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Halo |OT12| Last One Out, Get the Lights

Omni

Member
I hope the maps in the upcoming map pack are just a bit better looking. I'm sure the designers or whatever worked hard on the vanilla maps, but compared to the campaign or even Reach's maps they look really poor visually.

I know campaign can afford a little extra resources to make the environments look great, but just look at Tempest from Reach and then look at Exile. I don't get why such a downgrade
 

Duji

Member
I think Guilty Gear can go in your competitive circle because I don't think any casual will touch it.

You know what, sure. I would say that it's pretty much an outlier though and my main point of competitive games offering enjoyment for a wider audience remains.

Also @Der, let's view the diagrams as "enjoyment among audiences". For example, SC2 is largely enjoyed by both casuals and competitive players.
 

TheOddOne

Member
I hope the maps in the upcoming map pack are just a bit better looking. I'm sure the designers or whatever worked hard on the vanilla maps, but compared to the campaign or even Reach's maps they look really poor visually.

I know campaign can afford a little extra resources to make the environments look great, but just look at Tempest from Reach and then look at Exile. I don't get why such a downgrade
I rather they put performance before "looks".
 

Caja 117

Member
Untrue with JIP. Not dropping the flag seems more like it came out of a desire to simplify the play of CTF while providing the flag carrier some more offensive capabilities in their role. Not saying it was right or wrong as I haven't had any experience with Halo 4 CTF. But I do appreciate JIP, as it has helped my games far, far more than it has hurt. In fact I haven't been hurt by it yet.
What i ment to say that these options were implemented when noone asked for them, while other options were dropped when nobody wanted them gone, and at the end these radical changes didnt help to stop people from migrating to other games.

Flag is cool like it is, but why take out the option for classics ctf? JIP has it positives, but why start games with less people in one of the team? Or why have it in every playlist? And what about the problem with the host changes?

This game has a lot of good things going on, but it is missing some basic stuff that should have been there since start.

Im really hating these boltshots+cammo users in CTF games camping in flag, i played a team that 3 of them were doing that in the flag on solace, is really annoying to play a game like that
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I was going to do a longer post on this another time, but I'm starting to conclude I'll never get around to it, thanks to my ongoing work load. So here goes - a very messy version of my over-arching problem with Halo 4's multiplayer combat.

There's just not a good flow to the game any longer. What began in Halo 3 with bubble shields interrupting combat on occasion and grav lifts allowing specific high walls to be vaulted has expanded to encompass every encounter and every surface of a map. Long open spaces are cut off in volleys of DMR and light rifle fire. Walls and spans are cleared with jet packs. Choke points that would once have held critical ordnance to be battled over, turning the tide of games, are left barren as ordnance rains down who knows where. Not only do these things demolish the way maps used to flow, but they've wreaked the way combat now plays out.

(On that note: respawn times should be tied to shield recharge times. This is one of those fundamental things about Halo, combat is built on a rhythm: encounter, survival, recharge, advance. This is why instant respawn is diametrically opposed to Halo's combat design, and it's baffling to me that this was not realized.)

Frankie and others have likened Halo often to a sport in the past. And the game often played out that way in prior games. But this is like a sport where everyone brings their own ball, uniform and score keeping onto the field, and the referees have been bound and gagged.

The sandbox often feels less like a specific set of toys were handed out to create a specific flavor of combat and chaos, and more like a big toy bin was dumped into the map, and everyone is throwing stuff at each other. There needs to be a steadier hand a the wheel than this. (On one of the last games I played, a week and a half ago, I saw a Ghost on Meltdown get tagged by four plasma pistol EMPs at the same time, and then have ~6 plasma grenades rain on it. I mean, seriously.)

Get dropped into the the losing side of an objective game in the middle? Pile up a few +10's and DMR someone from across the map a time or two. (Press X to respawn.) Admire the XP, unlock the skin, hop into another game hope you are near a Binary Rifle when it lands.

The rhythms and flow of the maps, the rhythms of combat, the ebbs and flows of a game from beginning to end, the cyclical struggles for critical ordnance...there's no flow any longer. Games don't feel like they have a beginning, a middle and an end - they just stop.

It all adds up to an experience that feels like it was meant to be disposable, and forgettable, on a moment to moment basis. Lose an encounter because you had Mobility but he had Stability? Look at all the +10's you got anyways. You might unlock something! Hit X to respawn.

It's like Halo 4 multiplayer has become all Arcadefight, all the time. When what I fell in love with was Limited. (Incidentally, this is exactly what happened to Firefight along the way, including the transition to Spartan Ops. It's now consequence-free combat.)

I want the intent behind a map design shine again, not thwarted with jetpacks. Designing a map to flow one way and giving people the option to bypass it isn't freedom, it's self-defeating. 343 should have learned this with Reach.

I want there to be a pacing to a game from end to end again, as teams can plan and rally and coordinate as they fight for critical point on map control, for a critical piece of ordnance - and turn the tide with it. Those were moments of victory, moments where games could turn around. And they're forfeited for random ordnance handed out at random. So many mini-objectives - secure this choke point, obtain that ordnance, stop that vehicle - just fall by the wayside. It's all about flocking to the HUD waypoints.

I want vehicles to not be deathtraps again. Their purpose must be more defined than a short term EMP magnet; they used to feel like chess pieces to move around the board, not monster trucks we hope to get a kill or two with before it blows up.

I wish balance were defined as a cohesive set of tools that we can choose from. Not from choosing which aspect of combat we'll break, and call it balanced by the fact that other players might have broken a different part of it.

I want the game to have some kind of flow again. Because encounters and entire games feel like they were meant to be disposable, not memorable. The end result is I'm just not invested in any aspect of the game: the moment to moment shoot outs, the give and take of the game as it plays out, or the end result. None of it matters. (+10 ,Press X to Respawn) It's for this reason that the game just hasn't stuck with me; the game has a huge investment system of stuff to unlock, but I'm no longer invested in the actual game.

These things can be accomplished within the baseline of what Halo 4 offers. But it will require 343 to pull things in from where they are now, in all aspects of the game.

This is rambling, but it's 1:00 in the morning and my job won't let me write anything during the day lately. So there it is.
 

GrizzNKev

Banned
Yeah, I think a lot of us feel that way Ghaleon. I wrote a series of posts saying similar things, and had a good bunch of people agreeing with me. It's not really Halo anymore. It can be, with tweaked settings, but they're not there. And I doubt they ever will be.
 

Ken

Member
PV & Instant respawns are two things I will never be able to understand. Such baffling decisions to include in the game.

Wasn't PV included for the same reason the Sawed-Off was included in GOW3? It was supposed to help new players have a chance at winning and veterans would stay away from it. Turns out veterans would use both of them to stomp on new players even harder.

Instant respawns was added to up the shootbangs by 5000% and to stop people from getting bored and leaving the game because they have to sit out of the game for a whole 5 seconds.
 

Ramirez

Member
Wasn't PV included for the same reason the Sawed-Off was included in GOW3? It was supposed to help new players have a chance at winning and veterans would stay away from it.

Turns out veterans would use both of them to stomp on new players even harder.

Yea, I can't honestly believe anyone at 343 believed themselves when they said PV was only for people with poor situational awareness. It's a freaking map wide radar that shows everyone's movement & positioning! The worst thing about it is that it completely stalls the game, just like AL. No one is going to charge in on a PV user, and the PV user doesn't have to do squat until you make your move, which he can see, lol.
 

Omni

Member
Random question about the final level.
Does anyone know if the ships that we see at the end of the Star Wars run are human or Forerunner or something? They look nothing like human ships + they're white... but the defences were shooting at them...
Confusing
 

rakka

Member
while I use PV as it does give you a huge advantage, I sure as hell hope it's removed for the next halo game. it's X-ray vision for crying out loud. don't mind it for campaign but for mp it's close to gamebreaking
 
I think Guilty Gear can go in your competitive circle because I don't think any casual will touch it.
I had a bunch of friends who knew next to nothing about fighting games pick up Guilty Gear XX on a whim back on the PS2 and had a blast with it. All the deeper mechanics went completely ignored as they had a good time mashing buttons against eachother using characters based off musicians and bands. They don't care. Any competitive game can be played casually, competition is all based around who you're competing against, and with that you can delve as shallow or as deep as necessary.

Yeah, I think a lot of us feel that way Ghaleon. I wrote a series of posts saying similar things, and had a good bunch of people agreeing with me. It's not really Halo anymore. It can be, with tweaked settings, but they're not there. And I doubt they ever will be.
I think Halo is just doomed at this point to being diluted with new unwanted mechanics and gametype changes, as unfortunate as that is for some of us. Best to stop hoping for what will never be again and move on.
 
Random question about the final level.
Does anyone know if the ships that we see at the end of the Star Wars run are human or Forerunner or something? They look nothing like human ships + they're white... but the defences were shooting at them...
Confusing
I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
If only there were some way you could show me with a screenshot or rendered clip.

You know, that's probably the most enjoyable portion of the Campaign for me.
Which is crazy.
 

blamite

Member
Great post Gahleon, that's more or less exactly how I feel. Each game just feels like a series of random things happening, with no purpose or reasoning. When I die, I don't care so much because it's often due to something I couldn't have predicted. When I get a triple kill, it doesn't feel as earned as it did before, because I didn't need to do as much to earn my weapons or positioning or health advantage. It seems like the overall progression system is supposed to matter more than the events of any given match, and I don't see anything I really want to work for, so it just ends up being pointless, other than giving me some bars I kind of would like to fill just because they're there.

The sad part is I'll still play the game consistently until Halo 5, because sometimes I just want to relax and play a multiplayer shooter, and Halo is the only one I've been able to get into.
 

zap

Member
Ghaleon, once again, nails it. I find the things that I hate about Halo 4 could easily be fixed, though I doubt it. This is the same company that deleted Squad Slayer and replaced it with a clone of Team Slayer :/
 
I was going to do a longer post on this another time, but I'm starting to conclude I'll never get around to it, thanks to my ongoing work load. So here goes - a very messy version of my over-arching problem with Halo 4's multiplayer combat.

There's just not a good flow to the game any longer. What began in Halo 3 with bubble shields interrupting combat on occasion and grav lifts allowing specific high walls to be vaulted has expanded to encompass every encounter and every surface of a map. Long open spaces are cut off in volleys of DMR and light rifle fire. Walls and spans are cleared with jet packs. Choke points that would once have held critical ordnance to be battled over, turning the tide of games, are left barren as ordnance rains down who knows where. Not only do these things demolish the way maps used to flow, but they've wreaked the way combat now plays out.

(On that note: respawn times should be tied to shield recharge times. This is one of those fundamental things about Halo, combat is built on a rhythm: encounter, survival, recharge, advance. This is why instant respawn is diametrically opposed to Halo's combat design, and it's baffling to me that this was not realized.)

Frankie and others have likened Halo often to a sport in the past. And the game often played out that way in prior games. But this is like a sport where everyone brings their own ball, uniform and score keeping onto the field, and the referees have been bound and gagged.

The sandbox often feels less like a specific set of toys were handed out to create a specific flavor of combat and chaos, and more like a big toy bin was dumped into the map, and everyone is throwing stuff at each other. There needs to be a steadier hand a the wheel than this. (On one of the last games I played, a week and a half ago, I saw a Ghost on Meltdown get tagged by four plasma pistol EMPs at the same time, and then have ~6 plasma grenades rain on it. I mean, seriously.)

Get dropped into the the losing side of an objective game in the middle? Pile up a few +10's and DMR someone from across the map a time or two. (Press X to respawn.) Admire the XP, unlock the skin, hop into another game hope you are near a Binary Rifle when it lands.

The rhythms and flow of the maps, the rhythms of combat, the ebbs and flows of a game from beginning to end, the cyclical struggles for critical ordnance...there's no flow any longer. Games don't feel like they have a beginning, a middle and an end - they just stop.

It all adds up to an experience that feels like it was meant to be disposable, and forgettable, on a moment to moment basis. Lose an encounter because you had Mobility but he had Stability? Look at all the +10's you got anyways. You might unlock something! Hit X to respawn.

It's like Halo 4 multiplayer has become all Arcadefight, all the time. When what I fell in love with was Limited. (Incidentally, this is exactly what happened to Firefight along the way, including the transition to Spartan Ops. It's now consequence-free combat.)

I want the intent behind a map design shine again, not thwarted with jetpacks. Designing a map to flow one way and giving people the option to bypass it isn't freedom, it's self-defeating. 343 should have learned this with Reach.

I want there to be a pacing to a game from end to end again, as teams can plan and rally and coordinate as they fight for critical point on map control, for a critical piece of ordnance - and turn the tide with it. Those were moments of victory, moments where games could turn around. And they're forfeited for random ordnance handed out at random. So many mini-objectives - secure this choke point, obtain that ordnance, stop that vehicle - just fall by the wayside. It's all about flocking to the HUD waypoints.

I want vehicles to not be deathtraps again. Their purpose must be more defined than a short term EMP magnet; they used to feel like chess pieces to move around the board, not monster trucks we hope to get a kill or two with before it blows up.

I wish balance were defined as a cohesive set of tools that we can choose from. Not from choosing which aspect of combat we'll break, and call it balanced by the fact that other players might have broken a different part of it.

I want the game to have some kind of flow again. Because encounters and entire games feel like they were meant to be disposable, not memorable. The end result is I'm just not invested in any aspect of the game: the moment to moment shoot outs, the give and take of the game as it plays out, or the end result. None of it matters. (+10 ,Press X to Respawn) It's for this reason that the game just hasn't stuck with me; the game has a huge investment system of stuff to unlock, but I'm no longer invested in the actual game.

These things can be accomplished within the baseline of what Halo 4 offers. But it will require 343 to pull things in from where they are now, in all aspects of the game.

This is rambling, but it's 1:00 in the morning and my job won't let me write anything during the day lately. So there it is.

it's a shame really. i doubt 343 will fix the stuff we care about. Halo is dead and we can only wait for Bungie to save us with Destiny.
 

SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
I do sometimes wonder how much of the hatred is coming from true skill actually working in Halo 4. Playing good people will magnify a game's weaknesses by about a 1,000, only natural!

But trueskill doesn't work...

2.8 K/D and 88% wins which is basically the same as Reach for me. If it weren't for the disgusting hosts I would easily have over a 3.0 and 90% win.
 

Nirvana

Member
If you think it's about k/d ratio you've not been paying attention.

I'm not talking about k/d ratio per se. The fact is, people enjoy themselves more when they are winning, generally and regardless of gametype, people will personally have a better experience if they kill more and die less. To me, that is sound logic. Yes, you may take issue with other details, but with regards to multiplayer, concerns arise when players are not having fun, since fun in this case can generally be paralleled with how many times a player is killed by an opponent versus how many times they are killed by their opponent, I don't think it is unfair to estimate that most people are upset with the fact that they are not winning.

This is a generalisation. This is not the only way to have fun in the game, the point is, people will generally have more fun if they are winning and less fun if they are losing. If they do lose more often than they win, they will look for reasons outside of their own ability to justify to themselves why they died, why it is unfair that they died and why the game is broken because of it. This applies to basically any multiplayer experience and I do it myself when I am having bad games.

I'm not trying to denounce peoples' opinions as 'whining' or 'moaning' all I am saying is that there is a direct correlation between winning and happiness and losing and unhappiness; it's hardly a revolutionary idea, I just wanted to point it out.

I don't think the game is perfect and I agree with a lot of the points raised, but I don't believe the game is fundamentally broken by its problems, no more than Halo 2 or Halo 3 were by their problems, and there were some big ones with those games.

Just hoping for a bit more positivity on here.
 
I'm not trying to denounce peoples' opinions as 'whining' or 'moaning' all I am saying is that there is a direct correlation between winning and happiness and losing and unhappiness; it's hardly a revolutionary idea, I just wanted to point it out.
Sure, but we could ultimately talk about different brain receptors being tickled and tie this back into the click to win methodology at that stage.
 

Blueblur1

Member
I was going to do a longer post on this another time, but I'm starting to conclude I'll never get around to it, thanks to my ongoing work load. So here goes - a very messy version of my over-arching problem with Halo 4's multiplayer combat.

There's just not a good flow to the game any longer. What began in Halo 3 with bubble shields interrupting combat on occasion and grav lifts allowing specific high walls to be vaulted has expanded to encompass every encounter and every surface of a map. Long open spaces are cut off in volleys of DMR and light rifle fire. Walls and spans are cleared with jet packs. Choke points that would once have held critical ordnance to be battled over, turning the tide of games, are left barren as ordnance rains down who knows where. Not only do these things demolish the way maps used to flow, but they've wreaked the way combat now plays out.

(On that note: respawn times should be tied to shield recharge times. This is one of those fundamental things about Halo, combat is built on a rhythm: encounter, survival, recharge, advance. This is why instant respawn is diametrically opposed to Halo's combat design, and it's baffling to me that this was not realized.)

Frankie and others have likened Halo often to a sport in the past. And the game often played out that way in prior games. But this is like a sport where everyone brings their own ball, uniform and score keeping onto the field, and the referees have been bound and gagged.

The sandbox often feels less like a specific set of toys were handed out to create a specific flavor of combat and chaos, and more like a big toy bin was dumped into the map, and everyone is throwing stuff at each other. There needs to be a steadier hand a the wheel than this. (On one of the last games I played, a week and a half ago, I saw a Ghost on Meltdown get tagged by four plasma pistol EMPs at the same time, and then have ~6 plasma grenades rain on it. I mean, seriously.)

Get dropped into the the losing side of an objective game in the middle? Pile up a few +10's and DMR someone from across the map a time or two. (Press X to respawn.) Admire the XP, unlock the skin, hop into another game hope you are near a Binary Rifle when it lands.

The rhythms and flow of the maps, the rhythms of combat, the ebbs and flows of a game from beginning to end, the cyclical struggles for critical ordnance...there's no flow any longer. Games don't feel like they have a beginning, a middle and an end - they just stop.

It all adds up to an experience that feels like it was meant to be disposable, and forgettable, on a moment to moment basis. Lose an encounter because you had Mobility but he had Stability? Look at all the +10's you got anyways. You might unlock something! Hit X to respawn.

It's like Halo 4 multiplayer has become all Arcadefight, all the time. When what I fell in love with was Limited. (Incidentally, this is exactly what happened to Firefight along the way, including the transition to Spartan Ops. It's now consequence-free combat.)

I want the intent behind a map design shine again, not thwarted with jetpacks. Designing a map to flow one way and giving people the option to bypass it isn't freedom, it's self-defeating. 343 should have learned this with Reach.

I want there to be a pacing to a game from end to end again, as teams can plan and rally and coordinate as they fight for critical point on map control, for a critical piece of ordnance - and turn the tide with it. Those were moments of victory, moments where games could turn around. And they're forfeited for random ordnance handed out at random. So many mini-objectives - secure this choke point, obtain that ordnance, stop that vehicle - just fall by the wayside. It's all about flocking to the HUD waypoints.

I want vehicles to not be deathtraps again. Their purpose must be more defined than a short term EMP magnet; they used to feel like chess pieces to move around the board, not monster trucks we hope to get a kill or two with before it blows up.

I wish balance were defined as a cohesive set of tools that we can choose from. Not from choosing which aspect of combat we'll break, and call it balanced by the fact that other players might have broken a different part of it.

I want the game to have some kind of flow again. Because encounters and entire games feel like they were meant to be disposable, not memorable. The end result is I'm just not invested in any aspect of the game: the moment to moment shoot outs, the give and take of the game as it plays out, or the end result. None of it matters. (+10 ,Press X to Respawn) It's for this reason that the game just hasn't stuck with me; the game has a huge investment system of stuff to unlock, but I'm no longer invested in the actual game.

These things can be accomplished within the baseline of what Halo 4 offers. But it will require 343 to pull things in from where they are now, in all aspects of the game.

This is rambling, but it's 1:00 in the morning and my job won't let me write anything during the day lately. So there it is.

Excellent post, Ghaleon.
 

Omni

Member
On a positive note. I really ♥ the campaign in this game. I've already spent more time in it than I did with Reach's over two years.

I can't get over that ending. Loved the dialogue
(who voices Lasky?)
... MC has never felt more alive.
 

Spiders

Member
Despite it's flaws, I'm having a lot of fun with Halo 4.

Last night I got a Hail Mary from the grave thanks to instant respawn.
 

JB1981

Member
Ghaleon, once again, nails it. I find the things that I hate about Halo 4 could easily be fixed, though I doubt it. This is the same company that deleted Squad Slayer and replaced it with a clone of Team Slayer :/

What was so special about Squad Slayer? What am I missing here ?
 

aries_71

Junior Member
On a positive note. I really ♥ the campaign in this game. I've already spent more time in it than I did with Reach's over two years.

I can't get over that ending. Loved the dialogue
(who voices Lasky?)
... MC has never felt more alive.

Cortana has never felt more alive. MC is business as usual.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
Played the first level and a half on Legendary last night. Man this game's campaign is good. Story opinions aside, the visuals and sound direction just make me drool when playing the first few levels.
 
What was so special about Squad Slayer? What am I missing here ?
It was a popular playlist that a lot of us enjoyed in Reach, especially in comparison to the others.
Then it was unceremoniously nuked, with little to no dialogue on it.

I made this image poking fun at the situation some time ago:

iy3rr6UYfcy5g.png


Played the first level and a half on Legendary last night. Man this game's campaign is good. Story opinions aside, the visuals and sound direction just make me drool when playing the first few levels.
I find a lot of the Campaign visually stunning (with questionable art direction in places) but ultimately I find the encounters very mixed. I do enjoy I'd say half the encounters but a fair amount of them feel boring/stiff and some just unfair.

I've started a Legendary solo play-through and am finding it hard to muster up the passion to go back (after I lost 20 difficult minutes of progress thanks to the wonderful checkpoint system).
 

Tawpgun

Member
Played the first level and a half on Legendary last night. Man this game's campaign is good. Story opinions aside, the visuals and sound direction just make me drool when playing the first few levels.

Did anyone else find the Requiem level really underwhelming?

Exploring and driving through the wreckage was really cool. And when it opens up I thought the music should have had a bigger punch. Didn't feel like the reveal it should have been. I wish it wasn't as linear either. Something more akin to Halo from CE or Winter Contigency in Reach. Also it has this weird texture on the ground. Like Ragnarok but slightly worse. idk.

Encounters and level design could have been a lot better.

But the visuals and sound (aside from generic feeling music) were amazing. I wish we stayed on Requiem for longer.



Oh, and about the music... sure made me miss Marty. There was a non-combat part on Requiem when you're riding an elevator up where the music hit me good.
Then the only time the music ever felt powerful (during gameplay) was the last mission.

There weren't many, if at all, of those Under Cover of Night, Drum Run, the classic Halo action theme, Walk in the Woods, In Amber Clad, etc. moments in campaign.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Did anyone else find the Requiem level really underwhelming?

Exploring and driving through the wreckage was really cool. And when it opens up I thought the music should have had a bigger punch. Didn't feel like the reveal it should have been. I wish it wasn't as linear either. Something more akin to Halo from CE or Winter Contigency in Reach. Also it has this weird texture on the ground. Like Ragnarok but slightly worse. idk.

Encounters and level design could have been a lot better.

But the visuals and sound (aside from generic feeling music) were amazing. I wish we stayed on Requiem for longer.



Oh, and about the music... sure made me miss Marty. There was a non-combat part on Requiem when you're riding an elevator up where the music hit me good.
Then the only time the music ever felt powerful (during gameplay) was the last mission.

There weren't many, if at all, of those Under Cover of Night, Drum Run, the classic Halo action theme, Walk in the Woods, In Amber Clad, etc. moments in campaign.

That reveal was actually one of my favorite parts of the game. Shit gave me goosebumps the first time.
 

Tawpgun

Member
That reveal was actually one of my favorite parts of the game. Shit gave me goosebumps the first time.

The visuals were amazing. I stared at those structures for a while until Cortana told me to hurry the fuck up.

But the music during that scene was lacking.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
That reveal was actually one of my favorite parts of the game. Shit gave me goosebumps the first time.

Indeed.

One of the best parts for me is when you first step out of the airlock on the FUD and Cortana does the line about the Forerunner planet. You see ships everywhere, enemies, and Requiem all right there.
 

rakka

Member
has anyone noticed that when the king quits from a regicide game it pretty much turns into a standard FFA slayer game :-D (still with AAs but hey at least no stupid king bounty and ordnance)

much much better.

it only lasts until someone passes the kings last score before they quit though.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
A dominion-flood hybrid could be interesting. Humans fortify bases to defend themselves from the flood. Obviously strip the 'resupply', etc, but it could prove interesting.

Yes it could. I've actually thought the same. I think for a real flood like mode though you really need a ton of players. The 16 player limit is just too low anymore. I would love regular MP then some sort of War like mode something like RTCW had. Imagine having to carry out objectives, etc. Invasion in Halo Reach was a very primitive kind of version of that but it always was go here and stand there then go here and grab that. Imagine a 32 or even 64 player flood mode with the setup you described too.

So many things in Halo 4 encourages camping. Camo, promethean vision, even hologram to some degree. Personal ordnance means you don't have to venture out for power weapons. Boltshot as a loadout means you've got a mini shotgun in your pocket. DMR spam forces people to turtle down on big, open maps. Height indicators on the radar mean you know exactly where the enemies are, so you can camp and wait for them to come to you.

Of course, people don't have to abuse all these things, but they do, and the fact that they would is predictable. Like... It should have been predicted. Like... When making the game.

Exactly. Everything promotes camping.

Spotted on Polycount.

That's freaking wicked.

My problems with the game doesn't stem from games being competitive, I love competitive games.

I think 343 nailed the core gunplay. IMO, it feels like Halo. The way the movement is, is probably the best in the entire series, as well. It's just everything else I don't particularly care for (instant respawning, map control not having a big impact, ordinance, "random" power weapons not being varied at all - I don't think I've ever seen anything other than needler/scattershot on Haven, BTB/Dominion being absolute garbage, no weapons at all on any of the maps, perks needed to pick up nades, camo still as an armor ability, flinch, etc..)

Edit: I don't hate the game (it's not a Reach 2.0 for me), but it's not going to be a case where I play it every day for hours at a time like I did with Halo 3. It's just a game I'll go to casually when friends are on and they want to play.

I'm I've been saying all along. The gunplay and vehicles feel great other then of course how easy vehicles are to take down.

Uh wow.

Some people need to realise that it's just a game and chiiiill.

Yea. Some people really do need help. If the game pisses you off that much just sell it.

I was going to do a longer post on this another time, but I'm starting to conclude I'll never get around to it, thanks to my ongoing work load. So here goes - a very messy version of my over-arching problem with Halo 4's multiplayer combat.

There's just not a good flow to the game any longer. What began in Halo 3 with bubble shields interrupting combat on occasion and grav lifts allowing specific high walls to be vaulted has expanded to encompass every encounter and every surface of a map. Long open spaces are cut off in volleys of DMR and light rifle fire. Walls and spans are cleared with jet packs. Choke points that would once have held critical ordnance to be battled over, turning the tide of games, are left barren as ordnance rains down who knows where. Not only do these things demolish the way maps used to flow, but they've wreaked the way combat now plays out.

(On that note: respawn times should be tied to shield recharge times. This is one of those fundamental things about Halo, combat is built on a rhythm: encounter, survival, recharge, advance. This is why instant respawn is diametrically opposed to Halo's combat design, and it's baffling to me that this was not realized.)

Frankie and others have likened Halo often to a sport in the past. And the game often played out that way in prior games. But this is like a sport where everyone brings their own ball, uniform and score keeping onto the field, and the referees have been bound and gagged.

The sandbox often feels less like a specific set of toys were handed out to create a specific flavor of combat and chaos, and more like a big toy bin was dumped into the map, and everyone is throwing stuff at each other. There needs to be a steadier hand a the wheel than this. (On one of the last games I played, a week and a half ago, I saw a Ghost on Meltdown get tagged by four plasma pistol EMPs at the same time, and then have ~6 plasma grenades rain on it. I mean, seriously.)

Get dropped into the the losing side of an objective game in the middle? Pile up a few +10's and DMR someone from across the map a time or two. (Press X to respawn.) Admire the XP, unlock the skin, hop into another game hope you are near a Binary Rifle when it lands.

The rhythms and flow of the maps, the rhythms of combat, the ebbs and flows of a game from beginning to end, the cyclical struggles for critical ordnance...there's no flow any longer. Games don't feel like they have a beginning, a middle and an end - they just stop.

It all adds up to an experience that feels like it was meant to be disposable, and forgettable, on a moment to moment basis. Lose an encounter because you had Mobility but he had Stability? Look at all the +10's you got anyways. You might unlock something! Hit X to respawn.

It's like Halo 4 multiplayer has become all Arcadefight, all the time. When what I fell in love with was Limited. (Incidentally, this is exactly what happened to Firefight along the way, including the transition to Spartan Ops. It's now consequence-free combat.)

I want the intent behind a map design shine again, not thwarted with jetpacks. Designing a map to flow one way and giving people the option to bypass it isn't freedom, it's self-defeating. 343 should have learned this with Reach.

I want there to be a pacing to a game from end to end again, as teams can plan and rally and coordinate as they fight for critical point on map control, for a critical piece of ordnance - and turn the tide with it. Those were moments of victory, moments where games could turn around. And they're forfeited for random ordnance handed out at random. So many mini-objectives - secure this choke point, obtain that ordnance, stop that vehicle - just fall by the wayside. It's all about flocking to the HUD waypoints.

I want vehicles to not be deathtraps again. Their purpose must be more defined than a short term EMP magnet; they used to feel like chess pieces to move around the board, not monster trucks we hope to get a kill or two with before it blows up.

I wish balance were defined as a cohesive set of tools that we can choose from. Not from choosing which aspect of combat we'll break, and call it balanced by the fact that other players might have broken a different part of it.

I want the game to have some kind of flow again. Because encounters and entire games feel like they were meant to be disposable, not memorable. The end result is I'm just not invested in any aspect of the game: the moment to moment shoot outs, the give and take of the game as it plays out, or the end result. None of it matters. (+10 ,Press X to Respawn) It's for this reason that the game just hasn't stuck with me; the game has a huge investment system of stuff to unlock, but I'm no longer invested in the actual game.

These things can be accomplished within the baseline of what Halo 4 offers. But it will require 343 to pull things in from where they are now, in all aspects of the game.

This is rambling, but it's 1:00 in the morning and my job won't let me write anything during the day lately. So there it is.

And once again you nail it 100 percent on the head. Those I think are the biggest offenses this game makes. I really just need to start saying what Ghal said everytime someone asks me on my thoughts. I've agreed with you almost 100 percent every time.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
If we're being truthful the music in the entire game fell short of what you'd expect from a Halo game. It's tough to follow Marty, admittedly, but it didn't get anywhere close.

I agree. The music is just so forgettable in this game. Doesn't help that most of the time it's so muted anyway.
 

Arnie

Member
I agree. The music is just so forgettable in this game. Doesn't help that most of the time it's so muted anyway.

The only memorable track I can think of wasn't even created by Davidge (117).

I was going to do a longer post on this another time, but I'm starting to conclude I'll never get around to it, thanks to my ongoing work load. So here goes - a very messy version of my over-arching problem with Halo 4's multiplayer combat.

There's just not a good flow to the game any longer. What began in Halo 3 with bubble shields interrupting combat on occasion and grav lifts allowing specific high walls to be vaulted has expanded to encompass every encounter and every surface of a map. Long open spaces are cut off in volleys of DMR and light rifle fire. Walls and spans are cleared with jet packs. Choke points that would once have held critical ordnance to be battled over, turning the tide of games, are left barren as ordnance rains down who knows where. Not only do these things demolish the way maps used to flow, but they've wreaked the way combat now plays out.

(On that note: respawn times should be tied to shield recharge times. This is one of those fundamental things about Halo, combat is built on a rhythm: encounter, survival, recharge, advance. This is why instant respawn is diametrically opposed to Halo's combat design, and it's baffling to me that this was not realized.)

Frankie and others have likened Halo often to a sport in the past. And the game often played out that way in prior games. But this is like a sport where everyone brings their own ball, uniform and score keeping onto the field, and the referees have been bound and gagged.

The sandbox often feels less like a specific set of toys were handed out to create a specific flavor of combat and chaos, and more like a big toy bin was dumped into the map, and everyone is throwing stuff at each other. There needs to be a steadier hand a the wheel than this. (On one of the last games I played, a week and a half ago, I saw a Ghost on Meltdown get tagged by four plasma pistol EMPs at the same time, and then have ~6 plasma grenades rain on it. I mean, seriously.)

Get dropped into the the losing side of an objective game in the middle? Pile up a few +10's and DMR someone from across the map a time or two. (Press X to respawn.) Admire the XP, unlock the skin, hop into another game hope you are near a Binary Rifle when it lands.

The rhythms and flow of the maps, the rhythms of combat, the ebbs and flows of a game from beginning to end, the cyclical struggles for critical ordnance...there's no flow any longer. Games don't feel like they have a beginning, a middle and an end - they just stop.

It all adds up to an experience that feels like it was meant to be disposable, and forgettable, on a moment to moment basis. Lose an encounter because you had Mobility but he had Stability? Look at all the +10's you got anyways. You might unlock something! Hit X to respawn.

It's like Halo 4 multiplayer has become all Arcadefight, all the time. When what I fell in love with was Limited. (Incidentally, this is exactly what happened to Firefight along the way, including the transition to Spartan Ops. It's now consequence-free combat.)

I want the intent behind a map design shine again, not thwarted with jetpacks. Designing a map to flow one way and giving people the option to bypass it isn't freedom, it's self-defeating. 343 should have learned this with Reach.

I want there to be a pacing to a game from end to end again, as teams can plan and rally and coordinate as they fight for critical point on map control, for a critical piece of ordnance - and turn the tide with it. Those were moments of victory, moments where games could turn around. And they're forfeited for random ordnance handed out at random. So many mini-objectives - secure this choke point, obtain that ordnance, stop that vehicle - just fall by the wayside. It's all about flocking to the HUD waypoints.

I want vehicles to not be deathtraps again. Their purpose must be more defined than a short term EMP magnet; they used to feel like chess pieces to move around the board, not monster trucks we hope to get a kill or two with before it blows up.

I wish balance were defined as a cohesive set of tools that we can choose from. Not from choosing which aspect of combat we'll break, and call it balanced by the fact that other players might have broken a different part of it.

I want the game to have some kind of flow again. Because encounters and entire games feel like they were meant to be disposable, not memorable. The end result is I'm just not invested in any aspect of the game: the moment to moment shoot outs, the give and take of the game as it plays out, or the end result. None of it matters. (+10 ,Press X to Respawn) It's for this reason that the game just hasn't stuck with me; the game has a huge investment system of stuff to unlock, but I'm no longer invested in the actual game.

These things can be accomplished within the baseline of what Halo 4 offers. But it will require 343 to pull things in from where they are now, in all aspects of the game.

This is rambling, but it's 1:00 in the morning and my job won't let me write anything during the day lately. So there it is.

This is a fantastic post that I agree with 100%. I've got a feeling many people do. It's also something that we warned, spoke, and hypothesised about pre-release.
 

Tawpgun

Member
If we're being truthful the music in the entire game fell short of what you'd expect from a Halo game. It's tough to follow Marty, admittedly, but it didn't get anywhere close.

I think its because Davidge went for grand orchestral in scale whereas Marty went for memorable/iconic if you can even classify it that.

Some were very good, but they weren't played/repeated often enough. In the Bungie games a lot of the themes were repeated and built upon. Davidge sounded like Halo trying to be Hans Zimmer

Another thing, Marty was really anal about not letting the players customize audio levels. I hoped with him gone that would change... I want to be able to raise music volume, but I can't.
 

WJD

Member
Ghaleon completely nailed my feelings on the previous page. I haven't had the motivation to play in about 2 weeks (albeit in part due to various assignments) and that's absolutely ludicrous for a Halo game. It's hard to pinpoint my feelings specifically and I normally just churn out the usual "It's just not Halo anymore!" tripe, so I'm glad there are more eloquent, patient members of HaloGAF such as Ghal, Arnie, slt etc that are willing to dissect it's deficiencies a lot more thoroughly.

All I wanted was a sequel to Halo 3 :(
 
I agree. The music is just so forgettable in this game. Doesn't help that most of the time it's so muted anyway.

Isn't it intentionally muted? I thought they were going for a more atmospheric approach as opposed to the more orchestrated score that Marty has used. I think the latter takes into account the happenings of the story where the former is more to capture the mood of the surroundings where the story is taking place.

Just my thoughts on it anyway. You can definitely say the music in 4 isn't as memorable but I think it has to do with the styles.
 

Arnie

Member
IDavidge sounded like Halo trying to be Hans Zimmer

This is my exact impression of it, and it results in a really generic sound, to me.

Honestly, the first thing I thought of when I heard that core Davidge theme in the pre-release media was the Hanz Zimmer tune that plays during the Crysis 2 loading screen. Literally, I'm not exaggerating for effect, that's my gut reaction to it.
 

Deadly Cyclone

Pride of Iowa State
I don't know what you guys are talking about, I love the music. It has a grand and full feeling to it, but with a hint of discovery and the unknown. I'd agree that they don't use it enough though. I do miss Marty though, he's a legend. *Goes and listens to Halo ODST soundtrack*
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I don't know what you guys are talking about, I love the music. I'd agree that they don't use it enough though. I do miss Marty though, he's a legend. *Goes and listens to Halo ODST soundtrack*
Davidge's stuff to me is interesting but generic on its own, but it's badly treated in the games--music cross fades like a bad fan edit out of cutscenes, etc. I'm guessing that's a result of not having an in-house composer, but at times it was really jarring for me. Otherwise the music is mostly treated like sonic wallpaper.
 
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