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Halo |OT2| Hyper-Athletic Speed And Mass And Weight and Power

T

Tha Robbertster

Member
Lol at all the jumping to conclusions because of the bulletin. We've already seen that there is a slayer BR gametype in Halo 4.

bobs99 ... said:
Considering theres going to be recoil, could that potentially mean that there wont be spread? I could live with that trade off.
Click to expand...

David tweeted last night that there was no spread on the BR currently :)
 
T

The Henery

Member
BackdoorBeauty said:
By the way, are we the only Dark Souls / Halo people around here? When I stopped, I was on NG++++ and it was getting ridiculous. I probably killed over 1,000 people in PvP with my Darkmoon Blade.
Click to expand...

I recently started it again after (I think) messing up my leveling the first time around. Going for a purely endurance + strength build. I seem to only get invaded by scrublords; I carve them up every time and I don't even play the game much. I haven't actually invaded anyone else yet.

Halo

I think the most fatal error 343 made with reach was to promise that 'Vanilla Reach will always be playable'. Why would they promise that? You didn't have a pre-patch Halo 2 playlist with party popper grenades and 9 shot BR. You don't have a Halo 3 playlist in which a foe beaten down is propelled 300 yards across the map. Why should Reach keep pre-patch settings?

In the TU settings, as it stands, the bloom is improved, Armour Lock is balanced, and the bleedthrough issue no longer exists. This being hamstrung by the foolish Vanilla promise is making playlist management a more complicated task than it needs to be.
 
M

Magni

Member
Long post incoming:

So far, we've had 3 systems:

Halo 2 - Deal with it

No choice whatsoever, once you find a game, a map+gametype is randomly chosen by the game.

Halo 3 - Veto system

Possibility to veto a randomly chosen map+gametype option, if a veto passes, a second randomly chosen map+gametype option is chosen by the game.

Reach - Vote system

You can vote from up to three randomly chosen map+gametype (or vote for "None of the above"). The option with the most votes (if there is a tie, the top-most option) is chosen. If it's NOTA, three new randomly chosen map+gametype options are presented for a second final vote.

Problems with previous systems

Halo 2's system gave you no choice whatsoever. This was pretty frustrating if you repeatedly were dealt map+gametype combos you didn't want to play.

Halo 3's system would sometimes (often?) give you a worst map+gametype if you vetoed. Also, there was no distinction between vetoing a map or a gametype.

Reach's system lets the players choose. Unfortunately, unless you're in a full party or land in a good lobby, you end up playing the same maps over and over again (ie, Sword Base in SWAT because everyone thinks this game they'll finally get that Top Gold exterm).

Proposed solution

First step: the game chooses the map based on what players have previously played in that playlist.

In a playlist with M maps, each player is given a map-probability vector (MPV) or dimension M. Whenever a player enters a playlist, their MPV is reset to 0.

Code: 
Lets suppose a playlist has M = 5 maps
Everytime a player enters this playlist, his map-probability vector (MPV) is reset to ( 0, 0, 0, 0, 0).

Once all the players are found for a game, the system adds up all the vectors and chooses the map linked to the highest coefficient.

Code: 
Continuing from the previous example (with the five maps A, B, C, D, and E), let's suppose four players are in the game, with the following MPVs:
P1: (-4, 1, 1, 1, 1)
P2: (-3, 2,-3, 2, 2)
P3: ( 0, 0, 0, 0, 0)
P4: ( 0, 1,-3, 1, 1)

The sum of these four vectors gives (-7, 3,-5, 3, 3). Hence the map will be randomly chosen between B, D, and E.

Second step, players are then given a vote screen, with different gametype options on that map, or a "Different Map" option. This vote is carried out in the same way as Reach (except guests can't vote).

Code: 
Suppose map D is chosen, players could have the following vote:
[] Team Slayer on D
[] Team Slayer Pro on D
[] Team King on D
[] Different Map

Depending on which map is played, and if the players voted for a different map or not, their MPVs will be modified: the played map's weight is decremented by M-1, and all the others are incremented by 1. If a player voted "Different map" and the vote passes, then the first map's weight is also decremented by M-1. (all these values are placeholder, I'm sure someone at 343 could find better numbers).

Code: 
P1 votes for the Team Slayer, P2 doesn't vote, P3 votes Different Map, and P4 votes for the Team Slayer Pro => Team Slayer on D is chosen, and the players' MPVs are now:

P1: (-4, 1, 1, 1, 1) + ( 1, 1, 1,-4, 1) = (-3, 2, 2,-3, 2)
P2: (-3, 2,-3, 2, 2) + ( 1, 1, 1,-4, 1) =  (-2, 3,-2,-2, 3)
P3: ( 0, 0, 0, 0, 0) + ( 1, 1, 1,-4, 1) = ( 1, 1, 1,-4, 1)
P4: ( 0, 1,-3, 1, 1) + ( 1, 1, 1,-4, 1) = ( 1, 2,-2,-3, 2)

If P1 had voted for a different map, the veto would have passed. A new map would then have been chosen randomly between B and E. Suppose map B was chosen by the game, the MPVs would have been:

P1: (-4, 1, 1, 1, 1) + ( 1,-4, 1,-4, 1) = (-3,-3, 2,-3, 2)
P2: (-3, 2,-3, 2, 2) + ( 1,-4, 1, 1, 1) = (-2,-2,-2, 3, 3)
P3: ( 0, 0, 0, 0, 0) + ( 1,-4, 1,-4, 1) = ( 1,-4, 1,-4, 1)
P4: ( 0, 1,-3, 1, 1) + ( 1,-4, 1, 1, 1) = ( 1,-3,-2, 2, 2)

This system would allow for a much better variety in maps played, while still letting players have some control over what they play (notably the gametypes). It would also help with DLC: players with DLC maps would have these map's coefficients increase every game they play with at least someone who doesn't have the maps. Thus when all players in a lobby have the DLC, the odds are that a DLC map will be chosen. Once the majority of players have DLC, the odds will be balanced out automatically.

Thoughts everyone? Do we have any info on how maps are chosen in MM right now (I said randomly in my post but are we sure that players' previous games are not taken into account?)
 
G

Garrett 2U

Member
thee henery said:
Halo

I think the most fatal error 343 made with reach was to promise that 'Vanilla Reach will always be playable'. Why would they promise that? You didn't have a pre-patch Halo 2 playlist with party popper grenades and 9 shot BR. You don't have a Halo 3 playlist in which a foe beaten down is propelled 300 yards across the map. Why should Reach keep pre-patch settings?

In the TU settings, as it stands, the bloom is improved, Armour Lock is balanced, and the bleedthrough issue no longer exists. This being hamstrung by the foolish Vanilla promise is making playlist management a more complicated task than it needs to be.
Click to expand...

Probably because unlike previous patches, this one wasn't released until a year after the game's release.
By the time they added it Reach had an established player base.
The feature set was too ingrained into the common player's head that they wouldn't be able to cope with all of the changes and the population would be segmented even more.

Before Reach was dying, now it is recovering.
I think that was their only goal with the TU, make Reach last until H4.


As long as the multiplayer maps are all decent, I would be perfectly fine with the h3 veto system.
I think Reach's voting system offers too much flexibility with what you can play that it limits diversity.
If anything, I'd like to vote on 2 options, and its either one or the other.
As simple as vetoing, but with more freedom.
 
Z

zap

Member
Playing today it hit me how many terrible playlists are out there...

I miss Squad Slayer so much :(

I can't believe they thought that people who want TU would prefer Super Slayer over Squad Slayer. I would never have gone into TS just to vote if I knew this would be the outcome.

I seriously don't understand it. "Hmm hey look they like TU Team Slayer AND vanilla TS. Let's go and delete a slayer playlist that is slightly distinguished from TS, but is TU and replace it with a CARBON COPY of the existing playlist."

Who made that call? Wow.

Also - objective is lame with 5v5 now. So much grenade spam on the flag.
 
G

Garrett 2U

Member
I'm pretty confident that 343i will nail competitive multiplayer.
Just from what we saw/heard in the ViDoc, as well as from Frankie and David's comments.
It seems that they really have a firm grasp on what the faults were in previous Halo titles (fragmented player base, random bloom, armor lock) as well as what the successes were (BR, hitscan, movement, unique multiplayer locales).

What I'm interested in is how they choose to evolve the single player/coop.
I feel like firefight was interesting (in odst), but it lacked much replay ability.
The AI in Halo is fantastic, they could create more diversified coop experiences than just surviving an onslaught of enemies.

Frankie said that with Halo 4 they are trying to unify all the different experiences.. single player, multi player, and coop.
I think it would be really interesting if the coop game modes played some sort of part in the overall campaign world.

I'm going to use Mass Effect 3 as an example because its coop offerings are glorious.
It plays pretty much like horde, waves of enemies converge on you as you have to complete some objective.
Sometimes the objective is simply surviving, other times its downloading enemy intel, sometimes it disarming enemy devices.
But the simple objectives create a more immersive feel to the mode.

On top of that, it is integrated with campaign.
In the story you clear out these bases as the main character, and then your job in multiplayer is to play as a different squad who is trying to keep the base under friendly control.
The more you defend the bases, the more effectively your military can respond to galactic incidents due to its footholds behind enemy lines.


Now think about that set in the Halo world, no it doesn't have to affect the campaign.
But there are so many different scenarios the coop missions could explore.
And with the extensive sandbox Halo offers, it amplitudes those experiences.

Someone before on this thread suggested a mission where you have to defend an elephant vehicle as it travels through enemy control territory.
There are so many different ways that you could choose to defend it.
You could take to the skies in a UNSC aircraft and defend it from above.
You could travel on the sidelines through the mountains and snipe enemies off from afar, while defending it from heavy artillery using a target locater.
You could ride on the elephant and defend it from close quarter attacks as the enemies try to board it and take control.


In my opinion, those types of experiences would easily draw a competitive player like me into the more casual coop game modes.
Much more than playing team slayer against a bunch of AIs.

Now perhaps how that plays a part in the campaign world is that each time you successfully escort the elephant, it delivers an item (vehicle/weapon) that you can use at some stage in the campaign.
The impacting campaign part would really only work if the rumors are true and the campaign is an open world sandbox type situation.
 
S

squidhands

Member
Overdoz1z said:
Of course there will be BR starts gametypes and even entire playlists dedicated to them, but even a single match with AR starts is one too many.

Unless 343 made drastic changes to it (which I doubt) the skill-gap on that thing with be remain minimal. It's really noticeable when we used to play with a party of 5 gaffer in Squad Slayer (RIP) against bad players. Every DMR starts game we would utterly destroy the opponents and it would end in like 75-20 and during AR matches the other team generally got more kills, somewhere around the 30-40 count.
Click to expand...
So...you're complaining that you didn't win by enough points to satisfy yourself? Quality argument. ;-)
 
F

Fuchsdh

Member
Karl2177 said:
I'd like to congratualte heckfu, cyren, and monsterfracas for picking the correct team. And I would like to laugh at juices, lybertyboy, vhfive, steelyuhas, duncan, hydra, and tawpgun for picking the wrong team. And everyone can laugh at hyper for signing up, but not filling out a bracket.

You can continue with your Halo bitching now.
Click to expand...

Was this about the VCU game?
 
S

Striker

Member
Krispy said:
I got an Inconceivable and a flag cap. You mad?
Click to expand...
Why would I be mad? It's a terrible objective playlist, just like the crap in H3's version.

If only they rid the fringe stuff and properly adjusted armor ability loadouts accordingly, it would have been different.
 
E

ElzarTheBam

Member
Boomwood said:
I doubt it has any new info.
Click to expand...

Me too, from the description it gives:

Halo 4
We look at Microsoft’s line-up for the next year, and chat to 343 Industries about how it is putting its own stamp on the Halo franchise.

But, I'll see...

Also bought the dreamcast collection (new) for the 360 for 2 pounds today, bazinga!
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
ElzarTheBam said:
Me too, from the description it gives:

Halo 4
We look at Microsoft’s line-up for the next year, and chat to 343 Industries about how it is putting its own stamp on the Halo franchise.

But, I'll see...

Also bought the dreamcast collection (new) for the 360 for 2 pounds today, bazinga!
Click to expand...
You bought the DC Collection already and not the magazine?! WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE.
 
N

ncsuDuncan

Member
MagniHarvald said:
Long post incoming:
Click to expand...
Interesting idea, but I think it overlooks one major facet of online gaming: Some players really do want to play the same map over and over. Especially if there are only a handful of "good" maps.

I think gametype/map pairing won't go away any time soon. Players won't like it if you take away control from them, but having separate voting rounds for map and gametype would isn't the best solution.

Not sure if you've read my article, Quitting Halo, but since then I've settled on a compromise between what I posted there and the more intuitive/simple nature of the current system:

Reach voting, modified.

One upvote. (+1.00) - Press A to upvote.
One downvote. (-0.75) - Press X to downvote.

- Three map/gametype combos and "None of the Above". (Same as Reach.)
- Votes are not locked. (You can change until the voting round ends.)
- Votes ARE hidden. (You can only see the votes cast from your local Xbox.)

When the voting round ends, votes are locked and then the scores are shown to everyone (so you can see just how popular or unpopular each selection was).

Hidden voting is doable within Reach, but the problem there is that you might be wasting your vote on your favorite option while your absolutely LEAST favorite option gets the most votes. You might have picked your second favorite if you knew it had a better shot at winning (but then you're lying to the system about which option is your favorite, skewing the statistics used for playlist management). This new method would fix that by letting you downvote your most despised option, which frees you to be more honest with your upvote. Thoughts?
 
H

HigherLevel

Member
It's funny, just reading other forums shows you how big of a deal the Chief is to Halo. So many posts from people saying Halo is back and they are ditching CoD next year for Halo 4 just because the Chief is back.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Slightly Live said:
I don't like recoil.

The notion that some super soldier wearing tank armour can't hold a gun steady is silly.
Click to expand...

I'd strongly prefer it not have recoil as well; I don't like the idea of some little mini-game involved with firing weapons, be it an expanding reticule or recoil. It sounds like they're still balancing it so I'm holding my ire for now. We've had recoil in past games, but not applied to main precision weapons. I'm hesitant to embrace changes such as that to them because of how bloom impacted Reach.
 
D

daedalius

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I'd strongly prefer it not have recoil as well; I don't like the idea of some little mini-game involved with firing weapons, be it an expanding reticule or recoil. It sounds like they're still balancing it so I'm holding my ire for now. We've had recoil in past games, but not applied to main precision weapons. I'm hesitant to embrace changes such as that to them because of how bloom impacted Reach.
Click to expand...

Didn't halo 2 have recoil as well? This isn't really anything new, but super-suits that can flip tanks shouldn't really have recoil :p but its a gameplay thing, so eh.

TheOddOne said:
I'll give you Phil, maby Manny, maby Luke, maby Cam...

...dammit, I love this show. So good.
Click to expand...

Its so good.
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
GhaleonEB said:
I'd strongly prefer it not have recoil as well; I don't like the idea of some little mini-game involved with firing weapons, be it an expanding reticule or recoil. It sounds like they're still balancing it so I'm holding my ire for now. We've had recoil in past games, but not applied to main precision weapons. I'm hesitant to embrace changes such as that to them because of how bloom impacted Reach.
Click to expand...
Sure, but not liking it because "Spartans are super soldiers" is such a silly argument.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Slightly Live said:
I don't like recoil.

The notion that some super soldier wearing tank armour can't hold a gun steady is silly.
Click to expand...

You CAN hold it steady. Or at least, SuperSoldiers like me and Tashi can. If you can't, then you should be wearing Scrubs as you go home in the waaahmbulance. Actually, this is a true statement - if I can control the recoil, anyone can.
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
HigherLevel said:
It's funny, just reading other forums shows you how big of a deal the Chief is to Halo. So many posts from people saying Halo is back and they are ditching CoD next year for Halo 4 just because the Chief is back.
Click to expand...
Halo is the Master Chief. The first thing people will say about Halo, is the Chief. It's a big deal. People don't care if the BR has spread or bloom is away with Halo 4. 343i can publish the most selling first party title if the Marketing is doing its job right. Focus on the comeback of the Chief.

Even my mom knows who the Chief is.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
You CAN hold it steady. Or at least, SuperSoldiers like me and Tashi can. If you can't, then you should be wearing Scrubs as you go home in the waaahmbulance. Actually, this is a true statement - if I can control the recoil, anyone can.
Click to expand...

I'm still nervous about it, but your last statement is indeed soothing. :p
 
N

Navidson REC

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
You CAN hold it steady. Or at least, SuperSoldiers like me and Tashi can. If you can't, then you should be wearing Scrubs as you go home in the waaahmbulance. Actually, this is a true statement - if I can control the recoil, anyone can.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't really get the fear over recoil. As others have stated, we already had it in a few Halo games. And as opposed to bloom, it's much more predictable and you can actually control it directly without waiting for perfect timing while being at the mercy of chance.

And let's face it: There has to be some sort of restriction. Hitscan, no bloom and no recoil would be way overpowered, I think.
 
D

daedalius

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
You CAN hold it steady. Or at least, SuperSoldiers like me and Tashi can. If you can't, then you should be wearing Scrubs as you go home in the waaahmbulance. Actually, this is a true statement - if I can control the recoil, anyone can.
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me. Need more clips of it firing with very loud sound effects :)
 
A

AllIsOneIsNone

Banned
I like how a mortar was involved in creating the battle rifle sound. I nonchalantly walk away from big explosion sounds to look cool, then I get shot in the back.
 
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