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Halo |OT12| Last One Out, Get the Lights

S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
YourExWife said:
HAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHASHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHADFHDS:LFKJH:SDG KJ: LFKDSJ:LHKDFG!

Sorry, that one was too good.

Dude. They fucked over fans of infection gametypes too! They used the exact same shit as standard infection, added a player skin and some armor abilities. At the same time, they removed the ability for casual infection players to make their own gametypes (odd as that sounds to my ears). They screwed over both sides of the aisle. Let's hope they don't do the same with competitive settings. And stop saying MLG like one community owns the exact settings or something.
Click to expand...

Honestly, that's one thing they really disappointed me in. The custom game options are garbage now. They completely removed the dept of it, which was the beauty of Halo custom games and user creations. Now you cant really do anything original anymore and to top it all off, when i go in the file share for most recommended or downloaded, its completely empty. Good stuff 343.
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
Awesome Barlow said:
I do not understand why some of y'all are making excuses for blatantly bad design choices and a lack of effort on 343's part. Why not point fingers and demand more? Why settle for less?


If you all want to continue to accept mediocrity go ahead and embrace Halo 4; as for me, I will continue to critique it because I know they can do better.
Click to expand...

Huh? I believe they tried. I just don't like many aspects of what they made.

Except for fileshares not working. That is inexcusable.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Awesome Barlow said:
Don't forget the fact that people wanted a complete working game on launch!
Click to expand...

I'm not defending their decisions, I too would prefer flag as not auto-pickup and no waypoint. I expressed those concerns prior to the game launch. However compared to Reach the objective population is more healthy, although I think if old CTF was a playlist all on its own it would in fact outshine the 343i CTF just based on not having to get other objective gametypes.

I certainly understand the frustration without having the competitive customisation right there on launch. I also understand what not having VIP or flood custom weapons does for the Forge community.

Sure call 343i out on those but overall Halo 4 is a good experience for me and I feel like the developer will support more and more as time goes on. We can already see playlist changes weekly with a bulletin wrap up. If they can bring in the customisation and competitive playlists it will bring things up a few notches too.

It is poor form the file share/search doesn't work out of the box. It is poor form to not have campaign theatre etc. However for me at the end of the day I suppose I'm an optimist and enough of a casual player that I'm able to have fun.

Also I could care less about excuses, I really don't track my K/D etc and players that look solely at statistics are missing more than half the picture e.g. latency, randoms vs. teams, objective runners vs slayers etc etc.

Finally developer communication would go a LONG WAY to pleasing fans in a weekly article of dot points grouped like this:
1. Things we're definitely working on
1a) changes that are set in stone
1b) changes open to fluctuation

2. Things we're considering changes
2a) give us feedback on official forum polls or in game polls
2b) a list of changes we think are worthy

3. Things we acknowledge but aren't changing
3a) not yet but in the future
3b) never going to happen or designed with intent
 
S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
NPF7 said:
So since we are getting a Bulletin tonight, what playlist do you guys think will be added next Monday?
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Why are they even removing playlists....just fuckin put them all in there. Whats the point of this other than to annoy people and have them go play something else instead. Just fucking stupid imo.
 
M

MrDaravon

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
Why are they even removing playlists....just fuckin put them all in there. Whats the point of this other than to annoy people and have them go play something else instead. Just fucking stupid imo.
Click to expand...

It's already getting spread thin as-is, right now most playlists only have 2-5k except Infinity Slayer, BTB, and SWAT.
 
T

The P of Poland

Member
Awesome Barlow said:
Hope they retcon it along with spops and Reach.
Click to expand...

Would be lovely.

But no.
These monstrosities are their almighty "vision". It's going to stay the way it is, complete with Grunts superjumping by means of flatulence (seriously, what else is the puffs of gas coming from their rear every time they jump? Since when can Grunts jump at all?)
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
Why are they even removing playlists....just fuckin put them all in there. Whats the point of this other than to annoy people and have them go play something else instead. Just fucking stupid imo.
Click to expand...
Less hoppers gives you more players in each resulting in better quality matches (trueskill, connection, and DLC matching once that hits).

Not to mention a more simple and uniform MM experience is simply more appealing (in my opinion) that a shit storm of 100 playlists and different settings in half of them.
CyReN said:
Played Extraction earlier, SO MUCH FUN. Why is this stuff not in matchmaking?
Click to expand...
Haven't played it yet, but the gameplays I've seen of it look awesome.
 
Y

YourExWife

Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z said:
However for me at the end of the day I suppose I'm an optimist and enough of a casual player that I'm able to have fun.
Click to expand...

I'm an optimist too. I was excited as shit for this game. I always try to have fun when I play, I even enjoyed Reach multiplayer most of the time (whatever ire that may bring me). But this is no reason to accept all this trash we've been handed. One can be an optimist, yet be pissed with the outcome.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
Why are they even removing playlists....just fuckin put them all in there. Whats the point of this other than to annoy people and have them go play something else instead. Just fucking stupid imo.
Click to expand...

Population sizes per playlist so:

1. settings remain fairly consistent
2. skill matching
3. latency matching
4. Speed to find and get into a game

All of these factors combine to give 343i a big tick of approval with their reduced playlist approach. Now they just need to get their skill & latency matching working like a well oiled machine. I think in the last week things have been better here.

However I'd like JIP to either be removed or replaced with a game browser systems. If you're going to allow JIP then just give control to the player and show them the skill/latency of each player while doing the search. It would result in quick game joining, friends and local players joining those games more often and reduce developer overhead for trying to build an automated JIP system.

The fact you can have a full party of 8 and then have JIP change host 3-4 times in one game is a joke. I've had games where the other team quit out or joined in against our 8 players 4 times with host migration. If we are a full party and matched with a lesser random party the host should stay with the party. It results in less black screens and less frustration while increasing party satisfaction.
 
S

Silly.Mikey

Banned
Steelyuhas said:
Less hoppers gives you more players in each resulting in better quality matches (trueskill, connection, and DLC matching once that hits).
Click to expand...

If MM worked properly, you'd have quality matches regardless. I was in one of the best populated playlist (big team with close to 50k people) and the host changed about 7-8 times during the match and it still lagged like crazy till the end. More people doesn't mean shit if your system doesn't work.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Pretty disappointing 343 disappeared from this thread post-launch. But I can see why.

I don't blame them, people are harsh with how they phrase their critiques, including myself, and most devs can't emotionally take that kind of slander over and over, which is clear when you see some devs vent and explode on twitter and whatnot. Plus they're not obligated to post here, and probably have a LOT on their plate ATM. This thread has been ruthless and been pretty repetitive for a while now since the metagame hasn't changed much since launch.

At this point, I still like the game a lot despite all it flaws, and I still think it's an incremental and welcomed addition into the franchise. There's a ton of potential in fixing stuff that isn't too fundamental in design. I just hope people's criticisms are heard and acted upon. There are a lot of things that are objectively wrong with this game (multiplayer specifically) that need to be addressed so I hope we're not hit with some BS reasoning why they won't change what they can change in an upcoming bulletin.
 
H

Hydranockz

Member
Silly.Mikey said:
If MM worked properly, you'd have quality matches regardless. I was in one of the best populated playlist (big team with close to 50k people) and the host changed about 7-8 times during the match and it still lagged like crazy till the end. More people doesn't mean shit if your system doesn't work.
Click to expand...

The system works fine. 7-8 host switches in a match screams of an outlier.
 
ElRenoRaven

ElRenoRaven

Member
So yea finally got around to episode 4. Spartan Ops can go to hell. Total and complete bullshit this episode was. This episode has completely turned my opinion around 180 degrees.
 
X

xxjuicesxx

Member
Steelyuhas said:
To be fair (and I was arguing against Silly.Mikey's post), BTB to pretty consistently a bed of shit connections of host migrations aplenty.
Click to expand...

You just have to give MM time to find the good hosts.

You just have to give Trueskill time to find proper games.

You just have to give JiP time to get even team matchups.
 
J

JB1981

Member
Maybe I'm host or some shit but I don't think so since I had to stare at a lot of black screens tonight when the host quit, but I have been pretty pleased with the net code. Don't think there is any odd amount of latency that was not there in Reach. This is one of the best p2p games I've played online netcode wise
 
K

kylej

Banned
You just have to give 343 time to build a studio.

You just have to give them credit for working with such limited resources.

You just have to wait for Halo 5 for a good game.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z said:
I would disagree, here's some examples...

1. Golf: Casual play is with handicaps and differing tee off points as well as rule sets where competitive play is a focused no handicap specific tee off that still differs between genders.

2. Formula 1: Highly competitive that even has mechanics of financial limits, technical design limitations that are all designed to balance a car/team so the driver is the most important competitive factor. Can this be played casually? Directly the answer is no it cannot, however, a watered down go kart version can be played by casuals. Again very differing rule sets and vehicles between casual vs. competitive.

3. Soccer: Everything set in stone for competitive play but casuals often play soccer without the exacting field, team or structured requirements. The direct competitive version can be played casually but this is usually in club organised teams/venues where the more popular global casual version of backyard soccer cannot be played competitively.

As you can see with a few simple examples competitive and casual are rarely exactly the same and even when they are the casuals tend to bend the rules or assets for more flexible play.

How does this translate to Halo? Competitive play tries to iron out the random, promote teamwork and practised regular teams with generally smaller and asymmetrical maps. Does that atypical competitive play mean casuals can play it? Yes it does.

However does the real world data from casual play show that casuals want to play the competitive Halo settings? The answer is a resounding NO. Casuals while they may play competitive settings they often don't have a regular practised team, nor do they want to play against those regular competitive in their settings.

Some casuals just want to drive warthogs, some want to try and get flag beat downs on the back of mongoose, some want to play flood etc etc.

So while your statement is true in theory it is far from the reality of casual vs. competitive play. To return to the example casual have far more fun with their average go kart vehicles and basic track than going to full CAMS3 licensed $10K go karts on a custom league track and tournament event.

You get the idea.

Edit-
I also get very tired of how competitive everyone wants Halo but in reality online play for matchmaking and rank has less to do with settings and mechanics where latency and host are factored in. I still find it sad that competitive is touted so much but you guys'n'girls here at neoGAF hardly ever talk about Good Connection Filter. To me a far more important issue over the actual competitive settings.

Sure I agree a playlist for default Halo and a playlist for MLG should have your competitive settings. Sure I agree the custom games should have allowed more customisation for such game mechanics too. However I draw the line that the whole game should be competitive based just because casuals "CAN" play the competitive settings. Each should have their own settings and playlists, your statement does not factor the casual modes without competitive at all and that I have issue with.
Click to expand...

I can't find a gif to explain my emotions. This post was painful to read.

Your examples pretty much proved the original point.
Golf - People still play legit golf casually. But disregarding that, those handicaps/tee off positions are able to be ADDED easily into the game.

F1 - Ok we're talking about games here. Not something you need to have a small fortune to partake in.

Soccer - Intramurals is casual play. They play with the vast majority of pro rules. But the ability to play casual soccer is BUILT IN to the simple rules of soccer.

The problem with Halo 4, and Reach before the TU, is competitive settings are IMPOSSIBLE to make due to built in mechanics and custom setting options that either don't exist, or are bugged and don't work.

To use your sports analogies, this would be like FIFA released its new rules for Soccer and offsides no longer existed. But for WHATEVER HYPOTHETICAL REASON it was impossible to add off-sides back into the game.

I've always held the idea that Halo should be designed with the competetive in mind. Once you have that framework, you can add on all the rest of the stuff that casuals want in. But the core game is competitive. I THOUGHT thats what Halo 4 was gonna be like until we found out the custom settings were completley starved.

Not even gonna get started on the bolded. good lord.
 
D

Duji

Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z said:
No worries mate.

I have to admit I don't play League of Legends but I'm not saying it's a bad idea to build competitive first then casual from there. However in terms of Halo the end result is still much the same e.g. casuals like vehicles and competitive play will never have them in play so League of Legends isn't an apples to apples comparison.
Click to expand...
Your original argument was that casuals are often not interested in competitive settings. You used the fact that many real life sports and activities aren't played in their competitively pure iterations. I explained that these examples are largely inapplicable due to limitations in real life which do not exist in video games, like how your average Joe obviously can't participate in F1 racing due to the skill that is necessary to not crash & burn -- not to mention the $$ required to even participate, and also how most people don't have access to FIFA-approved socccer fields to play soccer at a 100% competitive level. On a video game basis, your argument is made null by the existence of League of Legends, which also happens to be the absolute best example anyone could possible provide because it happens to be the most popular multiplayer game right now (and of all time too probably). And now you are saying that "League of Legends isn't an apples to apples comparison"?! So your real life examples apply more so than my video game one when it comes to Halo? Come on, man. There's no winning with you.
 
C

Caja 117

Member
enzo_gt said:
Pretty disappointing 343 disappeared from this thread post-launch. But I can see why.

I don't blame them, people are harsh with how they phrase their critiques, including myself, and most devs can't emotionally take that kind of slander over and over, which is clear when you see some devs vent and explode on twitter and whatnot. Plus they're not obligated to post here, and probably have a LOT on their plate ATM. This thread has been ruthless and been pretty repetitive for a while now since the metagame hasn't changed much since launch..
Click to expand...

BS, 343 employees knew exactly what they had in their hands and also knew how passionate the fans on the franchise are, to not be prepared for the storm and the social media backlash after they took away dozens of options away for the sake of trying to cater a new demografic is just that, BS.

No one asked for jip, no one asked for no flag drop option, amongst other changes that now have proven to not help to keep a healthy population.

Dont get me wrong, the game is good, is better than Reach and better than BOPs 2 (imo), but they droped the ball when they completely removed clasic options.
 
X

xxjuicesxx

Member
Kibbles said:
Spartan Ops is incredibly disappointing, it's just reused spaces week after week and MP maps.
Click to expand...

Its funny cause I knew this was what it was going to be.

You just cant make that much playspace these days, graphics are too intense to create new areas all the time. It would take a league of environmental artists, programmers, and an extremely dedicated creative bunch, along with some killer management to continually release new episodic content on a scale to make Spec..Spartan Ops blow people away.
 
Y

YourExWife

Member
xxjuicesxx said:
Its funny cause I knew this was what it was going to be.

You just cant make that much playspace these days, graphics are too intense to create new areas all the time. It would take a league of environmental artists, programmers, and an extremely dedicated creative bunch, along with some killer management to continually release new episodic content on a scale to make Spec..Spartan Ops blow people away.
Click to expand...

That's not even the part that bothers me. The encounters just basically suck.
 
R

Redford

aka Cabbie
"Since everyone's probably on their way to unlocking their first specialization this week, we're going to do a thorough recap on how they work tonite."
 
D

Duji

Member
After playing Spartan Ops for the first time @ Pax, I told myself, "If they don't get new environments and more interesting/diverse gameplay, then this is going to tank hard." Even with that in mind, for some reason I forgot about the infinite lives and all.
 
Ozzy Onya A2Z

Ozzy Onya A2Z

Member
Duji said:
snip
Click to expand...

Tawpgun said:
snip
Click to expand...

To both of you my original post was to highlight that despite being a sport or a video game that casual and competitive rarely meet eye to eye and require rules, traits and/or venue adjustments etc.

If you take MLG for example most players won't pony up the cost of flights/accommodation and all that to the official LAN events where there is an even playing field, a no random/handicap approach to settings and the best competition in terms of teams and players going. All in an official league. Instead players sit back and bitch about online play, which to me is still wildly different between casual or competitive or MLG or niche playlists like Grifball for example. It's not a build one and cater to the other. To me it's a build a base and cater for 4-6 major sub-communities.

The sports examples are to highlight this and much of what you take from the sports or video game examples are purely your perspective of things. Hence the bias, guess I'm trying to be the fence sitter advocating support for all. We all agree customisations and maps should have been present on day one for the competitive community. Personally I think we'll see one map in the December map pack built for competitive play and the introduction of the MLG playlist as a persistent playlist.

Hopefully that combined with a TU in December will provide enough for both sides of the majors and upgrade customisation for Forgers or niche playlists too. *I'm guessing a DEC TU personally. Perhaps just an update and not a full TU but you get the idea.

Everyone agrees developer transparency is good thing, we need more of that.
 
R

rakka

Member
YourExWife said:
You realize that all these laggy games are laggy for us too right? So tired of this excuse.
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i know your replying to the other guy but anyway. take swat for example. even if it's laggy for both players, that's the problem. i get a headshot, but i only see feedback of that after a whole damn second sometimes, during that window the other player manages to kill me too. now we both die regardless of whether I shot first or he did. it sucks for both of us, and for the sake of what? trueskill? I'm all for being matched up with players the game considers my skill level but when it takes priority over a good connection to the point where its unplayable it is ridiculous. theres 3000+ players in swat and i have to be matched up with players on the other side of the world instead of locals? Now admittedly there have been much closer matches but on the other hand a lot more laggy ones too, or at least if you live in Australia like i do. would it have killed 343 to make a good connection filter? its not too big an issue for example in playlists with shields and radar etc, but in swat it makes a world of a difference, and it's very noticeable vs reach matches (again, probably more so if you live outside of the US)
 
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