• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

HaloGAF |OT: Anniversary| So fades the great harvest of our betrayal.

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Yeah I heard that too and cringed. Who the hell has been watching Halo 2 Anniversary tournaments featuring pros and thinking the combat is slow or not modern? Apparently crawling, going prone, or moving like a snail when aiming down sights is fast. But jumping while throwing grenades and shooting is slow.

I'm guessing the only reason they say slow is because it's not sprint, and doesn't have that quick ADS kill time.

Am I too old, or too new school for an old guy? I honestly can't really discern, qualitatively, between normal Halo zoom and ADS. Not that I can't tell the difference, more like it's the contrast between Forza and Ridge Racer, in that neither of them is "correct" but rather they are different ways of approaching a literal perspective?


Like bad NO ADS is worse than good YES ADS. Maybe I am overthinking it. Anyway, good hipfire is vital. TO ME.
 
Am I too old, or too new school for an old guy? I honestly can't really discern, qualitatively, between normal Halo zoom and ADS. Not that I can't tell the difference, more like it's the contrast between Forza and Ridge Racer, in that neither of them is "correct" but rather they are different ways of approaching a literal perspective?

stinkls plz

Aim-Down Sights (ADS) does not belong in Halo. The definitive guide (work in progress).

Essentially Aim-Down Sights is shorthand for gameplay mechanic in shooters where there are two discrete aiming modes: Aiming Down Sights (ADS) and Hipfire. This is the de facto standard for modern military themed shooters like Call of Duty and Battlefield. By default, the player is in hipfire mode, which allows the player to look around quickly but generally not fire the weapon accurately. To fire accurately, you need to enter ADS which allows for more precise aiming by lowering the effective sensitivity of the controls, usually both the "look" stick and the "move" stick. This is fine for some games built around it. But Halo is not one of those games.

Halo gameplay (and this is pretty much all from a multiplayer perspective) is built around a golden triangle, where using traditional weapons is still very important but also where grenades and melee are vital to success. Halo also has longer kill times in general which make tracking other players in a battle more important since you have to apply damage to them over a longer period of time.

Since there is no real ADS barrier to aiming, players are more mobile while they fight, making maneuver during a firefight important. You can duck behind a pillar or jump to throw off a burst. But most importantly in my opinion, the lack of ADS means you can smoothly transition to other parts of the "triangle" instantly. There is no artificial choice between aiming your gun accurately and doing anything else. You can throw a nade at a wall to explode under a player chasing you and whip around and immediately start pouring bullets into his or her face and finish them off with a punch to the throat without having to enter what amounts to "shoot gun mode".

Halo-style, there are way more diverse choices available to players in most situations, and they aren't automatically screwed if they turn a corner and an opposing player is already ADS'd in down the hallway. Battles are decided more often by skillful use of movement, consistent aim over time, and exploitation of other parts of the triangle than first-shot accuracy. The lack of ADS also means that since players aim isn't boosted at medium or long ranges, they have an incentive to close the range where other parts of the triangle shine. That makes for more diverse and interesting encounters. This is fun (tm). If you do not find this fun, Halo is not your game.

You might hear people say Halo games already have ADS. Not really, in true ADS games the vast majority of shooting encounters involve ADS. In Halo zoom, even if available on the equipped weapon (which you cannot assume), is useful only in a subset of long-range encounters and is more clearly disadvantageous in short-range encounters (since long kill times require you to keep on-target longer).

People have suggested making ADS optional or purely cosmetic... Why? There is no point to have a feature that does not affect gameplay (which I'm not sure is even possible since it's at the very least going to mess with your view) but removes a button that could be used for something actually interesting.

----------

It's late, I'm tired, will re-read and prolly edit tomorrow, feedback welcome. I will be linking back to this whenever someone brings up how Halo should be Call of Duty but with power suits (and aren't they fucking making that already?).
 
wt?






Eventually











w

Frankie lost his tea confirmed? Bad round of golf?

Uh, prototypical does not mean what I think you think it means.

Huh?

Wahrer, it all looks amazing, only problem I've encountered is the PLC Hub page

Yeah, I've kept all of the stock site template stuff intact in that one because I'm going to progressively replace the examples with in-universe content like individual sandbox elements, etc.
 
Am I too old, or too new school for an old guy? I honestly can't really discern, qualitatively, between normal Halo zoom and ADS. Not that I can't tell the difference, more like it's the contrast between Forza and Ridge Racer, in that neither of them is "correct" but rather they are different ways of approaching a literal perspective?


Like bad NO ADS is worse than good YES ADS. Maybe I am overthinking it. Anyway, good hipfire is vital. TO ME.

NotLikeThis.gif

Halo scope zoom please, always and forever. If you (MS/343) have to do ADS in any Halo titles please always make sure there is a BR or DMR of a competitive standard with classic Halo scope zoom in the same ADS sandbox. Destiny ADS is a very high standard but gets shit on by Halo scope zoom and descope IMO.

I'm old-ish and can tell the difference :)
 

HTupolev

Member
Am I too old, or too new school for an old guy? I honestly can't really discern, qualitatively, between normal Halo zoom and ADS.
The big difference is that Halo zoom is basically just used to fine-tune the look sensitivity and give you zoom. It does not force any compromise on ability to move versus ability to shoot. Classic Halo zoom thus permits Halo to be a run-and-gun game, while ADS shooters see a more run-or-gun gameplay flow.

The differences are small under a microscope, but have tremendous impact.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
The big difference is that Halo zoom is basically just used to fine-tune the look sensitivity and give you zoom. It does not force any compromise on ability to move versus ability to shoot. Classic Halo zoom thus permits Halo to be a run-and-gun game, while ADS shooters see a more run-or-gun gameplay flow.

The differences are small under a microscope, but have tremendous impact.

That's quantitative. It's a HUGE difference. I guess I mean the difference between red and white wine?


RED FO LIEF
 
That's quantitative. It's a HUGE difference. I guess I mean the difference between red and white wine?


RED FO LIEF

He's describing the effects and qualities of the two aiming styles (as did Prinz Eugn). Those are qualitative. If he mentioned things like the actual sensitivities or FOV values inherent in the two design paradigms, then it would be quantitative.

The ability to aim accurately all the time is a quality of Halo. I fail to see how it's a quantitative property.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
He's describing the effects and qualities of the two aiming styles (as did Prinz Eugn). Those are qualitative. If he mentioned things like the actual sensitivities or FOV values inherent in the two design paradigms, then it would be quantitative.

The ability to aim accurately all the time is a quality of Halo. I fail to see how it's a quantitative property.

He's talking (in my understanding) about the way you feel about the effect it has on how you play. Therefore qualitative?

Whereas ADS actually makes it EASIER to shoot distant bad guys? QUANTITATIVE?

Not arguing, defining my perspective?
 

Booshka

Member
That's quantitative. It's a HUGE difference. I guess I mean the difference between red and white wine?


RED FO LIEF

I need that ADS mega post someone had in a PC FPS thread about how ADS was qualitatively bad for FPS. It boils down to marginalizing the skill of both moving and shooting, you have to do both without ADS, you do one or the other with ADS. Think about the difference in a Lightning Gun duel in Quake 3 compared to any Assault Rifle duels in CoD with ADS. Quake 3 is not only much more skill intensive, but far more exciting and fun.

Like I have always said, Halo needs to be the medium paced Quake for Consoles, ADS goes against that idea wholeheartedly.
 
I need that ADS mega post someone had in a PC FPS thread about how ADS was qualitatively bad for FPS. It boils down to marginalizing the skill of both moving and shooting, you have to do both without ADS, you do one or the other with ADS. Think about the difference in a Lightning Gun duel in Quake 3 compared to any Assault Rifle duels in CoD with ADS. Quake 3 is not only much more skill intensive, but far more exciting and fun.

Like I have always said, Halo needs to be the medium paced Quake for Consoles, ADS goes against that idea wholeheartedly.

Honestly, I think Titanfall kinda breaks these assumptions since the ADS mechanics actually serve to increase the skill gap for good movement. If you want to ADS and move it requires to time your shots between jumps where you can ADS without affecting your speed, but you have to finish before hitting the next surface. That said, it also means that the learning curve for moving and shooting accurately is steeper.
 
He's talking (in my understanding) about the way you feel about the effect it has on how you play. Therefore qualitative?

Whereas ADS actually makes it EASIER to shoot distant bad guys? QUANTITATIVE?

Not arguing, defining my perspective?

Quantitative values necessitate some value, number, or general quantity. Perhaps you're thinking of some different terminology. Also not arguing, but the posts are not quantitative by definition, so I'm just trying to get at what you mean. In modern diction, especially science and tech, these are well established terms.

For example, if I say something like "ADS aiming implementations slow down your reticle while active", that is a qualitative statement. If I say "while ADS is activated, reticle movement decreases from 100% normal speed to 50%", that is a quantitative statement.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Another note is due to how the way ADS works, you justify the tradeoff of being super slow but accurate in ADS by making the hipfire accuracy extremely terrible, or else nobody would ever ADS. Needless to say that would make Halo fall apart completely.

I've always found the presence of sprint hilarious when we have analog sticks on controllers. The reason games have a separate sprint button is inheriting a limitation of PC shooters that had to use a binary input keyboard, so they would map 'normal' walking to WASD and then let you modify your movement with another key.
 

dwells

Member
This assumes that it looks like garbage now doesn't it? Isn't that premature to say the least? It’s so far-fetched to directly go blaming suits that go “Oh, people on the internet are going to complain about this so make this a high of resolution as possible.” Without going to the obvious, they could not get it to full 1080p, so they made some compromises because of the switching and framerate. Frankie even admitted if the switching was not in place they could have increased the resolution.

If your theory about “internal politics” was so sound, why didn’t they just lower everything in the package to that weird resolution across the board so that doesn’t stick out? They went above and beyond on all the other stuff, but could not get that H2A campaign up to par. You can’t seriously bring that argument to the table.

You’re right about H:CE resolution. My bad.

No, it doesn't assume it looks like garbage. You don't seem to understand the argument, with all due respect. I get that Halo 2 Anniversary's resolution had to be slashed some 30+% in order to get performance to an acceptable level. My issue is with strange resolution that was selected.

What I'm saying is that the 1328x1080 resolution does not provide any benefit over the lower 1280x1080 resolution. In fact, those extra pixels can actually be detrimental to overall image quality. 1280x1080 is a more standard resolution, having been used before in both 3D rendering and digital video, and scales evenly at a 3:2 ratio up to 1920x1080. Additionally, it's actually very slightly less work for the system to render.

To summarize, 1328x1080, the resolution for H2A, offers no benefits over 1280x1080, and instead is detrimental. The only advantage it has is that it doesn't have the number "1280" in it, which uninformed gamers and press outlets might associate with 720p.
 

RowdyReverb

Member
Quantitative values necessitate some value, number, or general quantity. Perhaps you're thinking of some different terminology. Also not arguing, but the posts are not quantitative by definition, so I'm just trying to get at what you mean. In modern diction, especially science and tech, these are well established terms.

For example, if I say something like "ADS aiming implementations slow down your reticle while active", that is a qualitative statement. If I say "while ADS is activated, reticle movement decreases from 100% normal speed to 50%", that is a quantitative statement.

I think he's using quantitative to describe a concept as being firm and understandable, as in "quantitative evidence". While not technically correct, I've heard the word used in this sense in conversation. Sort of like "literally". I can't really think of the right word to use there though. Sensible? Strong? Well-defined?
 
I'm referring to the tendency of ADS systems to literally impede movement by drastically slowing movespeed. It's much more than psychological.

You also tend to lose a bunch of screen real estate in ADS and therefore awareness. Often recoil or reticule movement is heavily applied when using ADS, which I also don't like. Halo scope with descope was clean, simple, accurate and allows you to beast in hip fire or zoomed modes while retaining your movement.

Sounds quite Spartan ability like now doesn't it?
 
Can't believe I overlooked this
tumblr_ncziszyNvm1strbfio3_500.jpg
 

Booshka

Member
Honestly, I think Titanfall kinda breaks these assumptions since the ADS mechanics actually serve to increase the skill gap for good movement. If you want to ADS and move it requires to time your shots between jumps where you can ADS without affecting your speed, but you have to finish before hitting the next surface. That said, it also means that the learning curve for moving and shooting accurately is steeper.

Nope, Tribes and Quake still take way more skill than Titanfall could ever hope to, they move faster and are more dynamic as well. You can't 100% commit to movement and shooting in Quake either, because perfect movement via strafejumping and rocketjumping will impede your aim, so aiming while moving is a slightly different discipline than just dedicated movement. ADS kills the possibility of that variability in movement/shooting and instead separates the two.
 
Honestly, I think Titanfall kinda breaks these assumptions since the ADS mechanics actually serve to increase the skill gap for good movement. If you want to ADS and move it requires to time your shots between jumps where you can ADS without affecting your speed, but you have to finish before hitting the next surface. That said, it also means that the learning curve for moving and shooting accurately is steeper.

Individual gun battles will still result in a player using ADS to get a kill to me most movement abilities is for traversing the map instead of being used in middle of combat , unless you are fighting someone wall running or double jumping. In COD AW I do see the use of abilities actually being used in a gun fight and a for traversing . ADS does slow down movement, but only when you are in a gunfight, and gunfights don't last very long like in Halo. I don't know many games that has ADS, high movement speed, and long kill times.

ADS can probably work if it's like the perk stalker in MW3 which gets rid of the movement penalty. Although ADS also increases the accuracy and not magnification/range like in Halo, unless you are using a scope. I think that would be qualitative.

Wait, wait, what? Where'd you get this?

If it's real: Sectarian is an awesome name, and I'm glad they're bringing back the Venator, since despite it being a Dead Space knockoff, it was pretty cool.

It's from a fan made menu.
 
Individual gun battles will still result in a player using ADS to get a kill to me most movement abilities is for traversing the map instead of being used in middle of combat , unless you are fighting someone wall running or double jumping. In COD AW I do see the use of abilities actually being used in a gun fight and a for movement . ADS does slow down movement, but only when you are in a gunfight, and gunfights don't last very long like in Halo.

ADS can probably work if it's like the perk stalker in MW3 which gets rid of the movement penalty. Although ADS also increases the accuracy and not magnification/range like in Halo, unless you are using a scope. I think that would be qualitative.



It's from a fan made menu.


Dammit. I thought maybe we had beta leaks floating around :p
 

Onikaan

Member
Well, I tried. I can't enjoy the Crucible. Iron Banner is even worse. The apple has fallen from the tree, rolled away down the hill and landed in a giant cow turd.

Bring me November.
 
It kills me that Venator is a thing. Name-wise, I mean. Most people probably pronounce it like "senator" with a V, but in Latin Vs are pronounced as W. It's "way-nah-tore."
 

-Ryn

Banned
Well, I tried. I can't enjoy the Crucible. Iron Banner is even worse. The apple has fallen from the tree, rolled away down the hill and landed in a giant cow turd.

Bring me November.
Maybe the seed it leaves behind will grow into a magnificent tree fertilized by the shit it was planted in.

It kills me that Venator is a thing. Name-wise, I mean. Most people probably pronounce it like "senator" with a V, but in Latin Vs are pronounced as W. It's "way-nah-tore."
Is Latin dead?
 
Top Bottom