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[raindoc]

It's all good. Wasn't sure what you meant.

I actual love the art direction of halo 4. Reach was just shit and halo 3 was too cartoony and plastic like

i like the more mature approach, but some of the choices remind me too much of the recent transformers movies or animes. the standard spartan IV helmet for example: looks like a robo-ninja to me and i'm not really happy with that because i prefer a more "naturalistic" design. form follows function.
i still think this game looks brilliant, but i'm not loving it.

 

[Hydranockz]

I don't see how this is even related. The AA icons in Reach do a very effective job of letting a player know what they do:

It's a valid criticism that the H4 icons don't communicate that well what each ability does.

So why shouldn't we apply the very same logic to what the guns do? you could easily signify the difference in firing rates each gun has. Does that mean that you should?

The Forerunner aesthetic they are using seems to be a lot more abstract than previous iterations of these abilities. The only problem with this is if some of the more abstract ones look too similar to each other. Any other use they have will be known and recognised by the player as they use them. If I see the icon for a DMR after having used it, I will associate that icon with having a single shot firing rate and a 3x scope (or whatever it is). It is not the purpose of the icon to tell me what it does but rather, what it is.

 

[Navidson REC]

It is not the purpose of the icon to tell me what it does but rather, what it is.

But that sure helps! I mean, it's of course nitpicking and one will get used to it pretty quickly. But at least it should be easier to distinguish them. And the more complicated they are, the harder it is to see the differences.

As of now, simply from casually watching a few videos, I have no idea what icon signifies what armor ability except for the Hologram one. I couldn't even reconstruct a single one of the others!

 

[Hydranockz]

But that sure helps! I mean, it's of course nitpicking and one will get used to it pretty quickly. But at least it should be easier to distinguish them. And the more complicated they are, the harder it is to see the differences.

As of now, simply from casually watching a few videos, I have no idea what icon signifies what armor ability except for the Hologram one. I couldn't even reconstruct a single one of the others!

Completely agree.

 

[Plywood]

So why shouldn't we apply the very same logic to what the guns do? you could easily signify the difference in firing rates each gun has. Does that mean that you should?

The Forerunner aesthetic they are using seems to be a lot more abstract than previous iterations of these abilities. The only problem with this is if some of the more abstract ones look too similar to each other. Any other use they have will be known and recognised by the player as they use them. If I see the icon for a DMR after having used it, I will associate that icon with having a single shot firing rate and a 3x scope (or whatever it is). It is not the purpose of the icon to tell me what it does but rather, what it is.

I felt that Reach effectively communicated both what an AA does as well as what it is. As it stands currently, I don't think Halo 4's AA icons achieve either all that well.

 

[Poker Face]

from r/halo (promethean grenade)

 

[raindoc]

So why shouldn't we apply the very same logic to what the guns do? you could easily signify the difference in firing rates each gun has. Does that mean that you should?

The Forerunner aesthetic they are using seems to be a lot more abstract than previous iterations of these abilities. The only problem with this is if some of the more abstract ones look too similar to each other. Any other use they have will be known and recognised by the player as they use them. If I see the icon for a DMR after having used it, I will associate that icon with having a single shot firing rate and a 3x scope (or whatever it is). It is not the purpose of the icon to tell me what it does.

but it is the purpose of the icon to tell you what it is. you won't mistake the DMR for the BR because they have a different shape that resembles the weapon and in either case: you know it's a weapon, they all do the same thing: shoot stuff.

not so much the AA. they do different stuff, not stuff differently but the symbols don't always give an obvious clue what the represented AA does, because the pictograms show geometrical shapes instead of the function. the eye in the promethean vision symbol is a dead giveaway as to what's behind that AA, same goes for the double-helmet-holo symbol, but what the heck are the other 2?
i could never guess that, but that's what using symbols is all about, isn't it? if it isn't easily recognizable plain text would work better and be cheaper...

 

[The Librarian]

It is not the purpose of the icon to tell me what it does but rather, what it is.

I'm confused. I agree with what you're saying here, but I think you're saying the icons in Halo 4 have to be needlessly abstract. And I don't agree with your comparison of icons of AAs and weapons because they're two entirely different things. Isn't it just easier for icons of AAs – and only AAs, because they do not have the bells and whistles of guns, and because they only serve one function – to tell me what they do? Telling me what they do tells me what they are.

It's easier for me to learn that this

is the symbol for jetpack than it is for me to learn that this

is the symbol for...whatever. I have no idea.

Of course, once we memorize what each icon is for, you have it nailed down and you won't need the icons to tell you what they do. This was the way it was in Halo 3 albeit with simpler designs. For Reach, Bungie decided it was best to rework the icons for the new AAs because it was hard for players to memorize each icon for each piece of equipment in Halo 3. And in Reach it was much easier to memorize them. Yes, the job of an icon is to tell what something is, but in this case, it's easier to convey what it does – and in doing so, what it is.

Edit: Also, further clarification on one point. You can't have an icon for the BR or DMR tell you everything it does because the icon would become too cluttered. Why would you want an icon for the BR give its silhouette, that it has a 2x scope, kills in five shots to the head, and its best at medium to close range? That would be too cluttered. For AAs it's easier because they only do one thing.

 

[Karl2177]

Is anyone else's mobileGAF acting up on Chrome?

Also, are you really arguing this, Hydra? Kylej and co. aren't exaggerating when they say you are on the 343i defense force.

 

[The Librarian]

Is anyone else's mobileGAF acting up on Chrome?

Oml3t du Fromage tweeted a similar problem last night. But he didn't say if that was mobile or a computer browser.

 

[Overdoziz]

Finally caught up on watching a few videos I missed the past few weeks... Man, the Forge demonstration was a major disappointment. The dynamic lighting (or whatever it is) looks cool but how cool it is will depend on how you can configure the lighting. The player traits thing was also cool. Other than those two things it looked horrible. Leave it to Forge to make Foreunner environments look like complete crap. That bunker looked pathetic.

I was disappointed when I saw that once again we get a bunch of objects that are so incredibly specific that you can't use them for anything really. Those bunker pieces can't be used for anything except for making the Blood Gulch base. They're essentially useless. Just give me simple, more versatile objects that allow me to create my own unique bases and structures.

 

[Hydranockz]

Is anyone else's mobileGAF acting up on Chrome?

Also, are you really arguing this, Hydra? Kylej and co. aren't exaggerating when they say you are on the 343i defense force.

Arguing what? Abstract and symbolic icons are actual things. It's just design choices. The only thing I am worried about is if they look too similar to each other because of the aesthetic. That is a valid complaint. Therein is the rabbithole of bad design.

As long as they are discernable, they'll be fine. PV clearly has an eye on it. I hope I'm right in saying the one with the directional arrows is a thruster.

If the icon for a Sticky Detonator looked too similar to the icon for a Pistol, there is the problem. The problem isn't that they chose a graphical representation for the weapons rather than their functions.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

We have truly run out of things to dissect. We need some new news.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

from r/halo (promethean grenade)

It is that weird multi angular thing, right?

 

[Hydranockz]

It is that weird multi angular thing, right?

I thought that was a structure in the background lol.

 

[Poker Face]

It is that weird multi angular thing, right?

yes.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

I thought that was a structure in the background lol.

Me too at first But it seems to be hovering in the air and I don't see another sign of a promethean grenade anywhere else.

 

[The Librarian]

Arguing what? Abstract and symbolic icons are actual things. It's just design choices. The only thing I am worried about is if they look too similar to each other because of the aesthetic. That is a valid complaint. Therein is the rabbithole of bad design.

I don't understand. Why is preferring the icons of AAs tell you what they do over the design decision of them in Halo 4 (and, to an extent, Halo 3) not a valid complaint when one sees one design better at conveying information?

 

[Tawpgun]

I don't understand. Why is preferring the icons of AAs tell you what they do over the design decision of them in Halo 4 (and, to an extent, Halo 3) not a valid complaint when one sees it one design better at conveying information?

Because 343 can't be wrong. They can only be less right.

They might change them. Reach had symbols instead of diagrams initially.

 

[Der Flatulator]

Halo Reach beta:

I think it would be a valid assumption that the Halo 4 E3 AA icons will be refined before release.

 

[ElzarTheBam]

Because 343 can't be wrong. They can only be less right.

They might change them. Reach had symbols instead of diagrams initially.

This video shows most of them.

That video also blew everyone away, how times have changed.

I want one these videos for Halo 4. I love all the dissecting that comes afterwords.

 

[Swarmerr]

I was disappointed when I saw that once again we get a bunch of objects that are so incredibly specific that you can't use them for anything really. Those bunker pieces can't be used for anything except for making the Blood Gulch base. They're essentially useless. Just give me simple, more versatile objects that allow me to create my own unique bases and structures.

I fear they do this for the same reason they won't give us individual weapon modifiers. In the end they would rather us play things that they have made, rather than have us create something that is equal to or exceeds their creation.

I mean making simpler forge objects would be much easier than creating those bunker pieces..

 

[Talents]

Out of all my concerns for Halo 4 multiplayer, Jetpack and Camo returning are my biggest ones. Absolutely breaks maps in the blink of an eye.

God definately, played Reach for the first time in ages a few weeks ago because some of my mates wanted to play, they played in Super Slayer and 2 of the 3 games, we got a team of Jetpackers, one on the map with a snipe tower on one side, rockets on the bottom, a sniper next to a mancannon... I have no idea what any of the maps are called...

 

[FyreWulff]

The benefit pre-made pieces have is you have one object to render versus ~12 (just estimating). The downside is they're pretty much for a specific use.

The reason the object count matters so much? That 12 object base becomes a 48 object base in 4-split. Make both halves of the bunker ala Coag/Hem and a 24 object base becomes a 96-object base..

 

[Swarmerr]

God definately, played Reach for the first time in ages a few weeks ago because some of my mates wanted to play, they played in Super Slayer and 2 of the 3 games, we got a team of Jetpackers, one on the map with a snipe tower on one side, rockets on the bottom, a sniper next to a mancannon... I have no idea what any of the maps are called...

That would be uncaged and it is virtually unplayable if you are not using jetpack as well..

 

[Gunnerdude]

I don't understand. Why is preferring the icons of AAs tell you what they do over the design decision of them in Halo 4 (and, to an extent, Halo 3) not a valid complaint when one sees one design better at conveying information?

Gonna have to agree with this.... I like Reach's AA icons. They let both experienced and new players know exactly what they have the instant they pick them up (or even before they pick them up)

Easy on the eyes too.

 

[Karl2177]

God definately, played Reach for the first time in ages a few weeks ago because some of my mates wanted to play, they played in Super Slayer and 2 of the 3 games, we got a team of Jetpackers, one on the map with a snipe tower on one side, rockets on the bottom, a sniper next to a mancannon... I have no idea what any of the maps are called...

That's Uncaged, and it's probably 75% of the problem.

 

[Gunnerdude]

That's Uncaged, and it's probably 100% of the problem.

Fixed that for you

 

[Hydranockz]

I don't understand. Why is preferring the icons of AAs tell you what they do over the design decision of them in Halo 4 (and, to an extent, Halo 3) not a valid complaint when one sees it one design better at conveying information?

Initially I was going to argue the bolded as my reason, but your edit assumes the point of icons is to 'convey information' which isn't necessarily true for what AA signs need to be.

Hands down, Reach's AA icons do a fantastic job at showing you what the AA does. No arguments there. There never was.

There does not need to be any information conveyed as to how it works though. Like I said, the icons for every single weapon does not tell you how it works.

Bungie took a literal representation to AAs so as to show users how they work at a glance.

343 has taken a more symbolic approach to representin AAs. Now, if the purpose of these icons is to convey how the AA works, then of course, failure (to some extent). My whole point is that we don't need to be spoonfed what AAs do. They are indexes really. If the indexes are too similar, then, as I have already said, they will not work.

The long and the short of it; I don't believe signs need to tell you how the things work. As long as they are clearly identifiable as whatever they are, that's all that matters to me.

 

[Overdoziz]

The benefit pre-made pieces have is you have one object to render versus ~12 (just estimating). The downside is they're pretty much for a specific use.

The reason the object count matters so much? That 12 object base becomes a 48 object base in 4-split.

I really hope there's no 4-way splitscreen in Halo 4 matchmaking. Or at the most only in one playlist.

 

[Hydranockz]

I really hope there's no 4-way splitscreen in Halo 4 matchmaking. Or at the most only in one playlist.

Wasn't this heavily rumoured at some point?

 

[Gunnerdude]

I really hope there's no 4-way splitscreen in Halo 4 matchmaking. Or at the most only in one playlist.

Reminds me of Halo 3 double team... guy joins with a buddy and an idle controller... searching alone... matched up against them.... a 2v2 turns into try to bait your idle team mate into a double kill without giving up any deaths....

Good times good times

 

[StalkerUKCG]

I really hope there's no 4-way splitscreen in Halo 4 matchmaking. Or at the most only in one playlist.

Make the majority of playlists no guest allowed and its problem solved. I hope some of the framerate issue with forge are fixed anyway.

Id love to see a Coag base as a forge item with the drop down and grave lift holes and such and the banshee pad at the bottom its one of the best bases in halo i think.

Also Tony Hawk HD, SO GOOD

 

[Karl2177]

Fixed that for you

Nah, AAs are still a big problem, but the layout of Uncaged only serves to magnify the AA issue.

 

[Homeboyd]

I really hope there's no 4-way splitscreen in Halo 4 matchmaking. Or at the most only in one playlist.

Doesn't there have to be? I'm thinking about what we've seen advertised in terms of the "up to 4 players online" or "bring 3 of your buddies for some online War Games mayhem!" type of crap. I'm at work now so I can't go look, but if it's been advertised in a similar way, I think they've got to stick with it. There are still a lot of people who like to load up on one tv and hit matchmaking with their buddies. Customs seems like the obvious choice, but many still prefer MM.

 

[Shadders]

As long as they are discernable, they'll be fine. PV clearly has an eye on it. I hope I'm right in saying the one with the directional arrows is a thruster.

I think it's the Hardlight Shield.

 

[The Librarian]

Initially I was going to argue the bolded as my reason, but your edit assumes the point of icons is to 'convey information' which isn't necessarily true for what AA signs need to be.

Hands down, Reach's AA icons do a fantastic job at showing you what the AA does. No arguments there. There never was.

There does not need to be any information conveyed as to how it works though. Like I said, the icons for every single weapon does not tell you how it works.

Bungie took a literal representation to AAs so as to show users how they work at a glance.

343 has taken a more symbolic approach to representin AAs. Now, if the purpose of these icons is to convey how the AA works, then of course, failure (to some extent). My whole point is that we don't need to be spoonfed what AAs do. They are indexes really. If the indexes are too similar, then, as I have already said, they will not work.

The long and the short of it; I don't believe signs need to tell you how the things work. As long as they are clearly identifiable as whatever they are, that's all that matters to me.

I think we're going in circles at this point. Most of what you say in this post I've already explained my issues with in a previous post on this very same page. The gist of it comes down to one thing, I think: There are no advantages or disadvantages to either design, except that one is easier to memorize than the other and thus easier for players to grasp. People, like Plywood, think it would be easier to identify AAs by what they do rather than creating a symbol for what they are and have players memorize them. I still don't see what's not valid about that.

 

[TheOddOne]

Halo Reach beta:

I think it would be a valid assumption that the Halo 4 E3 AA icons will be refined before release.

I really dug those, but yeah they don't say much about the ability.

 

[daedalius]

More design talk...

nope I blew my load on design bitching last night.

Personally I think they look fine, and you'd know what they are after you played a few times. They could certainly be simpler, but that abstract look seems to be what they are going for.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

More design talk...

nope I blew my load on design bitching last night.

Personally I think they look fine, and you'd know what they are after you played a few times. They could certainly be simpler, but that abstract look seems to be what they are going for.

But think about the new players! They can't remember the weapon spawn location on maps after a few times so how should they be able to remember which abstract icon is which AA?

 

[YourExWife]

Reminded once again why I want jetpack nuked from the universe. Take an excellent map such as Beaver Creek, and it goes from an A+ map to an F with the inclusion of jetpack, so stupid...

To be fair, we (as a team) weren't killing the hill guy at all until halfway through the game. We could have won easily with a little more organization and less "OMG FUCKING JETPACKS!!! RRRRRRRAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEE!!!"

One room that is nearly impossible to attack against a decently competent team. Just means the map is broken, doesn't make it fun. At all.

I do find it fun to be red team, protest against voting for the map/gametype combo, and then punishing the blue idiots who chose it anyway. It's a small vindication.

Good times. YourExWife needs to start capping customs.

I can do this if you guys like. I capped one recently that I played a few weeks back with biggy, heckfu, tckaos, and a couple other friends. Warning: rocket fails confirmed. Also, I can do this quality, but without making it too dark on accident because I forgot to change my black levels.

 

[OverHeat]

This video shows most of them.

That video also blew everyone away, how times have changed.

I want one these videos for Halo 4. I love all the dissecting that comes afterwords.

Dat music!

 

[Homeboyd]

Weren't those icons from the e3 build?

 

[TheOddOne]

But think about the new players! They can't remember the weapon spawn location on maps after a few times so how should they be able to remember which abstract icon is which AA?

Fuck 'em.

 

[Xx Overkill VR]

Doesn't there have to be? I'm thinking about what we've seen advertised in terms of the "up to 4 players online" or "bring 3 of your buddies for some online War Games mayhem!" type of crap. I'm at work now so I can't go look, but if it's been advertised in a similar way, I think they've got to stick with it. There are still a lot of people who like to load up on one tv and hit matchmaking with their buddies. Customs seems like the obvious choice, but many still prefer MM.

Its one thing for the game to support 4 local players and its another for it to be fully featured.

Co-op campaign and Spartan Ops should be the only game modes to support 4 local players online and offline since it is Player vs AI but when it comes to competitive multiplayer it should be 2 player matchmaking and 4 player custom games and LAN.

Chalk it up to technical and balance reasons, its as easy as that.

Wasn't this heavily rumoured at some point?

Someone let it leak by accident or misspoke about online being 2 player split.

 

[The Librarian]

More design talk...

nope I blew my load on design bitching last night.

Personally I think they look fine, and you'd know what they are after you played a few times. They could certainly be simpler, but that abstract look seems to be what they are going for.

Daedalius, I'm curious – if only to clear up some confusion on my part – what do you think is (are) the appropriate way(s) to talk about the design decisions made by 343, if any? Because the impression I'm getting from you – from last night and this morning – is that we can't comment on any design changes made by 343. I'd like to know if I'm doing anything wrong here because I don't want to level any invalid criticism at 343 because that's not fair to them and doesn't help them make a better game because of poor feedback.

 

[Trey]

Its one thing for the game to support 4 local players and its another for it to be fully featured.

Co-op campaign and Spartan Ops should be the only game modes to support 4 local players online and offline since it is Player vs AI but when it comes to competitive multiplayer it should be 2 player matchmaking and 4 player custom games and LAN.

Chalk it up to technical and balance reasons, its as easy as that.

Or only allow guests into nonranked matchmaking playlists.

 

[willow ve]

We're still months away from launch. If they did any sort of official trailer would it really stick with the general consumer? It's the middle of summer for most of the 360 install base and many people are on holiday or doing outdoor activities. Yes the elite nerds of the Halo universe would love to have a vidoc or whatever 343 will call them, but it might not make sense to release that kind of material until late August, early September.

 

[Gunnerdude]

Or only allow guests into nonranked matchmaking playlists.

So every playlist

?

As in no ranking system which means guests in every playlist!

*winky face*

 

[JonCha]

The YouTube comments on that Reach beta video: 'Armor Lock is the only problem.'

God damn these people talk complete garbage ...