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[KidA Seven]

HaloNation Line of Sight show is coming up now for those interested. Most likely they will discuss recent news about no ranks, the future of Halo with MLG, No bloom/4sk/5sk and Halo 4 etc.

This show was damn good as well. It went more into the gameplay of Halo more so than Gandhi's which was just about Halo being possibly dropped from MLG. They brought up the same point that default settings can't differ too much from competitive Halo settings. The more Vanilla the better, but it must be competitive. I hope 343 can work with the players, especially those that have been around since CE or Halo 2. Those players have understood Halo multiplayer inside and out from the start, so it would be foolish to think they can't offer some help.


Edit: Timedog will own in this game. Him and his horse Hidalgo will ride to Donging glory.

 

[kittens]

After that Frankie teaser, I'm eagerly awaiting the Halo 4 terminals.

 

[Stinkles]

Someone has a future writing fanfic, I can tell.

Fixed

 

[Devolution]

Fixed

Yeah, have fun with that.

 

[Thagomizer]

Yeah, have fun with that.

its where the money is

 

[FyreWulff]

Just played a game on Ridgeline where I was buddy spawning my entire team directly onto each hill as it moved around the map.

Feelsgoodman

 

[StalkerUKCG]

Anniversary switching between pistol and dmr starts is horrible.

Zero bloom play lists please.

 

[Tunavi]

Holy shit, asslands, You never cease to impress, duncan

 

[Striker]

Once again, loadouts really need to be specific to a map and a gametype. I don't understand what's so difficult to implement about this.

Basically, although the area surrounding evade is simple. Remove it. It isn't pleaded by a certain map or gametype, it's horrendous to fight against no matter what map or gametype.

AA not being attached to particular maps/gametypes is about the same unfortunate circumstance as the spamming of equipment there were on maps in Halo 3. Makes for poor gameplay.

 

[The Librarian]

Most Halo threads on gaming side make me a sad panda.

Apparently The Storm is a corridor level.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

<3 Duncan.

Apparently The Storm is a corridor level.

They're being unfair to the combat scenario's in it, especially some of the multi-level stuff, but if you were to take an abstract top-down look at it, it's a windy channel/corridor.
But so are almost all Halo levels really.

 

[FyreWulff]

Once again, loadouts really need to be specific to a map and a gametype. I don't understand what's so difficult to implement about this.

Increases the amount of test surfaces exponentially, leading to more things that could go wrong. It's never been done (even Halo 2 only had CTF and CTF Fast for smaller maps) because of that, and thee's also the element of player confusion, just like we're getting with the pistol. Why can't I sprint.. oh, it's Beaver Creek? Does Countdown have Hologram, or is that Reflection? etc etc.

And each time you'd want to add a bugfix or update to a gametype, you'd have to reimplement that fix x N different gametype and map combinations you have.

It's the reason that they had some map exploits last a bit longer than they usually did. There were reported exploits for Sword Base at one point, but they were in the middle of overhauling it's weapon and spawns layout. Instead of stopping the entire process and backporting a fix to the old Sword Base variant, they added the fix to version 5 and just let it ride along with that test/cert cycle for the new variant.


Same with the infamous Valhalla fusion coil. Bungie (for good reasons) only updated the playlists once a month unless it was a dire emergency to maximize time and energy spent on new variants. Since Valhalla had other tweaks done at the same time and the bug was discovered just past the update deployment, the fix for it simply had to wait for the next update deployment, no matter how simple it was, since deploying a mid-month update was reserved for dire situations (you're making the entire playerbase re-download the playlist configuration files..)

Reach DOES have map variance though for certain gametypes, flags have different return times depending on the map in CTF.


It should be noted that it was posted by Jeremiah during Halo 2's run and Shishka during Halo 3's run that both of those games only supported a finite number of map/gametype combinations in matchmaking at once. It's never been mentioned anywhere if Reach has a limitation like that. So there's also that to consider.

 

[TheOddOne]

Apparently The Storm is a corridor level.

The fuck? Sign.

 

[Blue Ninja]

No.

 

[squidhands]

Increases the amount of test surfaces exponentially, leading to more things that could go wrong. It's never been done (even Halo 2 only had CTF and CTF Fast for smaller maps) because of that, and thee's also the element of player confusion, just like we're getting with the pistol. Why can't I sprint.. oh, it's Beaver Creek? Does Countdown have Hologram, or is that Reflection? etc etc.

And each time you'd want to add a bugfix or update to a gametype, you'd have to reimplement that fix x N different gametype and map combinations you have.

It's the reason that they had some map exploits last a bit longer than they usually did. There were reported exploits for Sword Base at one point, but they were in the middle of overhauling it's weapon and spawns layout. Instead of stopping the entire process and backporting a fix to the old Sword Base variant, they added the fix to version 5 and just let it ride along with that test/cert cycle for the new variant.


Same with the infamous Valhalla fusion coil. Bungie (for good reasons) only updated the playlists once a month unless it was a dire emergency to maximize time and energy spent on new variants. Since Valhalla had other tweaks done at the same time and the bug was discovered just past the update deployment, the fix for it simply had to wait for the next update deployment, no matter how simple it was, since deploying a mid-month update was reserved for dire situations (you're making the entire playerbase re-download the playlist configuration files..)

Reach DOES have map variance though for certain gametypes, flags have different return times depending on the map in CTF.


It should be noted that it was posted by Jeremiah during Halo 2's run and Shishka during Halo 3's run that both of those games only supported a finite number of map/gametype combinations in matchmaking at once. It's never been mentioned anywhere if Reach has a limitation like that. So there's also that to consider.

Now that actually makes sense. Just remove it then, like Striker mentioned. Keep it for Elites and the Living Dead playlists, otherwise without a big change to the distance of the roll it's just a terrible AA for Spartans.

edit: and I would by a copy of Asslands if I could get it signed by Dongblain with a personalized note.

 

[Ramirez]

It just proves how polarizing the series is, people argue about the strengths and weaknesses of each game. Whether that's a testament to the ability of Bungie's craft or there inability to please everyone I can't say, we're all biased after all.

Spoiler

Bloom was still a mistake.

Unless you were talking about something else, it seemed most people were actually discussing the game.

First page of the thread.

Halo 3's multiplayer: Spam Assault Rifle and then melee gamble.
Halo 2's multiplayer: Spam Battle Rifle and then melee host advantage.
Halo 1's multiplayer: Spawn with pistol, spam/snipe with pistol. Pistol pistol pistol.

All of them were pretty shitty in hindsight. :/

REALLY?

 

[feel]

Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes what?

:lol :lol

 

[The Librarian]

REALLY?

Is Reach spam with bloom and then armor lock?

 

[BlueScrote]

Increases the amount of test surfaces exponentially, leading to more things that could go wrong. It's never been done (even Halo 2 only had CTF and CTF Fast for smaller maps) because of that, and thee's also the element of player confusion, just like we're getting with the pistol. Why can't I sprint.. oh, it's Beaver Creek? Does Countdown have Hologram, or is that Reflection? etc etc.

And each time you'd want to add a bugfix or update to a gametype, you'd have to reimplement that fix x N different gametype and map combinations you have.

It's the reason that they had some map exploits last a bit longer than they usually did. There were reported exploits for Sword Base at one point, but they were in the middle of overhauling it's weapon and spawns layout. Instead of stopping the entire process and backporting a fix to the old Sword Base variant, they added the fix to version 5 and just let it ride along with that test/cert cycle for the new variant.


Same with the infamous Valhalla fusion coil. Bungie (for good reasons) only updated the playlists once a month unless it was a dire emergency to maximize time and energy spent on new variants. Since Valhalla had other tweaks done at the same time and the bug was discovered just past the update deployment, the fix for it simply had to wait for the next update deployment, no matter how simple it was, since deploying a mid-month update was reserved for dire situations (you're making the entire playerbase re-download the playlist configuration files..)

Reach DOES have map variance though for certain gametypes, flags have different return times depending on the map in CTF.


It should be noted that it was posted by Jeremiah during Halo 2's run and Shishka during Halo 3's run that both of those games only supported a finite number of map/gametype combinations in matchmaking at once. It's never been mentioned anywhere if Reach has a limitation like that. So there's also that to consider.

I may not agree with all of your opinions on Halo gameplay, but it is refreshing to see someone think about the technical ramifications for things people are suggesting for gameplay/gametype changes.

Most Halo threads on gaming side make me a sad panda.

Sometimes I wonder if HaloGAF is just really out of touch with the standard halo player base. I think the regulars here learn towards the more competitive aspect of Halo and that is where the difference comes from, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

 

[The Real Napsta]

Anniversary switching between pistol and dmr starts is horrible.

Zero bloom play lists please.

Stop playing squad and start playing classic. Problem solved.

 

[Spawnling]

I may not agree with all of your opinions on Halo gameplay, but it is refreshing to see someone think about the technical ramifications for things people are suggesting for gameplay/gametype changes.



Sometimes I wonder if HaloGAF is just really out of touch with the standard halo player base. I think the regulars here learn towards the more competitive aspect of Halo and that is where the difference comes from, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

It's exactly how it is. People that post on online forums regularly obviously care more about the competitive aspect of the game simply because they are making their online presence. People that are called "casuals" will most likely pick up the game once a week or so and play if for an hour.

I had a friend play the Anniversary and TU beta playlists with me. He asked, "so what changed?" It's a larger community of people like that where they don't even notice the changes because they are so small. Bungie/343 should take that to note that their "majority" doesn't even know these changes will exists and therefore creating a better competitive community.

 

[Captain Blood]

Is everyone still playing other stuff? I feel like playing some Halo tonight I think.

Sometimes I wonder if HaloGAF is just really out of touch with the standard halo player base. I think the regulars here learn towards the more competitive aspect of Halo and that is where the difference comes from, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

I bet looking at the game history of Gaffers outside of HaloGAF would tell us a lot.

 

[daedalius]

Halo 3's multiplayer: Spam Assault Rifle and then melee gamble.
Halo 2's multiplayer: Spam Battle Rifle and then melee host advantage.
Halo 1's multiplayer: Spawn with pistol, spam/snipe with pistol. Pistol pistol pistol.

All of them were pretty shitty in hindsight. :/

This guy...

should be banned.

How this ever worked for him just tells me he was playing against really, really awful people all the time. Or he is just full of shit.

 

[Plywood]

First page of the thread.

REALLY?

Oh wow, I missed that post.

 

[Slightly Live]

Is everyone still playing other stuff? I feel like playing some Halo tonight I think.

My lv 41 Dark Elf mage could use a rest from dragon slaying.

 

[BlueScrote]

I bet looking at the game history of Gaffers outside of HaloGAF would tell us a lot.

Probably. I think the big question a lot of us are having is what direction Halo 4's sandbox will go in. Reach introduced longer kill times and loadouts which many of the hardcore community (hardcore being people who keep up on halo news, not 'pros') felt reduced the skill gap between players.

Many people do not like alot of the mechanics introduced in Reach. I am probably among the minority in that I don't mind some of the changes (idea of AAs, longer kill times).

 

[heckfu]

My lv 41 Dark Elf mage could use a rest from dragon slaying.

I can probably hope on tonight as well. Last day of my rotation is...currently happening as I'm typing this and I think I've mentally checked out. Ready to play some of that sweet, sweet classic.

 

[Homeboyd]

It's exactly how it is. People that post on online forums regularly obviously care more about the competitive aspect of the game simply because they are making their online presence. People that are called "casuals" will most likely pick up the game once a week or so and play if for an hour.

I had a friend play the Anniversary and TU beta playlists with me. He asked, "so what changed?" It's a larger community of people like that where they don't even notice the changes because they are so small. Bungie/343 should take that to note that their "majority" doesn't even know these changes will exists and therefore creating a better competitive community.

Spawnling! When did you get here?!

 

[Devolution]

Probably. I think the big question a lot of us are having is what direction Halo 4's sandbox will go in. Reach introduced longer kill times and loadouts which many of the hardcore community (hardcore being people who keep up on halo news, not 'pros') felt reduced the skill gap between players.

Many people do not like alot of the mechanics introduced in Reach. I am probably among the minority in that I don't mind some of the changes (idea of AAs, longer kill times).

I think it has to do with perspective. Compared to many FPSs on PCs Halo already had longer kill times. I don't even mind the longer kill times, what kills me is the lack of mobility along with it when sans AAs. Then when AAs do come into play it just seems chaotic, messy and inconsistent.

 

[Ramirez]

Is everyone still playing other stuff? I feel like playing some Halo tonight I think.

You just think you do Blood, playing one game of Reach will remind you why you quit it way before us.

 

[Devolution]

Is everyone still playing other stuff? I feel like playing some Halo tonight I think.

I'll be on that tonight if I'm not in SSF4 getting my ass handed to me by Timedog.

 

[daedalius]

Halonation episode pretty good.

http://www.twitch.tv/halonation/b/301464583

The giant break in mechanics between MLG/ultra-competitive and casual probably turns off a ton of viewers, they just can't identify with what is going on (especially with all those gray maps).

Where something like Starcraft 2, the casual player and the pro are both playing the same game on the same maps, so they can identify with what is going on.

Halo 4 needs to be competitive, with competitive maps, right from the start; hopefully enough that when you watch a pro match, the settings and maps aren't completely different than what you are playing.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I may not agree with all of your opinions on Halo gameplay, but it is refreshing to see someone think about the technical ramifications for things people are suggesting for gameplay/gametype changes.



Sometimes I wonder if HaloGAF is just really out of touch with the standard halo player base. I think the regulars here learn towards the more competitive aspect of Halo and that is where the difference comes from, but sometimes it's hard to tell.

HaloGaf despite what we want to think have always been a small minority when it comes to Halo. We always will be too. For everyone here who likes competitive gameplay there are 100s who just want to get in and shoot shit and have fun doing it. Hell some of us Halogaffers are in the second group even. There is nothing wrong with being in either group too.

I do agree with one thing mentioned in that thing the other day. 343 has to find a balance. The best way I feel is to have certain gametypes right out the gate that are MLG geared. Work with MLG and set up those gametypes to their liking. At the same time go back to creating multiplayer maps separately from campaign. Focus on making the best maps you can for multiplayer. If you do both of those things you would have a game that is funner for everyone because the maps are designed 100 percent with multiplayer in mind and there are then MLG settings right out of the box for the competitive crowd.

 

[Devolution]

HaloGaf despite what we want to think have always been a small minority when it comes to Halo. We always will be too. For everyone here who likes competitive gameplay there are 100s who just want to get in and shoot shit and have fun doing it. Hell some of us Halogaffers are in the second group even. There is nothing wrong with being in either group too.

I do agree with one thing mentioned in that thing the other day. 343 has to find a balance. The best way I feel is to have certain gametypes right out the gate that are MLG geared. Work with MLG and set up those gametypes to their liking. At the same time go back to creating multiplayer maps separately from campaign. Focus on making the best maps you can for multiplayer. If you do both of those things you would have a game that is funner for everyone because the maps are designed 100 percent with multiplayer in mind and there are then MLG settings right out of the box for the competitive crowd.

Honestly if the "plebs" will just accept whatever is thrown at them, in my opinion it's just better to make it ultra competitive and then dumb it down. It's so much harder to do it in reverse, that's where the game has failed since 1. Even if 1 was a fluke every weapon was balanced along with a starting weapon that forced an elevated play style with the power weapons.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Longer kill times are good because they increase the complexity and variety of a given encounter and widen the skill gap (because the first to fire is not so strongly indicative of who will win, as it is in most 'modern' FPS games). But at a certain point they become long enough that someone can break off a given encounter with too much ease or rely too heavily on outside support (i.e. just running away to compensate for poor positioning, or armour locking until friends arrive).

Reach's kill times are long enough that by the time you down someone, the odds are you are going to have to fight someone else, and the shield recharge (which is the silent culprit of a lot of complaints, because it is long, slow, and more significant than ever given the likelihood of your having less than optimum health) fucks you. Having a bloomed-out weapon fucks you. Having a shallow clip (esp. for the pistol) fucks you.

All of these things combine to make stringing together multikills (and sprees) harder than in any other Halo game: even if you execute one opponent flawlessly, you are probably going to be a severe disadvantage for the next one because your weapon is less accurate, your clip isn't deep enough so you're forced into untimely reloads, and the encounter length and shield recharge lengths are always working against you.

This is all particularly frustrating for players who are used to chaining kills and going clutch against multiple opponents in earlier titles. Reach makes it easy for someone to take advantage by being late to other people's fights, and it's why I have played about ten minutes of FFA since the game launched.

 

[Devolution]

Longer kill times are good because they increase the complexity and variety of a given encounter and widen the skill gap (because the first to fire is not so strongly indicative of who will win, as it is in most 'modern' FPS games). But at a certain point they become long enough that someone can break off a given encounter with too much ease or rely too heavily on outside support (i.e. just running away to compensate for poor positioning, or armour locking until friends arrive).

Reach's kill times are long enough that by the time you down someone, the odds are you are going to have to fight someone else, and the shield recharge (which is the silent culprit of a lot of complaints, because it is long, slow, and more significant than ever given the likelihood of your having less than optimum health) fucks you. Having a bloomed-out weapon fucks you. Having a shallow clip (esp. for the pistol) fucks you.

All of these things combine to make stringing together multikills (and sprees) harder than in any other Halo game: even if you execute one opponent flawlessly, you are probably going to be a severe disadvantage for the next one because your weapon is less accurate, your clip isn't deep enough so you're forced into untimely reloads, and the encounter length and shield recharge lengths are always working against you.

This is all particularly frustrating for players who are used to chaining kills and going clutch against multiple opponents in earlier titles. Reach makes it easy for someone to take advantage by being late to other people's fights, and it's why I have played about ten minutes of FFA since the game launched.

This sums it up perfectly.

 

[Tawpgun]

HaloGaf despite what we want to think have always been a small minority when it comes to Halo. We always will be too. For everyone here who likes competitive gameplay there are 100s who just want to get in and shoot shit and have fun doing it. Hell some of us Halogaffers are in the second group even. There is nothing wrong with being in either group too.

I do agree with one thing mentioned in that thing the other day. 343 has to find a balance. The best way I feel is to have certain gametypes right out the gate that are MLG geared. Work with MLG and set up those gametypes to their liking. At the same time go back to creating multiplayer maps separately from campaign. Focus on making the best maps you can for multiplayer. If you do both of those things you would have a game that is funner for everyone because the maps are designed 100 percent with multiplayer in mind and there are then MLG settings right out of the box for the competitive crowd.

My philosophy has always been (and this is just what I think, I have no idea about how hard all this is) is that if first build the base game for a competitive level, you can add fluff and shenanigans too it to support the LOL LETS SHOOT THINGS players. They don't care how competetive or not the game is. We do.

So, if 343 builds the base Halo 4 game to be as competitive as say Halo 2 was. All skill, no luck, fast, good balance with a limited sandbox.

Awesome, we're satisfied.

Then add the rest in accordingly while keeping it as balanced as possible. Vehicles, more weapons, maybe even whatever is going to replace AA's and Equipement.

 

[Devolution]

My philosophy has always been (and this is just what I think, I have no idea about how hard all this is) is that if first build the base game for a competitive level, you can add fluff and shenanigans too it to support the LOL LETS SHOOT THINGS players. They don't care how competetive or not the game is. We do.

So, if 343 builds the base Halo 4 game to be as competitive as say Halo 2 was. All skill, no luck, fast, good balance with a limited sandbox.

Awesome, we're satisfied.

Then add the rest in accordingly while keeping it as balanced as possible. Vehicles, more weapons, maybe even whatever is going to replace AA's and Equipement.

Halo 2 was only competitive after MLG got its hands on it. No offense but when you guys say halo 2, you guys should really qualify it. SMG sucked. SMG starts sucked. And that's how Halo 2 started.

 

[Captain Blood]

You just think you do Blood, playing one game of Reach will remind you why you quit it way before us.

Halo 3 then? I am sure that is still playlist hell but at least we have nostalgia on our side over there haha.

 

[BlueScrote]

Honestly if the "plebs" will just accept whatever is thrown at them, in my opinion it's just better to make it ultra competitive and then dumb it down. It's so much harder to do it in reverse, that's where the game has failed since 1. Even if 1 was a fluke every weapon was balanced along with a starting weapon that forced an elevated play style with the power weapons.

I agree with this also. If you make it competitive but with a small barrier to entry the casual fanbase will have fun. It's when you have a competitive sandbox that it takes a significant ramp up time to start having fun where it is a problem.

The Gears series has always had this issue for me, up until Gears 3. "With the one death and wait" formula, it is incredibly difficult to get up to speed on particular mechanics through playtime. Gears 3 with the TDM mode finally allowed me to grasp some of the gameplay nuances and start enjoying Multiplayer.

 

[Devolution]

Halo 3 then? I am sure that is still playlist hell but at least we have nostalgia on our side over there haha.

Fuck that. Play some anni.

 

[Tawpgun]

Halo 2 was only competitive after MLG got its hands on it. No offense but when you guys say halo 2, you guys should really qualify it. SMG sucked. SMG starts sucked. And that's how Halo 2 started.

I was referring to BR starts, Team Hardcore, etc.

 

[Devolution]

I was referring to BR starts, Team Hardcore, etc.

Yeah which wasn't even a thing until the competitive masses kept harping on it to change. Those weren't in your base h2 multiplayer. It took MONTHS to get BR starts in something other than BTB. Same in Halo 3.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

What if there was a spectator mode in Halo 4? I think that would be pretty great for live events like MLG.

For now, I wonder if they could somehow use Reach's forthcoming ATLAS - an overhead map would be pretty cool to see on the MLG stream.

(I still think ATLAS 2.0 in Halo 4 could be the way to bridge the gap between casual play and old-school competitive Halo. Especially if it helps with weapon timers. More on that later, I think I might make an article of it.)

 

[Shake Appeal]

People quickly forget that before Reach launched they were celebrating all the ways Reach was going to improve on the numerous things they hated about Halo 3.

None of these games have been perfect; all of them have been huge fun.

 

[op_ivy]

anyone experiencing odd matchmaking issues?

why am i constantly getting the "you have left too many games" warning when i havent left any? why, when i try to play anniv classic, am i booted back to the search for game lobby every single time after a map vote and the loading is finished?

its been windy as hell the past few days and i even lost my internet connection yesterday morning, so i'd imagine this is likely related to that?

 

[Devolution]

People quickly forget that before Reach launched they were celebrating all the ways Reach was going to improve on the numerous things they hated about Halo 3.

None of these games have been perfect; all of them have been huge fun.

None perfect but it was evident in 3 that they hadn't learned from 2. And Reach is just I don't even know.

 

[Blue Ninja]

As for Halo 4 not appearing in the VGA's: I'm thinking Game Informer might have a cover story pretty soon-ish. Maybe that'll be our first view.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

None perfect but it was evident in 3 that they hadn't learned from 2.

Can you clarify what you mean here?
Because you seem so wrong to me.

 

[Tha Robbertster]

As for Halo 4 not appearing in the VGA's: I'm thinking Game Informer might have a cover story pretty soon-ish. Maybe that'll be our first view.

We had Reach in January didn't we? When is the soon-ish cover story?