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[The Librarian]

Lars is reading it right now.

Ace.

 

[Detox]

Lars is reading it right now.

Would you also be able to refer some of these articles to Sage Merrill? Thanks.

On the decision to include bloom with particular emphasis on the 3rd point.

1. Start with a fun game
2. Make a tiny change (usually after exhaustive debate)
3. Playtest extensively to see if those changes made the game better
If they did, keep them; if not, change them back
4. Repeat until your publisher makes you ship

On the fascination to balance every single weapon against the DMR to stop it becoming the weapon of choice.

Adding a Weakness – It may seem like the best way to balance an element that is too strong is to give it an equally large weakness, but it just doesn’t work out that way. Either the weakness will not be enough, in which case you will have an element that is still too powerful and no longer fun to use. Or it will be more than enough, in which case you will have designed an element that has a weakness as its defining feature instead of the original aspiration. I would play as the invincible ninja character, but he has taken a vow of pacifism and doesn’t have any punches or kicks.

Creating a Counter – Another common way to address an overpowered element is to design a second element whose sole role is to counter the first. Not only is this second element probably not fun on its own merits, but everyone will be saddled with choosing an option that they secretly hope they don’t have to employ, just to prevent everyone else from choosing the fun option they desperately want. I will choose the unenjoyable anti-tank mine so that nobody else can have fun using a tank.

So, ignore the analysts and the pundits! If an element or mechanic has the tiniest spark of fun, a designer’s job is to protect and nurture it, not smother it because it might out-shine the rest of the game. No matter how tempting, there are always better options, so don’t short the fun!

One for his philosophy which seems to be balancing gone too far. Tripping over the starting line.

Also the definition of fun.

343 hire Jaime Griesemer!

 

[urk]

Re-reading the now published piece, I hope it doesn't come across as too negative. I love Firefight tremendously, and my intent was to provide a critical analysis of the current set up, and a hopefully helpful list of suggestions for how to improve them.

I'm only interested in positive feedback. Jeremiah is more tolerant, and he'll be setting up a thread in CC for you and the rest of the crew to weigh in on playlist stuff. Go nuts.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Absolutely. It seems as though they were initially implemented as creators of cool moments in games, which totally happens sometimes. But they don't mesh well with the established gameplay of the series, especially with regards to objective gameplay, vertical movement, and map design. It's almost as though they wanted to get this new stuff in there but were unwilling to change some staples to make them fit. For example, we have this devastating shotgun and one-hit kill objective item, but we want to add this Drop Shield that everybody on the team can use at the same time. Rather than changing either of them to make it fit together, it was a matter of shoving the square peg into the round hole and not realizing that the cool moments that are created aren't worth the overall decrease in match quality when the new stuff is abused. That's not to say it couldn't have been done, though.

Yep. Agree 100%.
I think drop shield would work in objective if three rules are followed:
- Only one player with the Drop Shield pickup on a map at any given time. Respawn can be adjusted by map after testing.
- It spawns closer to the attackers and does NOT spawn near any objective (flag, bomb pedestal, oddball.)
- It doesn't spawn near any close-quarters power weapon (shotgun, sword).

So the players on offense would be allowed to easily grab it and use it in interesting ways to help attack the objective without worrying about saving it for later or letting it fall into the hands of a defender. Defense would probably have an Armor Lock pickup close to the objective for balance. If one defender managed to sneak past the offense to grab a freshly spawned Drop Shield pickup and then managed to get back to the flag that wouldn't be the end of the world. Offense only has to worry about killing that one defender with the Drop Shield ability. Ghaleon's Boardwalk nightmare of Drop Shield chains can't happen.

I think MLG, while I'm not really interested in playing in that kind of environment, have done a good job making the armor abilities fit with what their vision for Halo's gameplay is. It's probably too late to make any changes, and I'm sure what we're suggesting will bring its own problems to the table, but I dunno. It just seems odd to me that some of these decisions went down like they did.

I have the same feelings about MLG. I like what they've done with AAs, I just wish I could play like that with otherwise normal Reach settings.

I'm only interested in positive feedback.

Okay: I am, uh, positive that fixing [insert Reach complaint here] would have a positive effect on Reach. Absolutely, positively.

 

[A27_StarWolf]

I'm only interested in positive feedback. Jeremiah is more tolerant, and he'll be setting up a thread in CC for you and the rest of the crew to weigh in on playlist stuff. Go nuts.

+10 internet points.

wait, CC?

 

[Ramirez]

Lars is reading it right now.

Now get NoF to read any of the countless insightful posts here regarding MM, thanks.

 

[The Librarian]

Oh, hey, my tag is gone.

 

[urk]

Would you also be able to refer some of these articles to Sage Merrill? Thanks.

On the decision to include bloom with particular emphasis on the 3rd point.

Jaime is awesome, but you're misapplying his words. He's not arguing that designers should follow the method you quoted, but against it.

But if you adopt iterative design as your primary design philosophy you will be doomed to making mediocre clones of better games…

 

[The Librarian]

Ghaleon, that article is GREAT! Good job, man.

 

[squidhands]

Excellent article, Ghaleon. One thing I'd like to add is the possibility of having an abbreviated version (2 sets instead of 3) of your Firefight Survival gametype added to Limited, keeping the playlists at their current set of 2 (this excludes the possibility of a Doubles Attack later on, if at all). I think dividing up the playlists to three or four would just end up having too few people to choose from when searching for teammates in a separate Survival playlist. I'd rather it be included in a playlist that already requires people to want to play a limited life scenario, and even if a couple of people quit out, all the better for the ones who stay. My two cents; very well-written article.

+10 internet points.

wait, CC?

Community Cartographers.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

+10 internet points.

wait, CC?

I assume he means the Community Cartographers group on Bungie.net. It's a private group for select members from various Halo communities to submit maps to Jeremiah for testing and matchmaking consideration. I think Ghaleon and NOKYARD are members (not sure if any other GAFers are as well.)

Oh, hey, my tag is gone.

Who are you? Does anyone recognize this person?

Jaime is awesome, but you're misapplying his words. He's not arguing that designers should follow the method you quoted, but against it.

Exactly. Also Jaime will be the first to point out that he is NOT the person responsible for the Halo 1 pistol. His powerpoint on balancing the Sniper Rifle is amazing. I'm really enjoying his blog.

 

[A27_StarWolf]

Excellent article, Ghaleon. One thing I'd like to add is the possibility of having an abbreviated version (2 sets instead of 3) of your Firefight Survival gametype added to Limited, keeping the playlists at their current set of 2 (this excludes the possibility of a Doubles Attack later on, if at all). I think dividing up the playlists to three or four would just end up having too few people to choose from when searching for teammates in a separate Survival playlist. I'd rather it be included in a playlist that already requires people to want to play a limited life scenario, and even if a couple of people quit out, all the better for the ones who stay. My two cents; very well-written article.

Community Cartographers.

Oh alright. Thanks!

 

[GhaleonEB]

Excellent article, Ghaleon. One thing I'd like to add is the possibility of having an abbreviated version (2 sets instead of 3) of your Firefight Survival gametype added to Limited, keeping the playlists at their current set of 2 (this excludes the possibility of a Doubles Attack later on, if at all). I think dividing up the playlists to three or four would just end up having too few people to choose from when searching for teammates in a separate Survival playlist. I'd rather it be included in a playlist that already requires people to want to play a limited life scenario, and even if a couple of people quit out, all the better for the ones who stay. My two cents; very well-written article.

That's a good suggestion. My only concern would be what I call predictability of experience. The way the playlists work now, you know the maximum time a game is going to last when you go into it. Limited is 30 minutes, tops. Arcade is 15 minutes, tops (likewise with Multiplayer, with slight variation across objective games). Often I'll have a window of time and that is what determines what playlist I hop into.

If a single playlist had 30 and 60 minute game types mixed, players who wanted a single set game could get stuck in a marathon, and that might impact players quitting out of longer games they don't want to complete.

The flip side is, separating them creates more playlists and player base fragmentation. I think the latter would be preferable so long as it wasn't too severe, but it's a clear trade off.

Urk: thank you. You made my day, week, year.

 

[Detox]

Jaime is awesome, but you're misapplying his words. He's not arguing that designers should follow the method you quoted, but against it.

Well I guess you guys wanted to make a game that was different to the games you're famed for. Otherwise you would have followed this mantra while developing specifically on the core gunplay which was fun and only needed polish. "If you something is already fun, stop iterating on it and work on the parts that aren’t fun. And if something isn’t fun, the iterative process won’t get you there. In the end, iteration is a polishing technique, not a generative one."

Nevertheless, the other quote regarding balance fits in with the attempt at stopping the DMR from becoming the BR still stands. Sage's job in regards to the BR should have been " to protect and nurture it, not smother it." Instead he shorted the fun and we got the DMR. The quote below fits in perfectly with why people don't like armour lock.

Creating a Counter – Another common way to address an overpowered element is to design a second element whose sole role is to counter the first. Not only is this second element probably not fun on its own merits, but everyone will be saddled with choosing an option that they secretly hope they don’t have to employ, just to prevent everyone else from choosing the fun option they desperately want. I will choose the unenjoyable anti-tank mine so that nobody else can have fun using a tank.

 

[wwm0nkey]

And annoying.

Meh was originally made just to troll a few personal friends, just thought I would share it here :lol

Besides talking about Halo 2 customs I have been pretty tame of the whole Halo 2 thing recently.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

The flip side is, separating them creates more playlists and player base fragmentation. I think the latter would be preferable so long as it wasn't too severe, but it's a clear trade off.

Yeah, it's all about matchmaking times and finding good connections. Do you think players jumping into the proposed Survival hopper would be willing to wait slightly longer for matchmaking to find players? I think so, up to a certain point. Especially since the game they're waiting to start should last much longer than in the other Firefight playlists.

 

[Striker]

Meh was originally made just to troll a few personal friends, just thought I would share it here :lol

Besides talking about Halo 2 customs I have been pretty tame of the whole Halo 2 thing recently.

Say you love the bubble shield, Valhalla, The Pit, and a BR that barely hits anything past 10 ft.

 

[A27_StarWolf]

Well I guess you guys wanted to make a game that was different to the games you're famed for. Otherwise you would have followed this mantra while developing specifically on the core gunplay which was fun and only needed polish. "If you something is already fun, stop iterating on it and work on the parts that aren’t fun. And if something isn’t fun, the iterative process won’t get you there. In the end, iteration is a polishing technique, not a generative one."

Nevertheless, the other quote regarding balance fits in with the attempt at stopping the DMR from becoming the BR still stands. Sage's job in regards to the BR should have been " to protect and nurture it, not smother it." Instead he shorted the fun and we got the DMR. The quote below fits in perfectly with why people don't like armour lock.

Many people like armor lock. That is the problem.

 

[Detox]

Just to add the generative process should have been applied to Forge and not the golden tripod. Instead we got the opposite iterate on Forge and start from scratch on the core gameplay.

Many people like armor lock. That is the problem.

Maybe a small minority like it and the rest are using it for these precise reasons "everyone will be saddled with choosing an option that they secretly hope they don’t have to employ, just to prevent everyone else from choosing the fun option they desperately want."

 

[GhaleonEB]

Yeah, it's all about matchmaking times and finding good connections. Do you think players jumping into the proposed Survival hopper would be willing to wait slightly longer for matchmaking to find players? I think so, up to a certain point. Especially since the game they're waiting to start should last much longer than in the other Firefight playlists.

This made me think of the Campaign co-op playlist. Right now there are only 277 players in it, and I've seen it range from 150-500 in general. But I almost always have a good game with players who are fun to play with, because while the population is low, it's almost entirely people who love the campaign and are willing to wait for games to get them. Despite the low population and generally longer game times, the playlist works.

My hope is that's what Survival would become. I have no idea, though.

Maybe a small minority like it and the rest are using it for these precise reasons "everyone will be saddled with choosing an option that they secretly hope they don’t have to employ, just to prevent everyone else from choosing the fun option they desperately want."

I'd just add that armor lock is a counter, but it's a counter to a wide range of things. I counters gun fire and grenades. It sheds plasma sticks and needles. It blows up vehicles. It lets you recharge shields while protected. It fires an EMP upon full charge up.

Were the counter more limited in the range of effects it would counter, it would be selected less often. But as it, it's versatile in a an array of situations, and for that reason is used more often.

 

[Tashi]

I love the DMR

 

[wwm0nkey]

Say you love the bubble shield, Valhalla, The Pit, and a BR that barely hits anything past 10 ft.

Never!

 

[ncsuDuncan]

This made me think of the Campaign co-op playlist. Right now there are only 277 players in it, and I've seen it range from 150-500 in general. But I almost always have a good game with players who are fun to play with, because while the population is low, it's almost entirely people who love the campaign and are willing to wait for games to get them. Despite the low population and generally longer game times, the playlist works.

My hope is that's what Survival would become. I have no idea, though.

Yeah, these things can be unpredictable, but you seem to have accounted for the worst problems.

Personally I think Bungie should take your suggestions and add one more playlist:
Firefight Idle
- Game completion bonus equal to the other Firefight playlists, no performance bonus
- Jetpack-only loadouts, armed only with a plasma pistol
- Really short rounds
- Spartans are invincible, invisible
- Covenant is invincible, blind, deaf

Wait a week or two, then just take the chart of the most active players in that playlist and copy/paste it into the matchmaking ban list. Dish out credit resets too. The perfect sting operation.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Many people like armor lock. That is the problem.

I seriously don't see how it's possible for people to like it.

As for Ghaleon's playlist proposals, I like the first one (Arcade, Unlimited, and Survival).

 

[squidhands]

This made me think of the Campaign co-op playlist. Right now there are only 277 players in it, and I've seen it range from 150-500 in general. But I almost always have a good game with players who are fun to play with, because while the population is low, it's almost entirely people who love the campaign and are willing to wait for games to get them. Despite the low population and generally longer game times, the playlist works.

My hope is that's what Survival would become. I have no idea, though.

I'd just add that armor lock is a counter, but it's a counter to a wide range of things. I counters gun fire and grenades. It sheds plasma sticks and needles. It blows up vehicles. It lets you recharge shields while protected. It fires an EMP upon full charge up.

Were the counter more limited in the range of effects it would counter, it would be selected less often. But as it, it's versatile in a an array of situations, and for that reason is used more often.

All right, that correlation sold me (I'm in the co-op Campaign playlist a lot). Not to mention that with my previous idea, assholes would find a whole new way of screwing people out of playing a long game if they didn't get to play the shorter gametype they voted for. Bring on the Survival

Spoiler

GhaleonFight

playlist!

 

[Lake Minnetonka]

All right, that correlation sold me (I'm in the co-op Campaign playlist a lot). Not to mention that with my previous idea, assholes would find a whole new way of screwing people out of playing a long game if they didn't get to play the shorter gametype they voted for. Bring on the Survival

Spoiler

GhaleonFight

playlist!

Bungie should spend more time crafting playlists specifically designed to appeal to an incredibly small portion of their playerbase.

 

[squidhands]

You mean like Team Objective?

 

[Trasher]

Naw son, I at least had some assists, you were 0's across the board...except deaths, lawl.

Yeah because we all know how well assists work. It was still a goose egg nonetheless!

Ramirez...you stink.

 

[Lake Minnetonka]

You mean like Team Objective?

Are you suggesting Bungie's purposely gimped TO with shitty gametypes to keep the population low?

 

[Louis Wu]

Tonight I had one of those games in FF Limited that reminds me why I keep playing it.

This clip (seriously amazing) is why I never send you an invite when I see you playing Limited.

I'd be one of those jerks you rail about, wasting all your lives.

That was some killer gameplay right there.

 

[Hitmonchan107]

Bring on the Survival

Spoiler

GhaleonFight

playlist!

Boo. lol

Great article, Ghal. I loved the pro/con lists, too.

 

[Ramirez]

I love the DMR

Host DMR is definitely something to love.

A whole page dedicated to Firefight talk, sad times. Funny thing is, it'll probably get a complete overhaul and tons of MM problems will remain stagnant for months to come.

 

[Tunavi]

@HaloWaypoint just retweeted ncsuDuncan. Nice

 

[A27_StarWolf]

Are you kidding?

You know whats fun? Using armor lock when a ghost comes at you...

when I get stuck and surviving,

kicking ass with it,

Its broken as hell, but that does not mean it is not fun to use. It really makes you feel like a bad ass.

Are you suggesting Bungie's purposely gimped TO with shitty gametypes to keep the population low?

No, I'm pretty sure that is NOT what he said. At all.

It caters to a smaller player base.

 

[urk]

Bungie should spend more time crafting playlists specifically designed to appeal to an incredibly small portion of their playerbase.

Brute Chopper Aficionados, for example.

 

[The Librarian]

@HaloWaypoint just retweeted ncsuDuncan. Nice

Halo Fest would be more of a blast if I could come.
*grumbles*

 

[Hitmonchan107]

Well, I'm having a really off day. :^(

I'm going to get on Reach to get over this funk.

Would anyone like to join me? We can play whatever, as long as we have fun.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Are you suggesting Bungie's purposely gimped TO with shitty gametypes to keep the population low?

You could leverage this same line of argument about Firefight, Eazy.

Here are the playlist populations right now, from largest to smallest:

Playlist                     Players
TEAM SLAYER                  7,891
LIVING DEAD                  5,743
FIREFIGHT ARCADE             5,534
BIG TEAM BATTLE              4,209
TEAM SWAT                    3,911
SCORE ATTACK                 3,765
SQUAD SLAYER                 3,391
TEAM SNIPERS                 2,019
ACTION SACK                  1,935
RUMBLE PIT                   1,606
INVASION                     1,571
DOUBLE TEAM                  1,060
MULTI TEAM                   1,031
MLG                          935
FIREFIGHT LIMITED            883
THE ARENA                    860
GRIFBALL                     800
TEAM OBJECTIVE               533
DEFIANT MAP PACK             498
CO-OP CAMPAIGN               364
TEAM CLASSIC                 313

Firefight fares pretty well on the list. Now, granted, it's the middle of the day so absolute numbers are low. And Firefight is bumped a bit thanks to it being Firefight Challenge day, but hey, that's when we're discussing it. But proportionally, this is about normal otherwise.

Look at the place of playlists that have chewed up huge resources. Look what Firefight is falling near.

I don't think Firefight deserves equal resources applied to it as Multiplayer. But I think it should be proportional. If Score Attack is going to exist, it should get a little bit of love each month. If the Firefight playlists are going to exist, devote say 10% of the test resources to improving them, since they usually hold 10-15% of the player population.

Updating Firefight is much, much easier than multiplayer, since there are fewer variables (just what we have in the options). No geometry to forge, no weapon spawns, no player spawns, no objective timers or locations to tweak. Just load outs, enemies, traits and durations. It can be done. Sounds like it will be too.

 

[squidhands]

Are you suggesting Bungie's purposely gimped TO with shitty gametypes to keep the population low?

Are you suggesting that this isn't what everyone wants?

 

[PNut]

Brute Chopper Aficionados, for example.

Might as well throw Rocket Racers in there too.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

@HaloWaypoint just retweeted ncsuDuncan. Nice

Pshh, me and Halo Waypoint go way back. We even shared dinner in this charming Italian restaurant during PAX East.

Halo Fest would be more of a blast if I could come.
*grumbles*

I agree. There needs to be a Halo Fest Southeast. I know of at least one 343i celebrity that would love an excuse to visit North Carolina...

 

[Steelyuhas]

Are you kidding?

You know whats fun? Using armor lock when a ghost comes at you...

when I get stuck and surviving,

kicking ass with it,

Its broken as hell, but that does not mean it is not fun to use. It really makes you feel like a bad ass.

That's all you really needed to say.

 

[A27_StarWolf]

That's all you really needed to say.

Halo 2 is the perfect example of broken things being fun. Look at all the issues it had at the start

 

[Striker]

BTB is one playlist that can use AL and not be broken. It's a mess in Team Slayer and Multi-Team, though.

Still confused as to why Jeremiah split around the loadouts. CTF still uses Drop Shields and Armor Lock, but for Assault there's only a select few. Why not make all the gamtypes in BTB one piece? Sprint/Jetpack/Camo/Armor Lock/Hologram, that's it. What's bad about that?

 

[Plywood]

Also this made me laugh harder than it should've

Thanks, I'm actually having trouble believing I typed that.

 

[Lake Minnetonka]

No, I'm pretty sure that is NOT what he said. At all.

It caters to a smaller player base.

Just because Bungie's forgotten how to cater to objective fans doesn't mean objective playlists are inherently unappealing to the playerbase. I wouldn't expect someone as bad at Halo as you to understand this though. I had a feeling Squid was being sarcastic but I'll gladly accept any excuse to take a jab at how terribly Bungie's managed objective playlists since H3.

To even consider objective gametypes not having a place in Halo... good lord child.

You could leverage this same line of argument about Firefight, Eazy.

You honestly think firefight numbers would be significantly different if Bungie implemented your changes? I'm not doubting it all sounds better but I don't think the ability to pick up weapons in sniperfight ever made the firefight kids set their controller down and walk away from the playlist. If Bungie was a bigger company and could find the resources to step up the amount of content they can update I'd say go for it, polish Firefight, but the nearly insurmountable hurdles they have to cross to get these updates out means they have to prioritize. Firefight gets an unproportionately large amount of attention in updates and challenges considering its population, both what it currently is and what it could be given more attention.

 

[Tashi]

Host DMR is definitely something to love.

A whole page dedicated to Firefight talk, sad times. Funny thing is, it'll probably get a complete overhaul and tons of MM problems will remain stagnant for months to come.

LOL a fair point. However, on a decent host the DMR registers better than any other Halo game. My shots actually hit at long range.

 

[Ramirez]

Brute Chopper Aficionados, for example.

Revenant was definitely a worthwhile replacement.


lol

 

[Lake Minnetonka]

Brute Chopper Aficionados, for example.

The only people happy about the chopper's removal from the sandbox are those that had the misfortune to be on the wrong side of my 8-shot.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Jaime Griesemer on Twitter:

"For the record, my main complaint about the DMR is the boring cadence. #neogaf"

(Hey Jaime!)