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Halo |OT6| I will not allow you to leave this thread!
- Thread starter The Librarian
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You have to acknowledge the side effects of a ridiculously awesome sidearm. Yeah we all want a fucking super effective pistol, but if we got it, then almost the entire sandbox is laid to waste.
I almost feel like the majority of HaloGAF wants a 4 weapon sandbox; pistol, BR, Sniper, and Rockets. That would really suck to have in a game.
Yeah it may not make you feel like Superman using the weapons, but there is damn good reason for it. Every weapon has to feel like it has great potential "IF" something was different.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yes, significantly faster.
I don't think they have a changelist. A significant amount of the changes were never discussed. There was a post-beta podcast that talked about some of the changes they made though, including Josh Hamrick saying that bloom wasn't close to perfect, but it was basically too late haha.
Uh, no just don't make the other weapons suck. "If everything is overpowered, nothing is overpowered".
Take the shotgun for example. If you put the CE shotgun in Reach, it would get 100 kills a game, but in CE it was balanced, the weapons, including the utility weapon was appropriately balanced against it. In the Reach beta, the Shotgun was significantly stronger than it is now, with emphasis being on a greater effective range than than in the final build. It was balanced similarly though because the Magnum could kill way faster and more consistently at close range.
I absolute hate what became the Bungie weapon balance strategy for Halo 3 and Reach, make everything balanced by all the weapons being weak.
Lol I went into TS for a few games and went like -10 in 3 games straight. Almost got goosed lol. But then I flipped the switch and dominated...sorta lol
You're disputing kill speed over weapon balance I think. And in my personal opinion, it is unfair to compare the Shotgun to the Magnum. The Magnum is absolutely not a close-range weapon. Yeah you may find yourself stuck in the scenario where you are forced to use your Magnum close range because the only other thing you have is your trusty midrange rifle on you, but that's the point. The Shotgun, Energy Sword, and Gravity Hammer are the only designated close-range weapons in the game. Just because the CE Shotgun had longer range, doesn't mean that should be the standard, unless like I said before, you want to minimize the sandbox.
Edit: UNKNOWN just agreed with your point which basically pleads my case further.
What I don't get is that Bungie said before the beta that the pistol and DMR used the same bullets and so dealt the same amount of damage... but didn't they nerf the pistol after the beta?
But then as we can see in bleedthrough gametypes, the pistol dealt MORE damage than the DMR. Wat.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
This.. This mentality right here I've been preaching for YEARS and people always give shit for it. In Halo 1 EVERYTHING felt OP in their own area of effectiveness (except the Needler). Why nerf the good things instead of buffing the weaker areas? Ahh well, to each his/her own :b
I'm outta this biatch! Later people
Steelyuhas
Member
Kill times are one of the ways to balance the sandbox. Also, effective range of weapons is another. I used the Shotgun and the Magnum as an example because you have to balance the weapons against each other. The Magnum is absolutely a short range weapon, that's the point of the weapon, close to medium range starting weapon. The Shotgun, Sword, and Hammer are the close range power weapons, but that doesn't mean they are the only weapons in the game that are supposed to be effective at close range.
I do not want to minimize the sandbox, I just don't like how people's vision of a balanced and diverse sandbox results in all the weapons being weak, it's totally unnecessary. The Magnum was much stronger in the beta, but so was the Repeater, Plasma Pistol, Shotgun, and Focus Rifle. I experienced more weapon diversity in the beta than the final game, with a stronger Magnum.
As for the Shotgun specifically (bit of a tangent here), I believe one of Bungie's biggest mistakes with the sandbox after CE was killing the Shotgun's range. When the shotgun does nothing outside of two feet, you are forced to camp with the weapon for it to be effective. When it has more range, players have the ability to actually engage players as still relatively short range, but they can move with the thing and don't have to hide around corners to use the weapon effectively.
Clip sizes were changed, I think. Maybe changes to the bloom rate? the beta was so long ago.
re: the bleedthrough difference. I think it turned out that the weapons were not actually literally the same damage value before, but close enough that they still had the same number of shots. I think noobs did a comparison with some damage/damage resistance changes in Firefight or something where he discovered the DMR killed slightly faster.
Then 343 added the ability to change the pistol's damage in the TU Megalo hooks and they never just made the pistol have the same damage. Their "fix" was to make it so the pistol would kill you in 5 shots but leave your shields up, while the DMR killed you in 5 but stripped your shields in 4. It felt like a roundabout way just to keep justifying the existence of bleedthrough outside of Anniversary.
I left a summary of changes from the beta in the beta thread OP. DMR went from 12 to 15 rounds per clip, the Nerfle from 16 to 21. Though once the game came out, a number of changes not listed were noted (such as the magnum's expanded bloom).
What is this. Like, I like you, but literally what is this. The shotgun is a power weapon meant to reign supreme over short-range combat. The Magnum is a sidearm meant to sub in for your DMR when you're within short to mid-range. The Magnum should have absolutely NO balance effect on the Shotgun. Just, no. No no no.
Yes, it really does. That's why they don't spawn you with them. They are short-range power weapons. Yeah the Magnum may be MORE effective than the DMR, but that does NOT designate it as a short-range weapon.
You do realize you are effectively changing nothing if you scale all the weapons upwards. That's the equivalent to inflation.
Adding a range on the Shotgun creates a problem in the sandbox. How do you treat a Shotgun if it can do what the Sword and Gravity Hammer do, but with a longer range? Might as well just nix those two weapons. It fucks things up. Yeah, more fun for the weapon holder, but less fun for everyone else. You guys bitch about Armor Lock, but if they added a mid-range Shotgun in the existing sandbox...holy mother of fuck, you'd be looking at some Gears of War-esque backlash.
Barrow Roll
Member
Because Steely has the right idea (to be expected from a wolf) and Ryaaan is oh so wrong.
Deputy Moonman
Member
Disagree, mostly. I don't think the pistol has to be a short range weapon, either, which is where most of my agreeing with you ends. It's easy to make some of your points for Reach simply because that's how bungie implemented them in Reach. But, that doesn't hold up as a general rule. Just giving the shotgun more range won't make it OP. I think Steely's example of the shotgun and pistol is a classic example. That is the FPS in a nutshell - quick medium range weapon against a slow powerful short range weapon. Either can win based on skill. That's how the Halo sandbox should work imo. There is too much emphasis on the long range weapons like the DMR in Reach, where it becomes the sole weapon that people use. And normally, I'm a fan of the go-to ("equalizer") weapon. But i just don't get why other weapons are allowed to be useful and fun, while the pistol is forbidden to be a good option. In Reach, it was closer to anything we've had since CE, but they still managed to turn it into something less than reliable. I just don't understand why it matters. In support of Steely's argument, I think all the weapons should be fairly powerful. The gap between power weapons and regular weapons needs to be toned WAY THE F down. Regardless, Bungie took a fat dump on the whole sandbox system anyway by introducing all the armor abilities that completely ruin CQC.
You used the term "side-arm" which (not your fault) automatically turns me off. Nothing says "do not pick up this weapon" like classifying a weapon as a side-arm. The whole concept of making weapons suck ass in a game and then excusing them as side-arm is pointless unless you're going to make it so that you can only carry one main weapon and are forced to carry a side-arm only for your second slot. Otherwise, continue pissing in the wind (not you, but more directed at the developers) and see how it works out lol
Sweet.
NobleGundam
Banned
That's mainly what made me lost all interest in Gears online. Players spamming and ridiculous mid-range shotting with shotgun is the choice of everyones primary weapon
Why didn't they nerf it after 3 games? And can we assume all the broken things in GoW's MP be in this coming prequel? Yes.
Steelyuhas
Member
All weapons are balanced against each other to an extent. On the games default settings, the Magnum is a starting weapon alongside the AR. They have to be balances against each other. How much of a chance does someone with a Magnum have against someone with a shotgun at close range? It can't be none, yes if the shotgun user doesn't make a mistake they are going to win almost every time, but there has to be a chance for a Magnum user to capitalize if they force a mistake. If the shotgun is just autowin, that is very much rock, paper, scissors and very uninteresting. Also, at what range does the Magnum start for have a clear advantage over the guy with a shogun? These are both examples of the weapons being balanced against each other. All the weapons connect through combat scenarios like this, it's how the weapon sandbox works as a whole.
So when I spawn, I have not weapon that's effective in close range? The AR, Magnum, Plasma Repeater, and Plasma Pistol are all effective in close range, just not as effective as the shotty and sword, because they are power weapons.
You said that I wanted to limit the sandbox by having a more powerful Magnum, and my counter is that other weapons can become more powerful as well as appropriate for the sandbox. It doesn't change nothing, it makes an individual player more powerful with the right skillset.
I don't think the sword/hammer are very good weapons in the sandbox personally.
And I don't think that the shotgun should be some mid-range powerhouse, but as your close to mid range starting weapon becomes more powerful, you scale the shotgun accordingly.
Yeah this a mostly a general balance example. The Pistol at this point in Halo is basically the developer trolling the player with a weapon that has the potential to be good with a few tweaks, but really isn't in its current state.
Even though it's quite isolated, I do think the Magnum as a flag sidearm is an interesting idea given the gimped strength of the weapon.
So why should the shotgun exist? Unless you want to make the pistol spawn on the map as a power weapon as opposed to a common ammunition spawn.
Mostly because the Magnum is balanced against the AR, which is a moderately useful weapon in most scenarios. Spawn a player with a precise mid-long range weapon and give them a close-mid range weapon fallback. AR and Magnum spawns are somewhat of a grey area, I guess to give you the option of which to keep when you pick up a mid-long range weapon on a map (which I'm sure none of the wolfpack likes to do, it is so laborious.)
I agree armor abilities messed with CQB, but I certainly don't think there is too big of a gap between power weapons vs regular. In fact I would say in Reach, armor abilities lessened that gap by a substantial amount vs any other Halo game, simply because of being able to counter power weapons with an ability, which is what you're alluding to with the CQB argument, but it is applicable to all ranges. Camo + Sniper = OP. Sprint + Sword or Shotty = OP. Jet Pack + Needler = OP. The list goes on.
There is a reason they spawn you with "meh" weapons. To promote map movement (familiar argument) to pick up other weapons. Yeah you may be all "ALRIGHT BRO LET'S FUCKIN RUN INTO BATTLE WITH THESE BEASTING RIFLES", but it boils down to creating a layered experience in a game and adding more factors to consider while playing than just spawning and killing a dude. These are "objective" type features within Slayer games.You used the term "side-arm" which (not your fault) automatically turns me off. Nothing says "do not pick up this weapon" like classifying a weapon as a side-arm. The whole concept of a making weapons suck ass in a game and then excusing them as side-arm is pointless unless you're going to make it so that you can only carry one main weapon and are forced to carry a side-arm only for your second slot. Otherwise, continue pissing in the wind (not you, but more directed at the developers) and see how it works out lol
thezerofire
Banned
Gears 3 is very rifle oriented. Obviously the shotgun still has its place but I'm primarily a rifle player and I do pretty well
So what you're saying is: Reach is a timeless classic and has infinite replay value?
Some might even say it is the definitive Halo from the people who made Halo.
These words offend me and still make me laugh. I am also sad.
thezerofire
Banned
they nerfed it pretty hard. People hardly play with it anymore
So what you're saying is: you are saddened by the fact that we have to stop playing Reach and that you're friends laugh at you because you own Halo Wars.
NobleGundam
Banned
Agree with this. Sorry if I forgot to add what you've pointed out about rifles playing a bigger role in MP. Hammer Burst is so damn accurate when Aiming down sight<3 Also brought back the original sniper feel to it.
I don't own Halo Wars. Take that Microsoft.
Halo Wars is not a Halo game.
The 12 people playing it online right now beg to differ.
It's a gem. Pick it up.
It's achievements are recognized on Waypoint, therefore CANON
Halo 4 also has a Halo Wars unit in it.
Believe.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Wow. That's.. ridiculous and fairly offensive to those at Ensemble who worked their asses off on it.
I don't care what you people say, I will never, ever support, buy, or be the slightest bit interested in that game. I am very content in pretending it never existed.
It was their decision to make a Halo RTS by an outside developer, and they knew they would sacrifice fans in doing so. I am one of them. Don't make me out to be an enemy because I resent this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaf8CVS6cg
Also, they used a great RTS developer. 343 was just in it's prototype stage and Bungie was too busy
and in the old days, I was a Westwood fanboy
Zeouterlimits
Member
Not an enemy, just a bit childish. Or at least in how you're verbalising it is making you come off.
Pretty much my point. Although I'm not sure you meant it to be that way. /shrug
I was an enormous Westwood fanboy too ;_)
Ok, so I love LOST. Would I be childish if I automatically disregarded a spinoff sitcom of LOST by another producer?
Deputy Moonman
Member
I'm not sure I understand what we're talking about here. The shotgun should have an advantage at close range. But I would never have called the shotgun a power weapon in CE. It clearly wasn't meant to be. The pistol and shotgun were just two very different weapons with their own advantages. The pistol was balanced against the shotgun with it's speed versus the power of the slower but stronger shotgun. So if you did find yourself up against someone with a shotgun at close range, there was a small chance you could come out of it alive.
While armor abilities can come in handy against a power weapon, it's not nearly enough that it actually lessens the gap between regular weapons and power weapons, especially since both people have armor abilities. So AA's get cancelled out and you're still left with a person that is using a power weapon and a person that is not. I think balance should come first between weapons, with armor abilites
completely scrapped from the sandbox
If a game is good enough, with its maps and weapons, map movement will be promoted automatically and for the right reasons (attacking the other team, map control, strategy, etc.), and not initiated by the feeling of an inadequate weapon. At the very least, there shouldn't be a need to run to a weapon. Combat Evolved clearly proved this and Bungie has been inexplicably afraid to return to this format ever since. Aside from the power ups and power weapons, and by power weapons I mean true power weapons that aren't littered across the map and have short duration not meant to be pewpew domination weapons for an entire match, all thought was toward immediately attacking the other team or setting up an attack. The actual game was being played, and rightly so. There was never the, "oh i need to go grab some other weapon because developers feel it's necessary to spawn me with garbage weapons in the game."
Oh, they knew what they were doing. There was a line of about ~15 people at my Gamestop for Wars, 100% for the LE and everyone was planning on playing the Mythic map packs first.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWaf8CVS6cg
Also, they used a great RTS developer. 343 was just in it's prototype stage and Bungie was too busyand in the old days, I was a Westwood fanboy
Dat cutscenes. It's the most impressive detail in Halo Wars.
Barrow Roll
Member
Uh, yes? You're not actually suggesting that it wouldn't be childish, are you? You're automatically blacklisting something out of a silly principle instead of giving it a fair shake and letting it stand on it's own merits.
Are you Croatian and write crazy video game fan fiction about how great Croatia is?
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