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Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
ncsuDuncan
Member
Ramirez said:
Eh, half sarcastic, half serious. But mostly just trying
failing
As for the "games as art" debate:
Some movies are art. (insert your favorite Oscar winner here)
Some movies are just movies. (Anything with Kevin James.)
Just because the entertainment is interactive now doesn't mean games can't be art as well. And it's important to the artists, it doesn't have to be important to you.
I just find sweeping generalizations amusing and posted a few of my favorites.
Saul Bellow has my favorite description of art on the human condition.
"I feel that art has something to do with the achievement of stillness in the midst of chaos. A stillness which characterizes prayer, too, and the eye of the storm. I think that art has something to do with an arrest of attention in the midst of distraction."
If you like video games who cares what other people think.
"I feel that art has something to do with the achievement of stillness in the midst of chaos. A stillness which characterizes prayer, too, and the eye of the storm. I think that art has something to do with an arrest of attention in the midst of distraction."
If you like video games who cares what other people think.
Devolution
Member
Ramirez said:
Same reason anyone who has an interest in something doesn't want to see it mired in ignorance really. More people who realize the craftsmanship that actually goes into the production of video games, the better. It's not even a heated debate, to suggest that video games aren't art is certifiably stupid, on what basis is this assertion being made? Because I see so much evidence on the contrary.
kylej said:
Talking with uppity artists on this issue is always fun. And I'm not being sarcastic, I usually run circles around their "video games aren't art because I said so" line of shit.
Hypertrooper
Member
I'm German, we haven't any good comedians, so I'm happy with the guys, who tell me some kind of jokes. Thank you South Park for showing, that we are the unfunniest people on the world.Ramirez said:
Short form: You decide if it's art or not. Right? Great.ncsuDuncan said:
Did a good thing today. You can say thanks to me later. Devolution
Member
Hypertrooper said:Short form: You decide if it's art or not. Right? Great.
Nope. That's wrong too.
Short form: You don't dismiss something as "not art." You talk about why it's shitty art.
The Librarian
Banned
Some games are fun to play.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
We've started up a regular new series at Forward Unto Dawn called Beyond the Frontline where we put forward a short opinion piece about a topical Halo issue and attempt to start a conversation about it.
We've retroactively added last week's Ads article as the first entry in the series and today we have the second entry. It might be a bit familiar as the idea for the entry came up here a few weeks ago and it is essentially a cleaned up version of my post from then.
BTF #2 : A Halo Far, Far A-Waypoint
Someone suggested having the Halo Bulletins readable on the Xbox Waypoint app and it got me thinking about how Waypoint isnt what I want it to be. I love Waypoints content and features. Its awesome and slick especially since its essentially a premium product that we get for free. Im happy that Waypoint exists and I hope to see it stick around for a very long time.
I also hate Waypoint.
I hate what it is. I hate the fact that Waypoint is a seperate app on the Xbox. Why does Waypoint need to be separated so entirely from the Halo games? Why cant we access Waypoint, including the new expanded content coming soon, from within the game itself?
The downside of using Waypoint is that you need to disconnect from playing Halo in order to tap into Halo Waypoint which is supposed to link you into the Halo games. But it doesnt. It forces you to disconnect from Halo if you want to use it.
Waypoint has a nice suite of unique achievements and social items but the simple fact that you have to use Waypoint in the least social way possible to access it mostly defeats the purpose. Playing Halo with your buddies and want to check out Waypoint? Tough. You need to leave your friends behind and stop playing the game. Not every Halo player will use or even see Waypoint in any form simply because it is so disconnected from the games. Most Halo fans dont even know it exists.
The average player buys the game and boots it up the Xbox and just plays. Maybe the player will stumble across the Waypoint shortcut buried in Reachs Start menu, but considering the warning that you have to leave your gameplay session to investigate further surely stops a numbers of people.
Imagine playing some Halo with your party. You play some Customs and then some Matchmaking. You start smack talking and decide to compare some stats and its all there in the game as you dont have to leave. Maybe youll create a weekly challenge there and then and challenge everyone in your current party. Maybe youre on your own and your buddies arent online so you select one of the recent Sparkast episodes to stream over the headset instead of listening to a bunch of teenagers insult you from the opposite (and occasionally your own) team.
Maybe after playing some games you want a break so you take your party over to Theatre 3.0 and watch some old Halo 3 Vidocs or Red vrs Blue. You start up matchmaking again and choose to keep on watching the videos with your buddies until voting starts you might even tolerate long waiting times between games.
I want to be able to check out the best Halo content from the community filtered by the Halo team on Waypoint but I want to enjoy that content from with Halo itself.
I have to force myself to remember to use it. Like many players I have my pc right beside me next to my television so there is little reason to visit the separate Waypoint app on the Xbox when I have the majority of the content at my fingertips already on the website.
The next update for Waypoint doesn't go far enough!
If Waypoint was built directly into the game, then it would make much more sense to access the content from the game itself and a significant portion of which would benefit from that kind of ease of access especially for those without a PC handy.
Theres a disconnect between the Waypoint app and the Waypoint web site. And a further barrier again between both of them and the actual Halo games. I hope theyre working on integrating Waypoint as a service within the game for future Halo titles. Its definitely where Waypoint should be headed.
--
So what do you guys think about Waypoint? The new update, as previewed during HaloFest should be adding many Bungie.net features (like the stats and player history) in addition to the new data pipeline that 343 have plugged into the back end of Reach and giving us player-created challenges and some more new features. All of this with a new Metro-style UI for the Xbox app.
As above, I think Waypoint should ultimately be integrated into the game themselves and have that wealth of content available for players in-game.
We've retroactively added last week's Ads article as the first entry in the series and today we have the second entry. It might be a bit familiar as the idea for the entry came up here a few weeks ago and it is essentially a cleaned up version of my post from then.
BTF #2 : A Halo Far, Far A-Waypoint
Someone suggested having the Halo Bulletins readable on the Xbox Waypoint app and it got me thinking about how Waypoint isnt what I want it to be. I love Waypoints content and features. Its awesome and slick especially since its essentially a premium product that we get for free. Im happy that Waypoint exists and I hope to see it stick around for a very long time.
I also hate Waypoint.
I hate what it is. I hate the fact that Waypoint is a seperate app on the Xbox. Why does Waypoint need to be separated so entirely from the Halo games? Why cant we access Waypoint, including the new expanded content coming soon, from within the game itself?
The downside of using Waypoint is that you need to disconnect from playing Halo in order to tap into Halo Waypoint which is supposed to link you into the Halo games. But it doesnt. It forces you to disconnect from Halo if you want to use it.
Waypoint has a nice suite of unique achievements and social items but the simple fact that you have to use Waypoint in the least social way possible to access it mostly defeats the purpose. Playing Halo with your buddies and want to check out Waypoint? Tough. You need to leave your friends behind and stop playing the game. Not every Halo player will use or even see Waypoint in any form simply because it is so disconnected from the games. Most Halo fans dont even know it exists.
The average player buys the game and boots it up the Xbox and just plays. Maybe the player will stumble across the Waypoint shortcut buried in Reachs Start menu, but considering the warning that you have to leave your gameplay session to investigate further surely stops a numbers of people.
Imagine playing some Halo with your party. You play some Customs and then some Matchmaking. You start smack talking and decide to compare some stats and its all there in the game as you dont have to leave. Maybe youll create a weekly challenge there and then and challenge everyone in your current party. Maybe youre on your own and your buddies arent online so you select one of the recent Sparkast episodes to stream over the headset instead of listening to a bunch of teenagers insult you from the opposite (and occasionally your own) team.
Maybe after playing some games you want a break so you take your party over to Theatre 3.0 and watch some old Halo 3 Vidocs or Red vrs Blue. You start up matchmaking again and choose to keep on watching the videos with your buddies until voting starts you might even tolerate long waiting times between games.
I want to be able to check out the best Halo content from the community filtered by the Halo team on Waypoint but I want to enjoy that content from with Halo itself.
I have to force myself to remember to use it. Like many players I have my pc right beside me next to my television so there is little reason to visit the separate Waypoint app on the Xbox when I have the majority of the content at my fingertips already on the website.
The next update for Waypoint doesn't go far enough!
If Waypoint was built directly into the game, then it would make much more sense to access the content from the game itself and a significant portion of which would benefit from that kind of ease of access especially for those without a PC handy.
Theres a disconnect between the Waypoint app and the Waypoint web site. And a further barrier again between both of them and the actual Halo games. I hope theyre working on integrating Waypoint as a service within the game for future Halo titles. Its definitely where Waypoint should be headed.
--
So what do you guys think about Waypoint? The new update, as previewed during HaloFest should be adding many Bungie.net features (like the stats and player history) in addition to the new data pipeline that 343 have plugged into the back end of Reach and giving us player-created challenges and some more new features. All of this with a new Metro-style UI for the Xbox app.
As above, I think Waypoint should ultimately be integrated into the game themselves and have that wealth of content available for players in-game.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
^ This a million times. Make Waypoint 3.0 part of the game experience.
Barrow Roll
Member
Not all games need to be artistic masterpieces like Shadow of the Colossus. That doesn't mean the entire medium can't be considered an art form.A27_StarWolf said:
And yes, there is most definitely a wrong way to play a game. If someone was playing Halo and never reloaded or took cover or threw grenades and they were all like "herp derp, this game sux" then they would most definitely be wrong. I didn't read the article so I'm not saying that's what whoever wrote it did, but you definitely can play a game wrong, art form or not.
And just to chime in on the customs discussion, I find the goofy gametypes a snorefest. You know what I do when you guys play Nascar or Jump Rope? I put down the controller and wait for it to end. It's not engaging and I don't find it fun. I'd much rather play whatever you guys are calling 'competitive customs' which to me is just regular Halo.
That said, you really shouldn't be chastising your team mates if they're not doing as well as you because for all you know they are trying their best. Nothing is on the line, and there's no need to get worked up. If you're gonna have an attitude problem in customs then kindly GTFO.
bobs...onGaf
Member
StalkerUKCG said:
100% If that just means that we get to read the articles between matches I will be far more interested in the service.
Devolution
Member
Dani said:
Said all I would have about the matter. My pc being right here means I don't have to look on Waypoint. Also having some sort of stat tracker in game, especially to take a peak at the competition, would be nice. Stuff like Waypoint really makes me wish there was clans again, how cool would it be to have like a social page for GAF with the latest screen shots of customs, links to games, maps, gametypes and clips etc.
Hydranockz
Member
I'm in the "Let it be" categoryDevolution said:
I can perfectly see why people like Ram might not see it as art but people will take from the games what they take. Ain't no point trying to change people. It's ok not to all it art.Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
bobs99 ... said:
Yeah that is what I was getting at. Imagine being able to listen to the latest Sparkast during your play session or watch some Fails or the Weak in between matches or just catch up with the Halo Bulletin during this downtime.
Heck, just having a complete player history of matches played and associated data would be a boon.
Halo Waypoint as it exists simply isn't reach it's full potential audience. Most Halo players, I don't think, will venture outside of the game very much so all that content produced by Waypoint and community content they moderate just isn't been seen by most players.
Devolution
Member
Hydranockz said:I'm in the "Let it be" category
No, it's really not. There's no justifiable reason to dismiss an entire medium. And I've never heard a reasonable argument why it wouldn't be considered art. Just "that's how I feel about it." Well that's not good enough. Art is art. You can thoroughly hate it, think it's ugly, I don't give a shit, I'm just tired of hearing "x isn't art because of my personal aesthetics." That's bullshit through and through. It's art, it's just not art you like.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Devolution said:
COD is using it's new service and integrating clans through it. If anything Waypoint could be used in the same way to bring that particular service back.
Hydranockz
Member
Your posts are art. I don't like your art.Devolution said:
Devolution
Member
Hydranockz said:
It's the lack of color isn't it?
Hydranockz
Member
There are only so many shades of grey/grayDevolution said:
Edit: Just to clarify, I am a big supporter of the idea that video games are an art form. Heck it's an area I'd love to work in (art/music/etc).
A fully integrated Waypoint would be a natural expansion of the situation we have with Reach.
Currrenly, we get a subset of our Service Record data (Commendations, Player History, etc.) as well as Challenges provided in-game via the Start menu, which are pulled down from Bungie.net. Separately, Waypoint can be launched as a stand alone app, ending the Reach session.
However, things like Commendations, Service Record and Challenges are all folding into Waypoint, which is the centralized one-stop shop for player history, in addition to the other content hosted there. It makes perfect sense to integrate Waypopint into Halo 4 in such a way that when we're pulling down data on our Service Record and whatever else we will have in Halo 4, that we're just viewing a direct in-game overlay of our Waypoint profile. Having access to the other content on the side would be natural, and gravy.
Issues around RAM space, loading and access time, etc. will all need to be worked out of course during integration, but I'd be surprised if we don't see something like this with Halo 4. It feels like that's what we're building toward with the migration of our stats and profiles to Waypoint.
Currrenly, we get a subset of our Service Record data (Commendations, Player History, etc.) as well as Challenges provided in-game via the Start menu, which are pulled down from Bungie.net. Separately, Waypoint can be launched as a stand alone app, ending the Reach session.
However, things like Commendations, Service Record and Challenges are all folding into Waypoint, which is the centralized one-stop shop for player history, in addition to the other content hosted there. It makes perfect sense to integrate Waypopint into Halo 4 in such a way that when we're pulling down data on our Service Record and whatever else we will have in Halo 4, that we're just viewing a direct in-game overlay of our Waypoint profile. Having access to the other content on the side would be natural, and gravy.
Issues around RAM space, loading and access time, etc. will all need to be worked out of course during integration, but I'd be surprised if we don't see something like this with Halo 4. It feels like that's what we're building toward with the migration of our stats and profiles to Waypoint.
ncsuDuncan
Member
Hydranockz said:There are only so many shades of grey/gray
Not the first time I've heard that in this thread.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
GhaleonEB said:
I think Waypoint needs to be built into Halo from the ground up, as say overlaying Waypoint as it exists on top of Halo 3 or Reach would certainly be impossible due to RAM, etc.
I'm just not sure we'll see the integration as soon as Halo 4 though it would be a lovely surprise.
Hydranockz said:I'm in the "Let it be" category
I never said it wasn't art, I just said I don't care. Starwolf acted as if his enjoyment of his hobby hinged on people accepting it as an art form some day.
The Librarian
Banned
I like the concept of Waypoint. It definitely needs to be integrated into the games; I shouldn't have to leave a Halo game to into Halo Waypoint.
I would also like Waypoint to be a Bnet on the consoles.
I would also like Waypoint to be a Bnet on the consoles.
Hydranockz
Member
Oh ok. That works for me too.Ramirez said:
Devolution
Member
Dani said:
I definitely think the "next" gen should work on integrating social features better, and I don't mean FB bullshit. But social groups, more ways to communicate through the game, especially while waiting for a game to load up. Being able to browse clips, make comments during down time, etc. Currently you have to exit the game itself or go into a completely different mode. I can see future consoles being much more like a PC with panels all doin' something different.
ncsuDuncan
Member
Yeah, sorry if I was arguing over things you never explictly said. I was just trying to make a point and be funny.Ramirez said:
Saying that games aren't art, or that they will never be art is foolish.
Still, you have every right to not care about the artistic merit of them though. Enjoy games however you wish.
Hydranockz
Member
The rest of the panels went up on Waypoint! Much love <3
http://www.twitch.tv/tashiii
Stream is up. MLG.
edit: first game in MM against the Suddoths lol
edit2: we got shit on
Stream is up. MLG.
edit: first game in MM against the Suddoths lol
edit2: we got shit on
Devin Olsen
Member
Tashi0106 said:http://www.twitch.tv/tashiii
Stream is up. MLG.
edit: first game in MM against the Suddoths lol
edit2: we got shit on
Hydranockz
Member
Devin Olsen said:
Devolution
Member
Their website is so toe up. I always wondered how twins decide who is 1 and 2. Who was birthed first?
A27_StarWolf
Banned
ncsuDuncan said:
As a upcoming New Media Designer, who's very interested in user interface and interaction, I don't give a shit if you don't care about the artistic merit of what I do.
The artistic merit is still there though.
Devin Olsen
Member
Hydranockz
Member
Not quite. Upon spawning (many, many years ago), both were asked to describe their reticule in the OP room. Number 2 described a simple circle. Number 1 was clearly identifying the initial effects of bloom/host.Devolution said:
And that is why he is the Number 1
He was playing campaign the right way I suppose... but he went in expecting some masterfully told, deep story, with a set of gameplay HE wanted and the game didn't provide.A27_StarWolf said:
That's like me going into Halo expecting a life-changing story and visceral, realistic gameplay.
Instead of appreciating what the game does, he rags on it for not doing what he wanted it to do.
Enemies taking a lot bullets? Yeah, they do. It's a game. It would be shit if they died after a burst of lancer fire. And it seems he can't get past the aspect of a machine gun and chainsaw + serious story dilemma...
So I can definitely say he was playing it wrong and taking it way too seriously. I love gears for its unique universe, and unique gameplay.
But what he said about multiplayer... that's him playing the wrong way. Seems like he was frustrated because he wasn't getting any kills and getting owned all the time.
We're talking about the exact same thing, just using different terms to describe it. Rather than pressing Start to pull up an option to launch a separate app for Waypoint (Reach), I want to have Waypoint (or its components) linked into the game itself. There are many ways to do this. It could be pulling up a standalone overlay for Waypoint, or having things like Service Record, News, Videos, etc. intergrated into the menu, etc.Dani said: