It's an intresting concept but I'm not sure if it would translate well if at all to halo.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
HaloGAF |OT: Anniversary| So fades the great harvest of our betrayal.
- Thread starter User 73706
- Start date
Fighting games are a completely different beast. They are 1v1 matches that are based off of rounds and they also tend to have in depth systems for countering those situations that are actually taught to the player in the game. Halo doesn't have this. At least not in a way most people are aware of so it could certainly learn from the genre.
I don't think anyone is calling out the players so much as the system that allows it. At least not from what I'm seeing.
Got a chuckle out of me
Spawn camping: not even once
Really? I loved Highlands. Though I'm a sucker for big beautiful maps. Noble was great though from what I remember.
YourExWife
Member
The way I read it, almost your entire argument could be negated with some kind of well-designed ranking system. I WONDER IF WE'VE EVER HAD THAT BEFORE? It's not the good players' fault if the game's Trueskill is a fucking joke. We shouldn't change an integral part of a game they enjoy and have played and, arguably, put more time and effort into than the "average" player for over a decade just so people feel better or to accommodate an everyone-wins attitude to gaming.
Again, games should not be designed to accommodate completely mis-matched opponents. Your complaints or concerns with gameplay and game design should also not be using those matches for reference to decide gameplay changes.
You say, in competitive play, it should be there and makes sense, but that the average player might not know about it, so we should get rid of it or put it in some tutorial or something. No offense, but the last thing games need nowadays is more hand-holding.
It's an advantage specific to knowledge of spawns and map awareness, often earned by fighting over a power weapon in the first place. Other than distance, what makes that acceptable whereas a kill resulting from that same knowledge and pushing a defensible position not acceptable?
If it doesn't matter that much, then what's the point of having such a stupid spawn occur anyway. Just get the game over with faster.
OK, I suppose we should design the game around people who don't give a shit about learning multiplayer, getting better, playing with their 8 year old cousin on splitscreen, or "trying". Dude, there is no other option in Halo 4 (and arguably Reach) other than "social" playlists. Are these people that have all this gameplay knowledge supposed to just not try to win like they have for over a decade because they have no other playlist? That's a poor excuse for a defense of a position.
So lengthening a game for the sake of making it longer? You said it yourself. Chances are that dominant team is just going to shit on the other team, it's just going to take up more of everyone's time. You're getting wrecked either way. Rather it was over and done with myself instead of dragged out.
Orochinagis
Member
Amazing.
it could need a map redesign to not be simple square or a rectangle but yes I agree with you.
Actually it was added in Invasion beta for the attack team last phase in boneyard.
Kibbles
Member
Amazing.
The beta is out?
Poodlestrike
Banned
I guess I can understand that. Personally, I always prefer feeling like I've got a fighting chance (even though it generally isn't the case), but I can see just wanting a match to be over. They really ought to implement some sort of forfeit vote in that case, though; seems like it'd be a better workaround.
Man, you are reading way too much into this. I'm not saying that the entire game has to cater to casual players, since that'd be ridiculous. Just that one aspect of any game I personally detest is the "death on spawn," so I'm arguing against its inclusion. That's all.
I'm also going to switch stance slightly and agree with Orochinagis; having a "safe spawn" zone would alleviate a lot of the frustration, IMO. Plus, it does seem to be hinted at by the H5 trailer.
Ragnarok Flames
Banned
Casual players are the reason Halo has become the abortion it is now.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
You detailed several reasons why I like fighting over the ridge in Halo 4's Ravine and any other map where there are advantageous positions you need to control.
Not the sort of big team map I enjoy breakpoint or tempest was more my thing.
The bone yard ones are a double edged blade on the one hand you are safe in there but the way it was you didn't last long one you left it.
I can get on 4.
Poker Face
Member
Think about how matches are played in Halo then compare it to how Battlefield plays. It would not translate well and it would just make maps even worse than they already are. Plus, even if there is an area where you spawn just so you can "jump in the action", it would be abused as well.
Just have a good ranking system and sort out the randoms from the skilled.
YourExWife
Member
But in Halo, decision making, map knowledge, and weapon/position control is arguably more important than shooting ability. Something as "simple" as changing the spawn system to make an easier time for social players has huge repercussions, H4 spawns being a great example. In an effort to lower the ability of the better team to control spawns, you get really dumb stuff like Skyline CTF, a gametype/map combo that would work really well in any other Halo, but H4 it's just a crap-shoot.
A "safe zone" might work, but what happens when a better team just sits outside the safe areas and waits for you to enter the battle area? Halo maps, especially 4v4, aren't many square miles large like something like Battlefield. All this would do is delay the inevitable. Either you die now and try to fight back a little bit, or you do the same thing, just 15 seconds later. I suppose you could just stay in your safe zone if you keep getting killed every time you poke out or try to fight back, but then why are you even in the game?
I think you mean Settler, a forge map on Ravine
We discovered during the recent flag rotational playlist that Settler can be a fun map, with the right weapon set. The maps spawns are still kind of terrible, but getting rid of Infinity settings in that playlist made Settler entirely enjoyable. Again, a different Halo game and Settler might be an enjoyable BTB or CTF map.
None taken man. A GOOD Ranking system would definitely help with the issue no doubt.
That is only part of the problem though. My arguments aren't just based off of mismatched battles. That would be a much easier fix. I think both the current and past spawn systems are flawed and there is a middle ground to be met.
I don't want to advocate hand holding or an everyone wins attitude either.
There isn't any shortage of that in the industry. I'm not saying to increase aim assist, make players have an invincibility period on spawn, or have waypoints pop up on the enemy teams positions. I'm saying that players who don't know this stuff should be able to learn from the game so that they can become better players. Plenty of other competitive games do this from a variety of genres. This shouldn't be some secret that players need to search and learn. That's stupid. Just because players from the early days had to do without some form of teaching doesn't mean that new players should be required to do the same. Share the knowledge and let players learn so there can truly be an equal playing field with a larger and more well versed community.
Wasn't calling you stupid by the way.
Just wanted to point that out.
I love Bungie
Amazing.
Eh...
shrug.gif
Aggrotek
Member
Are we still frenz?
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Amazing.
Anybody got a spare beta key or know where to get one?
I'd like to try it and don't want to have to pre-order just to do so.
Not sure if I'll like it or not.
Poker Face
Member
everyone gets three marketplace codes with one beta code, so I'm sure people will have extras.
If not you could just order on Amazon, and then cancel the pre-order. You don't have to put any money down with them.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Alright, I yield. The only good way to avoid concentrated spawn killing in Halo (without making drastic changes with unforeseeable alterations) is a good matchmaking system. I convert.
Apparently, each preoder gets you 3 codes; I'll PM you one of mine when I get them, though I am on the X1.
YourExWife
Member
But how far should that be taken? How much do we need to explicitly spell out? Most of my map and spawn knowledge I get from playing the damn game and thinking about the shit that happens when I play. I didn't have some tutorial or thing that said "hey! here's a jump you can do to get to some position faster" or "you may notice your enemy is likely to spawn here so keep an eye out".
Should we have things in the MCC that tells players that are new to H1/H2/H3 every little strategic jump or sneaky path as well? They are just as important as spawn knowledge in those games.
Aggrotek
Member
Hopping on in a min.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
MrGreencastle
Member
You know, it does suck getting killed right when you spawn - especially when you have something like an AR start, so I hope a precision weapon start/secondary becomes standard going forward (or at the very least, a choice). There may be some things that could be adjusted to better accommodate newer players, but there is a point when you're giving players too much information. I'm not convinced "safe"-spawn zones are the right solution. Controlling spawns is a pillar of Halo gameplay - controlling weapon spawns, powerup spawns, vehicle or team mate/enemy spawns, etc. That, along with proper geometry, is what gives a particular map its "flow".
There should be a "reward" for someone who not only possesses greater knowledge of the game's systems than his opponent, but also employs that knowledge through adjusting his/her play accordingly. This is called depth, and the more of it, the longer people will play a game - to get that leg up on their opponents.
Likewise, a player who does not employ their knowledge of the game in their play, or does not play or pay attention enough to the game to build that knowledge in the first place, should not be "rewarded" at all, they should be "punished" as a teaching process. You learn by your mistakes, etc.
The above only works if the systems are predictable. If there isn't a pattern, then knowledge can't be built, as no amount of "actual" experience would lead to an adjustment in play. ie: If I do X, then Y should happen:
-If I go to rocket-spawn at the correct time interval, then I should get rockets, assuming I am victorious over my opponents who were also on their way there.
-If I time a grenade at bottom lift on the Pit, or if I am standing in the area, then no one opponent spawn there, and, along with my team mates working cohesively, we should be able to "force" a player to spawn elsewhere - also at predictable locations.
-If I die after acquiring a position of power (be it weapon, spawn, or location-based), then I should "lose" that position. And if my team further "allows" another team to each establish their own positions of control, then my team should "suffer" for our mistake, and the other team "rewarded".
Halo 4 replaced much of the game's "actual depth" with "artificial depth" via the loadout/progression system, and with the ordnance/spawn system that naturally went along with it. A "power" position of a particular map was no longer due to weapon/powerup/vehicle/spawn control, but purely due to geometric advantage. This, along with the added unpredictability of weapon spawns, armour abilities, custom loadouts, and personal ordnance all but killed competitive play. Because how can you adjust and thus improve your play to patterns that don't really exist any more? The possible variables in an encounter should be more narrow than the "infinite" of what we got with Halo 4, but not without the actual depth gleaned only through experience rather than through the HUD. The combination of short-term and long-term player awareness.
The greater gap that might exist between players or teams who employ their knowledge and players who don't is more a question of skill-matching than gameplay systems I think. And that can always be improved upon in meaningful ways.
--
Edit:
More of this "actual" gameplay depth in my opinion is a good thing. It is ok for a particular gametype's deeper mechanics to not be immediately obvious when playing the first few games (or even many dozens). These are the types of systems that are only gleaned through either playing many games and paying close attention to things like the clock, and spawn locations, or by watching other, better players who have effectively adjusted their play based on what they've learned through experience.
Spelling out these deeper mechanics for people I think is a detriment to the overall depth to the gameplay, same as adjusting the spawn system to accommodate lesser skilled players through randomness or unpredictability. The average player only requires a simple objective: kill the enemy team, capture the flag, arm the bomb, get points via headshots, etc. That's enough to steer the game in the right direction.
But when playing many games over time, you start to learn and notice deeper details like: rockets spawn at X, sniper spawns at Y, shortcut jump is at Z, etc, things that in the past haven't been spelled out for players through the HUD - on purpose. And over time this player's knowledge evolves: rockets spawn at X intervals, or if I time a grenade at X location then a respawning player spawns at Y instead, or many other deeper systems like that. It encourages people who want to get better to pay attention to what's happening on screen more, and especially to things that are only obvious to someone who is paying close attention to what's going on in-game, rather than the simple objectives that are directly spelled out for you on the HUD. If everything is spelled out for newer or less aware players, then you are removing a considerable amount of that actual depth and having the HUD do the work for you - that's not fun for new players, because it's information overload, and it's not fun for experienced players, because it eliminates the advantage/reward that can be had from building up said knowledge and experience in the first place, making player awareness - short-term, or long-term - useless. Why play a competitive game for months or years like in the past when it has little to no underlying depth? Actual "experience" vs artificial "experience points".
The Henery
Member
Some scrandy Halo 3 tourney going on right now on Twitch. Heinz, hysteria and snakebite streaming. Also featuring Ogre 2, fear itself, apg and loads of other old pros.
Darkmakaimura
Can You Imagine What SureAI Is Going To Do With Garfield?
Beat the Halo 4 campaign today. I'll have to eventually get SpOps finished but going to just mess with War Games.
YourExWife
Member
Definitely agree. Even at the "pro" levels, stuff like "dirty" weapons wasn't really figured out in Halo 3 for a while. Then the little nuances to it like the fact that the timer was tied to how long you were or weren't standing still after dirty-ing the weapon took even longer. If Bungie had just come out and said it, it would have been less interesting and had less of an effect on the meta-game.
This is unsettling, and according to the 5th amendment of the Declaration of Independence, I have the right to be offended. I also don't know what you are getting at with the .gif, so you'll be hearing from my attorney, Barry Zuckerkorn.
Ragnarok Flames
Banned
GringoSuave89
Banned
Sounds like you need to lob a Bob Loblaw Law Bomb. Though it may be a bit of a low blow.
YourExWife
Member
Too late. He already blue himself.
GringoSuave89
Banned
I think he may need ANUSTART
Well... Yes. But I'm afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run if you will, so I'm afraid I have something of a mess on my hands.
YourExWife
Member
I know the number for a really good Analrapist if you think that might help your situation.
H3 Online Tourney w/ Ambush vs OGRE2 & Friends: - http://www.twitch.tv/heinz | http://www.twitch.tv/snakebite
GringoSuave89
Banned
It's amazing how easy it is to gel right back into things. Only one that doesn't do that for me is Halo 4.
If 343 can integrate it into the game without it being a nuisance then I don't see why not. Make it quick, simple, and enjoyable to learn from. If bots were introduced in future Halo games that could even be a way to utilize it.
I don't think it should go through some in depth explanation of each map and all its tricks as discovering those can be a lot of fun. I learned most everything I know from experience as well. However more in depth stuff such as weapon spawns, how player spawning works, and different ways to counter certain scenarios would be a great help to newer players. I can even see it helping players who just want to train on their own.
The information is out there so why not make it something players can access easily and perhaps gain even more from?
I agree that it shouldn't be spelled out for players most definitely and it was ridiculous how far Halo 4 went with trying to get information to players. "YOU'RE HOLDING THE FLAG", yeah no shit thanks for the heads up. However things such as the small waypoints that we saw on the Ascension are what I think of as a good example of subtle hints that aren't distracting or in the way.
Not sure that I entirely agree with the idea that teaching players takes away from the "depth" of the game for more experienced and new players. If they were to just tell you everything about the game then yes I can see your point but just helping the player to understand the rules of the game and how it plays shouldn't be an issue in my opinion.
If the game has a solid ranking system as well then the more experienced and better players shouldn't need to worry about losing depth in the game. Unless you meant that having a bunch of information on your HUD would be detrimental in which case I definitely agree. I don't think that filling your HUD with a bunch of info is the way to teach players. Perhaps in some separate mode where you are able to learn the map but during gameplay that kind of stuff is horrible.
Good games bro
Aggrotek
Member
You too! I'm down to play anytime.
Steelyuhas
Member
The world's first?
lizardwizarding
Neo Member
I think the spawn argument is a silly one. Maps have a finite space to place players and a good player is going to know (through process of deduction) where people can spawn. The margin of error to mess up the prediction and follow through of 'spawn-trapping' is just as much as a someone trying to get out of it on the opposing team.
I also think that no offense, those that can't understand this have not had the ability or pleasure of pulling it off themselves, or coordinating it with a squad. It is literally Halo 101 to beat the other team to the power weapons (either by an aggressive start or getting 3-4 before making a run for them) controlling them and advances an objective push (if there is one) and then finally securing map control.
Saying "it's not fair" and "the match shouldn't be decided by the first kill" all show an ignorance of how Halo plays out. It's extremely unlikely that a player/team can hold out an entire match this way. This is in respect to evenly skilled (or therein) teams. People carry in match-making all the time, there's precedent for this.
Echoing those sentiments ignores the fact that 'getting out of your spawn' strats have existed since Halo began and it's a higher level understanding that many who casually play the game do no to understand and believe this to be one of the flaws in Halo. It's just a lack of understanding of actual competitive objective based FPS.
This is the problem, you get players that will run up to this skill-ceiling and blame the game, the players, and whatever else brings them clarity instead of digging in and furthering their play. It's an age-old problem and that's where disconnect is always bred in the community when it comes to players who know the game in-and-out and those that play casually but are somehow content on not learning past a certain point because they feel satisfied with their average play (which is totally fine, but I don't think they ever have the same stake in an argument when it comes to defining what is-and-isn't right).
Obviously ExWife said a bunch of this stuff already but I felt the need to chip in because he's totally right. (I mean this with no disrespect) New to average players in any competitive shooter will give themselves a plethora of reasons of why what happened was not their fault and find issue with the design of the game. In most cases they're just fishing for a reason to not figure out what they did wrong. It's the sign of a good player honestly -- questioning what you could do to avoid the mistake instead of running into it time and time again hoping the 'game' they disown in their frustration somehow throws them a bone out of the blue and rewards their unknowing play.
Halo is not unfair, it's what you decide to do with your time in the match that decides the outcome. Everyone has at one time been there before, getting spawn-trapped, out-shot, out-played, etc. There's a learning curve for everything in Halo and some get to that precipice more than others and find contentment with what they have learned instead of continuing to learn the stuff they don't understand very well.
I also think that no offense, those that can't understand this have not had the ability or pleasure of pulling it off themselves, or coordinating it with a squad. It is literally Halo 101 to beat the other team to the power weapons (either by an aggressive start or getting 3-4 before making a run for them) controlling them and advances an objective push (if there is one) and then finally securing map control.
Saying "it's not fair" and "the match shouldn't be decided by the first kill" all show an ignorance of how Halo plays out. It's extremely unlikely that a player/team can hold out an entire match this way. This is in respect to evenly skilled (or therein) teams. People carry in match-making all the time, there's precedent for this.
Echoing those sentiments ignores the fact that 'getting out of your spawn' strats have existed since Halo began and it's a higher level understanding that many who casually play the game do no to understand and believe this to be one of the flaws in Halo. It's just a lack of understanding of actual competitive objective based FPS.
This is the problem, you get players that will run up to this skill-ceiling and blame the game, the players, and whatever else brings them clarity instead of digging in and furthering their play. It's an age-old problem and that's where disconnect is always bred in the community when it comes to players who know the game in-and-out and those that play casually but are somehow content on not learning past a certain point because they feel satisfied with their average play (which is totally fine, but I don't think they ever have the same stake in an argument when it comes to defining what is-and-isn't right).
Obviously ExWife said a bunch of this stuff already but I felt the need to chip in because he's totally right. (I mean this with no disrespect) New to average players in any competitive shooter will give themselves a plethora of reasons of why what happened was not their fault and find issue with the design of the game. In most cases they're just fishing for a reason to not figure out what they did wrong. It's the sign of a good player honestly -- questioning what you could do to avoid the mistake instead of running into it time and time again hoping the 'game' they disown in their frustration somehow throws them a bone out of the blue and rewards their unknowing play.
Halo is not unfair, it's what you decide to do with your time in the match that decides the outcome. Everyone has at one time been there before, getting spawn-trapped, out-shot, out-played, etc. There's a learning curve for everything in Halo and some get to that precipice more than others and find contentment with what they have learned instead of continuing to learn the stuff they don't understand very well.
FUBAR McDangles
Member
Oh didn't know about the three per order thing. Yeah that would be awesome if you could help me out.
Might do the Amazon thing. Thanks for the help.
Spawn camping... If you are good enough or the other team is bad enough, then I don't see the problem. The only problem I see is the game match making the teams together that are that far apart in terms of skill....
Edit: also I'll have two extra destiny beta codes on X1 since non of my poor friends have one yet. PM for dibs.
Edit: also I'll have two extra destiny beta codes on X1 since non of my poor friends have one yet. PM for dibs.
Similar threads
- Locked