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[Dragonflyg1]

I thought his fertility comment was a shot at the Mexicans and now I know for sure that it was. Thanks Stoney.

No, it wasn't a shot at anybody. I simply think that those able to have and properly raise children should have children. Those unable to do so should focus on bettering themselves before anything.

 

[FuturusX]

No, it wasn't a shot at anybody. I simply think that those able to have and properly raise children should have children. Those unable to do so should focus on bettering themselves before anything.

Good luck with the "bettering" yourself thing...you have a long way to go.

 

[SreyB]

You forgot high bankruptcy and depression rates.

Where are you getting your information from? This seems like a really odd fact to know...

 

[Hitokage]

Where are you getting your information from? This seems like a really odd fact to know...

To be fair, it's the state of Utah that has those high rates, not mormons specifically.

 

[Azih]

You say *one* tiny thing about a Jew or a Muslim's faith

You're kidding right?

 

[SreyB]

To be fair, it's the state of Utah that has those high rates, not mormons specifically.

So-- quick Google searches? Looking at your post history you know some really odd facts.

 

[Mooreberg]

This has been my favorite show of the year so far and for me it has been even better than the first two seasons. This is the first time I've heard of any sort of specific widespread complaint. Surely they've done something to piss people off prior to this, right? I'm not Mormon so I don't know any of the finer points but they seemed to be pretty respectful in portraying the faith.

 

[Barrett2]

As another side note, I've been reading Fawn Brodie's biography (non-hagiographic, of course) of Joseph Smith, and it's pretty neat. She's a great writer, but I can't help but think that I might be better spending my time (it's a big book; I'm a slow reader) reading about an original thinker, or someone who actually did something worthwhile and important with his life...

I always wanted to read Fawn Brodie's book, but I ran out of religious-book-reading-steam before I got to it.

A few other interesting books include Joseph Smith and the Origins of Mormonism; its written by an active Mormon guy who is also a professor of history at Columbia. Its very short and talks a lot about the immediate Smith family, Hyrum, etc. Though, if you're already plowing through the Brodie book, this will probably be regurgitating a lot of the same info, depending on how far you are.

Mormon America is comprehensive, it was written by Time Magazine writers who did a cover story on Mormons in the 90s. It has a lot of info and is a quick read.

If you really want the interesting shit, read The Mormon Heirarchy: Origins of Power by Michael Quinn. He is a former BYU History professor and was one of the intellectual giants in the LDS Church, but they finally banished him because he wouldn't censor his research, (they told people they booted him because he's gay, but thats just the cover up). This is a beastly and comprehensive book, but the information is incredible.

 

[Tamanon]

So-- quick Google searches? Looking at your post history you know some really odd facts.

I'm pretty sure he's Mormon or ex-Mormon, he's had a little bit more time doing research on this stuff and seeing the common arguments.

 

[theBishop]

How can Barb do anything in the temple? She's a polygamist. I thought a Bishop needs to meet with anyone before they're given a pass. That was definitely true of my ex-girlfriend. Can adults go any time?

 

[Shalashaska]

YEAH. REALLY. When you have accepted documents as official church history as written by a murderer.... yeah, L. Ron may be a lot of things, but murder isn't up there.

You're going to compare an infiltration of government and other agencies on a wide basis to a man who was one of the best forgers in history?

And I'm pretty sure you've heard of Lisa McPherson. That's far different than someone not part of a church commiting murder to try cover up what he did (and he wasn't a murderer when he was pawning off those documents).

 

[Barrett2]

How can Barb do anything in the temple? She's a polygamist. I thought a Bishop needs to meet with anyone before they're given a pass. That was definitely true of my ex-girlfriend. Can adults go any time?

You have an interview with your clergy to make sure you are following the rules, then they give you a pass which is good for two years. I don't watch the show, but I presume that the family hides their polygamy just enough that they can sort-of navigate the LDS system. I swear, I need HBO, all I am stuck with is Howie-Do-it. -_-

 

[platypotamus]

I'm pretty sure he's Mormon or ex-Mormon, he's had a little bit more time doing research on this stuff and seeing the common arguments.

My money is on "I heard it on This American Life on NPR"

 

[GhaleonEB]

You forgot high bankruptcy and depression rates.

And high divorce rates. And boy do they love their porn. It's nothing less than delightful that Utah is the biggest consumer of online porn per capita in the US.

 

[Hitokage]

lawblob: Also worth reading is Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery.

My money is on "I heard it on This American Life on NPR"

Sorry to disappoint you then. No, Tamanon is closer to the mark as I was raised a devout mormon for the first 19 years of my life then dismantled it all leaving me in my current non-religious state. I've done a lot of research, some original, and I also keep tabs on both the mormon and ex-mormon communities whenever I get bored enough.

 

[Barrett2]

lawblob: Also worth reading is Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery.

I think I might have that one but never got around to reading it. I tell myself I will start reading religious books again, but who knows. If I could get back all the cash I spent at Deseret Books and Barnes & Noble on this stuff, id' be sitting on a tropical island right now.

 

[theBishop]

You have an interview with your clergy to make sure you are following the rules, then they give you a pass which is good for two years. I don't watch the show, but I presume that the family hides their polygamy just enough that they can sort-of navigate the LDS system. I swear, I need HBO, all I am stuck with is Howie-Do-it. -_-

Maybe, but she doesn't go to her church. The family is the church, with the husband as the priest of the household. So if she got a pass from the bishop, she either lied to him or he didn't ask enough questions.

 

[platypotamus]

lawblob: Also worth reading is Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith by Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery.

Sorry to disappoint you then. No, Tamanon is closer to the mark as I was raised a devout mormon for the first 19 years of my life then dismantled it all leaving me in my current non-religious state. I've done a lot of research, some original, and I also keep tabs on both the mormon and ex-mormon communities whenever I get bored enough.

I knew you were an ex-mormon, I just figured you might be able to use this as an opportunity to pimp your favorite show again

 

[Barrett2]

Maybe, but she doesn't go to her church. The family is the church, with the husband as the priest of the household. So if she got a pass from the bishop, she either lied to him or he didn't ask enough questions.

Hmm, maybe in the show they have stolen or fabricated recommends, or they have a rogue bishop... but im' guessing she just lies to the Bishop to get it. That wouldn't be too hard, hell, I was a freaking LDS Missionary for two years, the second year I was even supervising 15 other missionaries, and I was an atheist basically the entire time.

 

[Hitokage]

I think I might have that one but never got around to reading it. If I could get back all the cash I spent at Deseret Books and Barnes & Noble on this crap, id' be sitting on a tropical island right now.

I'm rather glad I used a library copy of "One Nation Under Gods" by Richard Abanes. Not boring by any means, but it's not entirely interested in telling history as much as telling a good story, particularly because the author is of the "leave mormonism, join christianity" slant. Although I hear the weirder stuff is what he got right. Regardless, Mark Twain's chapter on his visit to Utah in Roughing It is both more entertaining and much more useful.

Another book I should mention is An Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, who used to work in the Church Education System. Palmer is who I think of when considering how ronito looks at the church.

I knew you were an ex-mormon, I just figured you might be able to use this as an opportunity to pimp your favorite show again

If they ever do a "The Giant Pool of Money" style episode on mormon history, I'll let you know.

 

[Barrett2]

Another book I should mention is An Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, who used to work in the Church Education System. Palmer is who I think of when considering how ronito looks at the church.

I have heard really good things about Palmer's book. I really do want to read that one. Didn't he get excommunicated for it?

I actually know two people who have lost their testimony in the last year from reading Palmer's book; my grandpa, and a fellow grad student. I hope he likes his Hell nice and toasty, because he is leading the flock astray!

 

[Hitokage]

Disfellowshipped, according to wiki.

 

[theBishop]

Hmm, maybe in the show they have stolen or fabricated recommends, or they have a rogue bishop... but im' guessing she just lies to the Bishop to get it. That wouldn't be too hard, hell, I was a freaking LDS Missionary for two years, the second year I was even supervising 15 other missionaries, and I was an atheist basically the entire time.

Hmm... that doesn't sound like her character to me. Maybe she just begs, this season has been pretty traumatic for her.

PS: I hope you didn't assist in anyone's conversion while you were an atheist.... that's kinda screwed up.

 

[Barrett2]

Hmm... that doesn't sound like her character to me. Maybe she just begs, this season has been pretty traumatic for her.

PS: I hope you didn't assist in anyone's conversion while you were an atheist.... that's kinda screwed up.

I wasn't really a full-on atheist while on my mission, I had atheistic beliefs, but I still wanted to believe the LDS Church was true. I did have a policy that I wouldn't lie to prospective members, the people we taught. I refused to give bullshit answers, so I had to shrug my shoulders in a lot of discussions and not really give an answer. For the most part, though, church investigators were clueless. Most of them converted for social or emotional reasons, almost nobody converts for legit intellectual reasons, or if they do, they are pretty flimsy, since it is so easy to historically disprove LDS claims.

 

[theBishop]

I wasn't really a full-on atheist while on my mission, I had atheistic beliefs, but I still wanted to believe the LDS Church was true. I did have a policy that I wouldn't lie to prospective members, the people we taught. I refused to give bullshit answers, so I had to shrug my shoulders in a lot of discussions and not really give an answer. For the most part, though, church investigators were clueless. Most of them converted for social or emotional reasons, almost nobody converts for legit intellectual reasons, or if they do, they are pretty flimsy, since it is so easy to historically disprove LDS claims.

It's really hard to imagine LDS surviving the information age. Mainstream Christianity is weak enough as it is without adding all kinds of other absurd baggage on top.

 

[SetUhatU]

Good on Big Love to show this ceremony.

I went through the temple several times and never felt further from God. Completely opposite of what I was expecting. And my expectations were set from people who had been there. It will be good for the world to visualize exactly what takes place in there. Terrible experience.

 

[Enojado]

Prepare to get creeped out.

I almost bolted from the room when I got my endowments. It remains one of the most uncomfortable, awkward experiences of my life. I only did it twice - the first time, and then many years later with my wife's family. I haven't been back to the temple since.

Most religious ceremonies are kind of creepy to me, but this was in a whole other level. The chanting, the gestures, the tokens, the touching. AAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Agreed. I went through (haven't been back in years and don't participate in the mormon church anymore) and was underwhelmed by the experience. Mormons talk about the endowment ceremony in hushed, reverent tones as if it were some pinnacle of religious experience. Too bad it isn't.

It's no wonder they took out the gestures from the ceremony (you made a gesture such as slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself as a representation of the penalty you would receive if you revealed the information given to you in the endowment).

I find it ironic that Mormons are up in arms over the disrespect shown to their temple ceremony when they've gone to great lengths to disrespect and marginalize the gay community.

 

[theBishop]

Agreed. I went through (haven't been back in years and don't participate in the mormon church anymore) and was underwhelmed by the experience. Mormons talk about the endowment ceremony in hushed, reverent tones as if it were some pinnacle of religious experience. Too bad it isn't.

It's no wonder they took out the gestures from the ceremony (you made a gesture such as slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself as a representation of the penalty you would receive if you revealed the information given to you in the endowment).

I find it ironic that Mormons are up in arms over the disrespect shown to their temple ceremony when they've gone to great lengths to disrespect and marginalize the gay community.

A lot of those goofy rituals are based on Freemasonry, right? I read Smith was smitten by that stuff.

 

[Ford Prefect]

It's really hard to imagine LDS surviving the information age. Mainstream Christianity is weak enough as it is without adding all kinds of other absurd baggage on top.

The church (as do most churches) survives by willful ignorance. Members regard intellectual discussion of sacred events and church history as temptation by the devil. It's the same thing as sects of Christianity that insist the world 6000 years old and that Noah's Ark is a possible scenario. It's really sad, and I wonder how hard I'll try to turn my family over the next few decades. On one hand, they're happy as they are, but on the other, they're certainly not better off. As an enlightened individual, is it my duty to spread reason and intelligence through my family, for the sake of humanity? (of course, they ask themselves the exact same thing from their side of view)

 

[FiRez]

is sad that people gets so serious about silly things like this, religion simply doesn't deserves the respects that it gets

 

[ronito]

The church (as do most churches) survives by willful ignorance. Members regard intellectual discussion of sacred events and church history as temptation by the devil.

TROLL!!

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

The church (as do most churches) survives by willful ignorance. Members regard intellectual discussion of sacred events and church history as temptation by the devil. It's the same thing as sects of Christianity that insist the world 6000 years old and that Noah's Ark is a possible scenario. It's really sad, and I wonder how hard I'll try to turn my family over the next few decades. On one hand, they're happy as they are, but on the other, they're certainly not better off. As an enlightened individual, is it my duty to spread reason and intelligence through my family, for the sake of humanity? (of course, they ask themselves the exact same thing from their side of view)

Yes, it's your mission to convert the savages to enlightenment.

 

[Hitokage]

It's really sad, and I wonder how hard I'll try to turn my family over the next few decades.

Direct confrontation is counterproductive, and in my view counterproductivity is a sin. They'll come out when they're ready to come out. All you can do is help things along should that happen.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Direct confrontation is counterproductive, and in my view counterproductivity is a sin. They'll come out when they're ready to come out. All you can do is help things along should that happen.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I've avoided it thus far. I'm guessing the only hope lies with my several younger brothers... it's almost kind of fun guessing which ones are thinkers and which ones will be mormans fo life (even better, which ones are gay!).

 

[Enojado]

A lot of those goofy rituals are based on Freemasonry, right? I read Smith was smitten by that stuff.

Yes, Smith "revealed" the temple ceremonies shortly after joining masonry. The similarities are shocking - from the apron used to the symbols on mormon garments. I may be wrong but Mormons believe the temple ceremony is the pure version of the corrupted version that masons use.

I find it odd that in order to get into heaven one must know the correct secret handshakes and code words/phrases. It's almost like a type of secret combination which in Mormon doctrine is considered of the devil.

From what I've heard the temple ceremony is shown in Big Love as part of a flash back. I don't watch the series but I've heard the main character pictured (Barb?) was once a true mormon in the show and left it to practice a polygamous lifestyle. So, showing it in the context of a flashback may be a vehicle to show what was given up/past regrets, etc.

 

[Enojado]

is sad that people gets so serious about silly things like this, religion simply doesn't deserves the respects that it gets

Well, unfortunately, religion can be so all pervasive and intrusive into people's lives that it ends up being taken seriously.

When I came out to my parents I was no longer a practicing mormon (I HATE using the phrase "inactive") there was some serious shit that went down. It's like the world was ending and my parents just couldn't understand how I could forsake the truth and ignore my testimony. Now, according to them, my salvation is in jeopardy, blah blah blah.

Sadly, I can never truly explain to them why I am where I am at. It just doesn't work with those that refuse to look past their faith at all the contradictory evidence. Try telling a person that has devoted their life to a religion based on warm and fuzzy feelings that those feelings are meaningless. Yeah, doesn't work too well.

 

[RiZ III]

You say *one* tiny thing about a Jew or a Muslim's faith and bam, instant ban. However, when it comes to Christianity, HAVE AT IT!

:lol Dude, have you read any religious thread on gaf?? They're all full of hate:lol There is a ton of trolling that goes unbanned. All religions are hated equally on gaf. Aside from Scientology maybe, that gets more hate.

 

[Hitokage]

I find it odd that in order to get into heaven one must know the correct secret handshakes and code words/phrases. It's almost like a type of secret combination which in Mormon doctrine is considered of the devil.

The Book of Mormon comes from a more contemporary early 19th Century mindset than its followup canon. Specifically, it was written when suspicions of organizations like Freemasonry were running high, but later Smith decided it was really fucking cool.

 

[shattyboombatty]

weird

 

[criesofthepast]

Bill hendrickson is my hero and you should all be watching Big Love. Best show on television.

 

[theBishop]

This right here is why GAF is full of some of the most hypocritical and vile people you'll ever come across. You say *one* tiny thing about a Jew or a Muslim's faith and bam, instant ban. However, when it comes to Christianity, HAVE AT IT!

#1: Michael Savage made this exact point last night. Well, not about GAF. :lol

#2: LDS is not Christianity. I don't care about defending Christianity, but they're not the same thing. The Jesus of LDS is not the Jesus of mainstream protestant or Catholic churches.

 

[ronito]

The Jesus of LDS is not the Jesus of mainstream protestant or Catholic churches.

Hey, evangelicals get their supply side Jesus, Mormons can get their soft jazz Jesus.

 

[theBishop]

Hey, evangelicals get their supply side Jesus, Mormons can get their soft jazz Jesus.

Haha. I'm not going to defend the gross inconsistency in "normal" Christians. But they're all talking about the same guy who was born of a virgin in Bethlehem, lived in the desert, acted afool, got executed, flew up to heaven.

The Jesus mormons follow is a different cat.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The Jesus mormons follow is a different cat.

What are the differences? I've always seen Mormon and mainstream Christianity views on Christ to be very similar, it's everything around that figure that's different. Maybe I'm just ignorant since I've never poked around other versions too closely.

 

[Barrett2]

Hey, evangelicals get their supply side Jesus, Mormons can get their soft jazz Jesus.

I prefer my Ruby Ridge Jesus.

 

[ronito]

Haha. I'm not going to defend the gross inconsistency in "normal" Christians. But they're all talking about the same guy who was born of a virgin in Bethlehem, lived in the desert, acted afool, got executed, flew up to heaven.

The Jesus mormons follow is a different cat.

Mormons believe all that, he just had a prequel and sequel.

 

[riskVSreward]

Hey, evangelicals get their supply side Jesus, Mormons can get their soft jazz Jesus.

:lol :lol I should wander out in to the woods one day and come up with my own type of Jesus. Soft Jazz Jesus does sound ace though.

 

[theBishop]

What are the differences? I've always seen Mormon and mainstream Christianity views on Christ to be very similar, it's everything around that figure that's different. Maybe I'm just ignorant since I've never poked around other versions too closely.

- Mormons don't believe (to their credit imo) in the trinity. So Jesus is literally the son of God (Eloheim), not Yahweh in human form.

- The Book of Mormon says Jesus was born in Jerusalem, the Christian bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

- Mormons say Jesus had wives. In the bible, he dies a bachelor.

- Mormons say you have to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet to be saved. Generally protestant Christians believe faith in Jesus is enough to be saved. Catholics believe faith plus good deeds are required to be saved.

- Mormons say Jesus will return to Missouri. Christians say Jesus will return to Jerusalem.

- Mormons say Jesus took a pit stop in the USA to preach to the Indians. Christians didn't know about the USA at the time the bible was written.

- Mormons don't pray to Jesus. Protestants do. Catholics do, plus a bunch of other guys and gals.

 

[Timedog]

So I think I might have been friends with a kid in a polygamist family. The dad was only there half the time, and there were a couple of his sisters that I barely ever saw, and when I did see them the dad was there. Most of the siblings that I knew about didn't have rooms in the house. Plus all the kids looked completely different. I always thought it was weird when I was a kid but never suspected polygamy, I didn't even know what polygamy was.

And yeah, they were mormons.

OH, and I got taken to some weird ceremony where we watched a projector of some satellite feed or something of some dudes that were dressed like the pope doing talking for like 5 hours and I guess it was a once a year thing where they go and just pray and watch these dudes for like 5 hours. What the fuck was that?

 

[Enojado]

- Mormons don't believe (to their credit imo) in the trinity. So Jesus is literally the son of God (Eloheim), not Yahweh in human form.

- The Book of Mormon says Jesus was born in Jerusalem, the Christian bible says Jesus was born in Bethlehem.

- Mormons say Jesus had wives. In the bible, he dies a bachelor.

- Mormons say you have to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet to be saved. Generally protestant Christians believe faith in Jesus is enough to be saved. Catholics believe faith plus good deeds are required to be saved.

- Mormons say Jesus will return to Missouri. Christians say Jesus will return to Jerusalem.

- Mormons say Jesus took a pit stop in the USA to preach to the Indians. Christians didn't know about the USA at the time the bible was written.

- Mormons don't pray to Jesus. Protestants do. Catholics do, plus a bunch of other guys and gals.

Not trying to defend Mormon beliefs, but I'll add some additional info for context (I believe this is correct but it's from my memory so someone here who knows/remembers more please feel free to correct me)

- Yes, along with accepting Jesus, applying his atonement to cleanse your sins, enduring to the end (whatever that means), having faith, etc Mormons must also believe in Joseph Smith to be saved (and by "saved" I mean reach the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom where they will most likely have polygamous wives, eventually reach godhood, and start the whole cycle of populating planets, etc on their own turf). If I remember correctly, Joseph Smith will be one of the judges of people born during these later times

- Yes, Mormons also believe Jesus will make a stop in Missouri but also believe the big last battle will be in Jerusalem (all that revelations type stuff). If I'm remembering correctly Jesus will come to Missouri and select people will be privy to this. There, some type of exchange happens (keys of the dispensation returned to Adam or something like that is the phraseology used I believe). I believe it's all in preparation for the big and last day when the shit really hits the fan.

I think what gets some chrisitians all fired up is the mormon belief that jesus and satan were brothers in what mormons call the preexistence.