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[Weapxn]

Scientology isn't major, at least I hope it isn't.

Well, I probably just think of it as major due to the news attention it receives in regards to celebrities as well as the fact that I live in Austin, TX, right down the street from the Church of Scientology. So...yeah. But you're right, technically I don't think it's "major."

 

[Red Scarlet]

You don't know what I've read and what I haven't. I've read countless historical accounts of the church, about Joseph Smith, and plenty of other church leaders. Guess what? They don't bother me. I understand that early church members, just like the present ones, were product of their times and they were IMPERFECT human beings. Not a big deal to me. Don't assume you know what I've studied up on and what I haven't. That's not fair, and it's not a very quick way to solidify any argument of your own.

Ok, now I'm fully done with this thread. Carry on and ridicule all you like, it's what a lot of you are best at (be it about religious or secular matters).

If you pussy out of what you came into with your guns blazing, calling posters lying hypocrites and playing off some persecution complex, don't come back to the forum.

 

[EviLore]

See above.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Oh boy...

If you demand some sort of response, you'll get it, but I'm not interested in any back and forth bickering. I simply don't want to continue posting in here because it's fruitless and you've all made up your mind on the manner. Heck, you all made it up before I ever said anything in the first place.

Look, there's a serious double standard in what can and can't be made fun of around here. That's clear. As for guys like Ronito, he sits on the same justification every time. It's the same old "I don't have to be a sheep" argument. Well, that's fine, but has he even once said anything positive about the religion he professes to follow? It's seriously like the kid who buys a PS3 so he can justly troll it, I swear.

I don't have a persecution complex. I don't think HBO is persecuting the LDS church. I do think they are being disrespectful, that's all. How you guys can't see why they're being disrespectful on some level is beyond me. Is it just because you dislike the LDS church? If that's the case, then you're only seeing things from a biased perspective and your argument is moot anyway. When millions of people around the world hold something sacred, it's not that big of a stretch to see why it would be disrespectful for a TV show to make a mockery of said things.

 

[oxtailsoup]

Not wanting to get into the debate. I will say I am curious to see this as an ex-mormon or whatever you would call it. I've always wondered what higher level ceremonies in the temple looked like. I only ever did baptisms for the dead.

 

[Tamanon]

The Mormon church is the only major religious sect that I'm very skeptical of. I just don't get some of it. That and Scientology. I wish someone would make a Scientology show.

Lawyers and Hollywood influence prevents much media about Scientology. I'm pretty sure by this point one of the branches of the religion is Litigation.:lol

 

[ronito]

As for guys like Ronito, he sits on the same justification every time. It's the same old "I don't have to be a sheep" argument. Well, that's fine, but has he even once said anything positive about the religion he professes to follow? It's seriously like the kid who buys a PS3 so he can justly troll it, I swear.

What did I say that trolls anything? I gave my opinion AND even posted the letter you called me a liar for bringing up? You don't think many Mormons aren't freaked out by the endowment? Then you don't know your friends/family as well as you think. This sentiment is hardly held by just me. Others in the thread have said as much. Last I checked this thread wasn't about my religious practices. It was about Big Love showing an endowment. I said I thought it was a problem and shared my experiences. Did I call you a liar? Did I call you a hypocrite? Did I decry some double standard? No. YOU did that. So you tell me who's trolling?

Sigh...DNA Mormons are all the same

Spoiler

Now THAT is a troll

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I'm first generation, bud.

 

[ronito]

I'm first generation, bud.

The secret was in the spoiler.

 

[Big-E]

I don't have a persecution complex. I don't think HBO is persecuting the LDS church. I do think they are being disrespectful, that's all. How you guys can't see why they're being disrespectful on some level is beyond me. Is it just because you dislike the LDS church? If that's the case, then you're only seeing things from a biased perspective and your argument is moot anyway. When millions of people around the world hold something sacred, it's not that big of a stretch to see why it would be disrespectful for a TV show to make a mockery of said things.

The mere showing of this ceremony is being disrespectful? Movies have shown every single aspect of Catholicism and no one gives a shit. In the Godfather the killing montage is played over a baptism for Christ's sake. You seem adamant that they are disrespectful but you need to realize that it is really difficult to see how they are doing so given you don't seem to watch the show or have seen this episode.

 

[Chris R]

The Mormon church is the only major religious sect that I'm very scared of. I just don't get some of it. That and Scientology. I wish someone would make a Scientology show.

Fixed. Mormons and Scientology people control too much shit to be any good.

 

[Fusebox]

I don't think HBO is persecuting the LDS church. I do think they are being disrespectful, that's all. How you guys can't see why they're being disrespectful on some level is beyond me. Is it just because you dislike the LDS church?

I'm still unclear, are they being disrespectful for showing your secret Church ceremonies or for implying that the Church accepts polygamy by allowing Barb to do the endowment ceremony?

Keep in mind that the family in the show have hidden their polygamy from the public, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not that far into the series) even the Church in the show performing the ceremony is unaware Barb is in a polygamous relation.

Have you even seen Big Love?

 

[ronito]

I'm still unclear, are they being disrespectful for showing your secret Church ceremonies or for implying that the Church accepts polygamy by allowing Barb to do the endowment ceremony?

Keep in mind that the family in the show have hidden their polygamy from the public, and (someone correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not that far into the series) even the Church in the show performing the ceremony is unaware Barb is in a polygamous relation.

Have you even seen Big Love?

At the risk of being called a troll and a liar let me try to explain as it's hard for people that aren't mormons to understand.

Imagine for a second that your religion had a ceremony which was supposed to teach you about heaven and contained special secret oaths that you're supposed to take. And in order to participate in this ceremony you have to be very worthy, meaning active in the church, full tithe, the full nine yards. On top of that imagine you had to make an oath that you'd never talk about what said ceremonies and oaths were (up until the 80s it was a rather gruesome oath) lest you die and be damned. Further imagine that the ceremonies are rather.....unusual or, masonic, and if you didn't believe would look rather silly or strange. Now imagine that a TV show just televised it.

 

[critch]

I wish people would turn their skeptical eyes from Mormonism on to all the other faiths, such as Christianity.

Guess what? They're all just as nutty, and started by people that wanted control and money. Why slam Mormons, or hell even Scientoligists, when you are most likely blindly following another religious figure you know nothing about?

 

[Stoney Mason]

I wish people would turn their skeptical eyes from Mormonism on to all the other faiths, such as Christianity.

Guess what? They're all just as nutty, and started by people that wanted control and money. Why slam Mormons, or hell even Scientoligists, when you are most likely blindly following another religious figure you know nothing about?

Some of us slam all of them equally when they are being foolish, prejudiced, or intolerant. And as I mentioned earlier ever since Prop 8 out in Cali I've had a particular disdain for a certain set of Mormons.

 

[Stoney Mason]

So yeah, it's disrespectful on HBO's part.

How?

 

[Spoo]

My family is Mormon (or, more particularly, Latter Day Saints etc), and I was for 14 years before I bailed out -- my family is sad about it to this day, and maintains that I will come back into the Church. Who knows?

I think it's insensative to do this, but, at the same time, it's the entertainment industry. It's about getting numbers and telling a story. Even if I was an every-day mormon, going to the temple, etc, I don't think I'd change my opinion on the matter.

Fact is, secrets like the "endowment" don't stay secret. The church knows this, and anyone who's getting up in arms about it is worried they'll look "bad."

Mormons shouldn't get upset about this. If we're willing to dish it out (and we are), we gotta be willing to take it. OMG religion wars amirite!?

I'd love to download an episode of the series to see how faithful it is, seeing as how I live in Utah, and it'd be fun to see their take on the day-to-day bits.

 

[Ford Prefect]

I can't wait to get into Big Love, I'm sure I'll love it.

As a side note, I'm getting more and more scared by my crazy mormon extended family that I used to love so much and think were the coolest people ever. There's one other atheist in the entire family and he's a meth-head. I fear the next reunion.

As another side note, I've been reading Fawn Brodie's biography (non-hagiographic, of course) of Joseph Smith, and it's pretty neat. She's a great writer, but I can't help but think that I might be better spending my time (it's a big book; I'm a slow reader) reading about an original thinker, or someone who actually did something worthwhile and important with his life...

 

[Hitokage]

I can't wait to get into Big Love, I'm sure I'll love it.

As a side note, I'm getting more and more scared by my crazy mormon extended family that I used to love so much and think were the coolest people ever. There's one other atheist in the entire family and he's a meth-head. I fear the next reunion.

As another side note, I've been reading Fawn Brodie's biography (non-hagiographic, of course) of Joseph Smith, and it's pretty neat. She's a great writer, but I can't help but think that I might be better spending my time (it's a big book; I'm a slow reader) reading about an original thinker, or someone who actually did something worthwhile and important with his life...

You read fiction, don't you? At least this actually happened.

 

[Fusebox]

At the risk of being called a troll and a liar let me try to explain as it's hard for people that aren't mormons to understand.

Imagine for a second that your religion had a ceremony which was supposed to teach you about heaven and contained special secret oaths that you're supposed to take. And in order to participate in this ceremony you have to be very worthy, meaning active in the church, full tithe, the full nine years. On top of that imagine you had to make an oath that you'd never talk about what said ceremonies and oaths were (up until the 80s it was a rather gruesome oath) lest you die and be damned. Further imagine that the ceremonies are rather.....unusual or, masonic, and if you didn't believe would look rather silly or strange. Now imagine that a TV show just televised it.

Thx ronito, although that's a good reason for Mormons to be embarrassed by what airs, it isn't really a good reason for Jeff to say HBO are deliberately being disrespectful by showing it, considering they represent the ceremony accurately enough that is.

 

[Speevy]

I'm glad I didn't come into this thread to share my thoughts on what a great show this is.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Thx ronito, although that's a good reason for Mormons to be embarrassed by what airs, it isn't really a good reason for Jeff to say HBO are deliberately being disrespectful by showing it, considering they represent the ceremony accurately enough that is.

That's the thing. He seems to want a special status for religion (Jeff-DSA). I'm sure a Wiccan feels TV is disrespectful to their beliefs or American Indians or many other groups. Because you have a "secret" ceremony doesn't make you immune to that ceremony being depicted on television, film, a book, etc. Even if it is disrespectful which could only be based on how accurate they actually are, is this some crime TV that has never been committed before? Nothing on TV is accurate to real life. I get complaining about accuracy but you can forget the "disrespectful" of secret ceremonies business.

 

[KHarvey16]

Lol disrespectful.

 

[Weapxn]

I wish people would turn their skeptical eyes from Mormonism on to all the other faiths, such as Christianity.

Guess what? They're all just as nutty, and started by people that wanted control and money. Why slam Mormons, or hell even Scientoligists, when you are most likely blindly following another religious figure you know nothing about?

There's a large difference between Christianity/Judaism/Islam and Mormons and Scientology. The Church of Latter Day Saints came about in the early-to-mid-1800's, I believe. Scientology was in the 1950's, I think...and by a science fiction writer, at that. While in the end I don't care what a person believes as long as they're not hurting themselves or other people, I see a very, very large difference between religions that have stood the test of time and religions that have popped up within the past 200 years.

As for my personal dislike for the Mormon church:

And as I mentioned earlier ever since Prop 8 out in Cali I've had a particular disdain for a certain set of Mormons.

This.

 

[faceless007]

Hmm, so the same group that spent millions of dollars last year lying to the entire state of California that Prop 8 was somehow about protecting free speech now feels "disrespected" that a TV show with at most a million or two viewers will merely depict one of their ceremonies (they don't even know yet if the show will be accurate or not), because they think somehow they're so special that they get to choose what other people know about their practices.

Yeah, fuck them. This is free speech, bitches.

 

[Terrell]

Ah, that makes sense. That epiphany - tithing is a perpetual series of toll booths on the way to heaven - was one of the reasons I stopped paying it, which led to my ditching the church all together. But I'll get off that soapbox for this particular thread.

Can't wait for the GAF reaction - and reaction in general - to this episode.


I'll show rather than tell. I almost forgot about the goofy clothing (or the "funny bakers' hat" as a brother of mine put it). Quick google:

..........................................................

The more and more I learn about Mormons, the more I decide that Scientology is the least of our problems.
Yes, Mormons of the world, hear me loud and clear: you're making cults look good by comparison.

 

[Shalashaska]

..........................................................

The more and more I learn about Mormons, the more I decide that Scientology is the least of our problems.
Yes, Mormons of the world, hear me loud and clear: you're making cults look good by comparison.

Really?

 

[MrHicks]

how can anyone believe this shit?
i genuinely dont understand this
the whole mormon story is batshit insane...humans have critical/logical thinking brains rights?
this shit has gotta be some kind of childhood indoctrination/brainwash stuff

no logical thinking person reads these stories and goes "THAT MAKES SENSE gonna become mormon"
fucking hell i dont get most religions

 

[Hitokage]

no logical thinking person reads these stories and goes "THAT MAKES SENSE gonna become mormon"

That's why some things are kept secret BEFORE you join.

Although really, if they're doing the current version of the Endowment it's not nearly as unsettling as the pre-1990 version of it, which included the death oaths.

 

[Terrell]

Really?

YEAH. REALLY. When you have accepted documents as official church history as written by a murderer.... yeah, L. Ron may be a lot of things, but murder isn't up there.

 

[legend166]

I wish people would turn their skeptical eyes from Mormonism on to all the other faiths, such as Christianity.

Guess what? They're all just as nutty, and started by people that wanted control and money. Why slam Mormons, or hell even Scientoligists, when you are most likely blindly following another religious figure you know nothing about?

This makes no sense.

You won't get an argument from me that many people use Christianity as a facade for personal wealth (Hi there, megachurches), but you really believe Christianity was started to get money? Because if so, the early Christians did an extremely poor job at it.

I mean, if you're going to start a religion for money, you should DEFINITELY follow this framework:

1. Have the 'leader' consistantly talk about the worthlessness of worldly goods.
2. Have early followers leave their well paying jobs to live lives of poverty.
3. Talk out against the current day leaders and get thrown in jail.
4. Stress that any offerings are completely free will and that no money is necessary to participate in the church.

Definitely do that last one. It's the road to riches. You know how Paul was arrested and put in jail? He lied, he was living in his castle in Galilee. Matthew, the tax collector? He didn't really leave his job to become poor, he just followed Jesus around so he could collect tax off all his followers.

 

[AlteredBeast]

I think some of you guys don't understand the nature of the word sacred to religious people. It is like an image of Allah or Mohammed to a Muslim. Those things are considered highly sinful and wrong. Likewise, the temple ceremonies of Mormon's are not something to be dragged around for the world to see. It isn't ever talked about or detailed outside of a temple and only when a person is deemed worthy to do so.

To show it to the world for cheap entertainment value would be like drawing a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb disguised in his turban. Highly sacreligious and downright mean. Why bully people of faith? Why do things to them to ridicule them? Let sacred things remain sacred and let everyone treat everyone else with respect, please.

 

[Ford Prefect]

You read fiction, don't you? At least this actually happened.

I'm not denying it's interesting, and its relevance to my own personal family history (I'm actually a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith, or so I'm told) makes it even more so, it's just all so anticlimactic and makes me feel kind of dirty to have anything to do with these unwashed simpletons. So I just wonder if I would be better spending my time reading about some truly inspiring Americans, like Emerson or Thoreau. But you're right, the most important thing is that Brodie is a gifted writer, and no matter her subject, the work in and of itself is what's inspiring.

That's why some things are kept secret BEFORE you join.

Although really, if they're doing the current version of the Endowment it's not nearly as unsettling as the pre-1990 version of it, which included the death oaths.

Wow, just glancing over that stuff, I kind of feel really angry that such an innocent and kind person as my mother had to go through that weird shit.

 

[bluemax]

How come the ceremony is so secretive anyway?

Because if you find out about it before you take part in it it's mind boggling enough to make you quit the church.

Honestly when I finally found out through an ex mormon site what went on in the endowment ceremony and how they've changed it over the years, that was probably the final thing that got me to stop worrying about becoming inactive. I just can't believe that the LDS gospel is true after reading about that wackiness.

 

[nyong]

I think some of you guys don't understand the nature of the word sacred to religious people. It is like an image of Allah or Mohammed to a Muslim. Those things are considered highly sinful and wrong. Likewise, the temple ceremonies of Mormon's are not something to be dragged around for the world to see. It isn't ever talked about or detailed outside of a temple and only when a person is deemed worthy to do so.

To show it to the world for cheap entertainment value would be like drawing a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb disguised in his turban. Highly sacreligious and downright mean. Why bully people of faith? Why do things to them to ridicule them? Let sacred things remain sacred and let everyone treat everyone else with respect, please.

Meh.

This is really similar to the outrage surrounding the book "Ceremony" and the author's translation of several Native American traditional stories.

The producers have every right to make whatever movie they want. Yes, I understand the Mormon's argument that the tradition will be (must be) shown out of context. But who cares? Anytime you show another culture's traditions, unless you're an insider of that culture, you are almost certainly missing something.

 

[faceless007]

I think some of you guys don't understand the nature of the word sacred to religious people. It is like an image of Allah or Mohammed to a Muslim. Those things are considered highly sinful and wrong. Likewise, the temple ceremonies of Mormon's are not something to be dragged around for the world to see. It isn't ever talked about or detailed outside of a temple and only when a person is deemed worthy to do so.

To show it to the world for cheap entertainment value would be like drawing a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb disguised in his turban. Highly sacreligious and downright mean. Why bully people of faith? Why do things to them to ridicule them? Let sacred things remain sacred and let everyone treat everyone else with respect, please.

I feel the exact same way about Muslims and images of Muhammed: I'm not bound by their belief system at all, so why should I cater to it? No one has a right to not be offended, and if I want to exercise my free speech in such a way that happens to go against their religious beliefs, tough shit--it's their belief, not mine.

If Mormons believe that they should never describe the sacred ceremonies to others, fine, they have a right to keep secrets if they think it's what their faith tells them to do. But it's out now and no one else is obligated to maintain the same discretion.

Besides, the idea of Mormons complaining about being "bullied" or "ridiculed" by HBO is just laughable considering how they were instrumental in bullying and ridiculing gay people last year. So, again, fuck 'em.

 

[Hitokage]

I think some of you guys don't understand the nature of the word sacred to religious people.

Jesus Christ is "Sacred". Mormon Temple stuff is "Secret". From what the article describes, they only intend to violate what is "Secret" by featuring the ceremony without further commentary.

Although really, it's not my fault it's a situation similar to Scientology's OT3.

 

[Stoney Mason]

I think some of you guys don't understand the nature of the word sacred to religious people. It is like an image of Allah or Mohammed to a Muslim. Those things are considered highly sinful and wrong. Likewise, the temple ceremonies of Mormon's are not something to be dragged around for the world to see. It isn't ever talked about or detailed outside of a temple and only when a person is deemed worthy to do so.

To show it to the world for cheap entertainment value would be like drawing a cartoon of Mohammed with a bomb disguised in his turban. Highly sacreligious and downright mean. Why bully people of faith? Why do things to them to ridicule them? Let sacred things remain sacred and let everyone treat everyone else with respect, please.

In a secular society the only thing that is owed to religion is freedom of worship. Certainly not an adherence to never show "secret" ceremonies. If Mormons wants to have a discussion about unfair or unrepresentative portrayals of them in the media that is a more worthy discussion (Just like any other group). But oh noes secret ceremony being shown just on the basis of that is ridiculous. Just as complaints are about showing Mohammed are on TV. We are a secular society for a reason.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Why bully people of faith?

The Mormon Church and other religions have been using their "faith" as a bludgeon against people they disagree with for quite a while now. The Mormon Church is one of the biggest bullies out there these days.

 

[Dragonflyg1]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

Stop posting stupid shit. Your entire posting history is dumb shit. STOP POSTING DUMB SHIT!

 

[Archaix]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

Yeah, we should all be more respectful of those people who engineer a multi million dollar campaign to steal the rights from thousands of people who did absolutely nothing wrong.

Oh, wait, no we shouldn't. We should tell those people to go fuck themselves and quit whining about being persecuted while they are doing actual damage to lives and not just showing secret handshake bullshit on a cable show. I guess being from a community with low fertility rates, I get respect and fuck off confused easily. If only I worshiped a religion developed by an 1800's con man, then I'd be in much better shape.

 

[Hitokage]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

You forgot high bankruptcy and depression rates.

 

[Big-E]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

High fertility is a plus now? Really?

 

[Tamanon]

Mormons are some of the most upstanding people out there right now. High fertility rates, low crime and strong communities. It's no wonder that tons of Americans (and gafers) hate them.

I'm surprised at the high fertility, because the mormon girl I used to date was HORRIBLE in bed.:lol

 

[Big-E]

I'm surprised at the high fertility, because the mormon girl I used to date was HORRIBLE in bed.:lol

I wouldn't be laughing if I were you, let's just hope this wasn't a recent fuck or else you might be in trouble.

 

[Tamanon]

I wouldn't be laughing if I were you, let's just hope this wasn't a recent fuck or else you might be in trouble.

Eight years ago sir, no problems! And believe me, I would've heard by now.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Anyone know which party I would vote for in America if I wanted a significant curb on immigration? How about an environmentalist party that isn't controlled by leftist commies?

...I'm at my wit's end with the American political system. It's time we replaced our single-selection voting system with a multiple-winner system like the UK has where no vote is a wasted vote. It's time for a truly conservative party to come to the forefront...

Looks about right. It's pretty clear to me that we should ban hip hop from the media. It's having a negative effect on our children which has been proven once again with this topic. Executions for the execs that push this stuff should also be in order.

When is North Dakota's ban going to the Supreme Court? The sooner we get rid of these murder-for-convenience laws the sooner we get rid of the disgusting slippery slope presented by embryonic stem cell research. I am disturbed at the direction this country is going in...

Southern secession can't come soon enough...

I am not blinded by bipartisanship, sorry. I believe in a free market system tempered by Christian morals. Consumerism seems to be the only religion that modern day Americans adhere to.

Religion is already out of the American way of life as it is thanks to leftist commies. IMO, this 15% figure only downplays the widespread moral destruction of America. The USA needs to wake up from this consumerist nightmare before it's too late.

There are a lot of blond/blue-eyed and generally fair-skinned Persians even to this day, guys. The ruling elite from thousands of years ago were white especially (Prince of Persia). Gylenhaal is Semitic/Scandinavian, so he isn't that far off at all. Hollywood is being historically accurate for once.

It's a good Christian movie that pulls no punches against the forces that condemned Jesus. I applaud Mel Gibson for his bravery.

http://www.entertainmentandshowbiz....ies-sherlock-holmes-will-be-gay-2009022811843



God, isn't there a way to stop this shit? Like Doyle's estate suing to stop it? Oh my god.

Liberal-created filth is slowly poisoning even the most moral strongholds of the USA, time to celebrate.

We need more cops like this. Ones who aren't afraid to brutally silence these filthy belligerent criminals.

Criminals scum don't have rights. History has shown over and over again that when you give them a finger, they'll take the whole hand. Cops should be able to draw the line without being persecuted by the liberal holier-than-thou MSM. i.e. people who live in comfortable suburbs and think America is just dandy.

It should be banned everywhere. Who cares whether it's polluting the moral climate of one state a little faster than another; o rite, they're red states!...

If you liberals didn't want us, then you shouldn't have sent your immigrant army after us when we lawfully seceded.

.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

I wish people would turn their skeptical eyes from Mormonism on to all the other faiths, such as Christianity.

Guess what? They're all just as nutty, and started by people that wanted control and money. Why slam Mormons, or hell even Scientoligists, when you are most likely blindly following another religious figure you know nothing about?

Man, I wish Iapetus was here...this HAS to be one of 'those' cliches!

Also, I don't think a lot of you understand what the word "disrespectful" means.

 

[Big-E]

.

I thought his fertility comment was a shot at the Mexicans and now I know for sure that it was. Thanks Stoney.