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Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come

T

thezerofire

Banned
senador said:
Cool. The difficulty and the people you play against changing makes sense. That doesn't mean someone a few levels lower or even a bunch lower can't relate to competitive Halo.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying they can't, but in general they don't. That's my experience. And it is experience from many many hours in this same discussion on b.net
 
O

orznge

Banned
a small sampling of things that have happened with each subsequent game after Halo CE in addition to having a skill-based matchmaking system:
  • increased magnetism
  • increased autoaim
  • reduced field of view
  • reduced freedom of player movement
 
K

Karl2177

Member
If you truly want the game to apply to the most people, you have to give players the opportunity to change the game into what they want to play. Allow MLG to tweak the settings and (in a sense) develop the multiplayer experience that they want. These settings have to be customizable to the nth degree, so that we can have it precisely what we need it to be. Bungie started off strong, but there's still a ton of work to be done to give the players what they want. I'll end on a quote by Chris Butcher, "Halo is more of a simulation engine."
 
O

orznge

Banned
Karl2177 said:
If you truly want the game to apply to the most people, you have to give players the opportunity to change the game into what they want to play. Allow MLG to tweak the settings and (in a sense) develop the multiplayer experience that they want. These settings have to be customizable to the nth degree, so that we can have it precisely what we need it to be. Bungie started off strong, but there's still a ton of work to be done to give the players what they want. I'll end on a quote by Chris Butcher, "Halo is more of a simulation engine."
Click to expand...

"If players are given too many options they might join a custom game and not immediately know what is going on" - idiots
 
D

Devolution

Member
What really bothers me is how much magnetism is lost scoped out, really? I don't want to scope in all of the damn time. CE pistol didn't have this problem. It restricts my field of view.
 
K

Karl2177

Member
orznge said:
"If players are given too many options they might join a custom game and not immediately know what is going on" - idiots
Click to expand...
Which is why defaults are placed in. If this is the main argument against it, I quit life.
 
S

senador

Banned
thezerofire said:
I'm not saying they can't, but in general they don't. That's my experience. And it is experience from many many hours in this same discussion on b.net
Click to expand...

Uh oh thezerofire's experience is from b.net, we will never be able to relate.

See what I did there. :p JK

bobs and zerofire, for the most part I want what your want out of Halo games, and I prefer the competitive aspect more than not. I just don't think its fair to discount someone based off not getting a 45. Sure, if they only got a 15 everyone could probably agree that they were a casual and totally wouldn't be able to relate, but I do believe that more than just 45s can talk competitive Halo and relate to each other.

Anyway, can we be friends and drop this now? :)

Edit: When you should discount someone is when they choose AR over BR. :p
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
bobs99 ... said:
I posted this opinion on another forum and got a lot of hate for it, but im going to post it here anyway. In my opinion if you are a level 20 and you only play other level 20's in matchmaking. Then how would you know what the playstyle is like at level 45? In my opinion the game changes drastically when you move into the higher ranks. You literally haven't experianced the full spectrum of the game if you have never progressed past level 20. I have friends who never got past 20ish and when I watch the gameplay at theyre house its horrendous, its just AR's rushing eachother without any thought to tactics.
Click to expand...


I can and do play with "45s" and I do know what is happening at that level (donging is happening). I could play against the Ogre Twins and know what was happening, what was enjoyable, what was being taken from the experience. I just couldn't prevent it from happening.

Obviously I am better than someone locked at 20, but I will never be as good as even an average MLG player. I am just too old. But a lot of it is science, a lot of it is art. And both of those things can and should be appriecated by players and designers alike. The people designing Formula One cars are nowhere near as good at driving them as the drivers, if that makes sense, but they constantly take feedback and input from the drivers to make the cars faster.
 
B

Booshka

Member
Devolution said:
What really bothers me is how much magnetism is lost scoped out, really? I don't want to scope in all of the damn time. CE pistol didn't have this problem. It restricts my field of view.
Click to expand...
Yep, CE plays better and more consistently because of this. You don't have the discrepancy of shooting with and without magnetism in the middle of almost all rifle battles, from H2 on. In CE, you hardly ever zoomed in, it was actually worse to zoom in.
 
B

Blinding

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
I never got to a 45 in Halo 3. And I know what's fun. The game requires a broad spectrum of players to enjoy it and for it to be enjoyable. The game needs to be fun and satisfying for "bad kids" as well as MLG Pros. It needs to appropriately match players with each other so that each is having the most enjoyable experience practical.
Click to expand...

And that can be accomplished with a lottttttt more customizable options then currently given in Reach.
 
H

Hypertrooper

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
I can and do play with "45s" and I do know what is happening at that level (donging is happening). I could play against the Ogre Twins and know what was happening, what was enjoyable, what was being taken from the experience. I just couldn't prevent it from happening.

Obviously I am better than someone locked at 20, but I will never be as good as even an average MLG player. I am just too old. But a lot of it is science, a lot of it is art. And both of those things can and should be appriecated by players and designers alike. The people designing Formula One cars are nowhere near as good at driving them as the drivers, if that makes sense, but they constantly take feedback and input from the drivers to make the cars faster.
Click to expand...
The one game we played together you played well.
 
T

thezerofire

Banned
senador said:
Uh oh thezerofire's experience is from b.net, we will never be able to relate.

See what I did there. :p JK

bobs and zerofire, for the most part I want what your want out of Halo games, and I prefer the competitive aspect more than not. I just don't think its fair to discount someone based off not getting a 45. Sure, if they only got a 15 everyone could probably agree that they were a casual and totally wouldn't be able to relate, but I do believe that more than just 45s can talk competitive Halo and relate to each other.

Anyway, can we be friends and drop this now? :)
Click to expand...
I'm not discounting them (or trying not to), just saying that the experiences of either group are not going to be very comparable, unless you're someone like Frankie who gets a good amount of cross-level play.

But I don't think it should be as controversial as it apparently is to say that someone who plays at a high level knows more about playing at a high level than someone who plays at a low level.
 
F

Farooq

Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
I can and do play with "45s" and I do know what is happening at that level (donging is happening). I could play against the Ogre Twins and know what was happening, what was enjoyable, what was being taken from the experience. I just couldn't prevent it from happening.

Obviously I am better than someone locked at 20, but I will never be as good as even an average MLG player. I am just too old. But a lot of it is science, a lot of it is art. And both of those things can and should be appriecated by players and designers alike. The people designing Formula One cars are nowhere near as good at driving them as the drivers, if that makes sense, but they constantly take feedback and input from the drivers to make the cars faster.
Click to expand...


So what Bungie did is design a mini van for soccer mom Jane, and asked a couple of Formula 1 drivers to take on it the track. Right?

I am only kidding.
 
B

bobs...onGaf

Member
senador said:
Uh oh thezerofire's experience is from b.net, we will never be able to relate.

See what I did there. :p JK

bobs and zerofire, for the most part I want what your want out of Halo games, and I prefer the competitive aspect more than not. I just don't think its fair to discount someone based off not getting a 45. Sure, if they only got a 15 everyone could probably agree that they were a casual and totally wouldn't be able to relate, but I do believe that more than just 45s can talk competitive Halo and relate to each other.

Anyway, can we be friends and drop this now? :)
Click to expand...


Just to be totally clear, my point was that at different levels of matchmaking players have different experiences. Not that everyone should be going for the higher ends of matchmaking. Or that its even fun for most people to do that.

I sure as hell dont discount people for not getting a 45, pretty much the vast majority of my irl friends are in in random areas of the ranking scale. I have a core group of Uni friends that play it to get to 50's etc, but personally I think playing relaxed social is more fun and so do the vast majority of my friends. For a Halo game to succeed its got to hit that sweet spot where it allows for the competitive to be competitive and also have something for the casual fans, AND have something for the people inbetween.

So yeah I dont discount anyone for not getting a 45, and I sure as hell dont let it influence what I think of theyre opinions. That said if you havent ever played competitively you cant make sweeping statements about the game from that point of view. Its hard to state my opinion without sounding like im being elitist, but im really not. The distinction is that while I wont say someones opinion is totally wrong, I would feel that they may have missed something when coming to that opinion.
 
D

Devolution

Member
bobs99 ... said:
Careful there Juices, that NeoGaf bloom is turning your posts all weird.
Click to expand...

juicespost.png
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
It's amazing how quick people are to boot you for betrayals these days. And by that I mean, literally how fast they click "boot player" on their screen. There I am absolutely destroying souls in the wraith on Hemorrhage.. Saving flag caps from the enemy.. Nabbing lucky triple kills from across the map.. Then all the sudden, I happen to tag a teammate from 3/4 of the map away and before the announcer can even announce "betr.."

*BOOT*

I swear I was at the menu screen before the wraith shot even exploded.

Maybe its not the game sometimes... Just the shitty side of the community showing it's true colors so often.

Ehh...
 
S

senador

Banned
thezerofire said:
I'm not discounting them (or trying not to), just saying that the experiences of either group are not going to be very comparable, unless you're someone like Frankie who gets a good amount of cross-level play.
Click to expand...

Bah, even that I don't agree with. Anyone who is trying to get better, plays a lot, etc should be able to relate. The game doesn't change at high level play, just the players. That's more about instinct, skill, training, etc than being able to relate to the game. I agree with you about casuals and weekend warrior Halo players vs competitive players, the 2 groups won't relate well. But high level vs competitive not high level should be able to relate just fine.

Anyway, I'll drop it here.

Edit to add yours:
thezerofire said:
But I don't think it should be as controversial as it apparently is to say that someone who plays at a high level knows more about playing at a high level than someone who plays at a low level.
Click to expand...

I don't think so either at all, and I agree. If you had posted this initially instead I would have agreed and not even posted.
 
S

stephen08

Member
thezerofire said:
This has been a very long discussion on b.net before this one, I wouldn't presume that I was making it up if I was you. Since you've never made it past 45, I wouldn't imagine you'd know if there was a difference. I do though, and there is.

And my original point was that the arguing was pointless, but thanks for putting words in my mouth. And I never said the opinion was worthless, I said that the people at higher levels had better knowledge of the game.
Click to expand...

You know who I played with being at 44? People 34-50. You played people 37-50. You are not playing a different game than I am. I'm not putting words in your mouth, I am taking what your post was. You are trying to deflect to be about different skill levels play the game differently which is not a point you would have been making regarding me in the first place. Better knowledge of the game is not debatable though. I know these games inside out. You have no clue what I know based on a number from a previous game in the series from 4 years ago.

And also, you just sourced Bungie.net to prove a point. You have failed to present any compelling evidence for your initial post to me and as such you should either apologize, or stop posting about it further. Your initial post, applied to me, is either an attempt to be a dick or is 100% totally inaccurate in it's implication. I'll let you pick.
 
T

thezerofire

Banned
senador said:
I don't think so either at all, and I agree. If you had posted this initially instead I would have agreed and not even posted.
Click to expand...
that's what I'm trying to say. Someone who plays at a high level knows what it's like to play at both a high and low level, but it doesn't work the other way around. And it's not the game that changes (mostly anyway), it's the meta-game.
 
S

senador

Banned
thezerofire said:
that's what I'm trying to say. Someone who plays at a high level knows what it's like to play at both a high and low level, but it doesn't work the other way around. And it's not the game that changes (mostly anyway), it's the meta-game.
Click to expand...

We'll have to agree to disagree then. I say sure it does work the other way around. A casual won't know, but I am not a casual and I wouldn't say stephen is, and I know what high level play is like, I just can't do it myself.

I don't agree with stephen's opinions but saying the 2 sides can't relate isn't accurate IMO.

For reals I am done now. :)
 
T

thezerofire

Banned
senador said:
We'll have to agree to disagree then. I say sure it does work the other way around. A casual won't know, but I am not a casual and I wouldn't say stephen is, and I know what high level play is like, I just can't do it myself.

I don't agree with stephen's opinions but saying the 2 sides can't relate isn't accurate IMO.

For reals I am done now. :)
Click to expand...
again, wasn't saying they can't, I was saying in general they don't. there is a logical difference.
 
B

bobs...onGaf

Member
OuterWorldVoice said:
I can and do play with "45s" and I do know what is happening at that level (donging is happening). I could play against the Ogre Twins and know what was happening, what was enjoyable, what was being taken from the experience. I just couldn't prevent it from happening.

Obviously I am better than someone locked at 20, but I will never be as good as even an average MLG player. I am just too old. But a lot of it is science, a lot of it is art. And both of those things can and should be appriecated by players and designers alike. The people designing Formula One cars are nowhere near as good at driving them as the drivers, if that makes sense, but they constantly take feedback and input from the drivers to make the cars faster.
Click to expand...

I already replied, and while it wasn't to you I think it still stands. Not everyone is going to care about that stuff, and not everyone should. Halo is a pretty diverse game and its great that people enjoy it from across the spectrum.

That said people who play more casually are going to get a pretty difference experience than those that play competitively. Your a rare case because you play across the spectrum.

I find your position a little clinical, you may not play the game competitively, buy you say through observation that you 'get it'. I personally dont think that you can truly get it unless you play it at that level. Thats just my opinion. Im also of the opinion that not everyone should play it to that level, because playing it to that level isnt going to appeal to everyone.

I dont play it to that level, I dont really enjoy taking it that seriously. I couldn't begin to imagine what the thoughts going through MLG players minds as they play, I cant get a 50 in MLG and so im sure that there are certain tactics that I have probably never seen, that you wouldn't see unless you played it at that level. Halo at that level requires pretty quick thinking more than anything, and a strong sense of awareness, unless you have pulled off the multikills against ogre how can you really get what goes through your head as you decide to try a certain move? Its only when your thinking of your options in that situation where you really get a grasp of "Im so glad I can do x in Halo as it will save my ass here".

Maybe im putting things out too literally there but I really doubt anyone has seen the full spectrum of Halo play. Never mind the level 20 who just wants to run at someone with a AR. :p

Ultimatly though, I feel that there is a underlying vibe to this whole conversation where people judge eachother on rank. Im trying to seperate that from my point as much as possible. So what if someones only a level 20, ultimatly halo skill doesnt mean much. lol
 
S

senador

Banned
thezerofire said:
again, wasn't saying they can't, I was saying in general they don't. there is a logical difference.
Click to expand...

Bah, I just can't stop...

It didn't seem you were just trying to say in general they don't. If that's the case what was your point bringing up the 45 with stephen? I'm sorry but I think he has a point with this:

stephen08 said:
You have failed to present any compelling evidence for your initial post to me and as such you should either apologize, or stop posting about it further. Your initial post, applied to me, is either an attempt to be a dick or is 100% totally inaccurate in it's implication. I'll let you pick.
Click to expand...

Granted you only "keep posting about it" because of me. Sorry.


bobs99 ... said:
I already replied, and while it wasn't to you I think it still stands. Not everyone is going to care about that stuff, and not everyone should. Halo is a pretty diverse game and its great that people enjoy it from across the spectrum.

That said people who play more casually are going to get a pretty difference experience than those that play competitively. Your a rare case because you play across the spectrum.

I find your position a little clinical, you may not play the game competitively, buy you say through observation that you 'get it'. I personally dont think that you can truly get it unless you play it at that level. Thats just my opinion. Im also of the opinion that not everyone should play it to that level, because playing it to that level isnt going to appeal to everyone.

I dont play it to that level, I dont really enjoy taking it that seriously. I couldn't begin to imagine what the thoughts going through MLG players minds as they play, I cant get a 50 in MLG and so im sure that there are certain tactics that I have probably never seen, that you wouldn't see unless you played it at that level. Halo at that level requires pretty quick thinking more than anything, and a strong sense of awareness, unless you have pulled off the multikills against ogre how can you really get what goes through your head as you decide to try a certain move? Its only when your thinking of your options in that situation where you really get a grasp of "Im so glad I can do x in Halo as it will save my ass here".

Maybe im putting things out too literally there but I really doubt anyone has seen the full spectrum of Halo play. Never mind the level 20 who just wants to run at someone with a AR. :p

Ultimatly though, I feel that there is a underlying vibe to this whole conversation where people judge eachother on rank. Im trying to seperate that from my point as much as possible. So what if someones only a level 20, ultimatly halo skill doesnt mean much. lol
Click to expand...

2 things...

If what you keep saying about high level play is really relevant, it doesn't matter anyway. Those who play Halo at a high level are few. There are far more low level casuals and mid level players than there are high level. Who do you think they'll make the game for? Obviously all, but more so for the majority. I'd hope mostly for that mid level player though.

I don't want to put weight in ranks either, my point all along has just been more that casuals vs competitive players are different regardless of rank.

I am a good example of this. I sucked at 3 and was a casual til then end and by then it was too late. With Reach I have been actively trying to get better. My aim is improving, my game is better, my K/D is climbing. I want more competitive play, but by no means am I a high level player, but I don't think that matters anyway.

tl;dr Competitive vs Casual is the real "issue" and how to balance both, IMO.
 
B

bobs...onGaf

Member
senador - I agree, I probably went a little off tangeant to prove my point, but I do agree with you, the upper extreme are a pretty small minority. I think Halo 3 had the balance right even though many may not agree. Halo 3 allowed for people pretty much across the spectrum to have fun. Sure the super hyper competitive may not have got theyre fix, but I loved it.

I think I got too stuck arguing semantics to really get into the meat of the discussion here.
 
T

The Henery

Member
Ramirez said:
Stephen is that guy always camping top gold with sword/shotgun on Swordbase, the only way one could really enjoy that map.

^ So true VH, this game is so broken it's not even worth arguing about anymore, the game's getting a TU for a reason. It won't fix everything, but maybe it can salvage it enough to make it til Halo 4. I'm interested in seeing how far Reach is gonna drop once all the big MP games come out this holiday.
Click to expand...

Population was worryingly low when I played this afternoon, it was at 18000 or so. A few months ago it was consistently around 30000 at that time of day for me in the UK. The exodus has begun already. Hopefully the TU wrestles some of them back, trueskill is bad enough as it is.

1-50 would addict a lot of people again.
 
B

Booshka

Member
Tashi0106 said:
I love evade, just not when everyone starts with it.

Speaking of awesome, has anyone tried MLG v6 yet. I haven't been able to play in days so I havent't tried it out yet or even seen the gametypes. Any new maps?
Click to expand...
Oasis is new, TS and King, not sure if they are using only one or both, Nexus Hill may be on there, Pit is back, not sure if it is CTF, TS or both either. I think Android is out, and Redemption and Sanc have revised versions. That is about all I know.

Going from Streams, it looks like Oasis plays and looks great, Pit isn't really working with Sprint, and Nexus is a toss up. I haven't seen the revised versions of Sanc or Redemption.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Booshka said:
Oasis is new, TS and King, not sure if they are using only one or both, Nexus Hill may be on there, Pit is back, not sure if it is CTF, TS or both either. I think Android is out, and Redemption and Sanc have revised versions. That is about all I know.

Going from Streams, it looks like Oasis plays and looks great, Pit isn't really working with Sprint, and Nexus is a toss up. I haven't seen the revised versions of Sanc or Redemption.
Click to expand...
Are those the real gametypes that will be played on the circuit or just part of a massive lot like MLG has been doing for a while in Reach? If the former, that's a pretty damn drastic change.
 
K

kylej

Banned
Tashi0106 said:
Kyle u mad bro? Play MLG
Click to expand...

Played MLG with Juices & Co. the other day. Same bad kids as every other playlist except half of them have a lower case "I" in front of their names. Think we went, like, 10-0 and juices got a perfection his second game in. It's fun, though. If everything weren't so damn grey I'd probably never leave.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
kylej said:
Played MLG with Juices & Co. the other day. Same bad kids as every other playlist except half of them have a lower case "I" in front of their names. Think we went, like, 10-0 and juices got a perfection his second game in. It's fun, though. If everything weren't so damn grey I'd probably never leave.
Click to expand...
Lol I never thought about the lower case i's. It's true.
 
B

Booshka

Member
Tashi0106 said:
Are those the real gametypes that will be played on the circuit or just part of a massive lot like MLG has been doing for a while in Reach? If the former, that's a pretty damn drastic change.
Click to expand...
I think Oasis and Pit are confirmed, and I am pretty sure that at least one King gametype will be in.
 
B

Blue Ninja

Member
Gui_PT said:
Isn't this how cutscenes are usually done?

The game I worked on did exactly the same thing.
Click to expand...
Yes it is. It's a lot cheaper than just having stuff stuff you'll never see.

Im_So_Pringles said:
Woah woah woah. How do you do this? I'd love to be able to do this myself. This kind of stuff is like porn for 3D artsists.
Click to expand...
Pan-cam coordinates. Check out pete_the_duck's post over at HBO on how to do it in Halo 3/ODST or my own post if you're interested in doing it in Reach.

If you need any more help, send me a PM.
 
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