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Halo |OT8| A Salt on the Control Room

P

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
Trueskill...

ibziDpQbNcUo6p.gif
 
G

Gunnerdude

Neo Member
Rand0m TAG said:
Wtf lol, trueskill is like the bat signal
Click to expand...

Do you think Hired can Ctrl + F the internet for "Trueskill" and get all the negitive posts about it? Because I'm starting to believe it.

HiredN00bs said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a mathematical statistician. Please, elaborate on its defenciencies and the improvements you suggest. Just for everyone else, here's a refresher:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

Oh, and sorry for assuming that you were yet another ignorant person making a baseless attack founded in some misguided anecdotal bullshit.


You just can't make this stuff up, folks.
Click to expand...

Hired strikes back! I actually love that post about trueskill, I have used it to confuse my friends and suprise my enemies, no one can focus on the game when you're spitting out Math Knowledge Bombs!
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
ArchedThunder said:
The True Skill system does not work.
Click to expand...
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a mathematical statistician. Please, elaborate on its defenciencies and the improvements you suggest. Just for everyone else, here's a refresher:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

Oh, and sorry for assuming that you were yet another ignorant person making a baseless attack founded in some misguided anecdotal bullshit.

ArchedThunder said:
I wouldn't mind a ranking system that is based around wins.
Click to expand...
You just can't make this stuff up, folks.
 
S

StalkerUKCG

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a mathematical statistician. Please, elaborate on its defenciencies and the improvements you suggest. Just for everyone else, here's a refresher:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

Oh, and sorry for assuming that you were yet another ignorant person making a baseless attack founded in some misguided anecdotal bullshit.


You just can't make this stuff up, folks.
Click to expand...

Who pissed in your cereal?
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a mathematical statistician. Please, elaborate on its defenciencies and the improvements you suggest. Just for everyone else, here's a refresher:

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/

Oh, and sorry for assuming that you were yet another ignorant person making a baseless attack founded in some misguided anecdotal bullshit.
Click to expand...

Oh wow, Microsoft talking highly about something they created? I NEVER WOULD HAVE GUESSED!
The system was flawed, the only thing you had to do to see this was create a second account or get rank locked, and don't say "Rank locking doesn't exist" because Bungie outright confirmed it did.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
ArchedThunder said:
Oh wow, Microsoft talking highly about something they created? I NEVER WOULD HAVE GUESSED!
The system was flawed, the only thing you had to do to see this was create a second account or get rank locked, and don't say "Rank locking doesn't exist" because Bungie outright confirmed it did.
Click to expand...
Rank locking is the system working. I'm not going to insult you any further because it is counterproductive. Suffice it to say, and I don't mean this to be derogatory in any way, but you are ignorant on this topic. Read the reference materials, they are a scientific documentation, not a biased game review.
 
P

Poker Face

Member
.shin said:
TrueSkilled is flawed, so what?
Click to expand...

so use the elo system instead.

wwm0nkey said:
Doesn't CS:GO do Elo Ranking too but keeps it all in the background where only you can see your rank?

Would not mind a system like working behind a fake EXP rank.
Click to expand...

i know cs go does use it, im not sure if its invisible or not. i always had great matches in halo 2, so id take an invisible elo over invisible trueskill anyday.
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Rank locking is the system working. I'm not going to insult you any further because it is counterproductive. Suffice it to say, and I don't mean this to be derogatory in any way, but you are ignorant on this topic. Read the reference materials, they are a scientific documentation, not a biased game review.
Click to expand...

No, rank locking is a flaw. If I can get past the rank I was at on a second account in less than a week, there is a problem. Trueskill, or at least the version used in Halo 3 rewards people who are good right away and not those who get progressively better or are bad for a long period of time and get better. I was terrible when Halo 3 came out but after about a year I got okay at the game. I was rank locked at 35. I created a second account and got to 40. The system does not work.

Pok3R Fac3D said:
so use the elo system instead.
Click to expand...
How does this system work exactly? I didn't get to play very much Halo 2 matchmaking.
 
G

Gunnerdude

Neo Member
ArchedThunder said:
No, rank locking is a flaw. If I can get past the rank I was at on a second account in less than a week, there is a problem. Trueskill, or at least the version used in Halo 3 rewards people who are good right away and not those who get progressively better or are bad for a long period of time and get better. I was terrible when Halo 3 came out but after about a year I got okay at the game. I was rank locked at 35. I created a second account and got to 40. The system does not work.
Click to expand...

Ah but the sample size of your games on the second account was much smaller with the skill being played at a higher level.

Playing a years worth of games versus a few weeks makes it a completely different situation.

On the 35 account you would pretty much need to drop a consistant 20 games as the number one player to move up (using the chart and the sample size of 20 games for 4v4 in hired's post) and I'm sure there are other factors in play as well that I'm just to lazy to look up.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
Pok3R Fac3D said:
so use the elo system instead.



i know cs go does use it, im not sure if its invisible or not. i always had great matches in halo 2, so id take an invisible elo over invisible trueskill anyday.
Click to expand...
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/trueskill/details.aspx

In particular, the ELO ranking system has been used successfully by a variety of leagues organised around two-player games, such as world football league, the US Chess Federation or the World Chess Federation, and a variety of others. In video games many of these leagues have game modes with more than two players per match. ELO is not designed to work under these circumstances. In fact, no popular skill-based ranking system is available to support these games. Many one-off ranking systems have been built and are in use for these games, but none of them is general enough to be applied to such a great variety of games.
Click to expand...

Similarly to the ELO system, in the mean skill update equation the winner gets a multiple of v((μwinner-μloser)/c,ε/c) added to the mean skill and the loser gets a multiple of v((μwinner-μloser)/c,ε/c) subtracted from the mean skill. However, in contrast to ELO the weighting factors are roughly proportional to the uncertainty of the winner/loser vs. the total sum of uncertainties (2β2 is the uncertainty due to the performance variation around the skill and σ2winner+σ2loser is the uncertainty about their true skills). Hence, only if Alice and Bob have the same uncertainty, the TrueSkill ranking system's mean skill update equation reduces to an ELO update equation. Note that the TrueSkill ranking system's update equation for the mean skill is thus not guaranteed to be zero sum.
Click to expand...
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
Gunnerdude said:
Ah but the sample size of your games on the second account was much smaller with the skill being played at a higher level.

Playing a years worth of games versus a few weeks makes it a completely different situation.

On the 35 account you would pretty much need to drop a consistant 20 games as the number one player to move up (using the chart and the sample size of 20 games for 4v4 in hired's post) and I'm sure there are other factors in play as well that I'm just to lazy to look up.
Click to expand...

Exactly, showing that it doesn't work properly. It isn't a true representation of skill and is flawed as a ranking system. If you can't make a ranking system that truly shows skill don't bother having it based around "skill".
 
K

Karl2177

Member
ArchedThunder said:
No, rank locking is a flaw. If I can get past the rank I was at on a second account in less than a week, there is a problem. Trueskill, or at least the version used in Halo 3 rewards people who are good right away and not those who get progressively better or are bad for a long period of time and get better. I was terrible when Halo 3 came out but after about a year I got okay at the game. I was rank locked at 35. I created a second account and got to 40. The system does not work.


How does this system work exactly? I didn't get to play very much Halo 2 matchmaking.
Click to expand...
Rank locking is not a flaw with TrueSkill, bud.
 
G

Gunnerdude

Neo Member
ArchedThunder said:
It shows that it isn't "Trueskill". That fact that you can get rank locked and then have a higher Trueskill rating on a second account shows it isn't an accurate representation of skill and is just a silly number.
Click to expand...

But it is all in the math of how that "skill" is calculated. one game on an account with only 100 games played is going to have a much bigger effect on the over all skill calculation then one game on an account with 5000 games played.

The more games you play the more samples of your performance there are available to the system.

The best way I can describe it is K/D ratio. If my K/D is 2.0 and I think that isn't good enough and I want a 4.0 K/D after playing 1000 games I am going to have to A) increase the number of kills per game I get while keeping a constant or lower total number of deaths per game, or B) Have a sting of annomallies where I'm dropping perfections on kids that when added up over a large period of time slowly push my K/D towards 4.0.

The more I play, the harder it is to increase my K/D because my sample size of Kills and Deaths gets larger and larger and you get to see a clearer picture of what my actual K/D ratio really should be through either consistant game play or constantly improving gameplay.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
ArchedThunder said:
Exactly, showing that it doesn't work properly. It isn't a true representation of skill and is flawed as a ranking system. If you can't make a ranking system that truly shows skill don't bother having it based around "skill".
Click to expand...
Halo 3 didn't display your actual TrueSkill. First of all, TrueSkill doesn't start you at the bottom of the ranking, it starts you in the middle. So if we're going from 1-50, that would be 25. Did you start at 25 in Halo 3?

Secondly, TrueSkill values aren't integers from 1-50. They are pairs of more precise values that represent skill ranking and uncertainty, respectively. You could slingshot up to a very uncertain 50 by beating certain highly skilled players. But you won't stay there if you keep playing unless you're actually top tier.

Your criticism of Halo 3's system is certainly valid, it had problems. But TrueSkill is a general system that is a backbone, a tool that is implemented by developers. It is not at fault for Halo 3 having an exploitable investment system, nor Halo: Reach's poor skill matching. It is pure statistical mathematics, just like the ELO system from which it was derived.
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
Gunnerdude said:
But it is all in the math of how that "skill" is calculated. one game on an account with only 100 games played is going to have a much bigger effect on the over all skill calculation then one game on an account with 5000 games played.

The more games you play the more samples of your performance there are available to the system.

The best way I can describe it is K/D ratio. If my K/D is 2.0 and I think that isn't good enough and I want a 4.0 K/D after playing 1000 games I am going to have to A) increase the number of kills per game I get while keeping a constant or lower total number of deaths per game, or B) Have a sting of annomallies where I'm dropping perfections on kids that when added up over a large period of time slowly push my K/D towards 4.0.

The more I play, the harder it is to increase my K/D because my sample size of Kills and Deaths gets larger and larger and you get to see a clearer picture of what my actual K/D ratio really should be through either consistant game play or constantly improving gameplay.
Click to expand...

But here is the thing, it is trying to evaluate an overall skill when it shouldn't. By making it overall it doesn't accurately reflect your current skill level.
 
D

DesertFox

Member
I loved the ELO system in Halo 2 - there was so much more incentive to win a match, and it was so satisfying when you did, especially against a team of higher skill.

With Halo 3, it just felt like a grind
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Halo 3 didn't display your actual TrueSkill. First of all, TrueSkill doesn't start you at the bottom of the ranking, it starts you in the middle. So if we're going from 1-50, that would be 25. Did you start at 25 in Halo 3?

Secondly, TrueSkill values aren't integers from 1-50. They are pairs of more precise values that represent skill ranking and uncertainty, respectively. You could slingshot up to a very uncertain 50 by beating certain highly skilled players. But you won't stay there if you keep playing unless you're actually top tier.

Your criticism of Halo 3's system is certainly valid, it had problems. But TrueSkill is a general system that is a backbone, a tool that is implemented by developers. It is not at fault for Halo 3 having a exploitable investment system, nor Halo: Reach's poor skill matching. It is pure statistical mathematics, just like the ELO system from which it was derived.
Click to expand...
And my point is, as a ranking system Trueskill doesn't work. It's fine for pairing people up for matches(except in reach but that is a completely different story) but when it comes to being used for a ranking system it is terrible.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
ArchedThunder said:
And my point is, as a ranking system Trueskill doesn't work. It's fine for pairing people up for matches(except in reach but that is a completely different story) but when it comes to being used for a ranking system it is terrible.
Click to expand...
You just have no idea what you are talking about.

Karl2177 said:
... Ranking system or progression system?
Click to expand...
MAYBE this is what he is confusing, I don't know. It's tremendously annoying to have a discussion where someone is making such specific assertive statements that are factually incorrect.
 
T

Tawpgun

Member
ncsuDuncan said:
Sitting next to Barrow Roll and heckfu at a bar table. We all looked at the salt shaker on the table and laughed. "This one's for DownerGAF."
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tumblr_m9e23k4vLA1rttiwgo1_500.gif


Ajemsuhgao said:
Have you actually seen how Bungie broke down Halo 3's materials? It was...interesting. Compared to Halo 2, at least.

XmDwol.jpg


nA3vN.jpg


I thought this was a decent balance between beta and final Halo 3 build. It's shiny, but certain maps don't bleed through as much as they did in beta.

The Halo 3 beta...from what I remember, had a weird thing about going overboard with detail maps. Even details bumps were super pronounce. I distinctly remember zooming in on the carbine in the Halo 3 beta, and it used scratch detail bumps, but also used the visor cubemaps they've used since Halo 1.
Click to expand...

Kinda funny to think about how in Halo 2 you get, literally, a brand new set of armor at the start of the game, and its all kinds of scratched up.

You crash land onto Earth riding a piece of forerunner metal, and you have some dents on your right bicep plate. Everything else is polished and spotless.
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
You just have no idea what you are talking about.

MAYBE this is what he is confusing, I don't know. It's tremendously annoying to have a discussion where someone is making such specific assertive statements that are factually incorrect.
Click to expand...

I am calling it a ranking system as in your "military rank" in game. So yes, progression system.
This came off of some one saying they wanted the Halo 4 ranking system to be skill based and not EXP based, I thought it was pretty obvious to tell what I was talking about if you were paying attention.
 
H

HiredN00bs

Member
ArchedThunder said:
I am calling it a ranking system as in your "military rank" in game. So yes, progression system.
Click to expand...
Ranking (based on skill) means sorting players out from least skilled to most skilled. TrueSkill does this effectively across a tremendous variety of competitive games on Xbox LIVE using sound mathematical principles, built on the shoulders of an already proven ELO system. Please, no more fire-and-forget TrueSkill bashing or I will come in here and make everyone take a math class next time, for reals.
 
G

Gunnerdude

Neo Member
ArchedThunder said:
I am calling it a ranking system as in your "military rank" in game. So yes, progression system.
Click to expand...

But thats not what Trueskill is........


pro·gres·sion
   [pruh-gresh-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
the act of progressing; forward or onward movement.

2.
a passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence.


The Reach "ranking" system is a progression system..... always moving forward and onward until one meets an end goal and the progression stops.

Ranking

HiredN00bs said:
I will come in here and make everyone take a math class next time, for reals.
Click to expand...

Looking forward to it :) (back to work fixing dumb people's computers!)
 
A

ArchedThunder

Banned
HiredN00bs said:
Ranking (based on skill) means sorting players out from least skilled to most skilled. TrueSkill does this effectively across a tremendous variety of competitive games on Xbox LIVE using sound mathematical principles, built on the shoulders of an already proven ELO system. Please, no more fire-and-forget TrueSkill bashing or I will come in here and make everyone take a math class next time, for reals.
Click to expand...

I was bashing it for the way that it was used in the "progression" system in Halo 3. You should have payed attention to how this started.
Gunnerdude said:
But thats not what Trueskill is........


pro·gres·sion
   [pruh-gresh-uhn] Show IPA

noun
1.
the act of progressing; forward or onward movement.

2.
a passing successively from one member of a series to the next; succession; sequence.


The Reach "ranking" system is a progression system..... always moving forward and onward until one meets an end goal and the progression stops.

Ranking
Click to expand...

Most people call the progression system in shooters "ranking" systems because you move through military ranks. I was calling it a ranking system because that is how this whole thing started, and I always call it a ranking system. In terms of shooters I call things like Trueskill a skill system or a pairing system.
 
Aggrotek

Aggrotek

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Ranking (based on skill) means sorting players out from least skilled to most skilled. TrueSkill does this effectively across a tremendous variety of competitive games on Xbox LIVE using sound mathematical principles, built on the shoulders of an already proven ELO system. Please, no more fire-and-forget TrueSkill bashing or I will come in here and make everyone take a math class next time, for reals.
Click to expand...

I hate math.
 
G

Gunnerdude

Neo Member
ArchedThunder said:
Most people call the progression system in shooters "ranking" systems because you move through military ranks. I was calling it a ranking system because that is how this whole thing started, and I always call it a ranking system. In terms of shooters I call things like Trueskill a skill system or a pairing system.
Click to expand...

Understood, now I will drop it for Aggrotek's sake :)

ArchedThunder said:
Also Rush Limbaugh sucks.
Click to expand...

He grows on you :) funny thing about Rush, he is an entertainer... people don't seem to grasp that.
 
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