• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Halo: Reach |OT4| This Thread is Not Your Grave, But You Are Welcome In It

This just goes back to my opinion that Reach certainly deserved a "fresh" look at Halo, but took it a bit too far.

Personally, I wish* the default Reach settings at launch were:
- Current Reach movement speed, jump height, damage model.
- No loadouts at all: Sprint only.
- 2-D radar.
- "Armor Abilities" are reusable pickups on the map, like super weapons that replace your Sprint function. Spawn limit of 2 each, 180s respawn.
- Bloom, but it only grows/shrinks at the current rate if you hold the trigger down (so it mostly affects automatic weapons like the AR). Pulsing the trigger on precision weapons (and even on automatics) still creates bloom, but it only has half the effect and goes away twice as fast.

*Note that these aren't my opinion of what a perfect Halo would be, just a compromise I make between my own gameplay tastes and other's desire for something fresh/different.

Invasion gets loadouts, since Spartans vs Elites isn't a battle on even ground anyways. Action Sack gets gametypes where everyone spawns with something other than Sprint (e.g. Jetpack).

I think the addition of Sprint coupled with the new movement/damage/bloom model and Armor Ability pickups would have made Reach feel fresh enough without straying too far from "classic" Halo. And the CoD players that wanted a Halo that was even more different could get that with the Invasion and Action Sack offerings.

As it stands now, default Reach is too fresh. So much so that a (well intentioned but broken) Classic playlist had to be made and certain Armor Abilities had to be removed from other playlists. But the majority of players are spoiled by loadouts being the norm instead of seeing them as a neat customs feature separate from the balanced default mode.
 
Lake Minnetonka said:
When I think resources I think development budget. A game with Reach's development budget cannot have so little content. Microsoft threw millions at Bungie to create a kick-ass Halo game, Microsoft wasn't trying to fund Activision's multiplatform IP. Even a fraction of Bungie's 200+ people should have delivered more content, dev teams a fraction of their size (with much less experience) have done more. I'm confused on where you stand, you made fun of Major Williams implying that Bungie did a decent job allocating their resources when I can't understand how someone could defend that. Yes, they had up to two franchises in the work, but are they that inefficient that they have to settle on as little content as they did?



Now wait a second here, it does not matter how much money you give a development team, the larger team is going to produce more results, assuming they are equally competent.

smaller dev team == less content.

As to your argument of smaller dev teams doing more, where is your proof and what games do you reference.
 
A27_StarWolf said:
As to your argument of smaller dev teams doing more, where is your proof and what games do you reference.
Good lord your a terrible poster. Your terrible posting is rivaled only by your terrible Haloing.

Give me a list of MP games with less content that had larger dev teams.
 
A question from left field: Why did they change the Invasion team colors from the beautiful and fantastic purple covenant vs green spartans, featured in the beta? Above all the other problems in Invasion this is the one thing that hinders the playlist the absolute most, without a doubt. Don't make me post proof.
'cause I don't have any


EDIT: Thanks Havok, that answer would have never crossed my mind because it's such an asinine notion. The problem must have been detected in the beta though, so I understand. Players kept betraying each other for the tank and the snipe because they forgot which team they were on without the red/blue color scheme. Thank god they fixed THAT obvious mistake! <3 u Bungie :p

EDIT2:
The postgame carnage report showing red team's total kills/captures/etc. isn't as confusing.
Thank you, too. This makes more sense to me from a logistic POV. The carnage report's influence on in-game traits runs deeper than I can conceive.
 
GhaleonEB said:
Personally, I think the map count should be proportional to the game types on offer. The main issue with Reach is that it added a number of game types to support, and did not proportionally increase the maps to support them.

That is, of course, a hugely expensive proposition from a development standpoint. Which is one argument for paring back the game types or at least rethinking them (Invasion did huge damage to BTB, for instance), so the maps that ship better support the games.
Yeah, that's probably a better way of looking at it.
 

Havok

Member
Account Attempt #4 said:
A question from left field: Why did they change the Invasion team colors from the beautiful and fantastic purple covenant vs green spartans, featured in the beta? Above all the other problems in Invasion this is the one thing that hinders the playlist the absolute most, without a doubt. Don't make me post proof.
'cause I don't have any
Because most players are idiots and wouldn't understand that in the next round you have to shoot people that look like what your teammates just were, color-wise. I agree that it was better before, but it's a usability thing....or maybe what Duncan said and I don't properly remember what Invasion in the beta was. Probably that last part.
 
Account Attempt #4 said:
A question from left field: Why did they change the Invasion team colors from the beautiful and fantastic purple covenant vs green spartans, featured in the beta? Above all the other problems in Invasion this is the one thing that hinders the playlist the absolute most, without a doubt. Don't make me post proof.
'cause I don't have any

In the beta, Invasion was just one Round (of up to 3 phases). You didn't switch sides halfway through.

So now you're a Red Spartan and a Red Elite. The postgame carnage report showing red team's total kills/captures/etc. isn't as confusing.

I'd rather switch between green and purple too, but I can see why they didn't want to confuse people with the switch from Spartan to Elite.
 

Detox

Member
A27_StarWolf said:
As to your argument of smaller dev teams doing more, where is your proof and what games do you reference.
Indie game made by one guy who posts on GAF, compare these videos to forgeworld. Sure it could have better graphics but that will come from Bungie's visual department.
Bungie could have done so much more with Reach but I guess they were just looking towards the next big thing and Reach was just a milestone on the road towards their Activision game
 
Lake Minnetonka said:
When I think resources I think development budget. A game with Reach's development budget cannot have so little content. Microsoft threw millions at Bungie to create a kick-ass Halo game, Microsoft wasn't trying to fund Activision's multiplatform IP. Even a fraction of Bungie's 200+ people should have delivered more content, dev teams a fraction of their size (with much less experience) have done more. I'm confused on where you stand, you made fun of Major Williams implying that Bungie did a decent job allocating their resources when I can't understand how someone could defend that. Yes, they had up to two franchises in the work, but are they that inefficient that they have to settle on as little content as they did?


I'm hoping for your sake that you simply don't know the definition of refined.
I'm just going to say what everyone's thinking: you're a self-important douche.
 
HiredN00bs said:
I'm just going to say what everyone's thinking: you're a self-important douche.
Careful guy, you could hurt someone's feelings talking like that.

Say what you will about Reach, but calling it the most refined game in the franchise is just silly.
 

MrBig

Member
Lake Minnetonka said:
Careful guy, you could hurt someone's feelings talking like that.

Say what you will about Reach, but calling it the most refined game in the franchise is just silly.
While I do not agree in the slightest as to how you came to your conclusion, the result brings up a good point. What, exactly, did Reach give us that any of the other Halo games haven't? Halo 2 made Live what it is today, 3 brought Forge and popularized Theater. ODST introduced firefight. Reach brought nothing tangible in that sense alone, considering none of the expected advancements. It's matchmaking system did not improve in search times, and, once in-game, host migrations are even more prevalent than before. Maps are far beyond lackluster.
 

Lazslo

Member
Damn this thread is full of haters hating and people taking Halo way too seriously. Maybe this will cheer everyone up. I'm looking forward to playing some Team Classic soon, hope they don't remove that playlist for low population- I'll do my part and add one the population and hopefully that will put it at 400.
 
MrBig said:
While I do not agree in the slightest as to how you came to your conclusion, the result brings up a good point. What, exactly, did Reach give us that any of the other Halo games haven't? Halo 2 made Live what it is today, 3 brought Forge and popularized Theater. ODST introduced firefight. Reach brought nothing tangible in that sense alone, considering none of the expected advancements. It's matchmaking system did not improve in search times, and, once in-game, host migrations are even more prevalent than before. Maps are far beyond lackluster.

I recall this was the reason Edge gave Reach a 9 instead of a 10.

Kylej, that video was intense. It's slightly reminiscent of the Reach ad campaign with Kat running that beacon across the battlefield.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
MrBig said:
While I do not agree in the slightest as to how you came to your conclusion, the result brings up a good point. What, exactly, did Reach give us that any of the other Halo games haven't? Halo 2 made Live what it is today, 3 brought Forge and popularized Theater. ODST introduced firefight. Reach brought nothing tangible in that sense alone, considering none of the expected advancements. It's matchmaking system did not improve in search times, and, once in-game, host migrations are even more prevalent than before. Maps are far beyond lackluster.
I can't hear you over how definitive this Halo is from the people that created Halo.

Spot on MrBig.
 
MrBig said:
While I do not agree in the slightest as to how you came to your conclusion, the result brings up a good point. What, exactly, did Reach give us that any of the other Halo games haven't? Halo 2 made Live what it is today, 3 brought Forge and popularized Theater. ODST introduced firefight. Reach brought nothing tangible in that sense alone, considering none of the expected advancements. It's matchmaking system did not improve in search times, and, once in-game, host migrations are even more prevalent than before. Maps are far beyond lackluster.

Well, speaking for myself only, I love the weapon balance, the new wrinkles that armor abilities bring to the shoot/grenade/melee combat model, Invasion mode, the player investment system that lets me customize my Spartan, and the new campaign.
 
Lake Minnetonka said:
Good lord your a terrible poster. Your terrible posting is rivaled only by your terrible Haloing.

Give me a list of MP games with less content that had larger dev teams.


You failed to back up your claims, you came outright and said that smaller dev teams have done more, well I assumed you meant Bungie, and past Halo games, and even if you did not, you still failed to list your sources.


Hey, maybe I am not the best poster,

but your not the best at listing sources or examples either :)

edit- For the record, insulting someone because they request you provide sources for your information is hilarious.
 
MrBig said:
While I do not agree in the slightest as to how you came to your conclusion, the result brings up a good point. What, exactly, did Reach give us that any of the other Halo games haven't? Halo 2 made Live what it is today, 3 brought Forge and popularized Theater. ODST introduced firefight. Reach brought nothing tangible in that sense alone, considering none of the expected advancements.
When one talks about refined or refining something, they talk about removing the unwanted/unnecessary elements and leaving the purest, most elegant aspects. Reach is more akin to an amalgamation of everything in previous Halos and other modern shooters; a sludge of undirected efforts in an attempt to spice up a game in a franchise the developers were tired of making year after year.

Refined isn't adding bloom on top of the existing gunplay. Adding a swath of armor abilities and loadouts to a franchise built upon its oldschool shooter roots. Adding fall damage back in. A return to health bars and health packs. A melee that no longer deals a consistent amount of damage. Gametypes added not because they offer something better than existing gametypes, but only for the sake of saying they have new gametypes. A vehicle health on top of player health. These are not the product of refinement even if fans appreciate these changes.

Refinement is CE to 2; removing health and fall damage. MLG refines the base game by removing elements of the sandbox they deem unnecessary or random. Some people may be unhappy seeing something removed or streamlined, feeling like it neuters the experience, so a refinement may not be universally received as beneficial but making a plethora of huge changes and hoping something sticks is not refinement.

Mr. Big, I get what you're saying about Reach not adding any huge back-of-the-box features but I don't think that's necessary unless the previous iteration was lacking it.
 

Detox

Member
Reach gave the world bloom, armour lock and introduced the crouch shot into the repertoire of professional gamers across the world. This is why it deserved a higher score from EDGE.
 

MrBig

Member
Detox said:
Reach gave the world bloom, armour lock and introduced the crouch shot into the repertoire of professional gamers across the world. This is why it deserved a higher score from EDGE.
This is basically it, and as lake said, it was all unnecessary.
 

Striker

Member
Havok said:
Because most players are idiots and wouldn't understand that in the next round you have to shoot people that look like what your teammates just were, color-wise. I agree that it was better before, but it's a usability thing....or maybe what Duncan said and I don't properly remember what Invasion in the beta was. Probably that last part.
Would be cool if we had our own unique colors instead of being forced. If not, the shade of green and purple were a neat little wrinkle from Invasion. It at least served something different from the other variants.
 
Lazslo said:
Damn this thread is full of haters hating and people taking Halo way too seriously. Maybe this will cheer everyone up. I'm looking forward to playing some Team Classic soon, hope they don't remove that playlist for low population- I'll do my part and add one the population and hopefully that will put it at 400.
We love it too much to watch it go by the wayside. This is Halo Gaf. Meaningful discussions are had here every week. Grab some popcorn my good sir.
 

Domino Theory

Crystal Dynamics
Lazslo said:
Damn this thread is full of haters hating and people taking Halo way too seriously. Maybe this will cheer everyone up. I'm looking forward to playing some Team Classic soon, hope they don't remove that playlist for low population- I'll do my part and add one the population and hopefully that will put it at 400.

We criticize what we love most.
 

Lazslo

Member
Domino Theory said:
We criticize what we love most.
Yeah I hear you. Sometimes I go back and read the Halo 3 thread- It's still so good for so many reasons. I Hope it never goes away and I can read it 10 years from now. Someone needs to archive that beautiful spectacle of 'community' real talk.
 
Lazslo said:
Yeah I hear you. Sometimes I go back and read the Halo 3 thread- It's still so good for so many reasons. I Hope it never goes away and I can read it 10 years from now. Someone needs to archive that beautiful spectacle of 'community' real talk.

Pfft, 2000 pages of AR vs BR more like.

:p
 
Lake Minnetonka said:
When one talks about refined or refining something, they talk about removing the unwanted/unnecessary elements and leaving the purest, most elegant aspects. Reach is more akin to an amalgamation of everything in previous Halos and other modern shooters; a sludge of undirected efforts in an attempt to spice up a game in a franchise the developers were tired of making year after year.

Refined isn't adding bloom on top of the existing gunplay. Adding a swath of armor abilities and loadouts to a franchise built upon its oldschool shooter roots. Adding fall damage back in. A return to health bars and health packs. A melee that no longer deals a consistent amount of damage. Gametypes added not because they offer something better than existing gametypes, but only for the sake of saying they have new gametypes. A vehicle health on top of player health. These are not the product of refinement even if fans appreciate these changes.

Refinement is CE to 2; removing health and fall damage. MLG refines the base game by removing elements of the sandbox they deem unnecessary or random. Some people may be unhappy seeing something removed or streamlined, feeling like it neuters the experience, so a refinement may not be universally received as beneficial but making a plethora of huge changes and hoping something sticks is not refinement.

Mr. Big, I get what you're saying about Reach not adding any huge back-of-the-box features but I don't think that's necessary unless the previous iteration was lacking it.
Reach reads better than every other game, has more dependable primary weapons, and gives more options for players to play the way they wish. Things like fall damage and health are matters of preference, and for me, adding them back was an improvement. Every change, be it an innovation, a re-introduction, or a removal was painstakingly chosen because Bungie determined it would contribute to making the best game possible. Criticize their design choices if you want, but don't assume you hold the only educated opinion.
 

Ramirez

Member
HiredN00bs said:
Reach reads better than every other game, has more dependable primary weapons, and gives more options for players to play the way they wish. Things like fall damage and health are matters of preference, and for me, adding them back was an improvement. Every change, be it an innovation, a re-introduction, or a removal was painstakingly chosen because Bungie determined it would contribute to making the best game possible. Criticize their design choices if you want, but don't assume you hold the only educated opinion.

I lol'd.

I can't wait for the next Halo to be shown so I can see all of you flip flop back over to old school Halo when all of the trash is taken out.
 
HiredN00bs said:
Reach reads better than every other game, has more dependable primary weapons, and gives more options for players to play the way they wish. Things like fall damage and health are matters of preference, and for me, adding them back was an improvement. Every change, be it an innovation, a re-introduction, or a removal was painstakingly chosen because Bungie determined it would contribute to making the best game possible. Criticize their design choices if you want, but don't assume you hold the only educated opinion.
I think we need to focus on how we are similar here.

I agree with Lake on nearly every aspect. I also agree with you that things were chosen with a great degree of care - as was the noob tube on CoD:MW2...

So, even though you can take great care in crafting the greatest hot dog, barbequed to perfection, that still won't be in a 5 star restaurant's menu because it's not healthy, and only really appeals to a certain demographic of people. The analogy is not perfect, but I hope you understand. Reach is far from perfect. I think vehicle handling is something you should note. The imbalance of the banshee is another.

Unnecessary elements being shaved off is the essence of refinement. They shaved off a few things, and added some more. The newest elements added are the ones most chastised by the community, and the largest reason for the loss in player count. I think the answer is simple here.
 

Striker

Member
Ramirez said:
I lol'd.

I can't wait for the next Halo to be shown so I can see all of you flip flop back over to old school Halo when all of the trash is taken out.
EliteApproves.gif


Hitscan, no equipment/AA, good maps plz
 
Ramirez said:
I lol'd.

I can't wait for the next Halo to be shown so I can see all of you flip flop back over to old school Halo when all of the trash is taken out.

I certainly won't.

It's part of the reason that I'm ambivalent to the idea of a Halo: CE remake. I would certainly love to play through that campaign in a new, beautiful engine.

But I have ZERO interest in going back to those old, stripped-down multiplayer mechanics, and would hate to see the Halo community split between Reach fans and old-school Halo fans.
 
The Antitype said:
I certainly won't.

It's part of the reason that I'm ambivalent to the idea of a Halo: CE remake. I would certainly love to play through that campaign in a new, beautiful engine.

But I have ZERO interest in going back to those old, stripped-down multiplayer mechanics, and would hate to see the Halo community split between Reach fans and old-school Halo fans.

It kind of already is, I mean a fair amount of the old school Halo fans in this thread arent even playing Reach much anymore.

Im going to let someone else post more elaborate posts. Some people just make it look Eazy, but a few of the comments here have made me go woah a little. I typed out a fairly decent post to HiredNoobs but I just left it, essentially im not going to argue whether or not Bungie put painstaking work into balancing Reach or not, its more the direction they decided to go in which im questioning, not theyre work ethic.
Although considering from what I read on the interwebz some of the bigger players seemed to be more focused on the next big thing than Reach I have my doubts
 
The Antitype said:
I certainly won't.

It's part of the reason that I'm ambivalent to the idea of a Halo: CE remake. I would certainly love to play through that campaign in a new, beautiful engine.

But I have ZERO interest in going back to those old, stripped-down multiplayer mechanics, and would hate to see the Halo community split between Reach fans and old-school Halo fans.
Halo CE Remake to ship with 30 maps confirmed. Reach playlists barren.
 
Top Bottom