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Halo |OT12| Last One Out, Get the Lights

TCKaos

Member
Just ripped in to some Dominion, and I've been noticing that as of late the Base Offense and Base Defense medals have been reversed. While assaulting the base I was getting Base Defense medals with every kill, and every subsequent encounter where an enemy got in to the base and was viciously decimated I was awarded with a Base Offense medal. I was awarded capture assists seemingly at random, even though I hadn't moved from the base I captured.

Reach had much better and weightier looking Spartan player models I think

They looked really fat but their animations conveyed far more weight than Halo 4's SPARTANs, which is odd given that they wanted to make sure that you felt like a walking tank. In Reach the SPARTAN-III leans forward, his rifle being jostled about his arms, struggling to stay in his grip. He makes a mad dash for the objective, throwing his big meaty torso on to his legs and letting the momentum carry him forward. A SPARTAN-IV just looks like he's briskfully jogging - back straight, weapon held neatly at waist level. Their legs are mechanically looking for the ground below them, struggling to keep their ballonishly light torsos grounded.
 
343 moved some token elements of Bungie's suite forward but key parts were lost. And they are not replaced with another vision. It's just a set of now fragmented, jumbled features that are there mostly because they used to be there. Well, some of them anyways. What's 343's vision for community collaboration, for player customization, for content sharing? I have no idea. I can only see fragments of Bungie's vision here. I think 343 didn't really have a vision, or at least one different from Bungie's, for that part of the game.

Bold for exactly what went wrong in this game. Carrying over Bungie's vision combined with a copy and paste of CoD is what happened here. Im curious, the one thing 343i did right is restore the player movement in H4 which came from past games anyway. For the size of this team where is the originality? Where is the 343i Halo? For the few of us who got killed in all the OT threads leading up to the game every single one of the fears came true. This game is a crazy unbalanced mess and some of it was on purpose to add Specializations.

Lets make the footsteps really loud, so we can make them quiet again with a Specialization.
Let's add Flinch, so we can tone it down with a Specialization.
Let give people the ability to see through fuckin walls. Want to remove, there is a Specialization for that.

Broken, broken, broken. Along with the AA's and tactile nonsense and the core thing they overlooked was that as a player I can go into a one on one battle on equal ground.

To me, this is what made Halo great. If I got killed, I knew most of the time is because the other guy was quicker than I was. Now, I wonder what his loadout was.
 
Great post Ghaleon. One thing Halo 3 did really well was push content creation and sharing. Its fileshare format, with the 6 or 24 cinema reel squares, all viewable whilst in the pre-game lobby, is unrivalled by both Reach and Halo 4.

Just had a game of regicide where a guy spent the whole game sprint/plasma sticking people. It then reminded me of a few other games where I'd seen this happen. I assume there's a visor/helmet/spartan strap-on attached to plasma sticks in this game?
 

TCKaos

Member
This game is a crazy unbalanced mess and some of it was on purpose to add Specializations.

To me, every Specialization save for Pioneer was created for the sole purpose of fixing something broken in the sandbox that wouldn't have been broken had it not been for 343i's Cawadooty-esque tampering.

Wetworks/Stealth - Made specifically to counter the broken wallhax ability
Operator/Wheelman - Made specifically to counter low vehicle health and Plasma Pistol starts
Pathfinder/Gunner - Buffs default Warthog turret to make it more viable
Engineer/Drop Recon - Makes it easier to find random Global Ordnance
Stalker/Nemesis - Helps you navigate with a red X
Rogue/Stability - Made specifically to counter flinch
Tracker/Requisition - Makes it less frustrating to get random Personal Ordnance because you can roll again

They're all designed specifically to fix something that was the result of their own actions. If PV wasn't overpowered you wouldn't need Stealth. If there were no PP spawns you wouldn't need Wheelman or Gunner. If there were no random drops you wouldn't need Drop Recon. If you had a red X or didn't have instant respawn you wouldn't need Nemesis. If there was scope breaking instead of flinching you wouldn't need Stability. If you didn't get personal ordnance there'd be no need for Requisition.

It's like breaking a giant clay vase and then duct taping the pieces back together - in the wrong positions, to boot.

Great post Ghaleon. One thing Halo 3 did really well was push content creation and sharing. Its fileshare format, with the 6 or 24 cinema reel squares, all viewable whilst in the pre-game lobby, is unrivalled by both Reach and Halo 4.

Just had a game of regicide where a guy spent the whole game sprint/plasma sticking people. It then reminded me of a few other games where I'd seen this happen. I assume there's a visor/helmet/spartan strap-on attached to plasma sticks in this game?

Covenant Loadout Mastery nets you the SURG Recon Armor Skin. Probably that.
 
To me, every Specialization save for Pioneer was created for the sole purpose of fixing something broken in the sandbox that wouldn't have been broken had it not been for 343i's Cawadooty-esque tampering.

Wetworks/Stealth - Made specifically to counter the broken wallhax ability
Operator/Wheelman - Made specifically to counter low vehicle health and Plasma Pistol starts
Pathfinder/Gunner - Buffs default Warthog turret to make it more viable
Engineer/Drop Recon - Makes it easier to find random Global Ordnance
Stalker/Nemesis - Helps you navigate with a red X
Rogue/Stability - Made specifically to counter flinch
Tracker/Requisition - Makes it less frustrating to get random Personal Ordnance because you can roll again

They're all designed specifically to fix something that was the result of their own actions. If PV wasn't overpowered you wouldn't need Stealth. If there were in PP spawns you wouldn't need Wheelman or Gunner. If there were no random drops you wouldn't need Drop Recon. If you had a red X or didn't have instant respawn you wouldn't need Nemesis. If there was scope breaking instead of flinching you wouldn't need Stability. If you didn't get personal ordnance there'd be no need for Requisition.

It's like breaking a giant clay vase and then duct taping the pieces back together - in the wrong positions, to boot.

They duct taped a game on top of an investment system.

So annoying when the king suddenly gets an overshield in the middle of a 1v1. Should have a 5 second countdown visible above his head. Or just put normal ffa in.
 
Never got a specialization code in the mail. Awesome. Never got the gold spartan armor code from watching the debates either. My contact email is set to the same email that was used to create the gamertag.
 

Pop

Member
Boltshot is a power weapon. It should never be in loadouts.

Indeed.

Specializations seem to counter whats broke in MM. Like 343i removed a feature that's been in previous halos out of MP just to re-add it back as a spec. That's some backwards thinking.
 

CyReN

Member
Should we still trust 343 even though they've let us down many times?

It all comes down how they listen to the community, patch the problems with the game, and implement logical playlist. Small maps in the future that aren't Forge would help too.
 
Another thing I miss? Being able to press the back button after a game to see who each person was that is still sticking around to party up. Now I have to tediously match them up one by one..
 

FyreWulff

Member
At some point we have to admit it. We love when they shit on our chests. It's hot, dirty and exciting all at once.


Right?

Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif
 

DeadNames

Banned
Who says you need to trust anyone? I put trust in individuals, not corporations or companies or anything without its own brain.

They always said that things "would be explained at a later time and "PV is not overpowered; a good player will find it useless".
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
They always said that things "would be explained at a later time and "PV is not overpowered; a good player will find it useless".

Devs aren't good players. Finding "pros" that confirm your design choice isn't "proof" it's confirmation bias. These are the mistakes a lot of developers make. Also, devs will feed lines of bullshit pre-release to keep hype levels up. Then at release they disappear, only to reappear prior to the next DLC/expansion/etc to re-hype.

It's a vicious cycle.
 
idk the logical evolution of overshield and camo on maps somehow turned into perks and personal loadouts in 343s eyes. I don't even want to know what the logical evolution of perks is.



if it's not brought up in the bulletin this week, then probably not. :/

Well os and camo was evolved into aa by bungie first.
Halo 4 is more an evolution of halo reach than classic halo
 

GhaleonEB

Member
*snip*

Hope your feeling better btw Ghaleon!

I agree with your sentiments. Even with what was cut, Halo 4 is a huge undertaking and an enormous project. I don't want to minimize that. But the results are definitely a bit scatter shot.

Personal digression:

Thanks, I am indeed doing better.

Yesterday I slept until noon, which was great. Then we had a trip to the ER as my younger daughter slipped on some grass and smacked her face on a retaining wall at a kids party. Face covered with blood, filling one eye socket, EMTs on the scene, chaos. I drive her to the ER (45 minute drive) and she throws up everywhere on the way. Pit stop for cleanup, now she's covered in blood and vomit. Surreal, stinky chaos. Ended up with stitches between her eyes and down the bridge of her nose where she got whacked. We all got home late from the ER exhausted. So it wasn't quite the day of rest I had hoped for.

About to settle in for an afternoon of family board games. Hoping to get actual rest today. :lol

[/personal digression]
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
I agree with your sentiments. Even with what was cut, Halo 4 is a huge undertaking and an enormous project. I don't want to minimize that. But the results are definitely a bit scatter shot.

Personal digression:

Thanks, I am indeed doing better.

*snip*

[/personal digression]

So you're saying the results are disappointing, and ineffective? ;)


Sounds like you need a vacation with the personal shit going the way it is bud.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
It's the players that make this game a nightmare, 343 isn't the only party involved in bringing it down.

Not entirely true. The community YELLED about the shit they knew would be abused and "we" were told "sgonnabeok." Well, it's not. Same shit went down in Gears with the sawed off, no one listened and look at that shit.

When you give the internet tools to be assholes, they will be assholes. The game won't be played the way "you" designed it to be played. It will be played based on what you gave the assholes to abuse.

The blame mostly lies with 343 for not heeding the warning or having the foresight to see this shit coming.
 
Without a doubt one of the worst marketing teams amongst game developers.

Yup, things leading up to release were a confusing mess. The large scale PR was just confusing as hell as well, and the advertising campaign felt very lackluster compared to past titles.

I tweeted about this last night, but I wanted to elaborate on it a bit.

I went a couple weeks without playing Halo 4, and then came back to it over this weekend. And that time off, mulling stuff over, and then seeing the game again has helped me better understand some of my feelings about the game.

In short, it feels like there are two different, incompatible visions for what Halo is at work here. One is what Bungie created, the more methodically paced shooter with a two weapon limit, a 'golden tripod' combat sandbox, fluid movement and the shield recharge system. The other is this more frenetic "modern" shooter that 343 wanted to make.

In preserving Halo's "core", as has been said so often, and making the changes they did to the game, 343 has created a game with an identity crisis. Is it still the more methodically paced shooter with cool down times between encounters, or the one with rapid kill times and instant respawns? Is it a game where everyone starts out on equal footing, or one where people who have the better unlocks have advantages?

That's the gameplay. I've dumped enough text about it here already. But the same kind of schism is at play in the overall feature set, so I wanted to try and articulate what I see with Halo 4 there.

Over the course of Halo 1 and Halo 2, Bungie invested deeply in player customization and options. With Halo 3 they expanded that to include ways to share both community creations, but also experiences. Part of what I've loved about Halo has become the ways we can not only define how we experience Halo, but then to also share that and the ensuing experiences with the community. That brought us Forge, Theater, File Share, Campaign Scoring, Skulls, and deep multiplayer customization options.

It was a pretty cohesive vision for collaborative content creation and sharing within the community. And a big part of this community for a while; custom game types, screenshot stories, shared video clips (rendered on b.net).

Here's what 343 did to those features:

Forge
Development outsourced. Deeply flawed Forge World pieces carried over. New lighting and a handful of new items and features, and the loss of fine editing tools, among other problems. A decidedly incremental take, and given what the mode lost, perhaps even a sideways step.

Theater
Removed from Spartan Ops. Removed from Campaign. Vague promises of maybe coming later, but it's clearly not a priority.

Skulls
Featured in Campaign only, inexplicably not available in Spartan Ops. Uses the exact same set as Halo 3, ODST, and Reach. A token carry-over feature with no thought into moving the ideas forward.

Campaign Scoring
Gone.

File Share
Rendered almost useless by the lack of Waypoint functionality and neutered in-game functionality. And what will people be sharing? The scope of content available has dropped dramatically.

In fairness some of these things 343 has talked about adding at some point down the road to Halo 4. But they were clearly not a priority to them. But to me, they formed a cohesive suite of features that worked in concert, allowing players to have a great degree of control over their experience and then share those experiences with the community; creation and collaboration. (Play. Forge. Film. Share.) I used them extensively; they were part and parcel of how I played the game.

343 moved some token elements of Bungie's suite forward but key parts were lost. And they are not replaced with another vision. It's just a set of now fragmented, jumbled features that are there mostly because they used to be there. Well, some of them anyways. What's 343's vision for community collaboration, for player customization, for content sharing? I have no idea. I can only see fragments of Bungie's vision here. I think 343 didn't really have a vision, or at least one different from Bungie's, for that part of the game.

But those things were important to me, and had become a part of why I loved Halo. And it's just another way in which the Halo 4 moved away from what I wanted. It would be one thing if there was a new, different vision to embrace here. But there's not. I think 343 needs to step back and ask themselves what their overall vision for this kind of stuff is. Because some of Bungie's left overs, and only some, do not make for something very cohesive. They need to dream a little bigger, or dream a little different, next time around.

Great post, especially about the lack of forward movement with features like Forge, Theater, Skulls, etc. Its a shame they really didn't build a new awesome suite of Forge features.. there is so much potential in a fleshed out map editor in Halo, even if it isn't a full fledged terrain editor like Far Cry 2/3. Ultimately it really seems 343 rushed a lot of things, even though we know they spent a lot of time working on this game.. it just feels like it needed more polish, more features, more thought and oomph. The SP needed some revisions to make it more fun, the story needed more fleshing to make it more sense worthy and engaging, Spartan Ops needed more something to actually make it a stand out mode.. The list goes on. MP I like, but it desperately needs more options and customizable controls.. most of all it needs a suite of classic playlists. I like the Infinity stuff minus Global Ordinance, but that really doesn't mean I do not want more of a barebones experience.. plus a lot of the community really do not enjoy the new changes.. give them something to enjoy so they don't feel like 343 slapped an expiration date on them and threw them out.

Reach had much better and weightier looking Spartan player models I think

I kinda agree.. I feel a merging of the two styles would be perfect.. The Halo 4 Spartans are a bit too 'heroic' in their proportions and style, making them look a little off. MC feels nice and real though.

Boltshot is a power weapon. It should never be in loadouts.
Eh, I love the Boltshot, but I feel the overcharge needs toned down and the single shot needs to be slightly boosted.
 
Not entirely true. The community YELLED about the shit they knew would be abused and "we" were told "sgonnabeok." Well, it's not. Same shit went down in Gears with the sawed off, no one listened and look at that shit.

When you give the internet tools to be assholes, they will be assholes. The game won't be played the way "you" designed it to be played. It will be played based on what you gave the assholes to abuse.

The blame mostly lies with 343 for not heeding the warning or having the foresight to see this shit coming.

Yep. Wouldn't it go through at least one devs mind "Well fuck it would be pretty annoying if a full team was running around with camo/dexterity/boltshot combo the entire game?"

Maybe that's why the shotgun was a loadout weapon during one of the beta tests.
 

ZalinKrow

Member
I finished the commendation for the DMR a while back, finally got the BR done today. Funny thing though, literally on the second game I played primarily using the AR I got a message from someone on the other team saying "put the ar down" lol. I thought it was funny. The AR is bizarre, I'm glad automatics are finally worth using and all, but I felt so cheap winning encounters with it :p
 
Not entirely true. The community YELLED about the shit they knew would be abused and "we" were told "sgonnabeok." Well, it's not. Same shit went down in Gears with the sawed off, no one listened and look at that shit.

When you give the internet tools to be assholes, they will be assholes. The game won't be played the way "you" designed it to be played. It will be played based on what you gave the assholes to abuse.

The blame mostly lies with 343 for not heeding the warning or having the foresight to see this shit coming.
Storm before the calm eh?
 
Devs aren't good players. Finding "pros" that confirm your design choice isn't "proof" it's confirmation bias. These are the mistakes a lot of developers make. Also, devs will feed lines of bullshit pre-release to keep hype levels up. Then at release they disappear, only to reappear prior to the next DLC/expansion/etc to re-hype.

It's a vicious cycle.



Not entirely true. The community YELLED about the shit they knew would be abused and "we" were told "sgonnabeok." Well, it's not. Same shit went down in Gears with the sawed off, no one listened and look at that shit.

When you give the internet tools to be assholes, they will be assholes. The game won't be played the way "you" designed it to be played. It will be played based on what you gave the assholes to abuse.

The blame mostly lies with 343 for not heeding the warning or having the foresight to see this shit coming.

To be fair most devs that are bigger than indie size do this. It's all about the marketing hype cycle and the huge disconnect of medium to large size developers between the people who actually design the game and the people who communicate with the community.
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
You know big team slayer is so fun. My load out is so fun. I just spawn and head right toward their tank,hog, etc with my plasma pistol and sticky grenades and bam the kills start flowing in. Lmao.
 
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