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Halo |OT19| 793 Posts, And None Worth Reading

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O

Orochinagis

Member
kylej said:
Are you going to do a floating floor like Allure? I'm not going to finish my basement any time soon, but I've thought about going with a polished concrete finish to do something different. I have enough hardwood.

polished2.jpg
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i hope the floor isnt slipery as it looks
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Deputy Moonman said:
EDIT:

I'm worn out by 3D. Every 2 or 3 years, a movie will come out where 3D actually compliments the film. But for most films it's just a nuisance to have to wear those uncomfortable 3D glasses. I mess around with my 3ds all the time and rarely have it in 3D.
Click to expand...

Off topic (but when does this thread ever stay on topic all the time?), this pretty much killed the momentum of 3D. Post conversion is terrible, always results in the cardboard cutout effect. Studios wanted to rush content into being 3D capable to cash in as soon as possible, and drove people away from 3D content with shitty 3D.

If the studios had actually bothered to invest in the long haul and only run movies that were show in native 3D, I think it'd still be going. Games have the advantage that as long as it's an N64/GameCube/Wii/WiiU, PS2/PS3/PS4, Xbox/Xbox 360/ Xbox One title, it already has the proper "3D" information included from the start; the polygons it sends to be rendered. Post converted movies have the issue that the original 3D information of the scene is gone forever.

I think 3D will eventually be a standard feature, but that will happen when the glasses-free tech gets to the point that you can cheaply add it to a screen and have a wide viewing angle for it. At that point, nobody will need glasses to view it, so no hassle to use it.

ps the PS1 would actually be harder to easily convert to 3D because it actually did not have a z-buffer. You'd essentially have to remake the game to get good 3D out of a PS1 game.

As an aside, Anniversary's 3D was really good. It was terrible in Crysis 2, your eyes clash with the gun and the crosshair. Black Ops 2 3D was decent, helped by the fact that they actually let you turn off the crosshair which stopped the eyefucking. Nano Assault Neo on the Wii U has really good 3D.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Orochinagis said:
i hope the floor isnt slipery as it looks
Click to expand...
It depends on the treatment, but generally polished concrete is less slippery than it looks. Think of your average office building lobby floor year days and it's probably concrete given the marble-look treatment. Can be an issue if it's wet but otherwise you're fine. I did a section for my old house. Polishing it is a whole lot of fun.
FyreWulff said:
Off topic (but when does this thread ever stay on topic all the time?), this pretty much killed the momentum of 3D. Post conversion is terrible, always results in the cardboard cutout effect. Studios wanted to rush content into being 3D capable to cash in as soon as possible, and drove people away from 3D content with shitty 3D.

If the studios had actually bothered to invest in the long haul and only run movies that were show in native 3D, I think it'd still be going. Games have the advantage that as long as it's an N64/GameCube/Wii/WiiU, PS2/PS3/PS4, Xbox/Xbox 360/ Xbox One title, it already has the proper "3D" information included from the start; the polygons it sends to be rendered. Post converted movies have the issue that the original 3D information of the scene is gone forever.

I think 3D will eventually be a standard feature, but that will happen when the glasses-free tech gets to the point that you can cheaply add it to a screen and have a wide viewing angle for it. At that point, nobody will need glasses to view it, so no hassle to use it.

ps the PS1 would actually be harder to easily convert to 3D because it actually did not have a z-buffer. You'd essentially have to remake the game to get good 3D out of a PS1 game.

As an aside, Anniversary's 3D was really good. It was terrible in Crysis 2, your eyes clash with the gun and the crosshair. Black Ops 2 3D was decent, helped by the fact that they actually let you turn off the crosshair which stopped the eyefucking. Nano Assault Neo on the Wii U has really good 3D.
Click to expand...

Like Frank says though, it's a serious issue where you have to choose between image quality and 3D at some point. This doesn't look like the generation it'll be widespread, even on the PS4. Maybe if there's another console gen...
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Fuchsdh said:
Like Frank says though, it's a serious issue where you have to choose between image quality and 3D at some point. This doesn't look like the generation it'll be widespread, even on the PS4. Maybe if there's another console gen...
Click to expand...

But that's a given though. When I play in 3D I accept that I'm going to have to compromise on things.

CEA's 3D is apparently really good, but it has to take a hit in some other visuals aspects. That's a given, and it's something you have to accept. In my opinion the positive outweighs the negative. As per CEA, I believe 343 could do a good job with implementing 3D into more Halo games. If 3D is done well, it's fantastic!

I agree with Fyrewulf's post, since he said what I was trying to say a lot better.
 
W

Woorloog

Banned
kylej said:
Are you going to do a floating floor like Allure? I'm not going to finish my basement any time soon, but I've thought about going with a polished concrete finish to do something different. I have enough hardwood.

polished2.jpg
Click to expand...

I just realized i've seen something like this before. In the Finnish Parliament House actually, its cafeteria has a roof made from shiny stuff, making the roof look like it is twice as high, along with the support pillars.
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Chettlar said:
But that's a given though. When I play in 3D I accept that I'm going to have to compromise on things.

CEA's 3D is apparently really good, but it has to take a hit in some other visuals aspects. That's a given, and it's something you have to accept. In my opinion the positive outweighs the negative. As per CEA, I believe 343 could do a good job with implementing 3D into more Halo games. If 3D is done well, it's fantastic!

I agree with Fyrewulf's post, since he said what I was trying to say a lot better.
Click to expand...
The "hit" was already there. I assume they made sure the graphics were going to be fine so that 3D output didn't choke. But a AAA game is different from a remake, as are the expectations.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Fuchsdh said:
The "hit" was already there. I assume they made sure the graphics were going to be fine so that 3D output didn't choke. But a AAA game is different from a remake, as are the expectations.
Click to expand...

Uncharted did it just fine. Nanoassault apparantly does it just fine. Other games do it just fine. We've got tons of new power now with the Xbox One. It's certainly something they could do.

Target 1080p without 3D and 720p with it. Isn't that usually what happens? If necessary you could even make 3D a thing that you can only do without split-screen co-op (since obviously that is a resource hog as well), so if I want to do co-op in 3D, I'll need another Xbox because of power constraints. Both seem like compromises that I think most people would be able to take.
 
LAUGHTREY

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
kylej said:
Are you going to do a floating floor like Allure? I'm not going to finish my basement any time soon, but I've thought about going with a polished concrete finish to do something different. I have enough hardwood.

polished2.jpg
Click to expand...

That looks like it feels very cold.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Chettlar said:
Uncharted did it just fine. Nanoassault apparantly does it just fine. Other games do it just fine. We've got tons of new power now with the Xbox One. It's certainly something they could do.

Target 1080p without 3D and 720p with it. Isn't that usually what happens? If necessary you could even make 3D a thing that you can only do without split-screen co-op (since obviously that is a resource hog as well), so if I want to do co-op in 3D, I'll need another Xbox because of power constraints. Both seem like compromises that I think most people would be able to take.
Click to expand...

There's a whole ton of different ways to send 3D information to the screen, so they all have upsides and downsides. The base face-of-the-matter is, though: you have to render the scene twice. To maintain framerate, you have to choose

- a lower max framerate (Anniversary only needed to get out a 30fps scene)
- a lower resolution (Call of Duty, etc does this)
- a lower graphics bar (CEA had the advantage of having more leftover power than a game made for the console, it was a single core Xbox game ported to a 3-core 360).

For these reasons a game on the 3DS that doesn't use 3D can theoretically hit a higher IQ bar than any 3D-supporting game on the handheld.

Nano Assault isn't too taxing on the Wii U hardware (still looks great, though) and Uncharted had the motivation that the parent company wanted to sell 3DTVs.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
FyreWulff said:
There's a whole ton of different ways to send 3D information to the screen, so they all have upsides and downsides. The base face-of-the-matter is, though: you have to render the scene twice. To maintain framerate, you have to choose

- a lower max framerate (Anniversary only needed to get out a 30fps scene)
- a lower resolution (Call of Duty, etc does this)
- a lower graphics bar (CEA had the advantage of having more leftover power than a game made for the console, it was a single core Xbox game ported to a 3-core 360).

For these reasons a game on the 3DS that doesn't use 3D can theoretically hit a higher IQ bar than any 3D-supporting game on the handheld.

Nano Assault isn't too taxing on the Wii U hardware (still looks great, though) and Uncharted had the motivation that the parent company wanted to sell 3DTVs.
Click to expand...

Then I'm suggesting lower the res and the graphics slightly worse.

You're comparison to Halo CE doesn't make sense. It wasn't a port. It was an all out new game graphics-wise. The 360 had to push those newer, better graphics, just as it did a year later with Halo 4 or any other 360 game. If it had been a port from a single core Xbox then yes 3D would have been easier than cake, but it wasn't. Forget CE ever existed for a moment, and make this game on the 360. The graphics were still as good as most games coming out on the 360 at the time, so any things you have to do to other games to get 3D, you have to do to CEA, and anything you can do to CEA, you can do to other games. We're talking about graphics here, and in that sense, functionally it's as new as any other game in 2011 and is thus no different than the others.

Also, 30 fps was always 30 fps in CEA's case. The frame rate didn't go lower to accommodate 3D, and the game still looked great in 3D. If a game is running at 60 fps, then the graphics are already worse than a 30 fps game, so no reduction is needed to achieve 3D necessarily. You can simply reduce the resolution and visual effects (and textures, etc.) as needed.
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Chettlar said:
Then I'm suggesting lower the res and the graphics slightly worse.

You're comparison to Halo CE doesn't make sense. It wasn't a port. It was an all out new game graphics-wise. The 360 had to push those newer, better graphics, just as it did a year later with Halo 4 or any other 360 game. If it had been a port from a single core Xbox then yes 3D would have been easier than cake, but it wasn't. Forget CE ever existed for a moment, and make this game on the 360. The graphics were still as good as most games coming out on the 360 at the time, so any things you have to do to other games to get 3D, you have to do to CEA, and anything you can do to CEA, you can do to other games. We're talking about graphics here, and in that sense, functionally it's as new as any other game in 2011 and is thus no different than the others.

Also, 30 fps was always 30 fps in CEA's case. The frame rate didn't go lower to accommodate 3D, and the game still looked great in 3D. If a game is running at 60 fps, then the graphics are already worse than a 30 fps game, so no reduction is needed to achieve 3D necessarily. You can simply reduce the resolution and visual effects (and textures, etc.) as needed.
Click to expand...

CEA is running on top of the original Halo PC code. Yes, there's moar grafix, but the engine is still entirely designed to run on one core. They wouldn't have had (or have been able to) do anything like put physics on a separate core, because the game was designed to execute everything in order. And Halo 1 didn't have many physics objects in the first place due to how much overhead the original Halo physics engine had.

Also I'll have to pull the "I'm a developer" card, but there was some obvious tradeoffs CEA made to hit the graphics it did, like poor texture streaming. Graphics aren't the entire store of perf cost either. Physics are important, and sound on some 360 titles often takes up an entire core by itself (!!)

If CEA is running at 30fps locked in 3D then it's actually running at 60fps locked while in 3D mode. Because it has to render 30fps for each eye.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
FyreWulff said:
CEA is running on top of the original Halo PC code. Yes, there's moar grafix, but the engine is still entirely designed to run on one core. They wouldn't have had (or have been able to) do anything like put physics on a separate core, because the game was designed to execute everything in order. And Halo 1 didn't have many physics objects in the first place due to how much overhead the original Halo physics engine had.

Also I'll have to pull the "I'm a developer" card, but there was some obvious tradeoffs CEA made to hit the graphics it did, like poor texture streaming. Graphics aren't the entire store of perf cost either. Physics are important, and sound on some 360 titles often takes up an entire core by itself (!!)

If CEA is running at 30fps locked in 3D then it's actually running at 60fps locked while in 3D mode. Because it has to render 30fps for each eye.
Click to expand...

You're right on all of that. And I'm sorry I was misunderstanding you on that last bit. Yes, I know that it's technically running the same as when it's running 60 fps. Essentially the same load, yes.

BUT

I don't see how this has anything to do with Halo 5 though. Why can't Halo 5 (or whatever the next Halo, or even all the next Halos on Xbox One) run at 3D? Uncharted simply ran at a lower resolution and had great sound, still great visuals etc. Surely the Xbox One is capable of producing a gorgeous looking game in 3D. Yes, the res, framerate, etc. will be compromised, but that's a given..

When designing the game, target it to run at 1080p @ 60fps. When running it in 3D, run it at 720p @ 60 fps or even 720p @ 30 fps. This is not unrealistic at all.

I'm just saying I don't understand why Stinkles was saying "we're using the bandwidth for other things when" um...yeah that's great, really it is, but isn't that how it always is? 3D viewers have always had to make do with that.

What I'm saying is, Stinkles, why not run the game at a lower res and framerate to accommodate 3D? I mean, that's what is always done -- what has to be done in fact. I don't think anybody is seriously suggesting that you keep the game running at 1080p 60fps (since we don't even know if it'll be 1080p) while ALSO running it in 3D. That's just crazy and unreasonable. I'm certainly not suggesting that.
 
H

HigherLevel

Member
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

Wow. That absolutely sucks. I don't know if I'd be able to handle that. :(
 
K

kittens

Unconfirmed Member
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...
I'm sorry for your loss. Losing someone you've known that long is hard, even if it was "just" someone you played Halo with.
 
B

Blue Ninja

Member
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

My condolences. That's terrible. :(
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
Chettlar said:
You're right on all of that. And I'm sorry I was misunderstanding you on that last bit. Yes, I know that it's technically running the same as when it's running 60 fps. Essentially the same load, yes.

BUT

I don't see how this has anything to do with Halo 5 though. Why can't Halo 5 (or whatever the next Halo, or even all the next Halos on Xbox One) run at 3D? Uncharted simply ran at a lower resolution and had great sound, still great visuals etc. Surely the Xbox One is capable of producing a gorgeous looking game in 3D. Yes, the res, framerate, etc. will be compromised, but that's a given..
Click to expand...

This is where the the business side and other stuff comes in. Can you design a new game to accomodate 3D? Sure. The market for it has declined at this point, and they'd be hampering their game for a bullet point that very few people care about at the moment when they'd rather use that horsepower for other effects like better AF/AA, HDR, etc that more people care about.

HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

Shit sucks. :(
 
P

Poker Face

Member
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

damn, my condolences :/
 
A

aHebrewMenagerie

Member
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

Man, it always sucks to hear stuff like that. I'm so sorry, man, I've met some of my best friends through Halo and it's community. Thoughts/Prayers going out.
 
M

Mistel

Banned
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...
That's a horrible thing to happen, you have my sympathies.

Sorry I ditched you Nebula but I had to come off :(. Maybe on the weekend where I won't be complained at for playing halo at random times in the evening.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

I'm really sorry to hear about your friend, that's awful. :(
 
nillapuddin

nillapuddin

Member
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...

Really sorry for your loss bud, I know the people I now consider my best friends are because I met them many years ago through Halo, I couldn't imagine losing them.
I know its not "just someone online"

Best wishes to his family, and to you as well.
 
N

NobleGundam

Banned
HigherLevel said:
So yeah about my post last night. The guy's name here was Gamefreaks221. He didn't post in this thread but he was a huge Halo fan. Like I said I've been playing Halo with him for six years. It's super depressing, we were just talking last week about how pumped we were to play Halo 2 Anniversary if real, this fall. He was one of my main dudes to play Halo with online. The news has just made today and last night straight up suck. Every future Halo game won't be the same without coming home at midnight and playing with him. :(
Click to expand...
Dude, so sorry to hear about your friends lose.
I wouldn't be the same person also if I were to lose my close friends. We always play games at our houses and buy midnight releases and wouldn't quit until a day or two later. He sounds like sort of a brother to you :((
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
FyreWulff said:
This is where the the business side and other stuff comes in. Can you design a new game to accomodate 3D? Sure. The market for it has declined at this point, and they'd be hampering their game for a bullet point that very few people care about at the moment when they'd rather use that horsepower for other effects like better AF/AA, HDR, etc that more people care about.
Click to expand...

If you're talking about in terms of effort to put into that, then yeah, that's an issue, though I still think it's value added. It would definitely be a plus for me, especially seeing how 343 are pretty good with 3D it appears.

And again, things like AA would be done away with with 3D on, and still be there with 3D off. You're not losing horsepower because of 3D for those who don't use it because you only miss those things if you are missing 3D.

In other words, you only have to do without AF, AA, HDR, etc. that more people care about if you are doing 3D, and if you are doing 3D, that's something you know going in.

So the whole "we'd rather spend bandwidth on 60 fps" and "horsepower for things more people care about" (That is an assumption, but I'll let it slide for the point), does not make sense to me. If you're doing 60 fps or AA or whatever, 3D is not going to be running, so basically if you don't like 3D, there is nothing preventing you from having the things that you can't have when doing 3D. When 3D is turned off, all those things get to come back because the bandwidth/horsepower/whatever isn't being used for 3D anymore.

This is kind of how things always are. People playing uncharted didn't have to suffer with lower resolutions without 3D. ONLY when playing with it. SO OF COURSE you're going to get that horsepower used for AA, AF, etc. You don't have to do without those things with 3D because...

3D is optional and does not compromise other effects when it is off.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Zeouterlimits said:
But isn't the point that 3D costs time and effort to implement? When that could be spent elsewhere, that would possibly appeal to more people?
Click to expand...

That is the big issue I agree and definitely the strongest argument against my mine. I know 3D has seen a decrease in popularity, but the fact is that it wasn't 3D's fault. 3D when done right is FANTASTIC.

Things that are not built with 3D in mind usually look pretty terrible (Jurassic Park in 3D IMAX was pretty awesome, though I only assume it wasn't designed with 3D in mind originally). It's overused and misused to the point that, yeah, people don't care or are even put off buy it.

On the other hand it's really a big deal to me. I am going to be getting a 3D monitor soon and the thought of being able to use that on Halo, Microsoft's biggest franchise and one of my favorite franchise sounds absolutely brilliantly awesome. I know 3D isn't the most popular thing out there, but I think there's still a hefty number of people in the world that play Halo (I mean, even if we reduced it to 5% or so, that's still a shit ton of people) that would also appreciate 3D.

Just a question for curiosities sake, is it possible they could outsource 3D implementation to somebody like Saber? I mean, Saber are the ones who did CEA's 3D right?
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
Blueblur1 said:
It's 2014. Why are we even talking about 3D?
Click to expand...

Because now in 2014 we can get the graphics we struggled to get last gen and still get 3D as well. I mean Halo 3 could probably run at 1080p 60 fps AND 3D or something close.

And besides, it's awesome.

Besides, didn't somebody say something similar in 2011 when CEA came out and had 3D?
 
F

FyreWulff

Member
If you are a small indie developer, you can get away with throwing random features in.

For first party (and this is every first party), implementing 3D is more than turning it on and testing effects.

- You have to now test the entire game in both 2D and 3D, to make sure 3D didn't break something. Your workload has now doubled.
- Unit testing doubles.
- You have to test the game on various 3D TVs and various 3D modes (active, passive, etc)
- You have to make a separate UI branch so the UI looks right in 3D.

etc
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
This is why I'm asking, is it possible 3D could be outsourced? Hasn't this been done before? I think it'd be a viable option especially if Saber would be up for it.

And I disagree that 3D is a gimmick. It can come off as one, but it can also be a value added feature that can really enhance the experience.
 
N

NobleGundam

Banned
Crap. I just realized that it's possible Halo 2 Anniversary won't be 1080p.

And yet it could be said for Halo 5 or perhaps not if devs can pull it off for the XB1 in 2015-6.
 
C

Chettlar

Banned
NobleGundam said:
Crap. I just realized that it's possible Halo 2 Anniversary won't be 1080p.

And yet it could be said for Halo 5 or perhaps not if devs can pull it off for the XB1 in 2015-6.
Click to expand...

I mean, yeah it's possible but why do you say that? The guy leaking Halo 2A even existed said that 1080p is pretty much set in stone.

We should really be more scared about a lack of 60 fps since that's what he said was iffy.
 
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