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Hannibal S3 |OT| Man Destroys God. Hannibal Eats Man. Hannibal Inherits The Earth.

Although I didn't love EVERYTHING about the Red Dragon arc (though it started extremely strong, then stumbled a little), this is definitely my favorite iteration of the story, if only because how the finale wraps it up.

Having the Will + Hannibal team up to take him down > "surprise, I'm alive" + Molly killing him.
 
Except in this case the original work still exists and is unaffected, so, like, I don't see why that's a bad thing at all.

Fair enough, not a great metaphor. But I stand behind my point. Fanfiction isn't hurting the original nor is doing any harm, but that doesn't mean it should be taken seriously as a creative work, reasons for which I have outlined above.
 
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ivysaur12

Banned
As enticing as the prospect of seeing a non-white Clarice and a Lee Pace Buffalo Bill envisioned at the hands of Bryan Fuller is, I almost don't even feel like that story really works in this canon with this version of Hannibal anymore. People have pointed out previously and accurately that the relationship between Hannibal and Will Graham here is simply too intense for the quasi-remake of Red Dragon that is Silence of the Lambs to work with someone else running in the same paces, and after that season 3 finale I feel that's more true than ever.

Exactly. If this is the end, then I'm happy with the emotional journey that we got with this series. It makes sense.
 

Solo

Member
I'm surprised at how many people seemed to love this season and the finale. That's cool and I'm happy others loved it. For me something was off right from the premiere and it never felt right again.
 
I'm surprised at how many people seemed to love this season and the finale. That's cool and I'm happy others loved it. For me something was off right from the premiere and it never felt right again.

It doesn't top S2 for me, I think, but I need to rewatch this past season and S1. S3 had some of the highest highs and lowest lows of the series, for me.
 

Solo

Member
It doesn't top S2 for me, I think, but I need to rewatch this past season and S1. S3 had some of the highest highs and lowest lows of the series, for me.

It certainly doesn't come close to S2 for me. I also found it strange that, after being such an intensely stylized and visual season that the finale's direction was nowhere near as slick and memorable as the S2 finale. I know it was intended as a season finale rather than a series finale, but I was also a little bummed out that Jack didn't really get a proper send off like Will and Hannibal did.
 
Loved the finale. The shots were gorgeous in the final battle. Still sort of confused though with the ending? Both had to have survived right? I mean Will Graham survived the red dragon and puts Hannibal in jail? I am thinking more of the red dragon movie since I never read the books. So was it just Hannibal that tracked down Bordelia? On a side note, Gillian was lookin sooo fiiiine at the end! Damn!
 

awp69

Member
I totally get why the season was kinda sour and "off" for a lot of people, maybe even the majority, but for me something as formally experimental and unique as season 3 of Hannibal almost sells itself just on concept alone. It was exciting for me because it really felt like nothing else I'd ever seen on television before, much moreso than the prior two seasons where the superb execution was what really elevated the otherwise-stale "serial killer of the week" premise. This is the kind of visionary, gutsy, and unhindered artistic direction - often more prone to failure given the greater heights it reaches for - that you can find often enough in film but almost never on TV.

For what it's worth, I don't feel like you're in a minority here - a lot of people have been displeased with the season, either or both halves, and it was certainly extremely polarizing by design at any rate.

I fall in your camp. If I had to rank them, I'd probably put it like this.

Season 2 > Season 3 > Season 1

Season 1 was great, but it was the closest the show ever was to a procedural. Things got better as it dumped that in favor of the more overarching character studies, mostly Hannibal and Will, of course.

As far as episodes / finales, it's a really tough call. Season 2's bloodbath was fantastic. But the mid-season 3 "finale" had two amazing dynamics - the wild Verger wrap up and the Will - Hannibal "break up".

This year's finale was good, but really set itself apart with the last 15 minutes.

I think those three episodes will always be what I remember most from the series, finales or otherwise.

And, yes, I actually enjoyed the overindulgent first half as much as the second half. The imagery and cinematography was mesmerizing and unlike anything else on TV including premium channels.
 

jonezer4

Member
If Will hadn't been an idiot he could have killed him solo when D was setting up his camera and shit but instead waited

I don't think Will knew whose side he was on at that point. I believe he did think he was going to let the dragon kill Hannibal. Something Fuller said in an interview about Will casually taking that sip of wine as Hannibal was being prepared for death seemed to back this up, although I don't have the exact quote.

I think it wasn't until he saw Hannibal in absolute peril that he realized he couldn't watch him be killed.
 

Veelk

Banned
I hate to do this, because this topic is fairly controversial and this is sort of a 'refute and run' reply. This is regrettable because I'm sure there are going to be a number of intelligent replies that I nonetheless disagree with, but this is a rare opportunity for me to talk about the nature of fiction and canoncy, something I've contemplated for a long time now. However, school has started and it's going to be a busy year, so I can no longer get into the endless back and forths I usually do in debates like these, so I'll just have to make my answer here as comprehensive as I possibly can.

Stories aren't just blocks of pieces you can play around with at your leisure. They have arcs; beginnings, middles, and ends. Fanfiction posits this belief that everything the writer included in their works is open to negotiation. That strikes me as phenomenally disrespectful, which is so weird to me, because I'd imagine the last thing a fanfiction writer wants to do is throw shade at their favorite creator.

With all due respect, that is precisely what stories are. They are, as you say, arranged in a cohesive structure that makes sense to narrative sensibilities, but they are bits and pieces, and there is nothing wrong with playing around with them. That is infact what the original writers do, and it is only disrespectful insofar as the personality of that original writer. But truth be told, they don't own their work. The fact of the matter is that there is a gross misunderstanding of how writers write their material, and the reason fanfic is derided is because people believe it lacks 'original content', when in actuality it's as original as anything else written without a set reference. In truth, there is actually no functional difference between fanfiction and alledgedly original fiction, and I will explain why.

Before we understand what fanfiction is, we need to understand what original fiction is. How it's made. Lets take Hannibal the character for example, from Harris' book, in broad strokes. He's a cannibal serial killer who was captured and gives advice from his prisons and is very polite. What part of this inherently original? Cannibals existed before Harris ever put pen to paper. So have serial killers. So have captured criminals. So have prisons. So have advisors. So were good manners. But in combining those things into a particular structure, they create Hannibal Lector. I use the word structure in particular because it's important, but the important thing to focus on now is that there is no single element of Hannibal that was introduced to the world with Hannibals introduction, even if we might say that Hannibal himself was a new character.

At it's most basic level, that is how all fiction works. I like to think of it as similar to how we understand matter in our universe. The periodic table of elements is complete. We know every element that exists in the universe. We do not, however, know every object that is composed of those elements in the universe, because the combinations may as well be infinite. Similarly, we generally have every base element of storytelling introduced. In the past 20 years of my life spent reading, watching, and listening, I don't think I've ever encountered a character which any individual trait was not traceable to something that existed before him, even if I may have encountered that element for the first time in a story personally. No matter how far you look back, you can see how any piece of fiction is just a combination of other traits that already exist. The first person who ever wrote about dragons most likely saw a lizard and thought "What if it was huge? And had bat's wings so it could fly? And could breathe fire!" That person put those known, mundane elements together and created a creature that may not exist holistically, but each element of him exists individually. Or lets take a more concrete example. Lord of the Rings. Original, right? Well, yes and no. Tolkien established the general high fantasy genre with his Lord of the Rings, which means before him nothing quite like what he wrote existed. But you can find traces of elements that existed in others work that he based his on, both fictional and non. For example, he based the dwarves off of the Jewish people, in having their land taken from them. Now, Dwarfs are obviously not Jewish people, Tolkien altered them to be a unique fictional structure of them on themselves, but like Hannibal and the common dragon, they were based off known elements. A small peoples. A diaspora. Miners. Beards. Etc. And Edmund Dantes could go on and on about the various myths that influenced Tolkien. Tolkien created a unique world, but even every a creative genius like him, who made one of the most intricate fictional worlds that anyone has ever seen, drew from known elements, not just with the dwarfs, but real life experiences, myths, social movements, etc.

He took a bunch of blocks from other structures, and made his own structure out of them. So that is what fiction is. But there is a difference between writing from nothing and writing in an established universe, correct? Nope. Well, maybe sorta, but in a highly limited way. Again, let me explain.

But before I do, let me just point out how inadequate a term 'fanfiction' is. Literally, it just means fiction from a fan. Now, while I'm sure there are exceptions, I think we can generally say that most fiction put out by writers is something they are happy with, feel a connection to, and think it's good. I'm sure there are people who phone it in, but I think it's safe to say that atleast the writers like what they put out. This makes them fans, unless you have some bizarre definition of fandom that excludes liking your own work. This makes even the most original fiction fanfiction. In this discussion, what we are referring to is not 'fanfiction' but rather 'unofficial fiction as dictated by the copyright holder'. For the purposes of brevity, I will reffer the latter as fanfiction, but understand I am operating on the latter definition, and that's a horse of an entirely different color.

The essence of the argument is that there is some kind of inherent connection between 'creator' and 'creation', such as that the creator 'owns' the creation. There isn't, or I've never seen a good argument for it anyway. It's just one of those things people assume there is, but when you look at it logically, it makes no sense as to why a creator would have any sort of claim outside a legal one over his creation. And it's not how several industries work either. As established, no one 'owns' serial killers, or cannibals, or manners. And yet there is somehow an 'ownership' of Hannibal. This isn't because Hannibal is a unique creation, but because he's a claimed creation by some entity to make money off. And, frankly, it's often that the actual writer does not own the the content himself anyway, especailly in movies and TV and videogames. Doctor Who, for example, is owned by BBC as a corporation, not any of the literally hundreds of writers that have created the actual story content you see when watching the show. The same is true of Batman from DC (and superheroes in general). Nor any of the classical mythological figures, or characters that have fallen into public domain are owned by anyone either, even though there were content creators by them. The people who have been licensed to write some of the best stories in hundreds of mediums have no ownership of the content they produce. It seems absurd to me to suggest there is any sort of sanctity in copy right for this reason between the 'creator' and the creation. Copyright is purely a mechanism to ensure that creative endeavors are monetarily rewarded. At which point that the "creator" can no longer be monitarily rewarded, they become free game for anyone to use. Which is fine, btw, because creative people need to eat too so it's a good way to ensure people can live off writing, so I'm not criticizing copyright as a legal mechanism. However, there is no artistic value to it, just a legal/financial one, because art may as well be defined as playing around with elemental structures and rearranging them to create something 'new'. They might be base enough like the concept of 'serial killers' so as no one can possibly claim that they were the first to introduce the idea of a killer that has killed more than 3 people, or they might be something more elaborate like the basic character traits I've outlined in Hannibal Lector or even something as elaborate as using 95% of the world Tolkien made and using the remaining 5% to tell your own story, but they're all just blocks/structures to varying degrees of complexity, and all of them are completely open to being manipulated however any given person wants.

This is where you might say there is a fundamental difference between playing with small blocks like general concepts vs playing with fairly extensively established blocks. Again, kinda, sorta, but not really. This time, lets examine how fanfiction is made.

It can be done in several ways. Sometimes, it's a retelling of the general story with some alterations. Lets say, you're a fan of Naruto and you decide to give Sasuke a sister that survives along with him (Uh, Sasuke's entire family was killed by his brother, fyi), which means they still follow the general outline (Water Country arc, Chunin exam arc, Sasuke's defection), but things are done differently because of the presence of a new character. HP and the Methods of Rationality is also "What if everything in HP happened but had science applied to it". Lets call this reimagining. Then we have fanfics that continue beyond the point where the original story ended, continuing plot and character and setting development beyond what the show had. Lets call this continuation. Other stories go in a completely different direction, where they take pieces of the another work, such as the Lord of the Rings setting, but do it with their own original characters and maybe a setting that works differently. Alternate universe, I guess? KEep in mind that I am just mentioning a few to save time, but there are literally hundreds of types of fics.

And all these things are fundamentally different because they're working with such large blocks, right? No. Take for example GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire. He has admitted several times that he based this largely off the War of the Roses. Explain to me what is the fundamental difference between saying "Hey, lets take the Harry Potter setting and give it science!" vs "Hey lets take war of the roses and give it magic!" If fanfiction is in some way illegitimate for working with 'large blocks' then GRRM's entire Magnum Opus must be similarly illegitimate for having working with the same kinds of large chunks. Continuation fanfiction is just another word for "sequel" as far as I can see. Both original writers and fanfic writers take an established world and characters and plot and continue it. And the last, well...Here's something many people don't understand about writing: It's a constant process. When most writers say they revise, they don't mean they run it through spell check, changing only a line here and there. Atleast not usually. Revision can and often does literally mean that you rewrite whole storylines. Again, Tolkien himself did this, but I can speak from personal experience with myself where I wrote out a story, established a world, but then decided to write a completely different story revolving around different characters with a different plot with roughly the similar world, but not quite. That sounds like an alternate universe to what I originally wrote out to me. One may have been sent out to my class while the other remains unread by anyone but me, but it still exists. If someone stumbled upon it, it would just be an alternate version of what I ended up going with.

The overall point I'm making here is that there is no functional difference between 'original' and fanfiction. The only distinction is chronological. Where as JK Rowling wrote Harry Potter and considered it finished at some point and published that, a fan simply says "You know, this story could use more work" and continued the process of revision. As a result, maybe they added characters, rewrote universal rules, continued a plot beyond where it ended in a book, wrote from the perspective of a different character. This is all things the original writers may have done. And remember that 'canon' does not depend on the content creator but rather the copyright holder. Hypothetically, the copyright holder may not even read Batman or watch Doctor Who, but it is them that 'owns' the content and can decide what the 'official' version of the story is, for any reason, so it doesn't even matter if it's the original writer who wrote it, as long as it's what is considered the official version by the 'owner'.

"But still!", I hear you think. "Still! There must be something more to being the first to arrange the pieces into large blocks in the first place, right?" Well, this is where I might concede that you have a limited point, but only very limited, because you only get to make those large blocks once, and the vast majority of writers don't stop there.

Make no mistake, actual 'ideas' are the easy part of writing. It's easy to have an idea, while cohesive implementation of those ideas are whats difficult, even when working with established fiction or 'large blocks'. In fact, sometimes it's harder to work with established material. Many authors have been quoted as saying how much more difficult second or third books were to write in relation to the first, partially for the outside factors like expectations and deadlines, but also because now that they have a set world, they have to be careful to not compromise what was established beforehand. Still, creating large narrative structure from small abstract pieces has it's own difficulties. However, this goes back to how writers revise.

I would like to say here that writers have very different ideas of what revision is and how it's done, but nearly everyone agrees on this: it must be done. The only time where small pieces are put together into large narratives is the first draft. Lets say you are a writer and have just finished the first draft of your story. Do you know what your going to do now? You are going to be working with an established universe, rewriting literally everything you see as you see fit. If you want to change the gender of a particular character, you can. If you want to write another storyline where a character goes to a place they passed in the first draft, you can do that too. If you want to rewrite the whole book with only base similarity to the original, that's what you do as well. For the record, you also do this on the second, third and fifth draft. In fact, you do this as many times as you see fit. But, again, notice the lack of functional distinction going on here. As of the first draft, you have stuff down now. It's no longer an unestablished blank sheet of paper. It's established. The universe, the characters, the plot, and the only thing for you to do is decide whether you want to change any of that. If you can point out to me what the functional difference between tweaking or overhauling an established universe as an original writer and tweaking and overhauling an established universe as a fanfic writer are, I'm all ears.

So is there any more authority that one person has over the other in terms of deciding what is canon? Not really. Only in the legal sense, as said before. Copyright is important as a monetary function, but it has nothing to do with legitimacy of the work itself. And the big reason of why that is is basically because all stories are are mental structures. I had expected to elaborate on the word before this, but that didn't end up working out and I'd have to go back and rewrite a good deal of this post which is long enough as it is. Bryan Fuller himself admitted in some interview on this page or the last that he doesn't consider any episode of Hannibal completed, just finished. He had a deadline, but he would have wanted more time to work on the finale we just saw, and many of the episodes beforehand. The significance of this is that the idea that Fuller had in his mind for the episode did not translate anywhere close to 100% onto the actual product we saw. It's just the best he could do under the circumstances. Which is fine, but then keep in mind that we miss a lot of what we saw because that's just how brains work. I remember sculibundo once came in and blanked out an entire portion of a whole episode. That's an extreme example, but we miss a great amount of detail when we read/watch something. It's why rewatching things can gain us new insight.

So when I say that stories are mental structures, it's because we really do have different visions of everything we see, even if we're looking at the same thing, Fuller especially who sees not just what is, but what could have been. Which fans see as well, fyi, but in a different way. One difference between creating and watching and imagining is that there is a certain familiarity with the work that comes by working with it. Fanfic writers generally won't get that with TV shows because they don't ahve to work with cameras or actors or the like. But rest assured, every episode of Hannibal that you see is not what Fuller sees, or what I see, or what anyone around you see. Hugh Darcy also sees things differently, as Fuller repeatedly mentioned that Hugh gave great insight into WIll's character that he completely missed, which he did his best to incorporate. But when we think of what we've seen, we are not thinking of the actual show, but our mental model of it, which is structured differently based on personal beliefs and biases, the amount of attention paid to the source material, how much memory has decayed from that moment, etc. By this time in 10 years, Fuller's mental model of what Hannibal is will be different as a result of time and seperatation. If he rewatches the show, he will see it in a different way, make different insights. His 'canon' will have changed. All of ours will have.

So, that's essentially my thesis on the subject. Any connection between creator and creation beyond the fact that one made the other is imagined. The creator has no rights to the creation, no special privileges, other than being able to say "I created this". They are what anyone is: people who rearrange ideas into a cohesive whole. Fuller concepts like love and murder and wendigoes, cannibalism and etiquette, and good taste and symbolism and blood and hundreds of other things, and they mix it into a particular structure to make Hannibal. Legally, it makes sense if someone were to make the same narrative arrangement that they would sue for plagerism, but understand that this is a financial self preservation measure, not a story preservation. Their arrangement would in all likelihood be worse, but it also could be better. That entirely depends on the skill of that particular creator. But it's impossible for it to actually hurt the story fuller made itself. Stories are immortal like that. They've always existed, it's just a matter of realizing that particular arrangement on paper. So it's nonsense to say that canon exists in some official capacity. The only canon I recognize is what I choose as the best version of any given general arrangement I see. Hannibal the TV show is the best arrangement of Hannibal the general idea that I've seen, so that's the canon to me, even if Harris would choose to disavow and claim only his books are the 'real' canon. He can have that as his own canon if he likes, but his canon wouldn't mean anything to me when I have my own.

Sorry for the long write up. As I said, I'm sure there will be replies to this, but I simply don't have the time to respond to what I'm sure will be very adequate replies, so I hope this covers everything.
 
[no way i'm quoting that but]

It's kind of wack to write all that and then immediately admit that you're just bailing on the conversation, but anyways.

Yes, every idea is built off of the experience of the writer, which itself is made up of all the material that they've consumed in their lives and spat out into, newsflash, something original.

It's not about legal ownership, it's about originality. Fan fiction is at its core, tacitly unoriginal. That's why it gets a "bad rap" (the core of the posited argument here, no one is question its legality, or its morality).

Yeah, ASOIAF is inspired by War of the Roses, but I mean COME ON, DUDE. Did the War of the Roses have the Imp? Ned's fate? Fuckin' dragons?

Fan fiction is isn't "inspired" by its source material, it continues its source material.

But the core of your honestly kind of insulting argument is that the creator's ownership ends after the first draft, at which point it's anybody's property, anybody can expand upon it as they see fit.

Did Tony Soprano die at the end of The Sopranos? What this shitty iPhone movie I shot in a Rhode Island diner presupposes is, "What if he didn't?"

There's a reason works of literature are studied in the manner they are studied. No one teaches a class on Tolkien and gives equal measure to some BBS printout where the Ents got into a trade war with the dwarves, years after RotK. Works of art are reflections of the intellect of their creator (or in the case of movies, tv, music, etc, creators working in collaboration).

This idea of yours pulls them out of the equation, and robs them of their agency. Stories are expressions of a creator's soul, not to sound too melodramatic, but it's true. LotR was Tolkien's response to war that he saw. Harry Potter was Rowling's response, in many ways, to the difficulties of the life she led.

In a very weird way, your hypothesis makes stories commodities way way more than actual legal copyright does. A writer sits down and tells a story because they can't avoid it any longer. It's a living thing that they transcribe.

It's not step one on a long and merry process we all get to take part in.
 

Veelk

Banned
[no way i'm quoting that but]

It's kind of wack to write all that and then immediately admit that you're just bailing on the conversation, but anyways.

Yes, every idea is built off of the experience of the writer, which itself is made up of all the material that they've consumed in their lives and spat out into, newsflash, something original.

It's not about legal ownership, it's about originality. Fan fiction is at its core, tacitly unoriginal. That's why it gets a "bad rap" (the core of the posited argument here, no one is question its legality, or its morality).

Yeah, ASOIAF is inspired by War of the Roses, but I mean COME ON, DUDE. Did the War of the Roses have the Imp? Ned's fate? Fuckin' dragons?

Fan fiction is isn't "inspired" by its source material, it continues its source material.

But the core of your honestly kind of insulting argument is that the creator's ownership ends after the first draft, at which point it's anybody's property, anybody can expand upon it as they see fit.

Did Tony Soprano die at the end of The Sopranos? What this shitty iPhone movie I shot in a Rhode Island diner presupposes is, "What if he didn't?"

There's a reason works of literature are studied in the manner they are studied. No one teaches a class on Tolkien and gives equal measure to some BBS printout where the Ents got into a trade war with the dwarves, years after RotK. Works of art are reflections of the intellect of their creator (or in the case of movies, tv, music, etc, creators working in collaboration).

This idea of yours pulls them out of the equation, and robs them of their agency. Stories are expressions of a creator's soul, not to sound too melodramatic, but it's true. LotR was Tolkien's response to war that he saw. Harry Potter was Rowling's response, in many ways, to the difficulties of the life she led.

In a very weird way, your hypothesis makes stories commodities way way more than actual legal copyright does. A writer sits down and tells a story because they can't avoid it any longer. It's a living thing that they transcribe.

It's not step one on a long and merry process we all get to take part in.

I'm trying not to ditch, but I have a busy day, and it took me 2 hours to write up just that. I can manage a quick reply though.

Unfortunately, I answered much of your questions you ask in the post above you. If you think creating new characters or adding mythological creatures qualifies as original content, then I can assure you that a great deal of fanfiction is in fact original. Likewise, if merely 'continuing' a story is a mark of unoriginality, the vast majority of sequels are unoriginal. Again, if you can explain the functional difference of using one source vs using another, I'm all ears, because your not giving me one right now.

I've taken several English classes, and as a matter of fact, "What could have beens" are a good deal of what we talk about. Contemplation of why one thing was written requires the contemplation of how else it would have gone if things took a different turn.

I'm not sure where the commodity remark comes from. I do not seek to not make stories commodities, because they kind of have to be in a capitolist environment. Well, maybe not so much now because the internet is available to everyone, but it's the only structure that could have worked up until now and we're kind of stuck with it until we go all electronic. I have no issues with stories being commodities, but only in the legal/financial sense. In terms of art, they exist as open springs to anyone who chooses to use them.

You seem to interpret the deviation of the source material as a synonymous to insulting the original creator. This is untrue. A lot of fanfiction is created out of a curiousity for how things might have gone, or maybe just going into unexplored territory, or many other reasons. Even fanfics that fundamentally disagree with the source material and seek to correct it don't necessarily 'insult' the author, just disagree with them. I am failing to see why this should not happen, tbh, because this is basically what criticism does. If you can't disagree with a direction a story takes because it is inherently a slap in the face to the author, then no one should ever say anything bad about any story ever. Fanfics that specifically fix those issues a person disagrees with are merely working to remedy the issues that story had vs just complaining about them, but both are essentially saying "The choice you took with that is wrong." It's a ridiculous insinuation that you should not be allowed to do this.

But the core of your honestly kind of insulting argument is that the creator's ownership ends after the first draft, at which point it's anybody's property, anybody can expand upon it as they see fit.

Did Tony Soprano die at the end of The Sopranos? What this shitty iPhone movie I shot in a Rhode Island diner presupposes is, "What if he didn't?"

Your misunderstanding. I didn't say creator ownership ends after the first draft. I'm saying it doesn't begin at all. I just meant that if there is any sort of authenticity to the idea that creative content is truly original, it only exists in the first draft because that's where you created something from pure abstraction. In the second draft, you are working with something established, however. That's all. And while I'm not sure what the point of your supposition is, I'll play along. Okay, you want to shoot a new ending to Sopranos. Okay? What of it? Whats makes it lesser other than the fact that you are for some reason insisting on filming it in an inferior way. Supposing you had unlimited resources, but not the rights from HBO, why can't you make a better ending about what if he didn't?
 
I'm trying not to, but I have a busy day, and it took me 2 hours to write up just that. I can manage a quick reply.

Unfortunately, I answered much of your questions you ask. If you think creating new characters or adding mythological creatures qualifies as original content, then I can assure you that a great deal of fanfiction is in fact original. Likewise, if merely 'continuing' a story is a mark of unoriginality, the vast majority of sequels are unoriginal. Again, if you can explain the functional difference of using one source vs using another, I'm all ears, because your not giving me one right now.

I've taken several English classes, and as a matter of fact, "What could have beens" are a good deal of what we talk about. Contemplation of why one thing was written requires the contemplation of how else it could have gone.

I'm not sure where the commodity remark comes from. I do not seek to not make stories commodities, because they kind of have to be in a capitolist environment. Well, maybe not so much now because the internet is available to everyone, but it's the only structure that could have worked up until now and we're kind of stuck with it until we go all electronic. I have no issues with stories being commodities, but only in the legal/financial sense. In terms of art, they exist as open springs to anyone who chooses to use them.

I guess I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. And it's the core of your argument. A story is not a spring. It's an original idea that the world inspired in someone.

"One source versus another"???

No, it's life experience versus previously written material. Full stop.

You can write a shitload of a lot, clearly, but it doesn't take much for me to put up an opposing argument, as it just goes to the root of it. A story is not an open spring.

If it was what would be point of literal centuries of endings. If stories were open springs, why does the last page of Infinite Jest still stick with me? Why does the last chapter of Four Fingers of Death still stick with me? Why does the last ten pages of Tenth of December still stick with me?

It stands starkly against the intent of those stories for me to say, hey George. Listen. When the wife comes bounding into the strangers house and Eber realizes how much he wants to live? That's cool and all, but what I'm going to do is write a story about Eber dying of brain cancer after those events. Sure, dude, you imply it, your intent with that story is to depict the moment before all that gets really incontrovertibly bad, but hey, George, your story is just an open spring. Now it's my turn. And I want to see this dude die.

Like, are you serious, dude? Do you not see how horrifically wrong that is?

Or have you just not read this story:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/31/tenth-of-december

Tautologically, your core hypothesis certainly accommodates all the following arguments you make but I will never get on board with that core idea. Sorry. It's just completely antithetical to the point of storytelling, and, honestly, the role of art itself.
 

Veelk

Banned
I guess I just wholeheartedly disagree with that. And it's the core of your argument. A story is not a spring. It's an original idea that the world inspired in someone.

"One source versus another"???

No, it's life experience versus previously written material. Full stop.

GRRM did not experience ASoIaF in real life. He didn't even experience War of the Roses in real life. He was never a midget, never Ned, and never a dragon. He read about those things, from both fiction and nonfiction, and maybe met some some people that were a little like them. He uses his experiences in life to tell a story (which is, btw, reading others work on similar subjects), but he is using imagination to reform those experiences to tell a new story. When fanfic writers write fanfic, they take previous life experiences (reading the source material + whatever else from their lives they want to add) and and use imagination to reform those experiences to tell a new story.

You're claiming there is a difference between the two, but you're not describing what that difference is. I'm describing what the writing process is for both, and I'm not seeing what the fundamental seperation that you claim is there is.

If it was what would be point of literal centuries of endings. If stories were open springs, why does the last page of Infinite Jest still stick with me? Why does the last chapter of Four Fingers of Death still stick with me? Why does the last ten pages of Tenth of December still stick with me?

Because you have a misconception that them being open springs devoid them of meaning. It doesn't.

It stands starkly against the intent of those stories for me to say, hey George. Listen. When the wife comes bounding into the strangers house and Eber realizes how much he wants to live? That's cool and all, but what I'm going to do is write a story about Eber dying of brain cancer after those events. Sure, dude, you imply it, your intent with that story is to depict the moment before all that gets really incontrovertibly bad, but hey, George, your story is just an open spring. Now it's my turn. And I want to see this dude die.

Like, are you serious, dude? Do you not see how horrifically wrong that is?

No, I don't. Okay, so you took a story and lets say you made it worse. Big deal? You seem to be implying that by allowing a possibility for a story to be worse, you will make it a point to do so. I mean, you can, but why would you do that? It's like saying it's horrifically wrong to have testicles because you can punch yourself in them. Anything can be ruined if you go out of your way to abuse it. So...don't?

And while it seems your fairly set on saying you can't write as well as that, it's perfectly possible that someone else can write an alternate ending that is even better than what you got with that story. It won't be the same, but it can be just as good or better as well as worse. It's just a matter of finding a writer talented enough.

Or have you just not read this story:
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/10/31/tenth-of-december

Tautologically, your core hypothesis certainly accommodates all the following arguments you make but I will never get on board with that core idea. Sorry. It's just completely antithetical to the point of storytelling, and, honestly, the role of art itself.

I'm not sure what part of "I am busy" you have difficulty understanding, but allow me to repeat. I am busy. I shouldn't even be writing htis response out and it will likely be my last, even though I want to continue this. I'll read it sometime if you're recommending me a good story, because I'm always up for those, it's just I can't read it right now.

And you still have yet to explain how any of this relates to your argument. Okay, you gave me a story. Lets say it's a really good story. You're not explaining how it relates to story ownership however. From the last quote, you seem to think that it will somehow be ruined if its allowed to be reimagined by someone else. You don't seem to comprehend that you can just say no. "No, I'm happy with this version of the story, I don't need to read anything else that extends or reimagines it."
 
GRRM did not experience ASoIaF in real life. He didn't even experience War of the Roses in real life. He was never a midget, never Ned, and never a dragon. He read about those things, from both fiction and nonfiction, and maybe met some some people that were a little like them. He uses his experiences in life to tell a story (which is, btw, reading others work on similar subjects), but he is using imagination to reform those experiences to tell a new story. When fanfic writers write fanfic, they take previous life experiences (reading the source material + whatever else from their lives they want to add) and and use imagination to reform those experiences to tell a new story.

You're claiming there is a difference between the two, but you're not describing what that difference is. I'm describing what the writing process is for both, and I'm not seeing what the fundamental seperation that you claim is there is.



Because you have a misconception that them being open springs devoid them of meaning. It doesn't.



No, I don't. Okay, so you took a story and lets say you made it worse. Big deal? You seem to be implying that by allowing a possibility for a story to be worse, you will make it a point to do so. I mean, you can, but why would you do that? It's like saying it's horrifically wrong to have testicles because you can punch yourself in them. Anything can be ruined if you go out of your way to abuse it. So...don't?

And while it seems your fairly set on saying you can't write as well as that, it's perfectly possible that someone else can write an alternate ending that is even better than what you got with that story. It won't be the same, but it can be just as good or better as well as worse. It's just a matter of finding a writer talented enough.



I'm not sure what part of "I am busy" you have difficulty understanding, but allow me to repeat. I am busy. I shouldn't even be writing htis response out and it will likely be my last, even though I want to continue this. I'll read it sometime if you're recommending me a good story, because I'm always up for those, it's just I can't read it right now.

And you still have yet to explain how any of this relates to your argument. Okay, you gave me a story. Lets say it's a really good story. You're not explaining how it relates to story ownership however. From the last quote, you seem to think that it will somehow be ruined if its allowed to be reimagined by someone else. You don't seem to comprehend that you can just say no. "No, I'm happy with this version of the story, I don't need to read anything else that extends or reimagines it."

lol i didn't mean read it now
i assumed you'd read it
it's the best short story of all time why wouldn't you have

anyway, i'm not going to keep making the same argument, nor force you to do the same

no story will be intrinsically ruined by expanding on it, but expanding on it seems pretty disrespectful to me, and that's pretty much the point i'm making
 

Veelk

Banned
lol i didn't mean read it now
i assumed you'd read it
it's the best short story of all time why wouldn't you have

anyway, i'm not going to keep making the same argument, nor force you to do the same

no story will be intrinsically ruined by expanding on it, but expanding on it seems pretty disrespectful to me, and that's pretty much the point i'm making

No one's read everything. But I'm still not sure I see it's relevance. Okay, lets suppose it really is the best short story ever written. So what? Doesn't mean that someone can't make anything as good by tinkering with it, or even if it's not as good, then a story still worth exploring by the fact that it doesn't cover everything. If expansion is disrespectful, then essentially every story that ever got a second draft is disrespectful, as nearly everything does.

Honestly, here's the situation as I see it: As of the current argument, it's not that I really 'disagree' with you, it's more that I don't see how I could agree with you in the first place because I don't really see the argument you are making. You're claiming that art is intrisically connected with ownership of content with an emphasis on original vs unoriginal, without adequately defining the distinction between the two. You're reasoning for this is because a really good story was made using source material that was not published work by someone else. Look, the reason my post was as long as it was was because I went to great measures to describe how the writing process works and why claiming ownership of ideas is nonsensical. You're telling me that you disagree with this assertion with various claims of how that's not what art is, but you're not describing how that works. Even if I wanted to agree with you, you're not giving me any grounds for which I can do so.
 
No one's read everything. But I'm still not sure I see it's relevance. Okay, lets suppose it really is the best short story ever written. So what? Doesn't mean that someone can't make anything as good by tinkering with it, or even if it's not as good, then a story still worth exploring by the fact that it doesn't cover everything. If expansion is disrespectful, then essentially every story that ever got a second draft is disrespectful, as nearly everything does.

Honestly, here's the situation as I see it: As of the current argument, it's not that I really 'disagree' with you, it's more that I don't see how I could agree with you in the first place because I don't really see the argument you are making. You're claiming that art is intrisically connected with ownership of content with an emphasis on original vs unoriginal, without adequately defining the distinction between the two. You're reasoning for this is because a really good story was made using source material that was not published work by someone else. Look, the reason my post was as long as it was was because I went to great measures to describe how the writing process works and why claiming ownership of ideas is nonsensical. You're telling me that you disagree with this assertion with various claims of how that's not what art is, but you're not describing how that works. Even if I wanted to agree with you, you're not giving me any grounds for which I can do so.

Because there's no argument. I can't explain to you why the second you talk about "tinkering with it" you're 100% in the wrong, it's just what I feel. You want an argument and there's none to be had.

It's of course super easy to trace the lineage of fanfiction and give a defense for every step of its progress. It's impossible to do that for an original work, except in the abstract. Influence. Inspiration. But no one knows the specifics of that works. So I can't convince you otherwise. Congratulations.
 

Saphyel

Neo Member
I fall in your camp. If I had to rank them, I'd probably put it like this.

Season 2 > Season 3 > Season 1

Season 1 was great, but it was the closest the show ever was to a procedural. Things got better as it dumped that in favor of the more overarching character studies, mostly Hannibal and Will, of course.

As far as episodes / finales, it's a really tough call. Season 2's bloodbath was fantastic. But the mid-season 3 "finale" had two amazing dynamics - the wild Verger wrap up and the Will - Hannibal "break up".

This year's finale was good, but really set itself apart with the last 15 minutes.

I think those three episodes will always be what I remember most from the series, finales or otherwise.

And, yes, I actually enjoyed the overindulgent first half as much as the second half. The imagery and cinematography was mesmerizing and unlike anything else on TV including premium channels.

S2 >> S1 > S3 = Shi* quality :/
 

Kuroyume

Banned
S3 > S2 > S1 for me.

The last episode or two of the Europe episodes + Verger farm episode + Dolarhyde + ending what just too great to me. So much so that I could forgive the first few slow episodes, which admittedly didn't bother me as it bothered others.

That Verger farm episode to me was just so fucking good. Can't shake that image of bloody Hannibal with the hammer out of my head. Alana let a monster loose and he just destroyed everyone. And, I loved the representation of Cordell as the sadistic monster he was.
 
Since other people already started this, I think it might be time for FAVORITES! Still fresh, might be revised later when I actually digest the show in full. (This is shamelessly stolen from comment section in A.V. Club)

Favorite Season: S2>S1>S3 (The differences aren't big though and I still loved Season 3)
Favorite Season Finale: Mizumono (one of the best episodes of TV I've ever seen)
Favorite Episodes: Aperitif - Buffet Froid - Savoreux - Sakizuke - Futamono - Mizumono - Antipasto - Digestivo - The Wrath of the Lamb (in chronological order and 3 each per season, because I can't decide and want to be somewhat fair)
Favorite character: Hannibal Lecter (and Abigail Hobbs, honestly)
Favorite Quote: "Killing must feel good to God, too... He does it all the time, and are we not created in His image? God's terrific. He dropped a church roof on thirty-four of his worshippers last Wednesday night in Texas while they sang at him."
"Did God feel good about that?"
"He felt powerful."

Favorite Shot: Hannibal in that corn field (Sakizuke), looking so alien in his plastic Murder Suit <3
 
Oh God yes this shot. It still creeps up in my mind now and then. It's such a damn good shot. That whole episode is so wonderful.

Presuming this is the one you are thinking of:

I was thinking more about this
http://odstatic.com/todoseries.com/safe_image1.jpg"]http://odstatic.com/todoseries.com/safe_image1.jpg
or this
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/hannibal/images/c/cb/2x02_-_Sakizuke_-_04.png/revision/latest?cb=20140731173352&path-prefix=es"]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/hannibal/images/c/cb/2x02_-_Sakizuke_-_04.png/revision/latest?cb=20140731173352&path-prefix=es"]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/hannibal/images/c/cb/2x02_-_Sakizuke_-_04.png/revision/latest?cb=20140731173352&path-prefix=es
But that one was great too! I just love this field.
 

Monocle

Member
Lengthy Matt Zoller Seitz piece for NY Mag:

- Hannibal Redefined How We Tell Stories on Television
What a great read. That article conveys Hannibal's formal sophistication and explains what's so remarkable about its narrative techniques. Hannibal really does push the medium of television. It's good to see a serious critic recognize how innovative the show is, and articulate its achievements so well for readers who probably haven't seen Hannibal themselves.

If only I knew more people who could be swayed by a great article...
 

Veelk

Banned
Because there's no argument. I can't explain to you why the second you talk about "tinkering with it" you're 100% in the wrong, it's just what I feel. You want an argument and there's none to be had.

It's of course super easy to trace the lineage of fanfiction and give a defense for every step of its progress. It's impossible to do that for an original work, except in the abstract. Influence. Inspiration. But no one knows the specifics of that works. So I can't convince you otherwise. Congratulations.

Then you really haven't been paying attention, because the 'lineage' for fanfiction and ordinary fiction is pretty much identical. At best, it can (but not necessarily does) differs in degree of the complexity/size of the structures it borrows, but it is functionally identical to how writers write original fiction. It's not any more abstract for one than it is the other. And I assert that this isn't really an opinion either. It's not a 'lets agree to disagree' sort of thing, it's a 'your incorrect' thing. Having explained specifically how fiction is written, unless you have some argument that I haven't considered, there is no reason for anyone to believe your viewpoint.

But like you say, you don't really have an argument for your viewpoint, which is a better argument against it's validity than any opposing assertion I can make.
 

Monocle

Member
Fuller's remarks on piracy and TV networks' antiquated practices are interesting. He's certainly perceptive enough to understand the internet's impact on TV audiences. It's sad his show's fate was tied to a fundamentally flawed system. There is an audience for Hannibal. It's just that the greater part of it can't be expected to play by the painfully old fashioned rules of network television. The era of streaming is upon us.

I wish this could be enough to put an end to the talk of Fuller & co. stringing fans along by feigning interest in reviving Hannibal down the road:
[Bryan Fuller:] Well, at this point we&#8217;re trying to get financing for a Hannibal film that would essentially be a version of the arc [I had in mind] for Season 4. And who knows what the likelihood of that is. I&#8217;m hoping that with the finale airing, and with people discussing it, we&#8217;ll be able to have a conversation again about continuing the story, because myself and Mads Mikkelsen and Hugh Dancy are all ready, willing, and able to return to the story when the time is right.

[...]

There&#8217;s a portion of the novel Hannibal that has not been included in any of the adaptations of the story. That was the thrust of the potential Season 4 for us &#8212; taking this plot point from that book and reconceiving it for Will and Hannibal. I was talking with Hugh about this as we were landing the plane on Season 3. And Hugh was like, &#8220;Oh my god, that&#8217;s cool. I want to do that.&#8221; So I know Hugh wants to do it, I know Mads wants to do it, and I want to do it with them, we just have got to find the right time and the right platform to tell that story. And who knows? American Gods1 may be a big hit for Starz, and they may owe me a favor, and maybe they&#8217;ll green-light a Hannibal miniseries. Who knows what will happen?
 
Didn't like the ending, and didn't like the third season much either - the first couple of episodes in Italy were boring, then it became interesting again during the Pazzi and Verger arc, and then came the Red Dragon arc which I felt was too convoluted and lacked cohesion. My favorite seasons were the first two, except the Randall Tier arc which was stupid (mechanical beast suit, really?).

What also disappointed me in the third season was the lack of actual cooking. Food was a big thing in the previous seasons and I extremely enjoyed the dishes and the preparation Hannibal was doing for his guests. This season it felt like cooking was completely abandoned and we only got to see Will slipping further away in abstract hannibalistic madness rather than staying true to his motivation to catching a cannibalistic killer. Even his family got in danger because of Hannibal's actions, but instead they almost kissed in the ending.
 
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