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Halo: Reach |OT6| There Are Those Who Said This Day Would Never Come

daedalius

Member
wwm0nkey said:
Really loved his character,
you also kind of felt for him too since he pretty much raised all those kids to spartan III's only for most of them to die, it was basically like him loosing 300 of his children and he made a noble sacrifice at the end to save what few of his 'children' where left. Also the "Spartans never die" line was used fucking PERFECTLY.

Yea no kidding. I was thinking that the Elite in command of the Onyx strike force was the same Shipmaster that helped Chief assault the Ark in H3
but I guess it wasn't since he basically ate 3 FENRIS nukes, along with 100 or so of his soldiers, heh

Spartans never die
 

wwm0nkey

Member
daedalius said:
Yea no kidding. I was thinking that the Elite in command of the Onyx strike force was the same Shipmaster that helped Chief assault the Ark in H3
but I guess it wasn't since he basically ate 3 FENRIS nukes, along with 100 or so of his soldiers, heh

Spartans never die
I seriously want to see that scene in Halo Wars level CGI. Bad ass levels where off the charts lol
 
I'd love a Halo game akin to Advance Wars... The universe really does allow for pretty much any type of game.

Moa Racer,
Grunt Olympics 2552,
Guilty GearSpark,
BeliEve Online,
SimCity: Grey Edition [Foreunner Expansion]...
 
Dax01 said:
So, Squidhands, I assume by your picture our discussion about The Ark made you play? ;P
Indeed. I might do The Covenant today, because that's probably my other favorite mission of the game.

edit: wow, those "journalists" are complete morons. I'd like to hear what other titles have done the 'Halo formula' better.
 
Crucio said:
I'm sure 343 will find a way to improve upon Bungie's netcode.

There's not really that much in there to improve actually. Most of the (very limited) changes to it in Reach were adding functionality such as host migration. Overall, it's a very simple model.

GhaleonEB said:
I'm aware of all this, and am familiar with the models and why they are used. But the fact is, for many games of Firefight, most players have a terrible time because of the input lag. I think it renders the game literally unplayable for anything other than hurling rockets at enemies. Something needs to be figured out, either a significant improvement on current system, or something else. Because the experience of significant input lag and an unplayable game are indistinguishable.

I don't have the data to say what the average person's experience is like in Firefight. All I have are personal anecdotes, like most of those posting here.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but given the nature of Halo's gameplay and the current limitations of the internet I just don't see how there can be any massive improvement without serious losses elsewhere, or telling a significant portion of the Halo population "your internet is too shit to play this; fuck off".
 
wwm0nkey said:
These idiots think that CEA MP is just Halo CE MP with a new graphics engine lol
The lack of armour abilities makes a huge impact on how you play. Tactics are completely unnecessary as it follows the same formula as the classic arcade style multiplayer from the early 2000s and, while it’s certainly fun in a mindless sort of way, it also feels like a step back after Halo: Reach’s more in-depth experience.

Without AAs it's just tacticless gameplay lololol.... wow...

ohwow.jpg
 

TheOddOne

Member
wwm0nkey said:
These idiots think that CEA MP is just Halo CE MP with a new graphics engine lol
Lolz

tumblr_l2xy3u8gV41qc073co1_400.gif
 
daedalius said:
Yea no kidding. I was thinking that the Elite in command of the Onyx strike force was the same Shipmaster that helped Chief assault the Ark in H3
but I guess it wasn't since he basically ate 3 FENRIS nukes, along with 100 or so of his soldiers, heh

Spartans never die
The Shipmaster from Halo 3 was the Spec-Ops Commander from Halo 2.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
from what I am assuming is the creator of the article on N4G (who is currently using guest account to down vote my comments)

The article was produced after hands-on play with Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary. The multiplayer build running was the original Halo CE multiplayer experience but with a new engine. The article clearly states this and also goes on to say about the Reach Multiplayer making an appearance in the package as well but likely as a separate entity.

There is a multiplayer component to Halo Anniversary beyond the Reach multiplayer. I know, I played it.

EDIT: Yep some how this piece of gaming "journalism" got approved.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Photolysis said:
I don't have the data to say what the average person's experience is like in Firefight. All I have are personal anecdotes, like most of those posting here.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but given the nature of Halo's gameplay and the current limitations of the internet I just don't see how there can be any massive improvement without serious losses elsewhere, or telling a significant portion of the Halo population "your internet is too shit to play this; fuck off".
The Firefight/Campaign net code saw a serious improvement from Halo 3/ODST to Reach, using the same networking model. Drop out was added, enabling matchmaking, and in my (anecdotal) evidence, my games are generally better than they were in ODST. Now, that may be a function of matchmaking - in ODST I could only play with friends, while matchmaking matches me up with people in part based on connection.

The improvement in net code from Halo 3's multiplayer to Reach's multiplayer was enormous. I remember Timmins saying they put someone on it for the equivalent of one full year, and found a way to make the net code 40% more efficient. It shows. Were that same level of improvement seen in the synchronous net code, it would be adequate.

Given the constant improvement in net code from release to release, I do not think for a moment that this is as good as it's going to get, and that's all there is. Reach was just Bungie's second iteration of the networking model (ODST used Halo 3's code). It is my hope that improving it is a high priority for Halo 4.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
thezerofire said:
Can someone more familiar with netcode issues explain to me why Firefight is really laggy a lot of the time, yet Horde isn't?
I would have said because halo has to synch up all the smart A.I but GoW3 has good A.I and doesnt lag so I am going to say its just shitty netcode for Firefight (and SP sometimes)
 
daedalius said:
So just finished Ghosts of Onyx...

I guess the planet Onyx is probably a peak of what the shield world Chief is traveling to in Halo 4; which is totally awesome. What do you guys think?

Now need to start on Cryptum and finish before Glasslands comes out... might be rough.
Well, considering GoO was written and published before Halo 3 was finished, I don't think you can view anything from GoO as a peak at Halo 4. Obviously there are plot points in Onyx that would allow us to make some reasonable speculation as to the nature and contents of the shield world in Halo 4, but any such speculation would prove to be less reliable, I think, than whatever we can draw from the Forerunner Trilogy and Glasslands. That's what they're for.

It's too bad Nylund isn't writing the sequel. No disrespect to Karen Traviss.
 

feel

Member
Can't blame them, seems like the typical pro-AA comments you would hear on a CEA mp video by the actual devs... :/

Where CEA MP vidoc #2?? A proper CEA mp vidoc this time, not a Reach map pack vidoc being called Anniversary Multiplayer Vidoc!!
 

Karl2177

Member
thezerofire said:
Can someone more familiar with netcode issues explain to me why Firefight is really laggy a lot of the time, yet Horde isn't?
wwm0nkey said:
I would have said because halo has to synch up all the smart A.I.
In essence, this. More technical, the networking is lock-step(synchronous) so that everybody is seeing the same AI elite doing the same combat roll.

wwm0nkey said:
but GoW3 has good A.I and doesnt lag so I am going to say its just shitty netcode for Firefight (and SP sometimes)
It's there aren't 12 different combat adjustments for an AI character in Gears. Hence why it is easier to predict the movements of AI in that than it is in Halo.
 
Karl2177 said:
In essence, this. More technical, the networking is lock-step(synchronous) so that everybody is seeing the same AI elite doing the same combat roll.

It's there aren't 12 different combat adjustments for an AI character in Gears. Hence why it is easier to predict the movements of AI in that than it is in Halo.
In comparison to how many for Halo? And what about Boss Waves for Horde?
 

ElRenoRaven

Member
wwm0nkey said:
that article is a perfect example of why not everyone should have a website.

Yes it is. Without a doubt if you don't have a damn clue what the hell you are talking about, you shouldn't be writing an article on it.
 
GhaleonEB said:
The improvement in net code from Halo 3's multiplayer to Reach's multiplayer was enormous. I remember Timmins saying they put someone on it for the equivalent of one full year, and found a way to make the net code 40% more efficient. It shows. Were that same level of improvement seen in the synchronous net code, it would be adequate.

(If you actually want to understand where the improvements came from in Reach, David Aldridge did an excellent powerpoint presentation which you can get from bungie.net.)

This is betraying a lack of understanding of the SP networking. Increasing efficiency in MP has a massive impact because so much data is thrown away during the host prioritising events. It also gives you more leeway when you really really need that bandwidth. But this isn't what happens in SP. Everything gets sent and for the most part the problems are not bandwidth related. If it was the cause, the game would constantly be pausing to allow players to catch up which is not what you're describing. Further, the required bandwidth is fairly reasonable when you look at a standard connection.

It doesn't matter how efficient the netcode is, it can't make those packets physically travel faster to your console, and it won't stop those on crappy ISPs from losing that information. Those problems exist because of the model, and the model exists because of the way the internet works and how complicated Halo is.

Other games stick to 4-8 AI characters using simple behaviours in closed environments where only a few are active at once. They don't network ragdolls, or have many interactive objects. You wouldn't have stuff like players being run over by a Brute chopper wheel that had been thrown out from the explosion because it would be a pre-computed animation and stuff like that simply wouldn't be networked. You wouldn't have a grenade float down a stream, or have a weapon roll down a hill. So they can use an asynchronous model and not have to worry about input lag.

Bungie do many things the hard way, but there is a price for that complexity. And what I describe above is certainly what I'd consider a shadow of the experience we've come to know and love in Halo.
 

FyreWulff

Member
GhaleonEB said:
The Firefight/Campaign net code saw a serious improvement from Halo 3/ODST to Reach, using the same networking model. Drop out was added, enabling matchmaking, and in my (anecdotal) evidence, my games are generally better than they were in ODST. Now, that may be a function of matchmaking - in ODST I could only play with friends, while matchmaking matches me up with people in part based on connection.

The improvement in net code from Halo 3's multiplayer to Reach's multiplayer was enormous. I remember Timmins saying they put someone on it for the equivalent of one full year, and found a way to make the net code 40% more efficient. It shows. Were that same level of improvement seen in the synchronous net code, it would be adequate.

Given the constant improvement in net code from release to release, I do not think for a moment that this is as good as it's going to get, and that's all there is. Reach was just Bungie's second iteration of the networking model (ODST used Halo 3's code). It is my hope that improving it is a high priority for Halo 4.

They can make it less fragile under spotty connections for disconnection purposes but that's about as good as it gets for synchronous networking. The only option to get rid of input lag is to go asynch and reduce AI count and complexity. The minimum lag for synchronous networking button inputs was reduced all the way down to 3 frames, according to Max Dychoff[1]. Asynch with 1 frame. Which is the fastest you're going to get. one frame to press your button, one frame for the other boxes to recieve that you pressed your button, and one frame for the other boxes to tell you that they recieved your button press.

The only improvements they can make at this point:

- hard match only to regional players
- ban players with > certain amount of latency and packet loss from even playing Firefight online

Every game with some sort of campaign co-op, like Splosion Man / Ms Splosion Man, Perfect Dark XBLA, TMNT '89 and so on are all using this, and all suffer from input lag on horrible connections. Super Smash Brothers Brawl uses it for multiplayer.


1. Max's comment on reddit

edit: I didn't see Photo's reply when I wrote this, don't want this to seem like double teaming. Sorry.
 

Karl2177

Member
wwm0nkey said:
Speaking of connections and syncing, here is an interesting article on how ipv6 will benefit games.

I had no idea that ipv6 will allow for a direct connection.
When you're expanding from 2^32 to 2^giant(I don't remember what v6 is), you don't have to rely on the communicating tricks of v4.

thezerofire said:
In comparison to how many for Halo? And what about Boss Waves for Horde?
I haven't played Gears 3 yet, but in my experience from Gears 2 I could predict what movements the enemies were going to make. It was mainly just timing it right.
 
Homeboyd said:
Is the whole bulletin the excerpt? Or am I missing something....
Prologue + Chapter 1 at Torbooks, Frankie foreword + chapter 2 is the whole bulletin. Deal with it. CEA news this Saturday. So patience.

We need a Guilty Spark deal with it gif.
 

Homeboyd

Member
Hypertrooper said:
Deal with it. CEA news this Saturday. So patience.
Chill brah, wasn't complaining. Just asking.

Sometimes I don't load the entire page and wanted to make sure there wasn't an update after the excerpt I wasn't seeing.
 

Ramirez

Member
Letters said:
Don't bother clicking if you don't care about the book, there's nothing else in it.

Pretty much this, lol. I kept scrolling...hoping...

Can't wait for CEA to come out so we can start getting some Halo 4 info.
 
Homeboyd said:
Chill brah, wasn't complaining. Just asking.

Sometimes I don't load the entire page and wanted to make sure there wasn't an update after the excerpt I wasn't seeing.
It was the perfect situation to complain that we don't have halo-themed deal with it gif. :^)

Btw. the bug should be fix now.(I think) :^)

PsychoRaven said:
Insert angry face here. Don't call it a damn bulletin if it isn't a freaking bulletin!!!!

GRRRRR
It's a bulletin. Why shouldn't it be a bulletin?
 
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