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Halo: Reach |OT7| What are They to Say Now?

RL-Friends abandoned Halo since they are too mature for it. Yeah. I know, you friend as a better reason to leave this game beyond.

Yep. I bought the Guilty Spark Avatar t-shirt, you can give it away for free now.
avatar-body.png

I've been trying to get that helmet forever...if only my gamestop would have let me preorder. The clerk wouldn't even get his manager to help him figure out how to preorder it. He just told me he couldn't figure it out.
 
Warning: long read. This feedback is only for the Anniversary BTB (ABTB) playlist. Nothing else.

To make things simpler and easier to get my points across, each solution to the noted problems below will be recommended as if they will be implemented on their own and not in conjunction with any of my other recommendations.

Problem 1: Too many gametypes and map variants are crowding the playlist.
There are a lot of gametypes and map variants in the ABTB playlist. So much in fact that it's easy to get confused and keep in mind the weapon spawns and settings for every pairing. Furthermore, the more you crowd a playlist with different gametypes and maps, the less each one will be played by a majority of players. Here are the gametypes in the playlist:
  • Big Team Slayer
  • Anv. BTB Slayer
  • BTB Snipers
  • Elite Slayer
  • 1 Flag CTF
  • 1 Bomb Assault
  • Territories
  • Team Crazy King
  • Assault
  • Multiflag CTF
  • Stockpile
  • Neutral Bomb
And that's not even including the TU/Anniversary version of each gametype (if applicable), paired with Breakneck/Headlong, and Ridgeline/Timberland, respectively.

Furthermore, I think the idea of ABTB is fundamentally...skewed. If you accept the idea of "Anniversary" to mean Halo 1 settings, then ABTB can't fit comfortably under that category. Half of the playlist relies on a Halo 2 map; a map not designed for Halo 1's sandbox. Yet the playlist always features ABTB Slayer with Headlong, even though the pairing doesn't make sense.

Speaking of ABTB only, I think 343's efforts to provide a CE-like experience, while I'm sure is appreciated, is ultimately too limited for continued support. The defining aspect of CE's MP sandbox was the 3SK pistol, yes, but that wasn't the entire sandbox.

The presence of Breakneck and 343's limited ability to replicate the Halo 1 experience in the ABTB playlist will drive most of my recommendations.

Slayer is too heavily weighted.

Solution 1A: Remove the "Anniversary" aspect from ABTB. Take out all Anniversary gametypes and maps. This will greatly reduce the number of gametypes and lead to less confusion among the general population. People will play more of every gametype.

Solution 1B: Leave in the Anniversary gametypes but have them only paired with Anniversary Timberland. Anniversary Headlong can remain in the playlist so long as the map is only paired with TU settings. The drawbacks of this solution is that it does not reduce the number of gametypes and maps as much as 1A.

Solution 1C: Remove, or greatly reduce the weighting of, BTB Snipers and Team Crazy King. Neither fit too well as an ABTB gametype, and this can be paired with 1A or 1B to be make both solutions more effective. Why not Elite Slayer? That sticky achievement.

Solution 1D: Remove, or greatly reduce the weighting of, High Noon. The stars of this playlist are Ridgeline and Breakneck. We don't need a medium-large map crowding the playlist.

Solution 1E: Decrease the weight of Slayer gametypes.

Problem 2: Weapon placements and weapons spawns, vehicle placements, and vehicle spawns, are quite poor and are thus hampering the experience.
The majority of these problems have to deal with Ridgeline/Timberland, but Headlong/Breakneck has its (albeit relatively small) issues.

Let's begin with Timberland because the distinguishing feature of ABTB is its Anniversary aspect. Look, I've never played on Timberland nor know what the original weapon spawns were, but Anniversary Timberland has too many power weapons for Reach's gameplay. The map has two fuel-rod guns, two rockets, an overshield, two camouflages, four snipers, and four shotguns. It's not uncommon to see people running around with two power weapons. The placement of the weapons only serve to heighten and compound the frustration. Shotguns are placed next to the camouflage for both teams (I don't think I need to elaborate here). The snipers for both teams are placed on a hill and in the second floors of the bases; all four places are great sniping spots. You don't spawn a weapon in its most effective location; players should have to earn that. On the subject of vehicles, the rocket Warthog is a pointless and semi-ineffective addition. All the rocket Warthog does is make a lot of noise.

The weapon spawns for the power weapons, and this is true for every map I think, are too short. They spawn way too fast. Because of the way the spawn system works, all you have to do is abandon the power weapon by time you're finished using it and it'll spawn immediately.

Ridgeline shares much of the same problems as Anniversary Timberland. The map has two snipers, two rockets, two shotguns, two pro-pipes, and a laser. I can't remember if a rocket Warthog spawns on the map, but if it does, same problems apply.

I haven't noticed any huge problems with weapon placements on Headlong, but Havok has noticed some:
Havok said:
Things like there being two snipers that are both in practice more easily accessible to blue team - one spawns in the window near the mancannon landing, the other in the old invis hall. Previously the two teams had their own, a beam rifle on one side and a human sniper on the other. Sword spawn was changed to being on the girder, which means nobody really goes after it. Red team rockets now spawn at the top of the rear hallway lift behind Red Base, so you never have to go into the open to have rockets camp the flag. I'm not even sure why the Plasma Launcher exists on that map. It doesn't really serve a purpose. Some of the changes are okay, but there's kind of an encouragement to camp at the mancannon landing and in the red base.
Everyone, however, knows Headlong and Breakneck's biggest problems are in the vehicles. The Banshee, specifically. It is too overpowered and many times a deciding factor in the outcome of a game. The Gauss Hog can become dominating, but nowhere near the extent of the Banshee.​

Solution 2A: I know the point of Anniversary Timberland is to replicate the original experience as closely as possible with identical weapon placements, but it's not working as is, and so it needs changing. You know those two structures on either side in the middle where the rockets spawn on Ridgeline? Timberland only has one of these structures. Put a duplicate structure on the other side and place the shotgun spawns in there. Remove the two rockets and one of the fuel-rod guns and place a single fuel-rod gun in the center. Place a sniper, with reduced extra ammunition down to four bullets, on either the first floor of each base or back where the fuel-rod guns spawn on the map in the current matchmaking version. Eliminate the other two snipers. Alternatively, you can place the a sniper in each structure in the middle and put the shotguns back where the fuel-rod guns currently spawn. Remove the overshield in the middle and instead give one base an invisibility and one base an overshield; place either one in one of the current invisibility power-up spawns.

Solution 2B: Tweak the weapon placements of Ridgeline. IIRC, Ridgeline has two pro-pipes and no overshield/invisibility power-up. I'm fine with how fast the pro-pipes spawn and the amount of ammo they have, but I think I'm letting my own bias get in the way of providing objective feedback here. Shotguns (or snipers) spawn in the middle bases, snipers (or shotguns) either in the first floor of the base or down where the fuel-rod guns currently spawn, and rockets in the center.

Solution 2C: Remove the Banshee from Anniversary Headlong and Breackneck. I'm hesitant to recommend the removal of the Gauss Hog because while it can become a problem, it never gets too bad.

Solution 2D: Remove the rocket Warthog on whatever maps it appears on and replace it with a turret Warthog.

Solution 2E: Increase spawn times for all power weapons on every map.

Solution 2F: Remove snipers from Anniversary Timberland and Ridgeline completely. I think the DMR's 3x zoom is more than enough for the maps.

Solution 2G: Replace Breakneck's weapon placements with Headlong's with the exception of the pro-pipe – keep the spare ammunition at 7 grenades.

Problem 3: Certain armor abilities and spawns are detrimental to gametypes and maps.
I'll be honest at the start here. I do not like armor abilities. Save for hologram, I cannot name a single armor ability I like. However, given the unlikelihood of their complete removal, I'll limit criticism to two in particular: evade and jetpack.

Evade, as has been discussed so many times before, isn't suited for objective gametypes and is annoying to fight against because of its range of maneuverability (you can evade in any direction).

Jetpack is a problem on both maps because it can bypass otherwise impassable areas, but it is most annoying on Headlong/Breakneck. Often times I have trouble getting my footing or figuring out where I'm being shot from because of people in jetpacks.

Camouflage has been known to cause some problems, mainly with the mancannon.

I only have trouble with spawns for one specific map and gametype, and that's BTB Slayer on Ridgeline. For whatever reason this doesn't apply to ABTB Slayer on Anniversary Timberland. In BTB Slayer on Ridgeline, players from both teams can spawn at either base beyond the initial spawn, eliminating the red base and the blue base and creating, in effect, two purple bases. This allows either team to spawn behind the other. I don't think I need to explain why that's a problem. The same situation exists on Highlands and that has yet to be fixed (same with Tempest too, I believe).​

Solution 3A: Remove all armor abilities from every gametype. Increase base player speed and jump height.

Solution 3B: Remove jetpack, camo, and evade from every gametype.

Solution 3C: Remove evade from every gametype, but only remove jetpack and camo from gametypes paired with Headlong/Ridgeline.

Solution 3D: Adjust the spawns so the teams spawn only at their respective bases.

Those are my ideas. Hope everyone finds them somewhat reasonable. I hope I wasn't confusing.

Edit: If anyone has more suggestions for this list, feel free to say so! Or if you disagree, tell me why.
 
I think 343 has done a fantastic job with the playlists. People are flocking back to Team Slayer to play proper settings, yes, even despite Armor Lock.
 

Havok

Member
Good points - the playlist is weird and enumerating problems with it is kind of difficult.

The thing about Timberland and Ridgeline is that this is one of the rare instances where a Beaver Creek style better-in-every-way remake is created. Timberland is flat out bad by comparison, with so little cover on the map and the side effect of scaling the map down is that the power weapon abundance really becomes an issue. Axe the old, in with the new. As for deleting the sniper rifles entirely, I don't agree. The sightlines on Ridgeline are such that the sniper is usually confined to small areas of the map and is forced into a support role, which is a great thing that is very difficult to do with Reach's idiot-proof sniper. If anything for that map, axe the laser (not that it's particularly bad here, just that it doesn't have a purpose and nobody fights over it). Nothing else really pops out as being offensive or unnecessary. I've found myself having a lot of problems with Timberland, and I just think it's the inferior version by a long shot.

I still love Headlong's weapon placement, but at the same time, I like Breakneck's updated geometry - that back hallway is incredibly useful without breaking anything. Unfortunately, those improvements to the map are tied to Breakneck's bad weapon placement and additions, including rampant armor ability abuse. Getting jumped by a jetpack guy half a mile in the air is never fun, and breaks the basic flow of the map, which involved set routes to higher ground, and the fighting involved with those routes. On vehicle balance, the strangest thing about having those two powerhouse vehicles in the Gauss and Banshee on Headlong is that they sort of balance each other out, with one acting as a hard counter to the other (it's not ideal, but it seems to work). However, Breakneck's counter to the Banshee is just the Sniper, which isn't really acceptable, just tying back into its placement issues. You're right that armor abilities break that map. Strangely enough, Evade is for once not the biggest offender (lets be real though, shit still sucks). Jetpack and Camo should be first up on the chopping block for that map (you didn't mention Camo, so I assume that you haven't been mancannon camo'ed yet).

Anniversary settings in BTB are crap. Getting jumped by a bunch of guys, killed in a microsecond, running out of pistol ammo immediately because you start with about half a bullet and a penny in your pocket, and having to deal with the increased gravity (in Headlong's case, breaking a bunch of jumps) is not a fun experience. It's probably most apparent how shitty the experience (from the gametype rather than the map) is on Hang 'em High, where you are randomly killed without warning more often than not. I'd love to see a paring down of armor abilities in the TU gametypes and just have them be the default, appearing on both the classic and updated variants. That 85% DMR works spectacularly in a BTB setting, limited in its range while not feeling like a dice roll close up. I feel that it's safe to say that's never going to happen, though. The issue of certain improvements being tied to things that are less than great is a problem across the post-TU game. I don't know that I have a solution, other than to stop trying to please everyone. They've made a great BTB gametype in the 85% DMR start variant, now tweak it to remove the offensive parts and just ship it. Those Anniversary settings just don't seem to work that well with 16 players and weren't implemented particularly great in the first place.

The playlist as a whole suffers from gametype bloat and bad weighting. Getting Headlong Flag and Bomb is like finding a pot of gold buried in a sea of unicorns in the Bermuda Triangle using only a dowsing rod. I don't care whether or not the sticky achievement is in there, Elite Slayer needs to go or be rare. People don't play BTB for Slayer, do they? Why is Slayer weighted so high, then? Headlong and Timberland (I cannot express the level at which I hate Hang 'em High BTB objective gametypes, so I'm excluding it) are built very specifically for asymmetric and symmetric objectives, respectively. Why shove something that isn't good (King on Breakneck) in just to pad the list?

I dunno. Its a weird playlist. Still probably my favorite of the Anniversary offerings. This post will probably be stealth edited a hundred times over the course of the next hour.
 
As for deleting the sniper rifles entirely, I don't agree. The sightlines on Ridgeline are such that the sniper is usually confined to small areas of the map and is forced into a support role, which is a great thing that is very difficult to do with Reach's idiot-proof sniper.
That one was more of a long-shot suggestion, like the complete removal of armor abilities. Just an option that should be considered, if unlikely.
I like Breakneck's updated geometry - that back hallway is incredibly useful without breaking anything. Unfortunately, those improvements to the map are tied to Breakneck's bad weapon placement and additions, including rampant armor ability abuse.
I like Breakneck's new geometry too, especially the mancannon. I didn't mention weapon placement on Breakneck because I thought it was exactly the same as Headlong's from what I can remember. What's different about it?
On vehicle balance, the strangest thing about having those two powerhouse vehicles in the Gauss and Banshee on Headlong is that they sort of balance each other out, with one acting as a hard counter to the other (it's not ideal, but it seems to work). However, Breakneck's counter to the Banshee is just the Sniper, which isn't really acceptable, just tying back into its placement issues.
Blurring the lines between the two maps maybe, but I can swear the Banshee readily dominates both maps. Initially it may be balanced, but should the Banshee gain the upperhand at any moment, things get bad very quickly.
(you didn't mention Camo, so I assume that you haven't been mancannon camo'ed yet).
Nah I haven't. Eesh.
Getting Headlong Flag and Bomb is like finding a pot of gold buried in a sea of unicorns in the Bermuda Triangle using only a dowsing rod. I don't care whether or not the sticky achievement is in there, Elite Slayer needs to go or be rare. People don't play BTB for Slayer, do they?
Not disagreeing or anything but just to shine a spotlight on the whole issue, the numerous maps and gametypes aren't helping someone find Flag and Bomb on Headlong/Breakneck.
Why is Slayer weighted so high, then?
This is an issue I forgot to mention. Slayer is weighted too heavily in the playlist.
 

Havok

Member
I like Breakneck's new geometry too, especially the mancannon. I didn't mention weapon placement on Breakneck because I thought it was exactly the same as Headlong's from what I can remember. What's different about it?
Things like there being two snipers that are both in practice more easily accessible to blue team - one spawns in the window near the mancannon landing, the other in the old invis hall. Previously the two teams had their own, a beam rifle on one side and a human sniper on the other. Sword spawn was changed to being on the girder, which means nobody really goes after it. Red team rockets now spawn at the top of the rear hallway lift behind Red Base, so you never have to go into the open to have rockets camp the flag. I'm not even sure why the Plasma Launcher exists on that map. It doesn't really serve a purpose. Some of the changes are okay, but there's kind of an encouragement to camp at the mancannon landing and in the red base.

Then there's vehicle stuff like the totally stupid Banshee rush that happens at the beginning of each map, which involves two people in a standoff to see which of them is going to get into the Banshee and which is going to board them immediately afterwards. That is exactly as silly as it sounds. Also, yeah, the Banshee totally sucks no matter what half-justifications I can make with it with the Gauss Hog counter argument. I was mostly just trying to define which of the variants was worse in that regard.

It's hard to get outraged about very much of Breakneck. I don't hate it or anything, I'm just not in love with a lot of the things it tries to do.
 

daedalius

Member
Banshee is the worst thing to happen to Breakneck, followed closely by jetpack.

Put a gauss hog on breakneck to deal with that POS; its a lot easier to kill a hog of any strike than the flying scorpion.
 
I can understand the mix of Classic and TU gametypes/maps currently in ABTB, I just hope the long-term plan is:

- Delete all of the vanilla/TU gametypes and maps from ABTB. (Making the ABTB list Classic only).
- Make the normal Reach BTB playlist DLC required.

If people want to play BTB with armor abilities they should have already bought Reach anyways.
 
Things like there being two snipers that are both in practice more easily accessible to blue team - one spawns in the window near the mancannon landing, the other in the old invis hall. Previously the two teams had their own, a beam rifle on one side and a human sniper on the other. Sword spawn was changed to being on the girder, which means nobody really goes after it. Red team rockets now spawn at the top of the rear hallway lift behind Red Base, so you never have to go into the open to have rockets camp the flag. I'm not even sure why the Plasma Launcher exists on that map. It doesn't really serve a purpose. Some of the changes are okay, but there's kind of an encouragement to camp at the mancannon landing and in the red base.

I'll add this to the list.

I can understand the mix of Classic and TU gametypes/maps currently in ABTB, I just hope the long-term plan is:

- Delete all of the vanilla/TU gametypes and maps from ABTB. (Making the ABTB list Classic only).
- Make the normal Reach BTB playlist DLC required.

If people want to play BTB with armor abilities they should have already bought Reach anyways.
I understand the mix too, but it's detrimental to the playlist and really doesn't make sense because half of it relies on a Halo 2 map remake.

I was going to add an addendum at the end of my post. I would like to see a DLC-only BTB playlist because the shipping maps aren't good (or at least, give the shipping maps very low weighting). This would, of course, require people to buy the DLC, but because of MS's current policy towards DLC, I don't see this as likely.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Anniversary BTB should be deleted and normal Big Team Battle should become all DLC required, and remain vanilla Reach. I don't know why we have two BTB lists, didn't anyone remember that the 3 population couldn't support Big Team Battle and Mythic BTB at the same time?

On the other hand, if the existence of Anniversary BTB prevents normal BTB from being shat up with the TU, then it can stay there.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Anniversary BTB should be deleted and normal Big Team Battle should become all DLC required, and remain vanilla Reach. I don't know why we have two BTB lists, didn't anyone remember that the 3 population couldn't support Big Team Battle and Mythic BTB at the same time?

On the other hand, if the existence of Anniversary BTB prevents normal BTB from being shat up with the TU, then it can stay there.

Headlong with Jetpacks?

no thanks.

Anni BTB is superior BTB.
 

lybertyboy

Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Anniversary BTB should be deleted and normal Big Team Battle should become all DLC required, and remain vanilla Reach. I don't know why we have two BTB lists, didn't anyone remember that the 3 population couldn't support Big Team Battle and Mythic BTB at the same time?

In that scenario users who bought Halo: Anniversary, but don't own Halo: Reach would no longer have access to a BTB playlist. The shipping maps are required in base playlists so adding regular Reach playlists to Anniversary disc players is a no-go.
 
I think 343 has done a fantastic job with the playlists. People are flocking back to Team Slayer to play proper settings, yes, even despite Armor Lock.

They need to impliment actual anniv. settings in another playlist which isnt dlc required. Locking the 3sk Pistol to people who brought the map pack seems a bit cheap. TS might have a higher population but how much of that is down to the fact that the middle ground between the anniv playlist which is dlc required is pretty bad. Anniv playlist is always going to suffer because of the dlc restrictions.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Headlong with Jetpacks?

no thanks.

Anni BTB is superior BTB.

Jetpacks are in Anniversary BTB anyway. I don't ever remember actually getting Headlong, just Breakneck. Jetpack should be deleted from Objective anyway, which is the only gametypes Headlong/Breakneck should have.


In that scenario users who bought Halo: Anniversary, but don't own Halo: Reach would no longer have access to a BTB playlist. The shipping maps are required in base playlists so adding regular Reach playlists to Anniversary disc players is a no-go.

I guess that answers my earlier question of if the Reach disc maps can be made optional for any list. I guess not. Carry on with the dual BTB lists then. I guess that also means you can't put Blood Gulch into Anniversary BTB either.

Can you answer if 85% bloom and bleedthrough can be separate levers for a gametype, or does a gametype having adjusted bloom automatically mean it uses bleedthrough?


They need to impliment actual anniv. settings in another playlist which isnt dlc required. Locking the 3sk Pistol to people who brought the map pack seems a bit cheap. TS might have a higher population but how much of that is down to the fact that the middle ground between the anniv playlist which is dlc required is pretty bad. Anniv playlist is always going to suffer because of the dlc restrictions.

I mentioned this before. The actual new gametypes since the 343/MS takeover have all been locked to paid DLC. When Bungie was running the show, we got new gametypes (as in actually new gametypes, not weapon adjustments) that didn't require owning the DLC maps to play in matchmaking. I know we can download them without playing the playlist, but it's still kind of trademark Microsoft. This is the company that's still charging 10$ for 3 gametypes in Halo Wars. I'm hoping we see some actual new Megalo gametypes from them soon.
 
In that scenario users who bought Halo: Anniversary, but don't own Halo: Reach would no longer have access to a BTB playlist. The shipping maps are required in base playlists so adding regular Reach playlists to Anniversary disc players is a no-go.

Heres hoping Halo 4 has a better DLC system. Halo 3 and Reach were all sorts of ehh. That said, I like the approach of requiring DLC in some playlists after time, although I know its not ideal.
 

lybertyboy

Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Heres hoping Halo 4 has a better DLC system. Halo 3 and Reach were all sorts of ehh. That said, I like the approach of requiring DLC in some playlists after time, although I know its not ideal.

I think we can all agree that the ideal is a more efficient algorithm for matching DLC owners with one another, and that's something we will continue to work towords for the future. Whether in Halo: Reach or future titles.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I think we can all agree that the ideal is a more efficient algorithm for matching DLC owners with one another, and that's something we will continue to work towords for the future. Whether in Halo: Reach or future titles.

I'm guessing you are about to get some alternate views on what the ideal DLC arrangement is, but yes, that would also be good. :p
 
In that scenario users who bought Halo: Anniversary, but don't own Halo: Reach would no longer have access to a BTB playlist. The shipping maps are required in base playlists so adding regular Reach playlists to Anniversary disc players is a no-go.

Yeah. I just realized that and I gave my code away. Going to have a hard time getting those Defiant achievements.
 
I think we can all agree that the ideal is a more efficient algorithm for matching DLC owners with one another, and that's something we will continue to work towords for the future. Whether in Halo: Reach or future titles.

True. I imagine things such as a "match me with DLC owners first" has been discussed. Its too bad it didn't make the cut for Reach, but if it makes it for 4 I will be happy. Also, I have noticed a slight increase of DLC maps in normal MM, but not by much. Not sure if thats coincidence or not.

One way or another, DLC owners should be able to more easily enjoy the maps in standard playlists. That said, it shouldn't break the game for others.
 

FyreWulff

Member
I'm guessing you are about to get some alternate views on what the ideal DLC arrangement is, but yes, that would also be good. :p

obligatory Fable 2 model post.


Also:

We need some test films for the Community Cartographer Living Dead maps being considered for matchmaking.

If anyone would like to assist in recording some films, which we REALLY need, send me a text message to gamertag "FyreWulff" and I will invite you at 7pm CST, which is two hours from this post.

All I need you to do is at least stay until the end of the game if you have to run, but it shouldn't take long. All DLC ownership would be great since we have Anchor 9, Condemned, and Annviversary variants to put through their paces.

I know the vast majority of people playing Living Dead probably don't post on any forums, but I'd like to make sure we don't miss some sort of hilarious bug in one of these maps. Thank you.
 

feel

Member
I think we can all agree that the ideal is a more efficient algorithm for matching DLC owners with one another, and that's something we will continue to work towords for the future. Whether in Halo: Reach or future titles.
Nice to read. I hope I get Beaver Creek regularly on MLG playlist after they toss Anni maps in.






edit:
V yeah this, I don't want it to come up more often than the base ones either
 

Kuroyume

Banned
Is there a somewhere where I can read up on the what is Anniversary. As far as I know there's Vanilla Reach TU, Zero Bloom, Classic, Anniversary Classic which is basically just the pistol (?) and no armor abilities, and then there's Anniversary which has the pistol and armor abilities? Classic has bloom? Is that right? This is very confusing.
 
I'm guessing you are about to get some alternate views on what the ideal DLC arrangement is, but yes, that would also be good. :p

The ideal is that everyone has an HDD, the maps are free, there are DLC matching algorithms, and DLC-required lists. Maybe even make it so you have to download the new maps to play online.

What if you had to download the maps (for free) to play online, but you couldn't freely access them until you pay for them? They'd show up in matchmaking when you're matched with someone who has paid for them, and you can play on them in that specific situation, but your features with them otherwise are bare-bones; you don't get saved films, forge, custom games, et cetera. This would essentially reverse the current situation. Presently, if one player doesn't have the maps, nobody plays on them. But in this revised system, if just one player purchased the maps, everyone could play on them. Players who wouldn't have otherwise purchased them might be compelled to after actually playing on them.

Is there a somewhere where I can read up on the what is Anniversary. As far as I know there's Vanilla Reach TU, Zero Bloom, Classic, Anniversary Classic which is basically just the pistol (?) and no armor abilities, and then there's Anniversary which has the pistol and armor abilities? Classic has bloom? Is that right? This is very confusing.
Imagine how it is to the average player in matchmaking.
 
Is there a somewhere where I can read up on the what is Anniversary. As far as I know there's Vanilla Reach TU, Zero Bloom, Classic, Anniversary Classic which is basically just the pistol (?) and no armor abilities, and then there's Anniversary which has the pistol and armor abilities? Classic has bloom? Is that right? This is very confusing.
Vanilla: Regular Reach

TU: 85% Bloom, Bleedthrough, Armor Lock and Camo Nerf. Available outside of Anniversary playlists in Squad Slayer, Objective and Multi-Team.

ZB Slayer: Same as TU settings but with no bloom instead of 85%. Available only in Beta playlist.

Anniversary: 3SK Pistol, no AAs, faster movement speed, jump height unchanged but gravity increased (feels hella weird) and Anniversary map variants (Teleporters at the back of Beaver Creek, no extra hallways or lifts, etc.). Anniversary Classic playlist exclusively serves up these gametypes.

And then you have the new MLG gametype which comes in Sprint or no Sprint variants. It's all a bit ridiculous.
 

FyreWulff

Member
The ideal is that everyone has an HDD, the maps are free, there are DLC matching algorithms, and DLC-required lists. Maybe even make it so you have to download the new maps to play online.

What if you had to download the maps (for free) to play online, but you couldn't freely access them until you pay for them? They'd show up in matchmaking when you're matched with someone who has paid for them, and you can play on them in that specific situation, but your features with them otherwise are bare-bones; you don't get saved films, forge, custom games, et cetera. This would essentially reverse the current situation. Presently, if one player doesn't have the maps, nobody plays on them. But in this revised system, if just one player purchased the maps, everyone could play on them. Players who wouldn't have otherwise purchased them might be compelled to after actually playing on them.

That's pretty much the Fable 2 model exactly.

Paid version: can unlock achievements, trade items from the DLC

Free version: can follow paid users into DLC areas but act as a ghost and cannot affect anything, but still receive DLC items and interact with paid owners

It did a stellar job of preventing the userbase from splitting.
 
I think we can all agree that the ideal is a more efficient algorithm for matching DLC owners with one another, and that's something we will continue to work towords for the future. Whether in Halo: Reach or future titles.

Yes, yes we can.

The ideal is that everyone has an HDD, the maps are free, there are DLC matching algorithms, and DLC-required lists. Maybe even make it so you have to download the new maps to play online.

What if you had to download the maps (for free) to play online, but you couldn't freely access them until you pay for them? They'd show up in matchmaking when you're matched with someone who has paid for them, and you can play on them in that specific situation, but your features with them otherwise are bare-bones; you don't get saved films, forge, custom games, et cetera. This would essentially reverse the current situation. Presently, if one player doesn't have the maps, nobody plays on them. But in this revised system, if just one player purchased the maps, everyone could play on them. Players who wouldn't have otherwise purchased them might be compelled to after actually playing on them.

If everyone had an HDD, and the maps were free, I don't see any reason for matching algorithms and dlc required lists. DLC should be required to enter matchmaking in that case.

David is right though, I don't see a single reason why a much better DLC matching algorithm isn't the best solution to DLC. Games like COD do it, and it works perfectly.
 
I mentioned this before. The actual new gametypes since the 343/MS takeover have all been locked to paid DLC. When Bungie was running the show, we got new gametypes (as in actually new gametypes, not weapon adjustments) that didn't require owning the DLC maps to play in matchmaking. I know we can download them without playing the playlist, but it's still kind of trademark Microsoft. This is the company that's still charging 10$ for 3 gametypes in Halo Wars. I'm hoping we see some actual new Megalo gametypes from them soon.

Kinda agree, im sceptical of how much 'goodwill' will be thrown our way, for sure it will never return to the older days where we would get free maps as a one off. With Halo 4 343 might put out free gametypes but to be honest with Reach they probably haven't dedicated the resources to working on Megalo, im guessing except for the one person who worked on the TU the dev's are all on other projects. So im hoping we will see a return to that kind of stuff after H4 releases.

But yeah, the fact that they essentially tied the 3sk Pistol to the new maps is kind of shocking. Perhaps there's a technical reason for this?

From what I understand that pistol/ anniv settings aren't in another playlist? If it is I apologise for being wrong.

In my opinion the anniv. settings work well, but the other settings are essentially broken, and if im right in thinking those settings are only available on the new maps then that would be kind of cheeky, I assume there is no technical reason because surely you can play the 'anniv' settings on other maps in custom games?

I would rather take slightly better gameplay and a broken feedback loop, than have a great feedback loop with gameplay I dont enjoy, but of course thats subjective.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Yes, yes we can.



If everyone had an HDD, and the maps were free, I don't see any reason for matching algorithms and dlc required lists. DLC should be required to enter matchmaking in that case.

David is right though, I don't see a single reason why a much better DLC matching algorithm isn't the best solution to DLC. Games like COD do it, and it works perfectly.

The way CoD does it essentially creates a duplicate "virtual" copy of each playlist. But they also have the population to support doing that.

In Halo's case, if the algorithm is cranked all the way up to 'match dlc owners first' then you basically end up creating a virtual second copy of the list, and you don't know how many people are in that section of it. At that point you might as well make the playlist DLC required so that you know the population reflects the true DLC owner count and search times stay fast for DLC owners

Kinda agree, im sceptical of how much 'goodwill' will be thrown our way, for sure it will never return to the older days where we would get free maps as a one off. With Halo 4 343 might put out free gametypes but to be honest with Reach they probably haven't dedicated the resources to working on Megalo, im guessing except for the one person who worked on the TU the dev's are all on other projects. So im hoping we will see a return to that kind of stuff after H4 releases.

But yeah, the fact that they essentially tied the 3sk Pistol to the new maps is kind of shocking. Perhaps there's a technical reason for this?

From what I understand that pistol/ anniv settings aren't in another playlist? If it is I apologise for being wrong.

As far as I know, there shouldn't be. 3SK pistol works on the Defiant and Noble maps and the disc maps, because the TU patches all the .maps in RAM, which is why Reach 1.0 cannot play with 1.1 on LAN. It's kinda funny though because the low grav section on Anchor 9 totally breaks in the gametype, you fall too fast to actually be able to jump up to the rockets
 

GhaleonEB

Member
That's pretty much the Fable 2 model exactly.

Paid version: can unlock achievements, trade items from the DLC

Free version: can follow paid users into DLC areas but act as a ghost and cannot affect anything, but still receive DLC items and interact with paid owners

It did a stellar job of preventing the userbase from splitting.

Crackdown also featured a similar DLC model. The paid DLC was actually included as part of the free bucket of content (Keys to the City), so that you could play in the same game as a co-op partner who had the DLC. If that player was host, you could play with the new content.

In your own game? Nope, you had to buy it for that. But it let friends continue to play together, rather than dividing them. Not sure if the sequel had the same model.

I think that would a disincentive for some, perhaps many, purchases, since a lot of players are probably pretty happy to just play online with Halo maps. I imagine marketing wouldn't be thrilled with it for Halo 4. But something like that might be neat, and there are a lot of iterations on the concept that could work (from adding the feature a few months later, to special weekends where non-DLC owners could play online on the maps to get a taste for them, etc.). Lots of possibilities, all of which would help keep the community together more strongly than just matching algorthms.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Crackdown also featured a similar DLC model. The paid DLC was actually included as part of the free bucket of content (Keys to the City), so that you could play in the same game as a co-op partner who had the DLC. If that player was host, you could play with the new content.

In your own game? Nope, you had to buy it for that. But it let friends continue to play together, rather than dividing them. Not sure if the sequel had the same model.

I think that would a disincentive for some, perhaps many, purchases, since a lot of players are probably pretty happy to just play online with Halo maps. I imagine marketing wouldn't be thrilled with it for Halo 4. But something like that might be neat, and there are a lot of iterations on the concept that could work (from adding the feature a few months later, to special weekends where non-DLC owners could play online on the maps to get a taste for them, etc.). Lots of possibilities, all of which would help keep the community together more strongly than just matching algorthms.

Microsoft needs to look beyond the players as consumers but also as a community. When a new Halo game comes out, I anticipate the DLC but I also get sad knowing that in roughly 2-3 months after launch, the game's playerbase will be split apart. Halo 2 had the best model for the players: resinstallable DLC disc and everyone had an HDD. Halo 3 had a nice middle of the road compromise - the DLC dropped in price after a while, then we got Halo 3 Mythic which allowed non-HDD owners to finally particpate in all the DLC lists.

Reach has had the worst version of it. The DLC has not reduced in price, and the multiplayer disc release just had the Anniversary maps on it. We'd be in a lot less shitty situation right now if they had just made Reach: Mythic and put the entire multiplayer + firefight suite on that disc. We have also not gotten a free DLC map. But after the silly requirements Microsoft put on Cold Storage, I can probably see why.

Heck, we would be in a lot better situation as it is right now if Anniversary had Forge World included along with the Anniversary maps. When you really think about it, the Halo 1 Glorification Disc not having what could be debated as the signature Halo 1 map is kind of silly :p In that case we would have at least had a bridge map that both Anniversary and Reach disc players have. But I guess a second disc was out of the question.
 

FyreWulff

Member
http://halo.xbox.com/Forums/yaf_postst48556_spectator-mode-Atlas.aspx?g=posts&t=48556&#

Flamesword is trying to get something going for Spectator Mode. Let's hope 343 already had it in the plans because it seems a little late right?

Bungie tried to get it into 3, don't know about Reach though. I think it's one of those features that always get cut for time due to not really being required to get the game up and running. When it was in Halo 3 you just switched to it like another team, with the color being white. Would be cool to have though.
 
there are a lot of iterations on the concept that could work (from adding the feature a few months later, to special weekends where non-DLC owners could play online on the maps to get a taste for them, etc.)
Oh, definitely. Like if they made a New Maps! playlist that anyone could play, but non-DLC owners would have complimentary limited access (through finite game tokens or a time limit) while DLC-owners could play at their leisure. This would strongly promote the content to the playerbase and increase the population for those that have purchased the content.
 

MrBig

Member
343 should take heed of EA/Dice's inclusion of the first DLC for pre-order/first run purchasers. It's the only pre-order exclusive I've ever seen that is an actual boon or isn't a detriment to other players. Seeing that notification for my free DLC pop up today when I booted up BF3 today was sweet :)
 

wwm0nkey

Member
343 should take heed of EA/Dice's inclusion of the first DLC for pre-order/first run purchasers. It's the only pre-order exclusive I've ever seen that is an actual boon or isn't a detriment to other players. Seeing that notification for my free DLC pop up today when I booted up BF3 today was sweet :)

Back to Karkamd is amazing, best map pack ever. didn't like too many of the default BF3 maps but this solved that problem
 
So Im at my college library right now, and an overhead announcement from security goes "Attention, attention, this is the head of security, we had an incident and recommend everyone walks to their cars in pairs and if needed asks for a security escort. That is all." Or something of the sort. How incredibly vague.

Everyones all...errrr...huh?

So anyways, have I mentioned im craving some Halo 4 news? Nope? Well Ill say it now then- Im craving some Halo 4 news.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
So Im at my college library right now, and an overhead announcement from security goes "Attention, attention, this is the head of security, we had an incident and recommend everyone walks to their cars in pairs and if needed asks for a security escort. That is all." Or something of the sort. How incredibly vague.

Everyones all...errrr...huh?

So anyways, have I mentioned im craving some Halo 4 news? Nope? Well Ill say it now then- Im craving some Halo 4 news.

Walk out alone, bring a camera.
 
The way CoD does it essentially creates a duplicate "virtual" copy of each playlist. But they also have the population to support doing that.

In Halo's case, if the algorithm is cranked all the way up to 'match dlc owners first' then you basically end up creating a virtual second copy of the list, and you don't know how many people are in that section of it. At that point you might as well make the playlist DLC required so that you know the population reflects the true DLC owner count and search times stay fast for DLC owners

Some of the lesser popular playlists in COD have 1000 or less people just like Halo does, and it still works fine. I understand not making it an absolutely hard filter, but it should at least be hard enough that you get the DLC you have almost all the time.

343 should take heed of EA/Dice's inclusion of the first DLC for pre-order/first run purchasers. It's the only pre-order exclusive I've ever seen that is an actual boon or isn't a detriment to other players. Seeing that notification for my free DLC pop up today when I booted up BF3 today was sweet :)

The expansion is so hawt!
 

kylej

Banned
So Im at my college library right now, and an overhead announcement from security goes "Attention, attention, this is the head of security, we had an incident and recommend everyone walks to their cars in pairs and if needed asks for a security escort. That is all." Or something of the sort. How incredibly vague.

strafe and or gandhi hop
 
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