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[GhaleonEB]

@Tawpgun Trueskill seems much much looser in Reach. It bothers me too. I go in alone quite a bit and many times I am on the opposite side in that match you posted. I hold my own and go positive, but it still sucks to lose based on bad teammates and abundance of guests. I'm not sure what the answer is. Are the numbers low enough to not be able to match in a reasonable time to more level players or something? I don't buy that because even when some playlists have huge numbers do to jackpots, it still happens. Maybe its just loose to create fast matches.

I wonder if its just flawed in how it works. I read once how it worked for Reach and that it takes your team's trueskill number, and matches it up with an equal number or as close as possible for the other team. Maybe it needs to go off individual level or something, and match teams up 1 for 1. I know for playlists like TO that's just not possible based on its numbers.

Surely guest parties could at least be matched against other guest parties?

I don't know what it is, but I wish it was better.

I wonder if the number of playlists plays a part. Reach has a similar population to Halo 3, but there are many more playlists so the population is spread more thinly. In the premium playlists, there are usually less than 1,000 players when I'm in, and my experience seems to alternate between dominating games and getting crushed, with only a handful that are really evenly matched.

With Team Objective's lower population, the experience is going to be the same.

 

[Nutter]

Go play Rumble Pit by yourself!

Rumble pit is oh so very boring. In Fact Reach is oh so boring by yourself. Unless you like Firefight that is..

 

[Striker]

Even if they made three melee's to kill the default (I know that doesn't require a TU), it would be a big improvement.

Problem with Halo Reach's melee is really, like Halo 3, the poor simultaneous beatdowns.

 

[stephen08]

Long post

There is no way to paint unsportsmanlike conduct as a noble means to make the game better. Especially when it is presented as it was, I called Tawpgun out on it and you responded to that. This is an attempt to save face.

Armor Abilities have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Even taking all of that for granted though, it's the players who use these exploits that ultimately make them annoying to play against. Yeah, you cannot prevent the whole community from using them but you can control your own actions. And if you knowingly exploit these flaws well then I stand by my tools statement.

Ask yourself this:

If you were playing GAF customs would you do this?

If you say no, then you realize there is fundamentally a problem with your position.
If you say yes, then I can't imagine you would be an enjoyable presence.

Both HiredNoobs and Stephen play together and bully kids around too. They play A LOT, they are both Forerunner's (thats pretty high up there) In fact Stephen's K/D is higher than mine in Objective, which is odd. Because I'm the one going "just for slaying"...

So yea.

I snipe a lot, and in general my playstyle is very conservative. But my team is always progressing the objective. On the rare occasions we go in to an objective game with a less than full party I have actually betrayed people in order to cap the flag when they attempt to hold it. It's something I have no patience for. I don't participate in it at all. We are a fairly good team but there are people out there who run a much tighter set-up than us. We have had the flag held on us before. It sucks. So we don't do it to others.

I realize this discussion is sort of getting both heated and run down at this point but it's worth saying I don't condemn any of you for this. If this was truly a one time deal then that's fine, we all do stupid stuff on occasion. Don't try to justify it any other way than it was for our own amusement though.

 

[Homeboyd]

One of the biggest gameplay altering features in Reach is, as you guys have been discussing, credits and how you obtain them. But in a sub-category, the challenge system is definitely a system where you can see people changing the way they play matches nowadays when compared back to H3 and earlier.

Offering payouts for assists is such a bad idea. Seeing teammates run around spraying with an AR/PP, popping shields and running away is definitely something new to the mix. When multiplayer challenges roll out, you can expect players to put these on priority over just playing the match the way it was designed. Hell, it directly influences what playlists the player will enter to begin with. And when you do get the occasional "get X kills in a MM game" you will see things like objective holding (see: Grifball and the CQC challenges). These challenges should be a secondary reward that adds a bonus when you happen to complete one in a game, but instead they are treated as the main objective of the game. I know reducing their worth has helped combat where players place them on their goals for a match, but then it makes the challenge seem even less meaningful to players who aren't placing priority on them anyways.

Commendations also fit in this category, but the payouts are so laughably low that I don't think (or certainly wouldn't hope) players are entering playlists or playing a way they normally wouldn't to work up a commendation. But it's these types of rewards that players are looking to 'exploit' to give them that new 'rank' that takes so many credits to rank up to. Whether we accept that the new 'ranks' should be considered 'ranks' and are representative of a player's 'skill,' it's already been established by much of the community that they are in fact that. And players want that highest rank the fastest way possible, whether they believe it will strike fear in the other team or they are just achievement hunters.

The challenge system is a great new feature and I for one love tackling them, but I can't say I haven't seen how it (and cR payouts in general) negatively affects play-styles that made Halo MM so much fun in the past.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Problem with Halo Reach's melee is really, like Halo 3, the poor simultaneous beatdowns.

Problem with Reach melee is that you can wipe out an advantage a player had that was shooting you, and because of sprint there really isn't anything a player can do to defend against it.

 

[Tawpgun]

Problem with Halo Reach's melee is really, like Halo 3, the poor simultaneous beatdowns.

That's not as big of a deal as the sprint rushing. I could see a guy first. Shoot him once and if he doesn't do a typical grenade panic he'll just run at me. Even if I get 3 shots into him (one below no shields) he can melee me and then we'll both be on even ground...

It's that aspect that pisses me off.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Problem with Reach melee is that you can wipe out an advantage a player had that was shooting you, and because of sprint there really isn't anything a player can do to defend against it.

Nothing quite as frustrating as going for those four shots to drop shields before they're in your face only to lose that last one to bloom.

 

[stephen08]

That's not as big of a deal as the sprint rushing. I could see a guy first. Shoot him once and if he doesn't do a typical grenade panic he'll just run at me. Even if I get 3 shots into him (one below no shields) he can melee me and then we'll both be on even ground...

It's that aspect that pisses me off.

I absolutely agree with this. I love most of the changes in Reach but it gets frustrating when people start lobbing grenades or go in for the melee as soon as a fight starts. At that point they are playing to trade-off kills and it just sullies the experience. In previous games these tactics simply were not effective. The worst map for this is Countdown in my experience. So much CQB.

 

[Merguson]

Rumble pit is oh so very boring. In Fact Reach is oh so boring by yourself. Unless you like Firefight that is..

So very true.

I used to play Halo by myself but ever since I played BTB with a group of people, I am completely spoiled.

 

[Striker]

That's not as big of a deal as the sprint rushing. I could see a guy first. Shoot him once and if he doesn't do a typical grenade panic he'll just run at me. Even if I get 3 shots into him (one below no shields) he can melee me and then we'll both be on even ground...

It's that aspect that pisses me off.

I'm not expecting the melee bleed-through to change, maybe for Halo 4, however. My biggest gripe with things are both exchanging kills despite me hitting him first. It's a joke.

 

[Kuroyume]

Remove the melee lunge and all the melee issues go away. Or at the very least make it so the lunge isn't so magnetic and fast. Tone that shit down.

I think think that H2 vehicle balance was the best in the series.

Amen.

They lasted long enough to get you places. Very easy to handle. Good fire power but health kept in check so they weren't abused.

Look, I'll deal with a lot of new crap for Halo 4 if it happens. At the very least though have good vehicle balance. Give us that at the very least. Use the player movement and vehicle settings from Halo 2 and get rid of the mongoose and mancannons and overpowered vehicles.

Warthogs that are fun to drive and aren't annoying.
Banshees and tanks that don't make people hate the game.

You can't improve on perfection.

 

[feel]

Problem with Halo Reach's melee is really, like Halo 3, the poor simultaneous beatdowns.

It was fixed in Halo 3, only happens with very close punches and health levels, it can't be removed because then the best connection would almost always win and frustrate many more people. I never feel cheated by it (well, ok sometimes). The problem with Reach default is that people can just rush across the room at you absorbing shots that become irrelevant once they force a melee duel that put both participants back at the exact same closeness to death, leading to tons of simultaneous beatdowns (and the guy with the emptier rifle feeling cheated). MLG applied a decent solution, it should be applied to default if there's not shield bleed through included on the title update.

edit- beaten

I'm not expecting the melee bleed-through to change, maybe for Halo 4, however. My biggest gripe with things are both exchanging kills despite me hitting him first. It's a joke.

He probably hit you first, too.

 

[Devolution]

If objective games weren't so half-assed you'd see more credits for winning/doing the objective quicker as a reward for excellent team play. And in games where it's one flag/one bomb, if a team is up 2-0 after three rounds, the game should end since the other team cannot possibly win or tie.

In fact I think ties are stupid in general, the team who did their runs in the fastest accumulated time should win.

 

[Kuroyume]

The problem with Reach default is that people can just rush across the room at you absorbing shots that become irrelevant once they force a melee duel that put both participants back at the exact same closeness to death, leading to tons of simultaneous beatdowns (and the guy with the emptier rifle feeling cheated).

The problem is rate of fire and nerfing good weapons. I never had a problem with those sprint melee guys in the beta. Pistol destroyed them. Now? Forget it. It's at best a toss up or I'm dead. That said it's not that big of an issue with sprint since most people hardly use sprint.

 

[Devolution]

I forgot to mention spawns in objective games infuriate me so much I want to punch the nearest child.

 

[Tawpgun]

I'm not expecting the melee bleed-through to change, maybe for Halo 4, however. My biggest gripe with things are both exchanging kills despite me hitting him first. It's a joke.

It needs to be that way unfortunately. For the reasons that Letters said.

Pre-patch Halo 3 it would feel like you would melee first but still lose. That's connection and latency. Reach's improved netcode wouldn't help much.

 

[Devolution]

It needs to be that way unfortunately. For the reasons that Letters said.

Pre-patch Halo 3 it would feel like you would melee first but still lose. That's connection and latency. Reach's improved netcode wouldn't help much.

I'm just gonna say it, melee should go back to Halo CE damage levels. It should have stayed a "closer" type move not one that takes shields down. I blame that whole bXr/bXb movement as well.

 

[Steelyuhas]

The problem is rate of fire and nerfing good weapons. I never had a problem with those sprint melee guys in the beta. Pistol destroyed them. Now? Forget it. It's at best a toss up or I'm dead. That said it's not that big of an issue with sprint since most people hardly use sprint.

Beta Pistol makes the game better plain and simple.

 

[stephen08]

It needs to be that way unfortunately. For the reasons that Letters said.

Pre-patch Halo 3 it would feel like you would melee first but still lose. That's connection and latency. Reach's improved netcode wouldn't help much.

That's inaccurate though. Halo 3 specifically had it so that there was a window in which a simultaneous hit could occur and when it did the person with more health won out. The problem was that the window was a little too large. So you would get instances where two people were both low enough health to be killed by a melee but one person would have slightly more and thus they could strike late and still win. This was shown even in local games.

 

[Narpas Sword0]

Nothing quite as frustrating as going for those four shots to drop shields before they're in your face only to lose that last one to bloom.

Nothing worse than playing a game that requires 5 shots to kill a person at best

 

[FyreWulff]

What they did was add a spread. If you had (say) 55 HP and the other person had 56, they would win the melee contest. So people felt like they were losing when they shouldn't be because a single BR or AR bullet would hit one person but not the other.

I seem to remember that the spread they added was 26 HP. If you had less than a 26 HP spread on the other person, simuldeath. Beat the spread, you win the melee contest and live on.

edit:

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=13233

bam

edit2: spread is 26.5 . That's kind of scary that I was able to remember that it was around 26 without looking it up :lol

 

[Striker]

It needs to be that way unfortunately. For the reasons that Letters said.

Pre-patch Halo 3 it would feel like you would melee first but still lose. That's connection and latency. Reach's improved netcode wouldn't help much.

It's "fair" in Halo 3 and Reach's theme, but that's ridiculous. If I swing and initiate contact with my melee, especially if it's a flag or bomb, I deserve the kill and not exchanging a death. Never had issues with it in Halo 2, then again it felt like they stripped everything good that game had.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Hey it bugs me too. I just play Squad and Arena for the most part now. TS got bad because of overload of Forge maps anyhow.

I've been playing the Premium lists lately, AL doesn't seem to bad in there either.

I haven't even played squad, I got fed up and moved on to Gears 2. With Gears 3 around the corner I see no reason to give Reach another chance. Here's hoping 343 don't continue the assy trend Bungie left with Reach.

Make the game fun again Frankie, not a troll/grief fest. (basically take all the frustrating bullshit out)

 

[Tawpgun]

That's inaccurate though. Halo 3 specifically had it so that there was a window in which a simultaneous hit could occur and when it did the person with more health won out. The problem was that the window was a little too large. So you would get instances where two people were both low enough health to be killed by a melee but one person would have slightly more and thus they could strike late and still win. This was shown even in local games.

Latency still played a role though. If you made that window smaller the same thing would happen and host would win most battles like that.

Solution: DEDICATED SERVERS

Nothing worse than playing a game that requires 5 shots to kill a person at best

Yeah, I think everyone wants to go back to Halo 2/3 kill times. Anyone really opposed?

That along with faster movement and increased mobility back to Halo 2 levels.

What they did was add a spread. If you had (say) 55 HP and the other person had 56, they would win the melee contest. So people felt like they were losing when they shouldn't be because a single BR or AR bullet would hit one person but not the other.

I seem to remember that the spread they added was 26 HP. If you had less than a 26 HP spread on the other person, simuldeath. Beat the spread, you win the melee contest and live on.

edit:

http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=topnews&cid=13233

bam

edit2: spread is 26.5 . That's kind of scary that I was able to remember that it was around 26 without looking it up :lol

Damn, really? That IS a huge window. Not a fan.

Sounds like more reasons for dedicated servers. Is there any reason Halo can't have them besides money issues or something?

Gears 3 ranked has a similar structure to Halo games. Meaning you matchmake and get matched with a team and then the game starts. And they're going to have Dedi's.

 

[vhfive]

I enjoy when people sprint at me without ever shooting and then we get simultaneous deaths because he double melees.

Halo at it's finest

 

[Homeboyd]

Yeah, I think everyone wants to go back to Halo 2/3 kill times. Anyone really opposed?

Not I.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Yeah, I think everyone wants to go back to Halo 2/3 kill times. Anyone really opposed?

That along with faster movement and increased mobility back to Halo 2 levels.

Which one for kill times? Halo 3's kill times are closer to Reach's than to Halo 2's.

Absolutely agree about the movement and mobility of Halo 2, I'd like to see kill times close to Halo 2 as well.

 

[FyreWulff]

Which kill times of Halo 2? The intended ones or the glitched ones? Remember, a ton of people were using macro controllers to do doubleshots with the BR by just pulling their trigger..

 

[Steelyuhas]

Which kill times of Halo 2? The intended ones or the glitched ones? Remember, a ton of people were using macro controllers to do doubleshots with the BR by just pulling their trigger..

Intended for me, which is still significantly faster than Halo 3. Halo 2 is so good for 4v4 because the kill times are a great balance of individuals being able to wreck and teamwork being important. Halo 3 and Reach limit the individuals ability to run train on lesser players too much in my opinion.

 

[Nutter]

I think its safe to say without Bloom, the kill times would be crazy fast. Which imo would be very very awesome. Hell the AA's would not cause so much Rage as they do now.

 

[Devolution]

I think its safe to say without Bloom, the kill times would be crazy fast. Which imo would be very very awesome. Hell the AA's would not cause so much Rage as they do now.

I just never understood the point of implementing bloom. Still don't.

 

[Tawpgun]

Which kill times of Halo 2? The intended ones or the glitched ones? Remember, a ton of people were using macro controllers to do doubleshots with the BR by just pulling their trigger..

Regular ones. Halo 3's wouldn't be too bad either. Reach's feel a bit long. With things like sprint and evade being so popular, it makes running away from firefights so much easier.

Not I.

*sigh*

So you like the longer kill times and sluggish movement of Reach? Please explain why.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I just never understood the point of implementing bloom. Still don't.

Add a visual cue to the spread of weapons and give players more control over their rate of fire and accuracy, adding another layer to the skill of using a weapon.

Of course its implementation did not live up to that.

*sigh*

So you like the longer kill times and sluggish movement of Reach? Please explain why.

"Not I", as in he is not opposed to that haha.

 

[Devolution]

Regular ones. Halo 3's wouldn't be too bad either. Reach's feel a bit long. With things like sprint and evade being so popular, it makes running away from firefights so much easier.


*sigh*

So you like the longer kill times and sluggish movement of Reach? Please explain why.

I love sprint though because spawning in Reach is terrible. Especially in objectives/squad battle.

Add a visual cue to the spread of weapons and give players more control over their rate of fire and accuracy, adding another layer to the skill of using a weapon.

Of course its implementation did not live up to that.

I guess that's my problem then, I just find it stupid to implement such things sans dedicated hosting. To me it just adds another layer of bullshit when trying to play.

When I played the beta and at the beginning of Reach I really wanted to like this game, the direction seemed good but then it just seemed like several things in multiplayer were just half-assed compared to previous titles.

 

[Jack Scofield]

Seriously, what's the point of a jetpack if Bungie includes soft kill barriers EVERYWHERE? The roof above the hammer spawn on Powerhouse has one, and it's only about 10 feet above the ground. What's the point of having a jetpack in the game if you can't even go anywhere with it? But then Bungie includes a jetpack loadout on Uncaged, which completely breaks the map. I'm convinced these guys don't even play their own game, and spending five minutes with it, I don't blame them.

It boggles my mind how stupid and lazy the level and gameplay designs are in this game. Bungie sure has fallen a long way since Halo 2.

 

[Plywood]

There is no way to paint unsportsmanlike conduct as a noble means to make the game better. Especially when it is presented as it was, I called Tawpgun out on it and you responded to that. This is an attempt to save face.

Armor Abilities have nothing to do with what I was talking about.

Even taking all of that for granted though, it's the players who use these exploits that ultimately make them annoying to play against. Yeah, you cannot prevent the whole community from using them but you can control your own actions. And if you knowingly exploit these flaws well then I stand by my tools statement.

Ask yourself this:

If you were playing GAF customs would you do this?

If you say no, then you realize there is fundamentally a problem with your position.
If you say yes, then I can't imagine you would be an enjoyable presence.

I only pointed out that our game on Tempest actually points out how flawed the spawns(that are placed) and the spawn system itself is.

I'll admit I went into a rant about AA's but a number of them are by nature exploitative of not only the maps but a number of combat situations.

I play for fun and it just so happens that killing the opponents repeatedly was fun and I imagine will still be fun in the near future should I choose to do so once more. If you all see it as unsportsmanlike conduct I'll be sure to vote for Flag Slayer next time.

As for GAF customs in the rare event we do play a regular objective gametype, I would still likely be the player that is slaying while my teammates would be doing the objective.


With that said, I don't see how this affects the playlist population as a whole, because if that was the case, BTB would've been barren a week after it shipped. People getting huge killstreaks with Banshees on Paradiso? Yeah.

 

[Tawpgun]

"Not I", as in he is not opposed to that haha.

Oh ok. Good.

The more I think about it the more I think sprint is going to be in the game. Not because it will make the game better. But because literally EVERYONE else is doing it and people have gotten accustomed to it.

Sad realization for me.

If this is true (please don't be ) They at LEAST need to get rid of that sluggish movement. Make strafing viable again. Because I know if sprint stays in the game base speed is going to be slow.

 

[Risen]

I think its safe to say without Bloom, the kill times would be crazy fast. Which imo would be very very awesome. Hell the AA's would not cause so much Rage as they do now.

This...


Edit: Anyone on and want to run some games? GT Risen GBG

 

[FyreWulff]

Seriously, what's the point of a jetpack if Bungie includes soft kill barriers EVERYWHERE? The roof above the hammer spawn on Powerhouse has one, and it's only about 10 feet above the ground.

You must be playing Bizzaro Reach, because there's only one softkill on Powerhouse, and it's down in the waterfall to prevent people from hiding off the map.

 

[Sikamikanico]

Just been playing Halo 2 "Vista" Campaign on Legendary...

DAT HANGA BAY LEVEL

Fuck this shit is just awful. Crazy homing plasma pistol is my only hope!

In other news, I did post earlier about doing a HaloGAF montage...IS ANYONE INTERESTED, YES OR NO?

 

[Devolution]

Seriously, what's the point of a jetpack if Bungie includes soft kill barriers EVERYWHERE? The roof above the hammer spawn on Powerhouse has one, and it's only about 10 feet above the ground. What's the point of having a jetpack in the game if you can't even go anywhere with it? But then Bungie includes a jetpack loadout on Uncaged, which completely breaks the map. I'm convinced these guys don't even play their own game, and spending five minutes with it, I don't blame them.

It boggles my mind how stupid and lazy the level and gameplay designs are in this game. Bungie sure has fallen a long way since Halo 2.

it boggles my mind Uncaged was created in the first place. It lacks flow, there is no where to go unless you have a jetpack. I hate being this negative about a game but god damn, there is so much potential in it and so much can be fixed by better maps, AAs being picked up instead of loadouts and more intuitive spawning/objective game types.

But it's really all for naught when a bunch of new maps given to us are like built in an hour in forge. What a poke in the eye.

I will say that I've had some of the most fun with HaloGAFFers in reach, if there is one positive thing about this game it's that the AAs and vehicles have made for some ridiculously hilarious events.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Seriously, what's the point of a jetpack if Bungie includes soft kill barriers EVERYWHERE? The roof above the hammer spawn on Powerhouse has one, and it's only about 10 feet above the ground. What's the point of having a jetpack in the game if you can't even go anywhere with it? But then Bungie includes a jetpack loadout on Uncaged, which completely breaks the map. I'm convinced these guys don't even play their own game, and spending five minutes with it, I don't blame them.

It boggles my mind how stupid and lazy the level and gameplay designs are in this game. Bungie sure has fallen a long way since Halo 2.

It's a distraction or gives you vantage over cover.

If someone is looking up at you they aren't looking down at your buddies, likewise, if they are looking at your buddies, they aren't looking at you.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Just been playing Halo 2 "Vista" Campaign on Legendary...

DAT HANGA BAY LEVEL

Fuck this shit is just awful. Crazy homing plasma pistol is my only hope!

In other news, I did post earlier about doing a HaloGAF montage...IS ANYONE INTERESTED, YES OR NO?

Shit that's nothing. Wait till later. I can think of about 3 other spots that are total bullshit on that level or worse. The game is the only Halo game I've never beaten on legendary. I got to the last 4 levels and could never get out of the prophets chamber at the start and said fuck it after 2 years.

 

[Plywood]

You must be playing Bizzaro Reach, because there's only one softkill on Powerhouse, and it's down in the waterfall to prevent people from hiding off the map.

This is what he's talking about:



edit: I misread, he said the roof of the hammer spawn. It doesn't have a softkill what is he talking about?

 

[Blinding]

You must be playing Bizzaro Reach, because there's only one softkill on Powerhouse, and it's down in the waterfall to prevent people from hiding off the map.

No, I've experienced the softkill ontop of the gravity hammer spawn room as well, I think it was in Arena tho.

 

[Bregmann Roche]

Oh hey guys...um thanks for the heads up on that avatar question Frankie asked a while back.

Not one of you could muster an Admiral Akbar gif to help me out? Not cool guys... not cool...

Halo related content: Please make 3 melees the norm. Faster+jumpier would be great too but 3 melees to kill has to be part of the new Reach experience. Please 343 make it happen! You owe me this much Frankie! I took a bullet/unfortunate-google-image-results for you!

 

[HiredN00bs]

I like the way that no bleed-through reads, but I don't really like the idea in principle for reasons already mentioned. You could devise a system that more apparently shows shield damage, like with colors or something (I think Perfect Dark did this).

I also think that nerfing the melee damage is a step in the right direction. At least it keeps someone sprint-rushing from putting you on even footing.

I wonder if the number of playlists plays a part. Reach has a similar population to Halo 3, but there are many more playlists so the population is spread more thinly. In the premium playlists, there are usually less than 1,000 players when I'm in, and my experience seems to alternate between dominating games and getting crushed, with only a handful that are really evenly matched.

With Team Objective's lower population, the experience is going to be the same.

I think you're right on. Low player population is a detriment to the TruSkill system, but I also think that Reach's non-Arena playlists are lax in their TruSkill restrictions (but nobody really knows, except Bungie and maybe 343i, exactly how they relate to the TruSkill restrictions of Ranked/Social lists in Halo 3).

 

[Tunavi]

 

[Tawpgun]

Sup Jacob Mooney

*stalk mode engaged*