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Halo |OT13|

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343 Industries

Yeah, this is somewhat of a taboo topic around here. Why? Probably because quite a few of you guys have met them, chatted with them, maybe even had a drink with them. 9 times out of 10, they seem like nice peeps, with the 1/10 occurring when crying babies are posted with no context, after complaints arise about a new Halo "feature".

But let's face it. Their most recent product is not received well by many and a large chunk of the Halo population has gone away, leaving the game to look like a lifeline. The population started leaving en masse with Reach. Now many have said that Reach is a polished turd; that the core game isn't fun but it is a consistent experience all round. Halo 4 has been called the opposite. It's a poop covered diamond; where the core game is the best it has ever been, but there's so much crap on top that it's not fun to play. Now the focus of this post isn't to find out how to get that diamond. That's been covered. My post is about why Halo 4 feels unpolished, and I'm actually going to give some armchair designer advice on what to do to fix it for the next title.(yep, I'm stealing the armchair thing from Havok. It's far too apt of a description.)

For starters, let's compare it to the polished, but unfun game of Halo Reach. We know that Reach was in Alpha phase around Bungie Day 2009, thanks to the Bungie podcast that came out on that day. In it, Nathan Fillion discusses that he got the chance to play Reach in their internal testing on that day. This is approximately 13 months from shipping to gold. We know that in the sandbox podcast for Halo 4 released sometime around March that Halo 4 was still in pre-Alpha, approximately 7 months from shipping to gold.

We know that Halo 4 had 4 builds, maybe 5: First Look, E3, PAX, and Final. Reach had at least 5, although there were probably at least 1 or 2 between the public beta(which was the delta build) and the final. Reach was content complete by May 2010. Due to the lack of any substantial updates on Halo 4, we have no info on when it was content complete. If we scale things, it would be around August. Linearly would place it around December. So Halo 4 was content complete anywhere between 2 months to ship.

So 13 months from ship, Bungie was finalizing their alpha. What was 343I doing? Well, 13 months puts us right around the time of HaloFest. You're probably thinking,"Oh! 343 was making Anniversary." You wouldn't be wrong. But also realize that Bungie was doing the exact same thing with ODST. I recently rewatched the HaloFest Halo 4 panel, and I took note of the basic structure of it. It opens up with a "Working at 343" video. The first half of the panel was talking about what it was like to work at 343. Only the last half and the Q&A did they actually talk about Halo 4. My theory is that they were just finishing up the concepting portion of Halo 4 around then. That's why we got a concept art trailer with music that doesn't appear anywhere in the game or the soundtrack.

Since I brought up Anniversary, let's do a quick look at that. The engine overhaul(or lack thereof) was done by Sabre Interactive and the map pack was done by Certain Affinity. I'm assuming that Sabre primarily worked on the engine and that the 343 art team was working on the actual models and upres graphics. Why are we questioning outsourcing now?

We can extrapolate a lot about how management on Anniversary went, thanks to the 5 ViDocs BTSs that were put out on it. Halo 4 had 4 BTSs + 4 little videos on weapons/Mantis. We know that our beloved David Ellis is a Spartan Ops designer, but what was he beforehand? He was a content manager. Look how much meaningful content was put out for Anniversary and how much was put out for Halo 4. Did anyone fill his shoes at 343? For the record, he did a damn good job at teasing no bloom settings in just one video, whereas in Halo 4 we find out about settings from a shaky cam video of someone playing at a convention.



Since we have no idea what went on during the development of the game, the following is all speculation. Halo 4 was made by groups of people, and not a team. There are very distinct things that make you question if everything was done separately. The biggest example is something that Devo brought to my attention. The UIs for every section look different. The Spartan Ops UI looks vastly different to the War Games baseball cards, which looks vastly different from the Main Menu. Certain animations make that model invincible, was the animation team working with the design team at all?

And all of this information was coming to the consumer from Jessica. I don't mean to say that she isn't capable, but that is far too much work for one person to do a great job on all aspects. We were getting "ship themed Halo Reach Forge maps" as a headline after a major Halo 4 news drop. I understand that Waypoint is for all things Halo, but there is definitely a difference between Forge ships and actual news. Post release, you have to search through the blog to get at the patch notes. I brought up Gearbox and their Borderlands 2 patch notes a few days ago. Waypoint360 and Halo 4 need this displayed somewhere prominent on their site. Another note about information releases, there were far too many exclusives going out to far too many gaming journalists.

So what does 343 do going forward? After the game went gold, they should have sat down and said "What do we want in Halo 4 that wasn't there at launch?" They are going to make some tough decisions, that not everyone will agree with. Some decisions that were cut might have to remain cut. Right now, some of the higher ups should be looking at the community feedback and saying "these are the things that we need for Halo 5." There should definitely be some pre-planning on what modes are available to the player.

Campaign theatre should be in development for Halo 5. While it is being developed, it should be analyzed against how it could work in Halo 4 for a potential patch; no guarantee. Sadly, the priority is on the next title, not the current botched one. The multiplayer team should be looking at how they can craft a core setting that is fun. Then add removable layers of additional fluff. This way, the player can truly play the way that they want to play. The campaign team should be looking at design encounters and maybe crafting some basic playspaces on a whiteboard that offer multiple options to the player. And most importantly, every couple of weeks, everyone should get together and analyze what each other is doing. I may not be an artist, but I can tell you that Jackals looking like Godzilla may not be the best decision.

Sorry for the giant wall without any pictures. I was noticing a lot of stuff that just seemed rushed, and that is my theory on why. I know I'm missing stuff like some of the recent news about outsourcing and stuff, but oh well. Maybe next time.

The game is great. People get tired of more of the same. I haven't heard a single person who bought Blops 2 who has said it was amazing - everyone has mentioned in one fashion or another that they're getting tired of it. Same with Halo. Same with Guitar Hero.

The universe is amazing. The engine is fun. The design is great, The gameplay is a bit stale. That's the key here. It's a tired song on a tired radio.

Money WELL spend on development. Could have been marketed a bit harder, could have been blah blah blah should have would have... however, the game is great and is a shining example of game development.
 
That isn't us, unfortunately our acronym (THC) also means weed (or some part of weed if we want to get technical.) It's pretty common among dudebros across the online universe.

hahaha every gametype he uses is THC FFA, or THC SLAYER. right now im playing 16 play ffa on beaver creek. its insane.
 

JHall

Member
Since there was some dog discussion, my doggy had some puppies. they are cute.

8284885803_d535c9810a_d.jpg

I want them.
 
The game is great. People get tired of more of the same. I haven't heard a single person who bought Blops 2 who has said it was amazing - everyone has mentioned in one fashion or another that they're getting tired of it. Same with Halo. Same with Guitar Hero.

The universe is amazing. The engine is fun. The design is great, The gameplay is a bit stale. That's the key here. It's a tired song on a tired radio.

Money WELL spend on development. Could have been marketed a bit harder, could have been blah blah blah should have would have... however, the game is great and is a shining example of game development.

I would say its a different song on a different radio and that most people either:
a) Are long term Halo fans and are disappointed because they want more of the same
or
b) Have never enjoyed Halo anyway
or
c) Are new to the whole thing but just dont see what all the fuss is about

Its been a really long time since Halo 1, 2 and even 3. I would imagine most people fall into camp 'c' - and since they removed the good old fashioned Halo gameplay they needed to really replace it with something fun and gripping. Something I dont think they pulled off.

Lets be honest, Halo 3's peak was 2008? Its been 5 years since then and thats a lifetime in video game years. The number of people who are coming to the series post original trilogy is huge. Its sad but group 'a' will never be the target market anymore. Its group 'C' which 343 are trying to cater to, but in order to do that they need to make a good game.

Sadly I doubt the number of people who have been with the series since the start is a sizeable percentage of the player pool now. I doubt Halo fatigue has set in, just that with the number of years that have gone by many people have moved on and many have moved in.
 

Fracas

#fuckonami
The game is great. People get tired of more of the same. I haven't heard a single person who bought Blops 2 who has said it was amazing - everyone has mentioned in one fashion or another that they're getting tired of it. Same with Halo. Same with Guitar Hero.

The universe is amazing. The engine is fun. The design is great, The gameplay is a bit stale. That's the key here. It's a tired song on a tired radio.

Money WELL spend on development. Could have been marketed a bit harder, could have been blah blah blah should have would have... however, the game is great and is a shining example of game development.

So 9.8/10?
 
Sorry for being the guy who brought up the OP.

--

That discussion earlier about the Prometheans got me thinking, and here's the quick and dirty outcome:



I know it looks all Tron-like, but really, they already did from the start.

Just a thought. If their colour wasn't tied to story (which I think is a mistake, currently, we'll see where that goes) then it would make more sense, anyway.

I much prefer those concepts to what we got. I still don't understand the blue vs orange thing.
 
I would say its a different song on a different radio and that most people either:
a) Are long term Halo fans and are disappointed because they want more of the same
or
b) Have never enjoyed Halo anyway
or
c) Are new to the whole thing but just dont see what all the fuss is about

Its been a really long time since Halo 1, 2 and even 3. I would imagine most people fall into camp 'c' - and since they removed the good old fashioned Halo gameplay they needed to really replace it with something fun and gripping. Something I dont think they pulled off.

Lets be honest, Halo 3's peak was 2008? Its been 5 years since then and thats a lifetime in video game years. The number of people who are coming to the series post original trilogy is huge. Its sad but group 'a' will never be the target market anymore. Its group 'C' which 343 are trying to cater to, but in order to do that they need to make a good game.

Sadly I doubt the number of people who have been with the series since the start is a sizeable percentage of the player pool now. I doubt Halo fatigue has set in, just that with the number of years that have gone by many people have moved on and many have moved in.
Also true.

Sales numbers don't lie though, and Halo 4 sold mountains. The long term longevity does not bode well, sure. But it kept the investors happy.


And I plan on buying Greg Bear's novel still....
 
COD has a symmetrical map. Also, one with a moving train (RIP Terminal). The create a class UI is horrible; looks like Halo 4.

You don't like the pick 10 UI?

I found it incredibly simple once I realized it was pick 10, had no idea what the bar up top was for before I figured it out (quickly). I didn't do much reading about BlopsII so I didnt know the create a class was a pick 10 system, which I think is AMAZING for the diversity of the gameplay.

Its not convulated every pick change is within one screen...Your whole class of choices is laid out in front of you dunno how they could have made it better.
 
You don't like the pick 10 UI?

I found it incredibly simple once I realized it was pick 10, had no idea what the bar up top was for before I figured it out (quickly). I didn't do much reading about BlopsII so I didnt know the create a class was a pick 10 system, which I think is AMAZING for the diversity of the gameplay.

Its not convulated every pick change is within one screen...Your whole class of choices is laid out in front of you dunno how they could have made it better.

I don't like the part where you select a gun. The scrolling up and down to find weapon categories is badly implemented. I did not realize that there were categories to choose from at first.
 

orznge

Banned
Sorry for being the guy who brought up the OP.

--

That discussion earlier about the Prometheans got me thinking, and here's the quick and dirty outcome:



I know it looks all Tron-like, but really, they already did from the start.

Just a thought. If their colour wasn't tied to story (which I think is a mistake, currently, we'll see where that goes) then it would make more sense, anyway.

those look really cool
 

Crazyorloco

Member
In halo 4 are crawlers ancient dogs? I'm saying this because the knights are ancient humans.

Your dogs reminded me of the crawlers.
 
Kylej's OP is fine, you guys need to cheer the fuck up.

If you're getting tired of the negativeness of the thread just stay out of it for a while, go out... dunno, I went back to working out and it's really paying out.

Still <3 u guys, game is great.

Fix your fucking fileshares 343, seriously.

Edit: Impact's shadowing makes it too damm dark for you to see shit, they should tone it down a bit.
 
Well, I'm not the best at making avatars I've discovered, but I came up with this. It's as close as I could get to my old one, but higher quality:

IwdsV.jpg
VS
BszEA.jpg


Thanks again for the image, Wu.

those look really cool

Thanks. I just played around with the Hue and Saturation a bit on each, nothing fancy. I'm sure the colours could be tweaked a bit better to perhaps fall better in line with the colours the Covenant use to denote rank.

I think that having more diverse colours in the enemies is a good thing, and may really help to distinguish between the different Bromethean enemy classes in the game.
I think it goes something like this, as it is now, in game (may have gotten a few mixed up):

-Green (smokey dude): Incineration Cannon
-Blue (Feather dude): Scattershot
-Orange (crazy dude with the circle thingy): Binary Rifle
-Purple (regular lookin dude): Suppressor

I think there's one actually missing, the Light Rifle guys, they kinda look like a jet or stingray, I think:

gX3oz.jpg


Made him pink, could do red or yellow, too, I guess.

Of course, colours, may have to be adjusted for those that are colour-blind.
 

IHaveIce

Banned
Seems like I'm for some reason not registered for the challenge thing, great. But when I type my name in it says it is in use.



Gamesager first place, wow surprise, how many people play with that account again?
 
COD has a symmetrical map. Also, one with a moving train (RIP Terminal). The create a class UI is horrible; looks like Halo 4.

From a Aesthetic point of view the CoD maps blow the Halo maps out of the water, which is a shame because Halo literally has places out of this world it can use as multiplayer environments and yet we get space stations on derelict planets time after time.
 

Omni

Member
Completely off topic... went out to a party last night and got absolutely hammered. Started rambling on as I usually do in such situations and basically told 20+ people that I liked a girl... who was there... as was her ex. This morning I acted like I didn't remember anything, but the ~40min car ride home with her was pretty odd.

Never drinking again.

But... nothing better then a day at home playing some Halo. Might give Halo 3 a go I think. BTB is always fun
 
Have they made any official comment on why Koth was removed and if it will ever return ?

From the Dec 06th Bulletin:

There&#8217;s only one thing to say after last week&#8217;s Matchmaking playlist update: We got a new King! Since Team Regicide has performed spectacularly (TWtQS), it&#8217;s sticking around for another week. So is SWAT, of course. Unfortunately that means one playlist has to say goodbye. Actually, it just has to say &#8220;See you later&#8221; because it will undoubtedly be back. Leaving temporarily is King of the Hill (wipes away a single tear) and taking its place is Crimson DLC.

It does show up from time to time in Crimson DLC, I think. Not too sure, though.
 
Completely off topic... went out to a party last night and got absolutely hammered. Started rambling on as I usually do in such situations and basically told 20+ people that I liked a girl... who was there... as was her ex. This morning I acted like I didn't remember anything, but the ~40min car ride home with her was pretty odd.

Never drinking again.

But... nothing better then a day at home playing some Halo. Might give Halo 3 a go I think. BTB is always fun

Should have stuck to small talk.
 
Can I make a humble request for Halo 5?

PLEASE bring this emblem back (or something similar):
s9dCF.png


It's the best thing I miss from Reach :(

Thanks in advance, 343 emblem overlord. <3

--

I'm late to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDfpCU7eqwA

But motherofgod.jpg

Bring on next-gen.

I play Skyrim on my PC with about 50 mods now, just got back into it. Honestly, this game is so malleable it's crazy. Love TES and Bethesda for that. That's pretty much what my game looks like, though I think mine looks better ;)
 

OverHeat

« generous god »
FU 343i and your stupid netcode some game all my shoot register other I can not land a headshot even if I have a fucking hitmarker my NAT is open I have a fiber to home 50/50....
 
343 Industries - SNIP -

What you post is literally just a means to your own end with little to no positive input, it's all negative to prove a point. Which is a waste of time to read for myself and I'm guessing the developers too.

I understand what low population does, I understand what it's like to have your beloved settings changed and have to play what you consider a lesser or more random game. I have lived with all the cheaters/grief from Halo 2, the community decline of objective since mid-life Halo 3, a further decline in objective to almost nil with Reach but now I'm actually happy to play 343i version of CTF or Infinity etc because it actually restored population from the community and got them wanting to plat CTF over say KOTH or oddball or even slayer for example. It also got me playing slayer which was never my preferred playlist at all either. So they are doing some things right, just not by you it seems.

I just read you making statements to suit your outcome mate. Sure there are consumers unhappy but they are far outweighed by happy consumers. If your logic was correct that no one wants AA's or specialisations then the sales wouldn't have topped Reach and Halo 3 in the first week by selling literally millions of copies. The reviews for the most part wouldn't have been 80-95 on average. Reach would have scared everyone away and no one would have bought or returned for Halo 4, that clearly is not the case.

Further look at the history of matchmaking percentages of what playlists were/are popular. Grifball and Infection/Flood/Living Dead have consistently equalled or exceeded MLG or hardcore playlists every time for many years and even since the late days of Halo 3 I might add. Take a look in the Halo 4 playlists and you'll see infinity slayer is more popular than slayer pro by a large margin, same for BTB infinity, same for Flood. What does that tell you? The majority don't care for your classic settings. Now combine all playlists that aren't classic and you'll see it's a landslide for casual players over hardcore with respect to Halo settings.

Most hardcore even write off the Waypoint forums as "noobs or tryhards" simply because they like the default game. Again just your means to an end.

Granted settings are to be tweaked and bugs to be fixed but then look at the Reach TU and all those anniversary map packs or Halo 2 or Halo 3 they've all had their share of changes and TU's. The same splintered from within hardcore crowd can't even decide on a universal setting let alone actually like what a series of Halo developers put in front of them across Halo 3, Reach & Halo 4 as well. Look at MLG H3, look at MLG Reach, look at TU Anniversary & maps and now look towards more 343i managing more frequent playlists, cycling and confirmation of reworking slayer pro to be more competitive. The fact is the developers are trying to please a part of the population that loves classic but literally that crowd doesn't have a consensus setting and are notoriously a very difficult crowd to please. They are also a minority when looking at the larger scope of Halo.

Also the population started to leave en masse in the late life of Halo 3, it's more to do with the FPS competition landscape and player fatigue on the franchise. Further statistics are calculated differently and once again Halo 4 is still #2 on the XBL charts. Fuck me what more do you want? Everyone to love your exact Halo multiplayer single setting, play nothing else and always be #1 by a landslide. Seriously it's not as bad as you make out at all.

Further you can always hop on Halo 3 for your fix or a modded custom game, again those numbers are not as high as you claim. None of the statistics you ever post include customs, SPOPS, campaign, coop etc either so perhaps you're missing a large gap of player numbers and choose to ignore the XBL charts of #2 when these other game modes are taken into account.

Sure the studio had its hands full and the game came to a crunch period. Do you not realise this happens on just about all games? The designers and developers love to push, advance and bite off more than they can chew in the interest of ground breaking or feature rich games. Smaller studios have the same issues too. Look at Bungie with CE nearly losing multiplayer all together or Halo 2 where they literally split the game off with a cliff-hanger and then made Halo 3 or Halo 3 and all the cheaters and bugs etc. Clearly you do not work in a developer/designer capacity or just choose to ignore such commonality in the game development industry and game release results. Just look at your beloved speed runs and the amount of glitches/game faults that get exploited. It's code and it's going to have bugs that require iterative approaches as well as consumer patches for player satisfaction.

Honestly you need to chill the fuck out with your personal agenda for Halo. 343i already acknowledged a reworking of Slayer Pro and I'm sure they'll support a MLG playlist. Most likely part of the waiting for the new classic playlist is to allow time for the MLG playlist/settings to mature so 343i can decide which or both playlists to go with and with what settings.

For the postitive side; what did I do throughout those years that my loved objective declined? I got vocal and constructive on the B.net & Waypoint forums. Personally I contributed to the Halo 3 objective playlist thread as much as I could and even helped with the return of Team Throwback in Halo 3, then what happened? The community just didn't want to play objective no matter how many settings got tweaked or playlists got rotated.

It's a harsh reality when the community doesn't want to play your preferred map or your settings etc but that's why I champion my filters and toggles version of matchmaking so the minority don't get outvoted or cut from development process as much.

For the record I do holistically support the hardcode/classic ideal that the developer should allow customisation to drop flags, no waypoints, toggle instant spawn, tweak spawns etc etc. Those lacking features or old classic settings are dropping the ball but after the change in the FPS landscape and declining population of Halo multiplayer in general since late Halo 3 plus the clusterfuck that was Reach pre/post TU it was time for drastic moves by the Halo developers. 343i had the courage to do what was required, they also have the business sense to support what they built. It's XMAS for fuck sake and they're on holiday, expect more early next year. Take that as you will.

343i have done great work in reducing the playlists and creating more uniform game settings between playlists. Now they just need to bug fix, bring in some custom settings or Forge tweaks, get some smaller/cleaner maps for competitives and fix up incomplete features. I fully expect with a full "practised studio" and Halo 5 the level of AI, features and game engine abilities in general are going to far exceed what Halo 4 or Reach ever could with the old xbox 360 hardware.

As for outsourcing you're missing the point, all of you. They outsource to the best and most experienced for each field. Take a look at the CGI quality, the right company and skills got hired. Take a look at the map pack and the same company and personnel that have been working at Bungie or outsourced by Bungie have been hired. Take a look at the engine. Take a look at the physics, take a look at the BINK video. I actually congratulate them for realising they are a new studio and certain parts of the game or engine should be handled by those who are the experts.
 

JB1981

Member
wow just never played a halo game with this much noobish bullshit. fucking boltshot campers in team regicide on adrift make me want to break my controller in half. seriously fuck this game. boltshot abuse is fucking rampant now. cunt game. cunt players. and every other game tonight warps and lags like a bitch.
 

FyreWulff

Member
It's not a personal agenda when it's fairly obvious the game came in hot. We're still missing actual file searching and file shares, a feature that works right now in Reach. On 343's servers. That doesn't work in a game based off the Reach code.



lol Reach and Halo 3 updates are never happening. It never happened before, ain't gonna happen now.
 
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