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Halo |OT7| You may leave, Juices. And take Team Downer with you.

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Wait, you're telling me you guys aren't just checking off Over's wish list he mailed to you guys?

Focus Rifle was better than the beam rifle in the beta, then they went and nerfed it like they do everything...still fun to harass BK's with it.

Thinking about how things played out after the Halo 3/Reach Betas and how the things we loved got nerfed, I'm actually glad Halo 4 didn't have a Public Beta..

Let us all experience the game for the first time when we buy it. Not play 2938047234 games to spoil our experience over a 2 week span lol only for many of the things that felt good to get changed.
 

TCKaos

Member
I honestly wish there wasn't a budget at all and we could just do whatever we want until the 360 shits on itself.

It'd be cool, but people need a hard-set limit that doesn't make their 360 convulse and seize. In the sake of user-friendliness. It needs to be idiot proof. That's pretty much the first rule of anything technological.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Thinking about how things played out after the Halo 3/Reach Betas and how the things we loved got nerfed, I'm actually glad Halo 4 didn't have a Public Beta..

Let us all experience the game for the first time when we buy it. Not play 2938047234 games to spoil our experience over a 2 week span lol only for many of the things that felt good to get changed.

monumenttosins.jpg
 

GhaleonEB

Member
In multiplayer though the Beam Rifle is sorely missed, I kind of enjoyed using the beam in campaign a lot more than I enjoyed using the focus rifle aswell.

I can kind of live with insta kill jackal snipers if it means the beam makes a return. I may just play campaign legendary once so compared to my multiplayer playtime I can live with the campaign issues
I found the difference between the sniper rifle and beam rifle, in function, to be so similar that I never missed it. It was neat to have a sniper that felt a bit different and had a slightly different firing cadence, but I don't think that small a difference is worth the pain that letting the enemy AI land instant headshots creates. I suppose they could just make it so they don't land headshots, but I still prefer the focus rifle.

I agree.

For campaign/firefight.

But my god is it a piece of shit in MP.
I have fun with it; for guys that suck at sniping like myself, it's easier to hose guys down. I do wish they'd kept the beta version of it, I still don't understand why it was nerfed.

Next page edit:

"Don't tell Sage, he'll nerf it!"

RIP Beta Focus Rifle.

Aye.
I didn't get into the beta, what is that?

Jump height in the beta was so low you couldn't clear that jump without difficulty.
 

TheOddOne

Member
It'd be cool, but people need a hard-set limit that doesn't make their 360 convulse and seize. In the sake of user-friendliness. It needs to be idiot proof. That's pretty much the first rule of anything technological.
The could create two modes/settings in Forge: "user-friendly" and "experienced".
 

Kujo

Member
I hate the long kill times in Reach, happened so much today, get their sheilds down and they just go hide behind corner/rock/armor lock

Also the game not giving me assists when I deserved them

Also the terrible spawns

Also the quiting, 2v8 BTB, not fun

Also the terrible spawns. I mean really, on Coag Gultch, if the other team has both Wraiths, snipers, whatever, and like above, it's 2v8, why does it continue to spawn us outside in plain sight, there's no way I'm getting to that base in one piece from these spawns.
 
http://halogaf.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/monumenttosins.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

While that is true, playing tons of games on Swordbase, Powerhouse and Boneyard made those maps very boring for me when the game first came out, not to mention the fresh new feeling of a Halo game was already experienced (in an incomplete form). The magntitude of the negatives outweigh the positives IMO.
 

Tawpgun

Member
While that is true, playing tons of games on Swordbase, Powerhouse and Boneyard made those maps very boring for me when the game first came out, not to mention the fresh new feeling of a Halo game was already experienced (in an incomplete form). The magntitude of the negatives outweigh the positives IMO.

Disagree.

Problems with the beta that got fixed.

12 shot DMR. Intentionally.
Jump Height/Movement speed.
Melee was borked.
Headshot hitbox was borked.
Armor Lock was more OP than it was at launch
Reticle too light.

I think thats all I remember.

Negatives from the beta:
RIP Microwave Gun
RIP Pistol
RIP Elites
 
Disagree.

Problems with the beta that got fixed.

12 shot DMR. Intentionally.
Jump Height/Movement speed.
Melee was borked.
Headshot hitbox was borked.
Armor Lock was more OP than it was at launch
Reticle too light.

I think thats all I remember.

Negatives from the beta:
RIP Microwave Gun
RIP Pistol
RIP Elites

This is obviously all assuming that WE are the reasons these things got fixed and not the thousands of people who play the multiple builds of the game lol.. Don't forget, there were features that didn't make it in time for the Beta that were already fixes to problems, like the reticle thing for instance. Also don't forget how many times Bungie has stated that the purpose for the Public Beta is to stress-test the servers, not really for anything else.

Still doesn't outweigh spoiling the new game experience IMO, so to each his/her own :]
 
To add some more:

Disagree.

Problems with the beta that got fixed.

12 shot DMR. Intentionally.
Jump Height/Movement speed. Fixed is a strong word for this.
Melee was borked. Bungie already fixed this before the Beta hit.
Headshot hitbox was borked.
Armor Lock was more OP than it was at launch
Reticle too light.
Acceleration of Jetpack was slowed
Grenades nerfed a bit


I think thats all I remember.

Negatives from the beta:
RIP Microwave Gun
RIP Pistol
RIP Elites
RIP Shotgun
RIP Plasma Repeater
RIP AR not being an bullet magnetism machine
RIP hitboxes not being the size of Texas
RIP Plasma Pistol being 5 shields and 5 health instead of 3 and 7
They lengthened the amount of time it takes to switch weapons, which I hate
 

Overdoziz

Banned
While we're still (somewhat) on the subject of Forge. I'd like to point out some stuff that annoys me about Reach's objects. Here's a list of what I'd like to see changed in Halo 4. It's most likely already too late (especially since it seems that 343 is copying objects straight from Reach) but I'd still like it said.

Right here you can see the 1x1 flat, 2x2 flat, 3x3 flat and 4x4 flat next to each other. You can clearly see that they don't have the same thickness. This may seem like a minor thing but it can certainly become a hurdle when creating maps. More consistency wouldn't hurt.

Here you can see the corner pieces. Again, there's no consistency. The 4x4 has a railing on the outer side, the 2x2 has no railing and the 45 degree corner has a glass railing on the outside and a small stick on the inside.

This is the glass cover piece. It's rarely used on any maps mostly because it can increase framerate issues but also because the object is so awkward it hardly ever fits anywhere. Please just make it a simple square window. That way it's actually easy to implement it in your map.

More consistency problems. On the left you see the window object. It's a fairly small window with no glass in it at all. Then we you go to the window, double piece suddenly ~2.3 times the size, has glass and and entirely different aesthetic look. Wouldn't it make more sense if the window, double piece was just the window piece but longer?

I have no idea what happened here. You go from a door to a double door which is just the top part of a door or something. Why not just take the door piece and make it twice as wide?

Ah, the Brace, Large piece. Often used on maps but causes problem because of the tail-end. The tail-end is practically useless and it turns an extremely useful object into a decent one. Please just remove the tail.

Back to consistency problems. On the picture above you can see that aside from the 2x2, short and 2x2 block the objects look widely different. It goes from being made entirely out of glass to a block with a glass circle and then to a block made 1/3rd out of glass. Making them all have a glass circle would be better.

Here you can see how the 2x1 flat piece differs a lot from the 3x1 and 5x1 (why there's no 4x1, I don't know). It looks extremely out of place.

This is probably the worst offender in regards to consistency. The walls are all the same except for the wall, corner piece which isn't even close to resembling the other wall pieces.

So the Ramp XL is 2.4 units long. It really wouldn't hurt anyone to at least extend it to 2.5 units or more preferably 3. It can become really cumbersome to work with a piece that's 2.4 units long and doesn't really fit in anywhere.

Again a consistency problem. On the right you've got the 2x1 ramp and the 2x1 ramp shallow. Both those objects are completely solid. Then you get to the 2x2 ramp and the bottom part of the ramp is gone, the inside is hollow. Where'd that come from? Now you have to fill that up when you use the piece in certain situations.

Lastly, there's the wall coliseum piece. For some reason it seems to be stuck on a different grid then most other pieces when using coordinates on the Y-axis. For example, you can't line up the coliseum wall and block pieces. There will always be a slight height difference between the two. This is fairly easy to fix by manually raising or lowering the wall but it's still a bit annoying at times.

I'd also like to mentioned that overall in Reach way too many objects use glass. It creates a really busy look overall. I personally think it would be better if more objects had textures like the 2x4 block or the Brace Large. Make things a bit easier to look at. Less glass also means less places for lights to bounce off of so it would be (a bit) easier on the engine.


Now these problems on their own aren't that much of a deal but too often in Forge I wonder what the designers were thinking when they created certain objects. Especially in the context of the other existing objects. The lack of consistency in objects size can make it harder for Forger to create sleek maps and the lack of consistency in textures can make maps look really messy. With more objects that look similar you can create a more coherent look for your map which is usually much easier on the eye.
 
Pro-pipe grenades detonate on anyone at any distance.

True. I was very upset with the pro-pipe at the launch, but honestly I think the change was an okay one once I got used to the new pro-pipe, as it still destroys worlds with a good player.

One that I forgot to mention that is huge to me: They lengthened the amount of time it takes to switch weapons, which I hate.
 

m23

Member
Just played Super Slayer on Sword base, our team had 26 kills before the other team got their first and than they rage quit. Best game ever

Although I do love destroying other teams, I find competitive games much more thrilling and enjoyable. Matches that come down to the last couple kills are the ones which are the most memorable and fun. Matches where we are completely obliterating the other teams just end up being boring and slow.

I do however see the satisfaction of making another team quit out.

On another note......the day has finally come, I will be watching Dark Knight Rises in a few hours.
 

Computron

Member
9Suip.jpg

[. . .]
(Are those RGB arrows the magnet points or are they just used for the building the model?)


It is most likely the magnets pivot points.

R=X
G=Y
B=Z

(Although, Maya has y as up toward the sky, sooo uhhh.... wtf?)

I guess that means the magnets will be able to snap rotation as well as translation.


I think it has something to do with the LOD/imposter systems needing to render all objects as low-res gray blocks at a distance. (I'm sure Fyre understands it better.) I just hope they've found a way around that.

Hmmm, that never occurred to me but it makes sense given that the imposter models are automatically precumputed/generated. The way it is in reach, imposters could have color shading at the vertex level so it wasn't very detailed and since it was pre-generated it couldnt be dynamic.

I am still not holding out for fully color-able pieces because that not only requires pretty big engineering changes but also content becomes much harder to effectively create for the artists with dynamic coloring in mind. simply tinting the pieces like in most Trials peices is UGLY.

[. . .]
It'd also be nice if more vehicles than the Mongoose supported being colored this time

I think that's within the realm of possibility. At least I know how I would do it.

If that is a PC Forge Client that would be really awesome. I can't see why the magnet points would need that many arrows. I'd say they are for modelling purposes.

Maybe Computron and other 3D artists could chime in. I've only worked with Blender for a few weeks.

3 dimensions = 3 arrows

It's maya dude. The most prevalent 3d suite this side of 3ds Max.

All the Halo tools for making the game have been PC. It's been mentioned before during the Halo 3 era that Bungie had a "Forge+" that only they could use to make variants (hence the ability to remove energy doors and the Elephants), and it's been mentioned otherwise by both 343 and Bungie that they have to send submitted maps through a special process/tool to be usable in Reach matchmaking.

Interesting bit about them converting cartographer submissions.

It'd be easy, you just create the level in maya and then save it as a .map and put it on a flash drive and bam.

Forge maps are not made assembled inside of Maya.

They make the assets inside of maya and import them into their engine as tags. then they assemble them inside of another app called sapien.
I'm not exactly sure of their current system but it most likely has not changed from what I just described to a completely Maya driven pipeline for a number of reasons, not the least of which is half of the artists using other tools, 3ds max/XSI/modo.
They have had Guerilla and tags since Halo 1 and I don't think they will go and rewrite their whole system just for Halo 4.

That doesn't mean they couldn't make something like what your saying, but its highly unlikely given their audience, platform and diminishing returns.

There are loads of generic small pieces from little blocks to humongous floor tiles. These big set pieces are for amateur tinkerers and hobbyists. Serious mapmakers might be able to use them, but that's not really who they're aimed at. The game and it's components are built with multiple audiences in mind, and frankly this big piece didn't cost the more discrete items any flexibility.

I love using the big specific pieces in interesting ways. like flipping the 3 story tower on its side. It looks cool and the other parts can be hidden inside other structures. Or taking the walkway large an flipping it upside down and adding matching platforms.





Do Halo: Reach Screenshots still upload somewhere? I wanna put up some screens.
 
True. I was very upset with the pro-pipe at the launch, but honestly I think the change was an okay one once I got used to the new pro-pipe, as it still destroys worlds with a good player.

One that I forgot to mention that is huge to me: They lengthened the amount of time it takes to switch weapons, which I hate.

Then they go and remove it from the game.. I just don't understand some of the damn decisions these devs make! Why make a useful powerful useless/remove it? Goes back to that philosophy of nerfing the areas that worked to "balance" it out with weaker crap, instead of just buffing the weak shit. Why they felt it was necessary to nerf the Plasma Repeater from the Beta is beyond me.. etc

Also, the thing about switching weapons OMFG! I completely agree and I feel like no one understands why that kinda shit bothers people so much! My fingers/thought processing move so frikkin fast that it makes it frustrating to have to "slow down" in order to be successful in a game. Did you also find it annoying to switch to a Gravity Hammer/Sword in Halo 3 in tight situations because of how long it took to equip?

That thing was a BEAST. I don't get a lot of Exterminations, but I got one in the Reach Beta:

http://files2.bungie.org/dv/blueberry_exterm/

LOL! RIP Plasma Launcher
 
True. I was very upset with the pro-pipe at the launch, but honestly I think the change was an okay one once I got used to the new pro-pipe, as it still destroys worlds with a good player.

One that I forgot to mention that is huge to me: They lengthened the amount of time it takes to switch weapons, which I hate.
yep, this is one that really upset me on launch. The direct hit stuff was nice.

Also, I can attest to the destroys worlds part, once Over got it in our tourney match the game was over. It was just no contest.


So... did Over just complain about all the pieces looking too different? As if maps don't look similar as it is.
it was more about them not being consistent enough
 
You're probably just mad you got your ass whooped on Uncaged.

Lol


Lol

Also you know, not having a redundant sniper rifle.

Although I seemed to do better with the beam rifle in H3 for some reason.

Faster ROF, therefore different, therefore not redundant.

A big turn off for me with Halo's Forge in regard to making original maps is the fact you can't do it with a mouse and keyboard. Using the monitor with a pad is cumbersome at best for creating fresh play spaces. PC to Xbox transfer would be amazing.
 

Ramirez

Member
First game of the day, I get two privates who go -25 combined. So true what was said yesterday about the game doing everything in its power to make you not want to play it, unbelievable.
 
So... did Over just complain about all the pieces looking too different? As if maps don't look similar as it is.

Come on now, his post was actually really damn good. That's honestly all you took from it? Consistency in design, look and function across similar objects should exist, he proved it doesn't. Something as simple as that makes Forging unintuitive.
 
First game of the day, I get two privates who go -25 combined. So true what was said yesterday about the game doing everything in its power to make you not want to play it, unbelievable.
Yep. The impetus to my uncaged statement yesterday was the game giving us the option of Snipers on Uncaged or Snipers Pro on Uncaged, against a team of 4 inheritors from Spain. Who of course had host. And then one of our teammates quit out so we got spawn camped.
 

op_ivy

Fallen Xbot (cannot continue gaining levels in this class)
Come on now, his post was actually really damn good. That's honestly all you took from it? Consistency in design, look and function across similar objects should exist, he proved it doesn't. Something as simple as that makes Forging unintuitive.

yeah, terrific post - but now i'll see all those flaws that i may have otherwise overlooked every time i'm in forge
 

Computron

Member
[. . .]

Now these problems on their own aren't that much of a deal but too often in Forge I wonder what the designers were thinking when they created certain objects. Especially in the context of the other existing objects. The lack of consistency in objects size can make it harder for Forger to create sleek maps and the lack of consistency in textures can make maps look really messy. With more objects that look similar you can create a more coherent look for your map which is usually much easier on the eye.


I suspect the lack of quality modular assets is due to the fact that the Halo engine has never had a particularly 'instancing friendly' environment art pipeline like some other engines, namely Unreal Engine.
Everything was always built uniquely from stitched BSP rather than assembled from static meshes.

This might contribute to a lack of experience with making great modular assets at Bungie.

Hell, they even had quantization errors in their forge file format making all the large coliseum wall pieces crooked if you try to rotate them and use them as a floor.

Gears of war has some of the most modular and awesome assets of any game.

I hope 343 doesn't make the same mistake. We haven't yet seen practically any forge pieces.
 
long post about forge with pics

damn that's a good post. these are all things that annoy me when trying to forge something. the biggest problem with the lack of consistency is that all the pieces do not fit together.

then you go and look at Sandbox

and everything looks consistent, all of those ramps, and blocks, and tunnels match up to eachother almost perfectly. also, most of the textures are very similar, so when they are all phased together the group of objects don't look like a bunch of random objects smacked together.
 
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