The skill to pull of a BXR was relatively low; how to do it is in the name.
The skill of BXR'ing came from situation preparedness, awareness, and reaction time.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo |OT16| Oh Bungie, Where Art Thou?
- Thread starter Booties
- Start date
- Status
The skill to pull of a BXR was relatively low; how to do it is in the name.
The skill of BXR'ing came from situation preparedness, awareness, and reaction time.
Ok, that's fine. I'm just saying you can't really knock him for that piece. He's just doing his job.
That still doesn't make sense to me. It has nothing to do with where the actions are mapped on the physical controller. Since we can't compare it to Borderlands, lets compare it to another Halo game. BXR wasn't only a glitch on default controls, it was a glitch across all control scheme's because it had to do with the actual animations and action overrides, like you said. Even when you switched control schemes, the glitch was still there, just on the new buttons. That means it has nothing to do with what button each action is mapped to. Which would lead me to the conclusion that glitches would be no less problematic with mappable controls, since it's not the button location or specific button sequence that matters, but the actual actions themselves.
It's probably because they want to have everyone start on a level playing field with the same controller layouts as other players.
Of course it takes skill. Basically any activity takes some skill. Furthermore, there were people doing advanced things with it. The issue isn't skill, so much as visibility. People who don't know about it are at a significant and "inexplicable" disadvantage.
Just like how I don't know if my opponent has Hardlight Shield, Active Camo, or Thruster Pack equipped?
gAg CruSh3r
Member
Eh, I did not like it to much. The true skill comes when you know how to 4 shot a BR.
No, those objects and abilities are all available to everyone. And that lack of information is symmetrical. You don't know how many bullets an opponent has either. You don't know if Ryu is going to throw a fireball or a hurricane kick, you react based on which one he does.
BXR and stuff like backpack reloading was "an easter egg" of sorts. If everyone knew how to do it, it would have been less of an issue. It's also "invisible" - unlike a power up.
There's a perfectly good argument however that "eventually" everyone will figure this stuff out, but it's dangerous to assume everyone is an expert, or even well-informed. The vast majority of game players don't read forums or participate in community discussions. They just play.
Plus it was far too beneficial for the skill it took. You could insta-kill players within melee range (which was also effing huge in Halo 2) with a simple button combo.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
I know whats coming, they're just going to tell you how just by seeing Ryu on screen you'll know what "equipment" he has.
I get the argument...if this was a sport. But its a video game so Ive got no problems with trying to make it more accessible. As long as it tries to innovate.
If a player picks Ryu, I know he has a fireball, a shoryuken, and a hurricane kick at his disposal, and I can play him accordingly.
A player playing Ryu isn't going to randomly have access to E. Honda's hundred hand slap.
I can thus predict the playstyle and attempt to read the Ryu I'm playing, learning his tendencies.
In Halo 4, though, the player can not only have access to a different preset loadout every spawn, he can edit those loadouts fully at any point during a match.
Obviously certain playlists limit that ability, as seen in Team Throwdown, but in the Infinity hoppers, there's no way I can predict what an enemy will have one spawn to the next.
I don't know if Ryu is going to throw a fireball or a hurricane kick out, but I know he can throw a fireball or hurricane kick out.
In the playlists that allow full loadout options and on the fly edits to loadouts, there's no way I can predict or react to that prediction because there's no way of even having an educated guess as to what the player will have spawned with.
And as a side note, in Halo 2, I learned not to chase BR wielders around corners, because regardless of if they knew about BXR or not, I predicted its use; it was an option for them that would result in me being punished.
It's all good though. <3
Why does everyone need to know? Everyone doesn't know every jump on each level. Everyone doesn't know that strafing with your opponent makes it easier to hit them. Hell, there are people out there who don't even know that headshots do more damage to unshielded opponents with precisions weapons. It's these discrepencies in individual knowledge and ability that make the game fun to play, that add variety and spice to each game.
Sure, if you had no way to rank and seperate players this could be an issue in an online arena, but we don't have that issue. We can easily seperate and rank players. In fact, its even MORE easy when you have a larger skill-gap, which ensures that everyone plays with players on equal footing (more or less).
A lot of players are exactly like you described; they just play. So why do we need to dumb the game down to them when they really don't even care? Why do we need to remove the hidden intricacies if it doesn't matter one way or another to them?
YourExWife
Member
OK, I'm likely going to get heat for this from you or someone else here, but I have to comment as this annoys me every time it's brought up.
@thebold: SO WHAT? What on earth does the action that cancels the animation/causes the glitch have to do with the button on the controller that maps to that action? This does not now nor has it ever made sense to me.
An example of why this seems ludicrous: When people talk about button glitches and Halo, the most recent obvious topic is Halo 2 (although 3/Reach/4 have all had some, however minor or impactful). In Halo 2, there's the infamous "BXR" glitch, where one presses B to melee, X to cancel the animation early, and right trigger to fire their weapon. This is using the default button layout. I have a friend who used Green Thumb, mostly because he's crazy. For him, melee is performed by clicking the thumbstick. I guess that means he can't perform the BXR glitch, right?
WRONG! It works just fine, even though the buttons are completely different. So what's the difference between using B, the bumpers, thumbsticks, whatever, to perform the actions required in game (aiming aside)? Is there an *actual* reason Halo games can't do this?
If the reason is honestly as simple as "It wasn't a priority and we couldn't get to it" (because there is work involved in making the interface), I would be just fine with that. But dodging the question by saying that 2 FPS's aren't comparable just because they use a different engine (which, again, has nothing to do with the buttons you press and how that info is fed to the 360), or saying "glitches bad" doesn't cut it.
I'm not coming out in favor of more button glitches. I'm not even taking a side in that debate because I lean both ways and that's a legitimate discussion. My issue is, since we can demonstrably show that the button itself has nothing to do with the action performed, what's the problem? As a technically proficient person with experience with systems with many more inputs than a simple 360 controller, I almost feel insulted by this logic that you present on the subject.
EDIT: To clarify, my question is regarding custom controls, not the current glitch debate.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
And what hidden intricacies are removed?
This is quite a good post.
I still think the key to making games accessible and fun for all is having a good matchmaking system. You don't have to make a game easy to play for noobs to have fun. They'll be matched with other noobs who can't play that well either. Look at StarCraft 2. The learning curve and skill gap in that game is astronomical. However, it doesn't mean there aren't terrible players who play the game regularly and have fun.
Matchmaking.
edit: Also, was I the only one who used to hit B to melee and then pressed X+R at the same time to get the auto reload? And the grenade reload glitch was probably the most useful glitch I used in Halo 2. I have a nice no animation grenade throw I use in H4. Shit is pretty useful.
Matchmaking.
edit: Also, was I the only one who used to hit B to melee and then pressed X+R at the same time to get the auto reload? And the grenade reload glitch was probably the most useful glitch I used in Halo 2. I have a nice no animation grenade throw I use in H4. Shit is pretty useful.
Regarding what? I'm not specifically talking about BXR, I'm addressing the "problem" of asymetrical knowledge.
Lets throw out an example. A lot of people didn't know about crouch jumping in Halo CE. Other people didn't know about grenade jumping either. Even less people thought to combine the two. However, some people did, and it added a new facet to Prisoner, for example. Just because everyone didn't know about crouch-grenade jumping from the bottom floor up to PR healthpack to surprise an OS player who thought you were down low doesn't mean it was unfair or a problem. It added an intricacy to the game. If you remove grenade jumping or crouch jumping because not everyone knows about them, it removes that intricacy.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Nope, its done the same way they do it in the SP part of the games. By easing players into the games features. Not throwing everything at them all at once.
Example, hop online for first time: No AAs, no equipement. Just regular slayer. Play 5 games like that. 6th game, put in a or some AAs, etc etc. Problem solved.
InvisibleKnight
Neo Member
I think Frankie wasn't talking about predictability on the playing field at all. He was saying that everyone has the same visible options in loadouts and then they make a choice. So in the end you DO know what your opponent's options are, you just don't know which ones he has chosen or will choose on respawn. It's like saying if BXR combo was in the manual (or a sort of perk you enable) it would have been fine because everyone would know about it and eventually decide to use it or not. I didn't know devs were kinda ok with BXR.
The Henery
Member
Seen your name defamed on youtube a few times. That red tearstone, parry riposte next to the bonfire in the Depths was the best thing I've seen in DS pvp (Ram can post the slurp gif if he wants!)
Rickenslacker
Banned
Spoilers THE ACTUAL MONSTERS ARE PEOPLE
xxjuicesxx
Member
Good point Exwife, that was the caveat that I mentioned when I made the bet with whoever about the button mapping and glitches in Borderland 2.
The glitch had to be able to be performed on a alternative mapping scheme and that it couldnt be performed on the default scheme. So you could kind of conclude hey its the button mapping thats the problem and not the engine and how the button actions interact with the engine.
The glitch Stalker mentioned can be performed on many schemes and the default scheme, meaning its more an engine/gameplay glitch that was overlooked than something the mapping caused. A good example is I can doubleshot on Halo 2 Vista with just my G5 Mouse. So how is mapping buttons going to make that better or worse...its not!
Let us button map!
---
Also good job Frankie on acknowledging button combo glitches required skill.
However, I wish Halo would have embraced the dubshot and BXR into general gameplay. Tutorial or something.
The glitch had to be able to be performed on a alternative mapping scheme and that it couldnt be performed on the default scheme. So you could kind of conclude hey its the button mapping thats the problem and not the engine and how the button actions interact with the engine.
The glitch Stalker mentioned can be performed on many schemes and the default scheme, meaning its more an engine/gameplay glitch that was overlooked than something the mapping caused. A good example is I can doubleshot on Halo 2 Vista with just my G5 Mouse. So how is mapping buttons going to make that better or worse...its not!
Let us button map!
---
Also good job Frankie on acknowledging button combo glitches required skill.
However, I wish Halo would have embraced the dubshot and BXR into general gameplay. Tutorial or something.
link?
Oh Button combo discussion? We haven't had one for a long time.
And I get what U4ix tries to say, and I also hate loadouts but this is reaching and wasn't Frankie's point IMO.
Never had problems with Button combos.
And just finished a SWAT match where I went 40/13... everyone else in my team was negative .. one was 1/12. But we won. Skill matching
And I get what U4ix tries to say, and I also hate loadouts but this is reaching and wasn't Frankie's point IMO.
Never had problems with Button combos.
And just finished a SWAT match where I went 40/13... everyone else in my team was negative .. one was 1/12. But we won. Skill matching
You mean in StarCraft 2? Yea, you can learn the mechanics of the game in Campaign like in Halo. However, I skipped the StarCraft 2 campaigns completely. There are units and things you do in campaign that aren't in MP. Also, the game recognizes new accounts and lets you play in up to 50 "practice" matches. The game runs at a slower speed and the maps are a little different. I was advised to skip it because it was too different from the real MP. I'm sure a lot of people have used it though. That however is just another form of matchmaking. It's the noobiest playlist of them all. Halo 3 I believe had a playlist similar to that where you could only play in the playlist if you had fewer than a certain amount of games played. That should come back.
The point I'm making is that the game is still very difficult to play but serves players across all skill levels. They didn't compromise the skill ceiling to make the game more accessible like Halo has over the years. You can make the game difficult to learn and master as long as matchmaking does its job.
User 73706
Banned
kylej am cry
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Like super jumping in Halo2? Nobody used that shit fairly. Every time i saw it happen in 2, it was a guy on blood gulch with a sniper rifle really high on the side rocks part of the maps. Most people used that shit to get an unfair advantage over the other team.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Ya but thats what im saying, keep what Halo4 MP does now, with the waypoints pointing the players in the right directions and all at first, but after a certain number of games online have it turn off. Like that they fucking know how to play and it doesnt stay that way forever.
Obviously there is a limit as to what is acceptable. The game was not designed to accomodate something as extreme as super jumping. The issue there is not the discrepency of knowledge, but that it allowed players to break the level.
The Real Napsta
Member
You could get up there legit with a ghost or spectre though.
The Real Napsta
Member
Use Firefox mobile. loads this page no problem
Pop
Member
Firefox master race
Garrett 2U
Member
I'll take super jumping over Jetpack every damn time.
Hell I'll even take the modders who made themselves fly over jetpacks.
At least back then flying was considered overpowered in Halo.
...and 49/50 games there was nobody flying.
But I guess it is fair if everyone has a fly button, right?
(If they have it unlocked, if they have a class with it set, if they are using that class)
Hell I'll even take the modders who made themselves fly over jetpacks.
At least back then flying was considered overpowered in Halo.
...and 49/50 games there was nobody flying.
But I guess it is fair if everyone has a fly button, right?
(If they have it unlocked, if they have a class with it set, if they are using that class)
Rickenslacker
Banned
To go back to the fighting game parallels, Super Jumps have happened there more than once and unlike a lot of other accepted glitches, these were not tolerated. So it's really up to discretion as to what should or shouldn't be kept.
Orochinagis
Member
I am legend. ?
Yup.
I do remember a popular Halo 2 mod where you would spawn above the center of Sanctuary while the host would stand underneath every spawning player shooting them with a rail gun, effectively.
I would like to meet that young man one day and ask him about it.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Ok but if we're talking about how players selecting equipment and guns gives players an unfair advantage while in a match, then stuff like this does the exact same thing.
Most people did not know how to do those super jumps or grenade jump things without vising forums and such or being straight up told. Thats not technically "fair" and its just as random as giving players the choice to select their load outs. If the arguments is that the game now isn't fair, then it should apply to all aspects of the game.
This is offensive.
YourExWife
Member
You're looking at just the asymetrical aspect of it; there are more metrics at play here. My original point was that removing something soley based on the fact that it may not be universally known is a bad approach. I'm not saying X should be stay or go simply based on asymetry of knowledge, but a variety of factors. I AM saying that nothing should be removed simply because it may be asymetrically known or applied.
I fixed it so I don't have to answer.
YourExWife
Member
This is the best answer you've yet given. You're getting there.
Silly.Mikey
Banned
Well that's what the arguments in here are about 95% of the time. Too random not asymmetrical enough. But give them a grenade jump that most people don't know about and thats fine.
But yes i agree that removing stuff that is not known is not necessarily a good approach. Which is why they've put more indicators on screen in MP me thinks. To try and help.
The Henery
Member
That's the one. Love the guys reaction.
- Status