Oh god, I totally forgot that map existed. It was actually a nice GL map though, lots of walls nicely placed to bounce grenades around corners. Terrible otherwise though.
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Halo |OT19| 793 Posts, And None Worth Reading
- Thread starter Ozzy Onya A2Z
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Oh god, I totally forgot that map existed. It was actually a nice GL map though, lots of walls nicely placed to bounce grenades around corners. Terrible otherwise though.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Your mother's next, punk.
Nonsense that could've been fixed with some better placement and more focus in design/combat flow.
So let's disregard the years of fans being disregarded for no apparent reason other than the crazy excuses and obvious lies they (Bungie/343) have come up with? What else do we have to go on other than what we see and hear?? Blind faith?
Why do some of you keep mentioning that about CE? I don't want a remade CE with the same old engine.. that would obviously be a mistake.
You're judging me as if I'm this super competitive guy who wants to shit on bad kids all day.. "Balance around the average player," but isn't that what most people here are saying is a bad idea because you limit a game's depth? Also, who the hell was complaining about this shit from 2001-2004?
No one. People were enjoying the shit out of that game and the next should've built from the foundation that those weapons built.
Again, there were a shit ton of improvements made after CE and many areas of CE that I personally disliked (Rocket abuse, as I pointed out in my thread). How about you stop putting words in my mouth and depicting me in this image of some super tryhard when I don't even play Halo like that most of the time.. I drive the Warthog like a CHAMPION, thank you.
Yeah so what I go from typing serious posts to acting childish.. Get over it or ignore me.
Anything else?
EDIT: I should also point out how I don't aggressively insult any of you guys like some of you do to others around here. How about you grow up kiddo B]
What facts? The Grenade Launcher was too difficult to use so no one used it? That could easily be fixed by having it be the focus on some maps, and maybe a little tutorial in the game on each weapon's unique roles.
Feels like that OddOne situation..
Steelyuhas
Member
DLC in Halo?
YourExWife
Member
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Only the non-classic version.
2 shotguns
2 pro pipes
1 rocket launcher
1 snipe
26 plasma launchers
Added. Get BF4.
Speedy Blue Dude
Banned
Added.
Enjoy your PS4!What's your PSN Kittens? I wouldn't mind adding you as well.
not even gonna lie, i really liked the cage. jetpack just made it a shitter.
people just thought the nade launcher sucked because of how easy the rockets were to use
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
I think the 'nade Launcher could've had a larger blast radius, especially when comparing it to the Rocket. Maybe that's another reason people didn't use it too much; it required some finesse.
Either way, I'd like for it to return but combining the traits of the Sticky Detonator:
- Hold RT for Grenade Launcher traits
- Press RT for Sticky Detonator traits (press again to detonate)
I liked the grenade launcher, required more skill than others and had that great EMP ability. If I check Bungie.net for Halo Reach, I used it to get kills almost as much as needler, but FAR more than I used concussion rifle, plasma launcher, spartan laser, fuel rod gun, focus rifle.
I didn't play Reach too much, with a lot of play declining after Bungie Day 2011. I only remember it on powerhouse, boneyard, spire, swordbase and some forge BTB maps.
I didn't play Reach too much, with a lot of play declining after Bungie Day 2011. I only remember it on powerhouse, boneyard, spire, swordbase and some forge BTB maps.
Such a beautiful post. You sir, are a king among men.
Needs to be in the OP and every new page.
A couple of things.
It really bothers me when a multiplayer game is criticized for having too big of a skill gap. It's a joke, actually. The frustration surrounding players getting utterly destroyed should be aimed towards the game's matchmaking systems, not the game itself. StarCraft II, a game with a way bigger skill gap than CE, balances the game around the very best players but the game is fun for everyone because the ranking system works. The same can be said about Dota 2 and LoL. Trying to find the average player to balance the game around is what got us into this mess in the first place. You need skilled players to test the game as well. Reading that Reach beta interview was extremely revealing. It showed us how the people testing Reach were pretty bad at the game and it took an 'Armor Locking prodigy' (lol) in the studio to show them that AL was OP as fuck. AL may have been a lot worse were it not for that one tester. The reason a high skill gap game like CE gives people an impression of being unfriendly to unskilled players is because *surprise* there were no fucking matchmaking systems in the first place. Thankfully there is some hope to be had with H5. Not only do we have one of the most skilled Halo 3 players of all time testing the game -- we also have one of the designers of SC2's ranking system. Neighbor and Josh Menke respectively. Here's to hoping H5 doesn't suck.
edit: And UNKNOWN, the whole "removing fun" thing did sound very childish. You can phrase your thoughts better than that.
The grenade launcher is often used as a shield dropper so I'm not sure how revealing that data is. What Tashi said. Having said that I don't doubt that the GL wasn't often used and it probably has more to do with map placement than with the weapon itself being poorly designed or ineffective.
A common straw man I see on this forum is people assuming that the "CE purist crowd" simply wants the old CE brought back with little to no change aside from maybe graphics. Let's be fair to them and put that one to rest, especially since people like UNKNOWN and BigShow have repeatedly said they don't want a copy-and-paste game. The CE engine is outdated as hell and anyone who wants that back is insane. And for the record I also think the main utility weapon in the game should not be projectile based.
You act as if networking options, zoom, bloom, and spread are the only ways to limit a weapon's effectiveness. I don't know how you can forget things like aim assist/bullet magnetism, hitbox size, movement factors, and last but not least map design.
It really bothers me when a multiplayer game is criticized for having too big of a skill gap. It's a joke, actually. The frustration surrounding players getting utterly destroyed should be aimed towards the game's matchmaking systems, not the game itself. StarCraft II, a game with a way bigger skill gap than CE, balances the game around the very best players but the game is fun for everyone because the ranking system works. The same can be said about Dota 2 and LoL. Trying to find the average player to balance the game around is what got us into this mess in the first place. You need skilled players to test the game as well. Reading that Reach beta interview was extremely revealing. It showed us how the people testing Reach were pretty bad at the game and it took an 'Armor Locking prodigy' (lol) in the studio to show them that AL was OP as fuck. AL may have been a lot worse were it not for that one tester. The reason a high skill gap game like CE gives people an impression of being unfriendly to unskilled players is because *surprise* there were no fucking matchmaking systems in the first place. Thankfully there is some hope to be had with H5. Not only do we have one of the most skilled Halo 3 players of all time testing the game -- we also have one of the designers of SC2's ranking system. Neighbor and Josh Menke respectively. Here's to hoping H5 doesn't suck.
edit: And UNKNOWN, the whole "removing fun" thing did sound very childish. You can phrase your thoughts better than that.
Yeah I agree with that though I never saw someone saying we need completely bring everything back, when I hear let's go back to CE style I think of the gameplay and Sandbox.
I don't want the engine of it back, don't want the netcode, don't want some glitches bacl, don't want undestroyable vehicles back.
And of course we can't reskin any halo game because all of them have their flaws.
I like Karl and know what he's getting at and I believe Duji and co can express it better than me, but he forgets important points(like Duji said Aim assist and co)
I also don't get his comparision between Reach's DMR and 4's BR, exactly both weapons are too strong because of aim assist over distance, not because of their zoom or anything or netcode. Also maps are a big point why a weapon is bad in its game.
And on the grenade launcher I have to agree it went because it was underused, but like already said it was on only a few maps. Only MLG pushed it well.
I may have misinterpreted some stuff since my English isn't that well, forgive me if this is the case
Just be better at English. Easy enough!
Both Karl and Duji make excellent and valid points. The thing with Karls post is that it does not nullify the opinions for the return of the pistol, but puts a harsh spotlight on glaring issues that have to be taken into account when discussing that specific subject. If you want to be taken seriously you have to look at both sides of the issueif you only look in one direction, arguments become almost comical or even borderline irrational.
BigShow and Duji are one the few posters that gets that aspect when discussing the CE pistol, so their arguments feel much more rational, grounded and thought out. They make solid arguments, which do not feel like they are too full of themselves or try to drown out criticisms.
This is wonderful:
This is nothing:
Basically said: La, la, la, I am not hearing any of that.
The Henery
Member
Two things:
1) The Grenade Launcher wasn't removed because it was objectively underused. It was removed because it didn't make Halo more accessible and it didn't help new players find success and was thus supplanted by the comparatively nuance-less Sticky Detonator.
2) By what metric was it underused? Kills? Its capacity to EMP vehicles formed a central part of its function; in that sense it is largely a support weapon, one which lays the ground work for other weapons (commonly a Plasma Grenade) to reap the glory of the all important Waypoint kill stat. By this rationale should the Plasma Pistol be retired because it doesn't chart highly in the fragging scoreboard? Or should we make that a weapon we can spawn with(!)? How about the needler? The frickin Concussion Rifle made it through, a weapon which from my own empirical experience didn't proportionally account for many kills amongst the playerbase, if for no other reason than its low ammo count. Yet it is drearily straightforward to grasp its firing nature - shoot bomb in straight line, blow up bad guy - and so is present in Halo 4 (hilariously featuring in the final kill to decide a two hundred odd grand competition).
And as others have noted, it hardly featured on Reach's map set. When it did appear, it was often placed in obscure or especially dangerous locations which skewed the risk/reward balance for the weapon. I've heard the callout for its position on Powerhouse referred to as 'the rape shower' (enclosed box with only one entry combined with Reach's nuclear grenades and low jump height). Highlands was one of the first maps we got in the post-Bungie 343 age. They saw fit to gift players old favourites like the Rocket Launcher and Sniper Rifle at the opening spawn location in the base (lol at incentivising map movement). They placed a shotgun at each teleporter to accomodate brainless crouch loitering, reducing the distance to zero between the power weapon and its optimum position of use. The middle of the map was a wasteland, players who dared to tread there eviscerated by the savvy folks on its elevated periphery prescribing a quick death with the games 3x scope, hitscan DMR. Where did 343/CA place the Grenade Launcher? Dead centre of the bowl of death, hidden under a wreck. Objectively underused indeed.
1) The Grenade Launcher wasn't removed because it was objectively underused. It was removed because it didn't make Halo more accessible and it didn't help new players find success and was thus supplanted by the comparatively nuance-less Sticky Detonator.
2) By what metric was it underused? Kills? Its capacity to EMP vehicles formed a central part of its function; in that sense it is largely a support weapon, one which lays the ground work for other weapons (commonly a Plasma Grenade) to reap the glory of the all important Waypoint kill stat. By this rationale should the Plasma Pistol be retired because it doesn't chart highly in the fragging scoreboard? Or should we make that a weapon we can spawn with(!)? How about the needler? The frickin Concussion Rifle made it through, a weapon which from my own empirical experience didn't proportionally account for many kills amongst the playerbase, if for no other reason than its low ammo count. Yet it is drearily straightforward to grasp its firing nature - shoot bomb in straight line, blow up bad guy - and so is present in Halo 4 (hilariously featuring in the final kill to decide a two hundred odd grand competition).
And as others have noted, it hardly featured on Reach's map set. When it did appear, it was often placed in obscure or especially dangerous locations which skewed the risk/reward balance for the weapon. I've heard the callout for its position on Powerhouse referred to as 'the rape shower' (enclosed box with only one entry combined with Reach's nuclear grenades and low jump height). Highlands was one of the first maps we got in the post-Bungie 343 age. They saw fit to gift players old favourites like the Rocket Launcher and Sniper Rifle at the opening spawn location in the base (lol at incentivising map movement). They placed a shotgun at each teleporter to accomodate brainless crouch loitering, reducing the distance to zero between the power weapon and its optimum position of use. The middle of the map was a wasteland, players who dared to tread there eviscerated by the savvy folks on its elevated periphery prescribing a quick death with the games 3x scope, hitscan DMR. Where did 343/CA place the Grenade Launcher? Dead centre of the bowl of death, hidden under a wreck. Objectively underused indeed.
Abridged was the only BTB map where it was decently placed, originally in the tunnel it meant that you could pick it up without dying. There is probably one on that half of boneyard that was never used because no one looked over there to get it.
The proverbial skill gap is pretty much non existent. In stead we are left with easy to use weapons that require little skill. Why was the needle rifle removed? That wasn't difficult to use plus it was unique in several aspects as well unlike the DMR.
MrGreencastle
Member
I don't know about CE weaponset coming back or whatever, but I don't think that people not using it much is a very good reason for not keeping the GL in the game. I find it unique and fun to use, and mostly better than the Sticky Detonator anyway.
Also, just because it isn't getting many kills doesn't necessarily mean people aren't using it (not that I'm arguing that it was less popular) - it's harder to use than most weapons with it's projectile arc and bouncing capabilities, has limited ammo on most maps, and has a very useful secondary EMP function that doesn't even kill anyway (not to mention non-sticky "planting"). These are the types of weapons that vary the sandbox and lead to more interesting encounters overall. In my view, taking it out because it was less popular is the same kind of thinking that lead to all the Forerunner weapons - which in my opinion had all the potential in the world for being unique and interesting - into being basically just grey and orange versions of the UNSC sandbox.
Fuck the haters. Propipe was the shit.
Edit: yeah, basically what The Henery said. Poetry, man.
Also, just because it isn't getting many kills doesn't necessarily mean people aren't using it (not that I'm arguing that it was less popular) - it's harder to use than most weapons with it's projectile arc and bouncing capabilities, has limited ammo on most maps, and has a very useful secondary EMP function that doesn't even kill anyway (not to mention non-sticky "planting"). These are the types of weapons that vary the sandbox and lead to more interesting encounters overall. In my view, taking it out because it was less popular is the same kind of thinking that lead to all the Forerunner weapons - which in my opinion had all the potential in the world for being unique and interesting - into being basically just grey and orange versions of the UNSC sandbox.
Fuck the haters. Propipe was the shit.
Edit: yeah, basically what The Henery said. Poetry, man.
Needle Rifle replaced the Carbine, which then replaced the Needle rifle. Something about the timelines and stuff with Reach being a prequel.
The main reason for streamlining the sandbox and not throwing everything we've seen in past halos in Halo 4 was because of memory constraints. I'm not an expert by any means on the subject though, and I could be entirely wrong. Uh, call it a guess.
Probably more about the worlds internet being pretty crap in general.
squidhands
Member
nope, that was from a guy named Cosmic Rick.Pretty sure this was Ghaleons gif... but yeah, Brute Chopper <3
Seriously, it was the best damned vehicle.
Mmm. I'm not entirely knowledgeable on networking, but BF3/4 uses about 40MB/hour down and 20MB/hour up - the same as most other online games out there. Including Halo 3/Reach/ODST/4, IIRC. I understand that in a P2P environment it's extremely unreliable - Halo 3 is a testament to this. But we've got dedicated servers now. I dunno
*shrugs*
Was that mister Utah Mambo/Kentucky Tango?
If people aren't getting kills with the weapons, they aren't going to use the weapons. I highly doubt that all the disparity in kills is because people were exclusively stripping shields with it.
Not disagreeing that I think 343's understandable desire for a used sandbox led to less interesting weapons in many cases; merely that I don't think you have any reason to call out their assertion that the propipe was vastly underused.
I personally don't get why everyone wants every weapon to constantly return. Give me a focused multiplayer sandbox with less overlap any day.
And the Needle Rifle was a poor replacement for the Carbine in multiplayer and not worth picking up in campaign on higher difficulties.
Grenade Launcher had a lot of uses though while maintaining some kind of skill curve to being able to use it effectively.
I'm not going to deny it wasn't used a massive amount but I will say that it had shitty placement on Powerhouse.
Oh also. Plasma pistol completely nullifies your first point.
I can't argue with that most of the time it wasn't worth picking up I'd use it instead of the AR in reach, as for campaign I used it on exodus and that's about it. It was an interesting concept if it did return I've no ideals how to fix it (0 bloom with it was great) apart from completely overhauling it.
That makes no sense what so ever it was replaced by the weapon it replaced lol. Aren't the games the overriding source for Canon or has that changed with 4 was kinda related to the books.
Be my teacher. I will gift you an apple.
Yeah I get that of course both sides are not wrong nor are they the only correct side.
But funk also made well detailed posts in the past
don't be so harsh.And Henery again with a good post, well done.
Now whogot Tashi's Spartan assault? I need someone for coop
MrGreencastle
Member
I wasn't saying it wasn't underused, which is why in the first sentence I wrote: "not that I'm arguing that it was less popular". I know it was underused (but not necessarily because it was a bad weapon). I'm saying that's not a good reason to get rid of a weapon. I do question using kills as a method to deduce weapon use, though. Hold time is probably the only reliable method, but I don't think that exists yet. Support-type weapons/functionality are OK. Plasma pistol exists and is mostly fine in all Halo games save for 4 when loadouts are in question.
I agree with you on the refined sandbox part. I don't think all weapons should return for the sake of it. However, I think that if you are going to replace something, the new thing should be better, and I think the Sticky Detonator is a shit replacement for the Grenade Launcher, so I lament it's loss.
When Bungie was in charge, games were number 1 when it came to canon. It's actually why so many people were pissed that they essentially ignored tFoR when making Reach's campaign.
343i have them entwined. There shouldn't be any clashes between books and games any more - which I love. The obvious downside to this is that as evidenced by Halo 4, it can be hard to explain everything for those that haven't read the books.
The major issue with the weapon in campaign is it caused every enemy to go into a dodging frenzy even without any skulls on; its only use is in Exodus because there you can at least get enough shots off to supercombine on a Brute, but you could waste entire clips trying to bring down an Elite. Even trying a noob combo was unlikely to have great success.
Leave the supercombine to the Needler where it belongs! (hopefully slightly nerfed to between its Halo 3 and Halo 4 levels of effectiveness in the next game.)
I think you meant "not that I'm arguing that it *was popular*", then. I misunderstood you.
Well, they did fundamentally rewrite parts of the Terminals. I guess you can argue there was plenty of wiggle room there, but the timelines really don't add up. That said the rewrites were fairly paltry compared to entirely nuking the chronology of perhaps the series' most beloved book. I suppose I and many others would have had less issue with it had there been a pressing reason for revising it, or if Reach's story had been a lot better. Silentium was such an awesome franchise-ending finale that I can forgive a lot for it (yeah Dani, the rock-licking cavemen.)
The Real Napsta
Member
Halo CE could work online np
Take Halo CE's:
Movement speed
weapons (and exact weapon stats)
spawns (this is the big one)
Add: Halo 3 or 4's netcode (deciding whether you want projectiles or not)
Would you get the Halo CE on LAN feel exactly? No.
Would you get a Halo game better than 2,3,Reach and 4?
YES.
Take Halo CE's:
Movement speed
weapons (and exact weapon stats)
spawns (this is the big one)
Add: Halo 3 or 4's netcode (deciding whether you want projectiles or not)
Would you get the Halo CE on LAN feel exactly? No.
Would you get a Halo game better than 2,3,Reach and 4?
YES.
MrGreencastle
Member
My bad.
Ragnarok Flames
Banned
Funk says one thing and everyone comes out of the woodwork to shit down his neck...
Call me when the HGS slrp is over.
Call me when the HGS slrp is over.
squidhands
Member
The very same. I always enjoyed seeing his forge creations, and he's a damn fun guy to party up with.
There should be a healthy balance between both the books and the games it should link to the books, but not rely on them to tell the story in the game like halo 4 kinda did.
It did have it's issues in campaign with the AI perception of the projectiles and was only useful against brutes, and as you pointed out awful against elites (surprisingly effective against Kat). I would like a weapon to use the similar firing mechanics with the needler rifle had, but as for the needler itself I prefer the 3 needler for some reason the 4 needler just feels off to me.
Summaries my sandbox hopes really for halo 5.
xxjuicesxx
Member
1. I hope we cant have the the boltshot or a boltshot like weapon in a starting loadout
2. I hope we cant spawn with a plasma pistol in a starting loadout
3. I hope the binary rifle's removed from the game
2. I hope we cant spawn with a plasma pistol in a starting loadout
3. I hope the binary rifle's removed from the game
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
I'm already comfortable with my sexuality and frequent the LGBThread. Admitting you have aproblemserious case of homolycanthropy is the first step to recovery.
...fair enough.
But anyway, I loved the propipe. I was pretty shitty at it when I was first a Reach kid, but near the end of it's life cycle, I actually began to know how to use it properly, and even when I choked with it in games, there was always this thrill of getting an awesome bounce then blowing this dudes brains out, and you would challenge yourself by bouncing it around a corner and hitting some dude you can't see, it was just a fun weapon. I'd love to see it come back, I mean, the sticky detinator is cool I guess and can be fun to use, but nowhere near as exciting or challenging to use as the propipe.
Also, GSO Funk.
<3 u tho
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jr5ASKKbpOE
I loved doing stuff like this with the ProPipe. So satisfying.
I loved doing stuff like this with the ProPipe. So satisfying.
Gabotron ES
Member
What does HGS mean?
I agree 100% with that conclusion. Might as well read the entire thing to see what else they've got to say.
Said this the day it released on W8. Pathetic that they didn't fix it for console release.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
And what the fuck is that, do they suppose? lol
I know, but it's just meaningless fluff for reviewers to write that unless they can explain that.
#GamingJournalism
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