Support NeoGAF

[Gui_PT]

PM me if you want to do the picture thing. I have a map all forged up with 8 falcons already (max allowed) We can discuss ideas (even though I know mine is better)

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I ain't in the US, as a lot of us aren't.

Its not a brilliant program, but it is actually available to those of us in the UK aswell. Just google microsoft rewards and when you sign in with your gamertag you will see that there are a few surveys and things you can do for a bunch of MS points. You will also get 100MS points back on your first purchase and the 5% for purchases in march.

So you can sort of reduce the price of the map pack by a small chunk. If you cant afford the MS points you cant really take advantage of the rewards and if you can afford the MS points im guessing 150 MS points isnt going to make a big difference. So the program seems a little useless.

MS points in exchange for gamerscore next time please Microsoft!

 

[Steelyuhas]

Those of you that are xbox rewards members, which all of you should be, listen up! You get 5% back on all marketplace purchases in March. So that means that you get 40 points back when you purchase the Defiant map pack!

Oh nice, should get 40 for that, and I'll probably get the new AC: Brotherhood DLC, so that will net me another 40 points back.

Back to Reach, the banshee is so obviously broken in this game, it literally ruins games of big team. You spawn, you will die from the banshee, you get in any other vehicle, you will die from the banshee. It is ridiculous.

Also, how is Paradiso even considered a map? Just straight awful.

 

[Tashi]

Former Bungie doods who left and formed Moonshot Games finally announced their first game. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423728

I figured some of you might be interested.

 

[jg4xchamp]

I remember there being a Reach thread(I used to lurk) with a lot of forge maps made by gaf people. Was wondering where I could find it. Also anyone know how to get the more updated versions of each map? ala arena zealot or asylum with the killzone if you go too high

 

[Falagard]

That sounds kind of like Far Cry 2's editor and dont get me wrong this would be epic but the map filesizes would be huge. It would be impractical as something that could be used to add maps and variants into matchmaking. I sort of like how 'lite' Forge is as it allows for a bit of versatility in how its used.

Tunavi I agree 100% man, the beta pistol was so much fun lol. Its kind of crap now though, bloody AR users.

The map sizes do not need to be huge, there are ways of storing only minimal information. You probably do not know from a technical perspective what is possible, but I've done a ton of work with map editing.

For example, you don't necessarily need to store terrain geometry or even heightmaps, only points where the terrain was edited. Starting with a basic flat terrain, as the user raises or lowers a point of terrain, you store a single piece of data saying "the user raised or lowered the terrain at this point by this amount". Even if the user raises or lowers 2000 points on the terrain, that's a miniscule amount of data (let's say, 20kbs). Terrain caves can be done using metaballs with the same type of information stored (additive or subtractive spheres used to tunnel into the terrain or add overhangs).

See this thread in relation to overhang terrain:

http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32486

Note that I was an active enough member on the Ogre 3D engine forums that when that was posted someone commented "Holy smokes. Just wait until Falagard notices this. He is going to freak" because I did a lot of terrain work with the engine.

Basically, the amount of data required to store fully edited terrains could be made small easily with modifications to the engine.

 

[Devin Olsen]

PM me if you want to do the picture thing. I have a map all forged up with 8 falcons already (max allowed) We can discuss ideas (even though I know mine is better)

Awe You guys are doing it today?

I sincerely hope something goes terribly wrong and this ends up getting postponed until tomorrow afternoon

 

[Gui_PT]

Awe You guys are doing it today?

I sincerely hope something goes terribly wrong and this ends up getting postponed until tomorrow afternoon

No, not doing it today. Doing it tomorrow. Just want a list of people that are interested

 

[bobs...onGaf]

The map sizes do not need to be huge, there are ways of storing only minimal information. You probably do not know from a technical perspective what is possible, but I've done a ton of work with map editing.

For example, you don't necessarily need to store terrain geometry or even heightmaps, only points where the terrain was edited. Starting with a basic flat terrain, as the user raises or lowers a point of terrain, you store a single piece of data saying "the user raised or lowered the terrain at this point by this amount". Even if the user raises or lowers 2000 points on the terrain, that's a miniscule amount of data (let's say, 20kbs). Terrain caves can be done using metaballs with the same type of information stored (additive or subtractive spheres used to tunnel into the terrain or add overhangs).

See this thread in relation to overhang terrain:

http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=32486

Note that I was an active enough member on the Ogre 3D engine forums that when that was posted someone commented "Holy smokes. Just wait until Falagard notices this. He is going to freak" because I did a lot of terrain work with the engine.

Basically, the amount of data required to store fully edited terrains could be made small easily with modifications to the engine.

Im obviously not as experianced in that area as you but I am a programmer (a pretty shitty one ) and have a understanding of how things work. With something simple like Forge its easy to envision that they can simply store the data as co-ordinates. Hell to really oversimplify it for example im guessing all you would need is its X co-ordinate, its Y co-ordinate, its yaw and then a tag to tell you which forge peice it is.

With a more detailed terrain editor wouldnt you need that stuff for literally every millimetre of editable terrain? With forge it just needs to store data about forge items, with a fully blown terrain editor info about every bit of terrain would need to be stored?

I know your saying that this information is minimal, but with a more complicated map im guessing your looking at least in the megabytes, which would make forge impractical for its current uses as a simple map editor for matchmaking.

Dont get me wrong I probably stupidly missed or misunderstood a part of your post but as a basic tool to play around with forge seems like its brilliant. I get the feeling it was initially just meant as a tool to help balance weapon placement, and then turned into something that, while quite simplistic, can be used to create whole new geometry. Its so practical that these forge maps can be used easily in custom games and matchmaking without everyone having to wait for a lengthy download to go through.

I know your saying more traditional map editors can be pretty small, but im guessing even with those its impossible to get anywhere close to how small forge maps are? As much as a Far Cry esque editor is so much better than Forge, forge seems so much more practical in actual gameplay use terms.

EDIT: I kinda went on a tangeant in my post. - Basically are typical terrain editors small enough to be used like forge is? If so WTF BUNGLE but im guessing Bungie made the smart choice with keeping forge simplistic.

 

[The Librarian]

Former Bungie doods who left and formed Moonshot Games finally announced their first game. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423728

I figured some of you might be interested.

Hope the game does well for them.

I remember there being a Reach thread(I used to lurk) with a lot of forge maps made by gaf people. Was wondering where I could find it. Also anyone know how to get the more updated versions of each map? ala arena zealot or asylum with the killzone if you go too high

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=407389

 

[jg4xchamp]

Thank you

 

[Falagard]

With a more detailed terrain editor wouldnt you need that stuff for literally every millimetre of editable terrain? With forge it just needs to store data about forge items, with a fully blown terrain editor info about every bit of terrain would need to be stored?

I know your saying that this information is minimal, but with a more complicated map im guessing your looking at least in the megabytes, which would make forge impractical for its current uses as a simple map editor for matchmaking..

You wouldn't need to store every millimeter. Imagine, for example, that you can't edit the terrain directly. Instead, you place a terrain influence marker, which allows you to change a circumference value and an influence amount. You can move that marker up and down, which modifies the terrain. All you are allowed to do is place these markers, change the circumference, and influence amount to edit the terrain.

Then, for the "metaballs" you can place spheres, change their size, and specify whether they add or subtract from the terrain. The spheres can be used to dig caves or place overhanging complex terrain.

See?

 

[urk]

I move to make Falagard's GAF tag "Metaballs."

 

[GhaleonEB]

I move to make Falagard's GAF tag "Metaballs."

Son of a bitch. I just launched food all over my keyboard. :lol

 

[MrBig]

I remember there being a Reach thread(I used to lurk) with a lot of forge maps made by gaf people. Was wondering where I could find it. Also anyone know how to get the more updated versions of each map? ala arena zealot or asylum with the killzone if you go too high

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=26330566#post26330566
Just play mm and save the new maps from your recent maps list.

 

[Karl2177]

EDIT: I kinda went on a tangeant in my post. - Basically are typical terrain editors small enough to be used like forge is? If so WTF BUNGLE but im guessing Bungie made the smart choice with keeping forge simplistic.

Ever use Star Editor for SC2? I'd like something simplistic like that, and it doesn't take up too much space. Heck, even something like H2V's overly complex system would be fine with me. I'm just tired of dealing with the same gray Forge pieces, and same hills and terrain.

Far Cry 2 editor please.

Or this.

 

[Sibylus]

On the one hand, Frank is exactly right about not fixing what isn't broken. But on the other hand, there's something to be said for breaking it when there's ample potential for making it work even better.

It'll be interesting to see how 343i balances the two. Revere too many sacred cows, and the franchise will become stale and formulaic.

You wouldn't need to store every millimeter. Imagine, for example, that you can't edit the terrain directly. Instead, you place a terrain influence marker, which allows you to change a circumference value and an influence amount. You can move that marker up and down, which modifies the terrain. All you are allowed to do is place these markers, change the circumference, and influence amount to edit the terrain.

Then, for the "metaballs" you can place spheres, change their size, and specify whether they add or subtract from the terrain. The spheres can be used to dig caves or place overhanging complex terrain.

See?

The biggest pitfall might come in lighting, NPC navigation, and geometry if you allow wacky stuff like overhangs or caves (how would the user troubleshoot the terrain screwing up?). You could spring for dynamic solutions for these things, but it goes without saying that this would be very expensive in terms of memory. PC can handle stuff like dynamic global illumination and dynamic pathfinding without sacrificing too much else, but the same can't really be said for consoles. They don't have terribly much memory, and my guess is you'd have to cut a lot of corners to get it all working.

I move to make Falagard's GAF tag "Metaballs."

Seconded.

 

[Plywood]

Ever use Star Editor for SC2? I'd like something simplistic like that, and it doesn't take up too much space. Heck, even something like H2V's overly complex system would be fine with me. I'm just tired of dealing with the same gray Forge pieces, and same hills and terrain.

Far Cry 2 editor please.

 

[Blue Ninja]

I might join you tomorrow, Gui.

 

[Karl2177]

Far Cry 2 editor please.

I never picked up Far Cry 2, but from what people have said it sounds like it would fit it better than StarEdit.

Spoiler

I've just been on a SC2 hype, lately.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Those LASO runs can sure create some... Interesting situations.



For more, check Views from the Edge (click the image). Enjoy!

 

[Slightly Live]

Love your pano work Blue Ninja!

 

[Sibylus]

If dynamic solutions aren't on option, it might be possible to expose some of the content creation pipeline to the end users, allow them to run radiosity on their maps and create any required navigation meshes. That would come with its own pitfalls, however:

-If your tools are on PC (very likely), you'd have to port and test them on the Xbox. Or you could create cross-platform sharing, like Valve is doing with with Portal 2 and the PS3 (Maps will be made on the PC, which can then be played there or on the PS3).

- People may release maps without light or proper AI navigation.

- Map filesize may become an issue.


Dynamic or no, I'd wager it's all equally unlikely. Microsoft doesn't sound like they'd vote in favour of something that might possibly cut into their map pack revenue.

 

[CyReN]

Have any reviews/previews come out for the new maps? Also how often do you do community customs? I may get on tonight to play.

and I finally got my h1 avatar.

 

[Falagard]

I move to make Falagard's GAF tag "Metaballs."

Haha, awesome. I spit out my drink too, Ghaleon, and laughed even harder when I read you did too.

The biggest pitfall might come in lighting, NPC navigation, and geometry if you allow wacky stuff like overhangs or caves (how would the user troubleshoot the terrain screwing up?). You could spring for dynamic solutions for these things, but it goes without saying that this would be very expensive in terms of memory. PC can handle stuff like dynamic global illumination and dynamic pathfinding without sacrificing too much else, but the same can't really be said for consoles. They don't have terribly much memory, and my guess is you'd have to cut a lot of corners to get it all working.

Lighting is the biggest problem. NPC navigation (for AI) would only be valid if we're talking about Forging Firefight maps, which would be cool but a different kettle of fish.

Can I suggest my idea of dynamically baking lightmaps on the fly?

http://www.ogre3d.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=260554#p260554

Haha, anyhow. Let's get back on topic. Armor Lock sucks. Discuss.

 

[Oozer3993]

I played a crap ton of games in Halo 2. Custom games with MLG settings, matchmaking, and glitches in custom games, etc. The unbalanced sandbox, the ease of use to do glitches in matchmaking (button glitches, superjumps, etc), and the amount of modding found in matchmaking, ruined the experience. I have over 5,000 games of Halo 2 – I doubt you can say, with absolute certainty, that I didn't participate in a good number of games playing it the "right" way (whatever that is).

Halo 2 was a broken mess; a broken mess that was not meant to be. Had Bungie's development gone smoother, or had they been given more time, the Halo 2 we would have gotten would have been dramatically different than the Halo 2 we all know.

Halo 3 was everything Halo 2 was supposed to be.

Seconded.

 

[Crucio]

Sparkast 03 is out.
Right from HaloWayPoint Twitter: "Did someone say new Sparkast? 343 Industries & Certain Affinity talk about the Defiant Map Pack. http://bit.ly/aCmK4o"

Recorded at GDC, in 1up studio. Talking about the Defiant Map Pack,

 

[Plywood]

Halo 3 was everything Halo 2 was supposed to be.

Do you honestly feel that way considering the BR in Halo 3 and the inferior maps in comparison to Halo 2?

 

[Blue Ninja]

Thank you

I suggest resizing your avatar before you lose it. Here, I even did it for you.

Love your pano work Blue Ninja!

Thanks. I'm actually not completely happy with how some of those ("That Awkward Moment" and "Decoy") turned out, though I've got "Mostly At Night" and "Blue Balls of Steel" to offset them.

 

[xxjuicesxx]

You guys did know that if you waited for host boxes at the MM screen in Halo 2 you wouldn't get modded right?

After awhile I just had my friend bridge me host cause you would consistently get modded so often past any 30 rank, hell even in the 20s you'd get modded occasionally meeting up with people on there way to cheating their way to a inflated high unlegit rank. The system had you gain an amount of Exp at a level where you couldn't hit the next level before you would get modded and lose a rank. Anyone who says they had a legit 36+ were probably lieing.

I didn't even feel bad really about the bridging either crapping on kids every game because at least you were playing real games at that point and would occasionally lose to better players. We got to 40s at one point but then it took forever because no one past 40 weren't already waiting for host boxes and or bridging also. It could take 3 hours to get matched so it stopped being worth it.

Now without all that shit above, the H2 ranking system would work great! It really would.

I played a crap ton of games in Halo 2. Custom games with MLG settings, matchmaking, and glitches in custom games, etc. The unbalanced sandbox, the ease of use to do glitches in matchmaking (button glitches, superjumps, etc), and the amount of modding found in matchmaking, ruined the experience. I have over 5,000 games of Halo 2 – I doubt you can say, with absolute certainty, that I didn't participate in a good number of games playing it the "right" way (whatever that is).

Halo 2 was a broken mess; a broken mess that was not meant to be. Had Bungie's development gone smoother, or had they been given more time, the Halo 2 we would have gotten would have been dramatically different than the Halo 2 we all know.

Over 5000 H2 games is pretty much nothing. I started H2 late and had over 9000. Please button glitches were easy? They had BXR customs at the middle of Lockout to see who was better and I consistently got whooped by better glitchers. You can't even aim and doubleshot unless you clawed the controller since there wasn't any good button configurations yet...it required an amount of skill that rarely anyone truly had. Watch Turtles H2 montage if you don't believe me. The man was a god at turning glitching into skill.

The modding didn't ruin the game either because it just set you back a loss, where in H3 you lose a game to people lagging you out and host booting you and trueskill further cements you into a lower rank. Only thing to do: Create a new account.

 

[O D I N]

I just need to say that Crown of Flies is one of the best maps I've played on. Mad props Squid. I played it for the first time today, and loved it.

 

[Tawpgun]

I just need to say that Crown of Flies is one of the best maps I've played on. Mad props Squid. I played it for the first time today, and loved it.

tbh I didn't feel it was that good. It wasn't that bad either.

Kingdom however, is amazing.

 

[Slightly Live]

Sparkast 03 is out.
Right from HaloWayPoint Twitter: "Did someone say new Sparkast? 343 Industries & Certain Affinity talk about the Defiant Map Pack. http://bit.ly/aCmK4o"

Recorded at GDC, in 1up studio. Talking about the Defiant Map Pack,

Direct link?

 

[Karl2177]

Direct link?

http://halo.xbox.com/Content/assets/en-us/Podcast/343Sparkast_003.mp3

 

[MrBig]

Have any reviews/previews come out for the new maps? Also how often do you do community customs? I may get on tonight to play.

and I finally got my h1 avatar.

You're welcome for the avatar; we do customs every Saturday at 3pm and 8pm EST.

 

[Blue Ninja]

tbh I didn't feel it was that good. It wasn't that bad either.

Kingdom however, is amazing.

I find myself in agreement with you, good sir.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I just need to say that Crown of Flies is one of the best maps I've played on. Mad props Squid. I played it for the first time today, and loved it.

Yeah got to play it today twice and I really liked it.

 

[Gui_PT]

I'll be taking the picture tomorrow at about this time(maybe 30 minutes earlier) That way it won't be too late or too early for everyone.

PM if you want to join us. I've already gotten a few messages.

 

[Kuroyume]

Halo 3 was everything Halo 2 was supposed to be.

Horrible?

If so Halo 3 delivered.

 

[CyReN]

Horrible?

If so Halo 3 delivered.

Agreed.

Something about Halo 2 was "magical" with the glitches. Halo 3 was so clean cut without them it didn't make it fun, and the BR spread didn't help..

Games Played:
Halo 2: 13,000+
Halo 3: 5,558
Halo Reach: 808

 

[Slightly Live]

Horrible?

If so Halo 3 delivered.

Halo 3 improved upon almost every feature in Halo 2. Cry more dude, but it's true.

Loving the rose-tinted love given to glitches and exploits. Urgh.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Halo 3 improved upon almost every feature in Halo 2. Cry more dude, but it's true.

Yup. Some of the MP maps aside, Halo 3 improved upon (or just plain fixed) Halo 2 across the board. And then layered goodness on top of it all.

Listening to the podcast, a making-of video for the Defiant map pack should be hitting today. Sounds like it will be really interesting, look back at the early versions as the maps were iterated on. I was hoping stuff like that would ramp up this week.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Halo 3 improved upon almost every feature in Halo 2. Cry more dude, but it's true.

Loving the rose-tinted love given to glitches and exploits. Urgh.

I disagree, and it's not because of glitches. From a gameplay standpoint, I feel that H2 is superior in almost every way.

 

[NOKYARD]

Former Bungie doods who left and formed Moonshot Games finally announced their first game. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=423728
.

The Halo:Reach Side Scroller Physics Model. A Case Study by NOKYARD.

 

[wwm0nkey]

Halo 3 improved upon almost every feature in Halo 2. Cry more dude, but it's true.

Loving the rose-tinted love given to glitches and exploits. Urgh.

Again do not hate Halo 3 in the slightest but Halo 2 just had a special quality. Can not exactly put my finger on it but just playing it bring a lot of joy. Again im not just saying this because thats how I remember it, I have been playing it on PC and with friends via LAN and Split-screen for the past 2 months, Halo 2 is just a great game.

 

[Barrow Roll]

Halo 3 with hitscan weapons and Halo 2 maps would be pretty golden. Aaand some new gun sound effects.

 

[Gui_PT]

My 1st try, be kind:


(did not end well)
Click for big

Thanks, Blue

 

[xxjuicesxx]

Halo 3 with hitscan weapons and Halo 2 maps would be pretty golden. Aaand some new gun sound effects.

Maybe with H2's framerate. My god H3 was the slowest garbage ever. Nothing could save that, it just wasn't as fluid as H2. Made for a crap experience. Only kids who liked H3 were bad kids who sucked at H2. Whenever I see someone with H3 name background I'm like Easy Win!

 

[lybertyboy]

Listening to the podcast, a making-of video for the Defiant map pack should be hitting today. Sounds like it will be really interesting, look back at the early versions as the maps were iterated on. I was hoping stuff like that would ramp up this week.

Should be hitting your eyeholes soon enough.

 

[MrBig]

My 1st try, be kind:


(did not end well)
Click for big

Thanks, Blue

I recommend taking more, zoomed in shots of the same area so that you can get in more detail. The compression and artifacting in reach screenshots is just terrible. Good for you first one though