

But you are still right in the context with Bungie. Their engine wasn't optimized for AI enemies on MP maps. Modders found a way to spawn AI on maps, but they don't actually work, as they are coliding with every obstacle on the map like you said. In some cases, they wouldn't even move. If you are more interested in these things, here's a pretty good channel: Link

I wished we would get more detailed information about Halo AI, because I'm very interested in these things. I'm probably in the minority, though.

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

Rag, you were just saying the other day that BTB is for mindless casuals. Not only is it odd that you are complaining about a lack of traditional BTB at launch, but you call this new mode a "gimmick" before you even play it. It actually looks quite impressive to a lot of us.

We all want a complete game when we get it, but I would hardly call a lack of a specific playlist "incomplete." They clearly have focused a lot on arena and skillful gameplay.

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking, I clearly state that arena isn't indicative of the entire playerbase, and none is saying that it was. And while I do think btb is a casual mode (that should be in the game at launch), this Warzone takes the cakeand dev time apparently.

Its going to be heavily monetized, so no one is surprised they are putting so many eggs in one basket so to speak. And no one is saying its not impressive. And the Req system is a gimmick, ai in pvp is a gimmick, whether that's good or bad is purely subjective.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

Source

Aka Battlepacks from Battlefield or basicly the EA model.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Woah

We've come full circle. I totally forgot that they were like that in CE. Thanks for pointing that out.

I guess its just the design that kills it for me then. I just don't like the 343 Grunts. They look like they're straight out of GoW. Really hope the originals return in some capacity.

Glad they're at least making them funny again instead of trying to force the scurry.


lol I know. I love silly grunts. But the redesign of the Grunts themselves was most likely an attempt to make them look horrific or something.


I've missed you guy


Purple is a lovely color. However these Grunts look like they were dipped in grape juice. The CE grunts had a nice design along with contrasting colors tjay complimentes each other so they didn't look like a grape.

That's only one type of Grunt, though.

I can see why people don't like the 343 grunts but honestly Bungie ruined them with H3 and Reach for me anyhow. The H5 grunts look a lot more like the crustacean design people gave them flack for seemingly abandoning in H4—they've got a lot more design touches that seem indicative of an exoskeleton or chitinous styling.

I think the covenant gets more and more strictly purplified with each passing game, probably on purpose to give off a more uniform aesthetic for Jul.

I dunno they toned down the purples in Reach and went more indigo in 4, and the Ghosts in Warzone seem much closer to fuschia.

 

[jem0208]

So Walmart's pre-order bonus is interesting...

PRE-ORDER NOW & RECEIVE The Fight Chance Pack! Includes: Medical Kit, Double Barrel Shotgun, Incendiary Agony Bolt, Poison Agony Bolt, and Green Gel.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Halo-5-Guardians-Xbox-One/42434107

Double barrel shotty coming to Halo.

Curious as to what the Agony bolt is...

Ignore the above.

issue there is Warzone might be performance sensitive already, so Forge would be near useless on the map anyway.

That's a fair point actually.

 

[wesleyshark]

Does no Warzone customs mean regular BTB and customs in general are 16 player lobbies again?





Also, I for one am quite please that dumb kids get to buy dumb kid weapon packs for the dumb kid mode to subsidize my arena DLC maps.

Why do you need to demonize game modes and actual people over something that you personally don't like?

 

[Akai__]

So Walmart's pre-order bonus is interesting...

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Halo-5-Guardians-Xbox-One/42434107

Double barrel shotty coming to Halo.

Curious as to what the Agony bolt is...

It's an error, that's what it is. This is actually The Evil Within pre-order stuff.

 

[belushy]

Double barrel shotgun sounds sweet. I'm interested in the cosmetic skins.

Edit: booooooo

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

I'm sure we'll get clarification about number of maps dedicated to different modes in the coming months, but I'm a little worried with how many modes there are that 4v4 won't have enough.

If BTB specific maps are coming after launch that would mean the initial 20 are split between 4v4 arena, breakout and Warzone. Since Warzone maps are huge, my guess is there won't be more than 3 or 4, at least I hope that's the case. I hope that breakout's number is similar. If both of those modes had say 4 a piece, that would leave arena with 12, and that means 6 pairs of variant maps correct? That I could swallow, but for some reason it sounds pretty optimistic as I write it.

 

[King Leo]

I was hoping I wouldn't have to read about anything coming "shortly after launch" after the disaster of MCC. All features should be available on launch day. No excuses. "Shortly after launch" will become "2 months after launch" and then "6 month after launch". Ugh.

 

[gAg CruSh3r]

Do we know if that's max count for Halo 5? 12v12? Or will there be Team Slayer with more players?

 

[ElzarTheBam]

So Walmart's pre-order bonus is interesting...

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Halo-5-Guardians-Xbox-One/42434107

Double barrel shotty coming to Halo.

Curious as to what the Agony bolt is...


That's a fair point actually.

It's an error, that's what it is. This is actually The Evil Within pre-order stuff.

This made me laugh

Jem, you fucking idiot.


<3

 

[jem0208]

It's an error, that's what it is. This is actually The Evil Within pre-order stuff.

This made me laugh

Jem, you fucking idiot.


<3

Oh, well now I'm sad. I wanted a double barrel shotty. Also with all the pre-order stuff coming out I wouldn't have been surprised if that was the H5 preorder bonus.

Spoiler

Not my fault Walmart's website sucks, I got this off of Beyond anyway so it's their fault :3

 

[20ozSlayer]

That's only one type of Grunt, though.

I can see why people don't like the 343 grunts but honestly Bungie ruined them with H3 and Reach for me anyhow. The H5 grunts look a lot more like the crustacean design people gave them flack for seemingly abandoning in H4—they've got a lot more design touches that seem indicative of an exoskeleton or chitinous styling.



I dunno they toned down the purples in Reach and went more indigo in 4, and the Ghosts in Warzone seem much closer to fuschia.

I for one am stoked that they speak English and are funny again, but that face and stupid nose mask just look terrible. Bungie's grunts just had an adorable look to them, where 343's look like hideous monsters. I don't like it. But they're funny again so I'll take what I can get I guess. One step at a time.

 

[Impala26]

My wife wins at destiny

She got a gjallerhorn

And I got a no land beyond.... Smh

I went to bed early only to miss out on THIS?

*cry-laughs*

 

[Fata1moose]

I wake up to see there's no BTB at launch? That really blows, hopefully it won't be a long stretch of time post-launch. If they give me a Sidewinder remake in Halo 5 everything will be peachy though.

 

[Madness]

Has to be artificial delay. We're 4 months from launch, how can BTB maps optimization and integration be definitively said to only happen soon after launch? I mean the Arena team, when they were designing 4v4 maps, had to have thought about BTB maps. Sure Warzone gets a big push, but come on. BTB is as popular, if not more than Team Slayer.

I'm fine with adding Warzone. I'm less understandable about why no other single-player versus enemy AI mode exists anymore. Besides campaign, there is literally nothing for a single player who doesn't want to play with other people to do. So yeah Firefight/Spartan Ops cut, okay. But now, no BTB at launch is just man...

 

[AlStrong]

That's only one type of Grunt, though.

I can see why people don't like the 343 grunts but honestly Bungie ruined them with H3 and Reach for me anyhow.

Aside from the more iconic snout breather, I thought it was a tad weird that they're potentially breathing through their mouths in an atmosphere that is not suited towards them, so they're essentially forced to breathe through their nose. Almost like going snorkeling with the snorkel attached to your nose with your mouth exposed to the ocean.

Or something.

Spoiler

I'm making shit up

It just looked too different like a number of other things. *shrug*

datsracist etc etc. I wouldn't have minded it as much if it were a mix of the two designs like what Bungie did explicitly with the Skirmishers and Jackals.

The H5 grunts look a lot more like the crustacean design people gave them flack for seemingly abandoning in H4&#8212;they've got a lot more design touches that seem indicative of an exoskeleton or chitinous styling.

That is definitely a welcome return.

issue there is Warzone might be performance sensitive already, so Forge would be near useless on the map anyway.

Think we'd get a pure PvE mode? Would be nifty if there were just 12 spartans against even more AI (so as to fill the hole of the other 12 spartans, plus make it more challenging?).

Also with one team, we could have players showing up in their customized spartan colours instead of just being all red or all blue. I mean, I welcome the co-operative stuff, but at least in Firefight or SpOps you still had the colours you picked.

 

[Tawpgun]

Why do you need to demonize game modes and actual people over something that you personally don't like?

lol I haven't tried it yet. I'm not saying its unfun or something.


But using real life money to pay for virtual advantages in one game mode that just looking at it seems like it could be a real random (hi K frank) clusterfuck.... That goes in the dumb kid tier.

But I'm grateful for them. Same way I'd be grateful if Bungie let dumb kids buy shaders ships and capes in Destny so I get free expansions.

 

[link1201]

I am eagerly awaiting Halo 5. The footage we have seen the past few days is making that wait seem longer but I just don't get how BTB is not there at launch. It is definitely a head scratcher to me. I just don't get how that decision gets made. I will be very curious to see how many playlists are there at launch. I hope Warzone isn't too messy and it will fill the void for however long BTB is absent.

I hope with all these req cards we get some slick vehicle customization. I hope it&#8217;s not just limited to gear and armor.

Spoiler

I have a lot of hopes lol

 

[ViewtifulJC]

Look on the bright side, if BTB isn't at launch(for some mysterious 343-esque reason #HUNTtheTRUTH), than that 20 Maps at Launch thing isn't including BTB. 3(4 at the most) Warzone maps, 3 or 4 Breakout, and about a dozen Arena 4v4 for Slayer and Objective.

...of course that means those 15 other maps coming before June are going to include BTB, which is kinda funny in retrospect how we're celebrating free maps. Good news everyone, 343 decided NOT to charge you for BTB, which has been a staple mode of the franchise since 2001!

 

[op_ivy]

we are working on a more classic BTB experience with timed weapon and vehicle spawns, and this will be introduced shortly after launch with a number of maps specifically optimized for BTB.

=(

 

[ultimota]

Look on the bright side, if BTB isn't at launch(for some mysterious 343-esque reason #HUNTtheTRUTH), than that 20 Maps at Launch thing isn't including BTB. 3(4 at the most) Warzone maps, 3 or 4 Breakout, and about a dozen Arena 4v4 for Slayer and Objective.

...of course that means those 15 other maps coming before June are going to include BTB, which is kinda funny in retrospect how we're celebrating free maps. Good news everyone, 343 decided NOT to charge you for BTB, which has been a staple mode of the franchise since 2001!

i'm pretty sure he meant that the playlist wouldn't be in at launch not the whole gametype itself, unless i completely misread what he said

 

[VinFTW]

i'm pretty sure he meant that the playlist wouldn't be in at launch not the whole gametype itself, unless i completely misread what he said

That's what I thought

 

[Fata1moose]

i'm pretty sure he meant that the playlist wouldn't be in at launch not the whole gametype itself, unless i completely misread what he said

I think it could be interpreted either way, some clarification on this would be nice.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Shit guys and gals arena is there at launch and with population management these days at least both small arena and the new Warzone will have a real chance to retain players at launch.

Launch is important just as variety is but business decisions have to be made. I think this is a decent move. It's a similar reason why I think CGB is also too splintered population wise as well.

 

[stangend77]

Part of me wonders if the hold off on BTB is to funnel players looking for that experience into Warzone to start.

One of the problems with games with tons of modes is that people tend to avoid the new stuff. I don't love the idea, but this might be a tactic to get Warzone off on a strong footing for player base.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Frank on Giantbomb stream with a drink in each mitt. Love it.


"Guns are stupid"

 

[Blueblur1]

We've talked about this here at E3 so I expect it will come out in the press coverage over the next couple of days. For Warzone we have two different variants planned:

1. The core mode, which is focused on the combination of 12v12 player-versus-player action, base capture and AI-controlled combatants (including bosses). This is what we are demoing and is playable here on the E3 show floor.

2. A Base Assault attack/defend scenario in which one team is attempting to defend each base on a map and the other is pressing to capture the base and push them back in timed phases. The defenders are attempting to hold the base until time runs out. As the attackers manage to capture each base, they force the defenders back and extend time until they are assaulting the Home Base of the defending team and trying to destroy their core. This variant focuses solely on PvP without AI adversaries.

The mode plays differently depending on the variant. In addition, we are working on a more classic BTB experience with timed weapon and vehicle spawns, and this will be introduced shortly after launch with a number of maps specifically optimized for BTB.

That's unfortunate. I really hope 'shortly after launch' is within a month and not several months down the line.

 

[FyreWulff]

If you have an absurd amount of people connected online with your console and you have a decision between putting a mode on the disc that's online anyway which takes manpower off another mode that needs to be there day 1, might as well shift it back and patch it in after launch.

I wouldn't think there's motive or anything like that. It's just managing your time and manpower and priorities.

 

[nillapuddin]

My play group is 6 people

So... Warzone or bust?

I'll take the Squad playlist announcement now then, a playlist with a mix of slayer and obj for 12 players.

Realistically, what are we thinking for total playlists?

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Apparently your reading comprehension is lacking, I clearly state that arena isn't indicative of the entire playerbase, and none is saying that it was. And while I do think btb is a casual mode (that should be in the game at launch), this Warzone takes the cakeand dev time apparently.

Its going to be heavily monetized, so no one is surprised they are putting so many eggs in one basket so to speak. And no one is saying its not impressive. And the Req system is a gimmick, ai in pvp is a gimmick, whether that's good or bad is purely subjective.

Sorry Rag. I understand. No hard feelings.

 

[Tawpgun]

When does Sprint go live?

 

[philipnash19]

This is the best week ever, so many great game announcements, Halo 5 campaign footage and passed all my college exams!

 

[Madness]

If you have an absurd amount of people connected online with your console and you have a decision between putting a mode on the disc that's online anyway which takes manpower off another mode that needs to be there day 1, might as well shift it back and patch it in after launch.

I wouldn't think there's motive or anything like that. It's just managing your time and manpower and priorities.

But will this mean that whatever maps are for BTB are on disc, or will need to be downloaded later as part of whatever they'll add post launch? If Warzone won't allow for Forge or custom games, and since they're 4 times larger than any other map, could they just use soft kill zones, hard kill zones and barriers to create smaller BTB-esque areas off the Warzone maps? Not unlike how Hemorrhage was part of Forge World, but players couldn't go beyond the play area of Hemorrhage.

 

[MrGreencastle]

Part of me wonders if the hold off on BTB is to funnel players looking for that experience into Warzone to start.

One of the problems with games with tons of modes is that people tend to avoid the new stuff. I don't love the idea, but this might be a tactic to get Warzone off on a strong footing for player base.

If I can't play CTF in Warzone I'ma be pissed.

BTB CTF needs to be there at launch. Wtf.

 

[VincentMatts]

Did they say how many warzone maps there are?

 

[FyreWulff]

But will this mean that whatever maps are for BTB are on disc, or will need to be downloaded later as part of whatever they'll add post launch? If Warzone won't allow for Forge or custom games, and since they're 4 times larger than any other map, could they just use soft kill zones, hard kill zones and barriers to create smaller BTB-esque areas off the Warzone maps? Not unlike how Hemorrhage was part of Forge World, but players couldn't go beyond the play area of Hemorrhage.

The way salient's post read, they're simply going to add BTB-optimized maps post launch for the playlist's launch.

Would assume you can just start an 8v8 custom on the shipping maps until then

 

[jem0208]

I wonder if the reason we're not getting BTB at launch is because they won't have enough maps suitable for it. Maybe the first batch of free maps will be BTB ones.

That said like Madness said they could probably just slim down the Warzone maps slightly. However I think there might be a couple of issues with that:

1. They might not be able to make good maps by just slimmimg Warzone maps down.

2. If there's only a few Warzone maps, that would mean there would only be a few BTB maps.

Basically if they just used the Warzone maps, the quality of the BTB playlist could be rubbish. If what I've said is the case then I'm somewhat okay with BTB coming later, provided it doesn't take ages.

 

[Tawpgun]

With maps being free, I'm wondering a couple things.

1. Will they finish a map and just ship it into the game? Or will they wait to bundle it with 2 more and make it a bigger release kinda thing.

2. The Windows 10 x Xbox functionality needs to be utilized. Release an actual map editor on Windows 10. Allow the maps to be ported to Halo.