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[Shawn]

first off i will say that image quality is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to me.

okay, i've been looking at some nice-looking 26-30-inch CRT HDTVs (Toshiba, Samsung, Sony, and a few others i think) to buy in the future. i will be using this future tv specifically to play my next-generation console of choice.

if i get xbox 360 i will be using component. for playstation 3 i will be using hdmi.

i've been reading a thread about hdtv's, and i keep hearing this word "upconversion".

i'm gonna take a guess here and say that it means the TV takes the video signal from the source --say Xbox 360 -- and "does something" to it so that it "displays" at 720p or 1080i.

well, to me that BULLSH*T.

i don't want the tv to do ANYTHING to the signal. all i ask is that the tv displays a TRUE, PRUE 720p or 1080i signal.

the keywords here are "TRUE" and "PURE".

what's the point of buying a brand-new hdtv only to have it manipulate the video signal to a FAKE, PHONY 720p/7080i. that makes me VERY uncomfortable, and i do not want a tv that "converts" or "upconverts" anything!

please tell me there are other people here who feel the same way.

can someone please tell me there are sub-$1,000 26-30-inch hdtvs out there that don't do the convert/upconvert bullsh*t?

thanks.

 

[AtomicShroom]

Tvs with fixed pixel displays (ie. LCDs) can only display one native resolution. So if a TV only does 1080i, if you feed it a 720p signal, it will take it and upconvert it to display it at 1080i. I'm being told the "conversion" is unnoticeable.

 

[Shompola]

You are buying a CRT set, it should do 720P and 1080i natively.

 

[quin]

i bet you couldn't even tell the difference

 

[borghe]

many newer CRT sets will do 720p and 1080i natively (though not most).

all fixed pixel sets will have to sideconvert (not upconvert) because they physically don't have the pixels to display the other resolution natively.

and to bitch about this now is just dumb. this has only been around for umm... like 8 years now. :| at this point it's like bitching that DVDs only hold 8.5GB max per side. It's just the way it is.

 

[Deg]

It depends. See how they convert as some will enhance, some will be subtle(cant or barely tell) and some will look bad.

 

[Leatherface]

The key here is to find a set that does the desired resolutions natively. Do some shopping around and I'm sure you'll find what your looking for. For me 720p will be a must in any future set.

 

[vatstep]

You are buying a CRT set, it should do 720P and 1080i natively.

Not many 26-30" CRTs do 720p natively. At least not the ones available now. They'll convert it to 1080i. Still, I can't tell the difference.

If you're that concerned with image quality and conversion, you shouldn't buy a TV anytime soon. As you probably know, PS3 will be able to display at 1080p, which I don't think is going to be offered by any CRTs in the near future, especially sets that small. Either way, it might be best to wait and see how many games will actually support 1080p (my guess is a very small number, if any at all early-on). High def DVDs will, though, so it's a good idea to use HDMI to avoid any hurdles.

 

[Shawn]

You are buying a CRT set, it should do 720P and 1080i natively.

now THAT'S what i like to hear, but is that statement true across the board? for example, will the $600.00 Toshiba 26-inch widescreen hdtv with hdmi input accept a 720p and/or 1080i signal NATIVELY???

if i connect xbox 360 or ps3 to it, will i have to worry about the tv converting/upconverting the video signal?

sorry if i sound redundant. i'm just trying to learn.

edit:

thanks for the responses, guys. i have more questions, but i'll have to ask them later on.

 

[borghe]

no, most CRT sets at this time won't do 720p natively. to do 1080i natively a set only needs to scan 540 lines of resolution. to do 720p it needs to scan, well, 720 lines of resolution.

It is starting out on projection sets and slowly now making its way to direct view sets. but you will definitely need to research to find a set that does this. and expect to pay a premium on it.

 

[vatstep]

Regardless of which Toshiba set you're thinking of, the 26HF84 or 26HF85, it won't do 720p natively. It will upconvert it to 1080i. Those TVs are pretty much crap anyways. They're manufactured by Orion and sold with the Toshiba name, and a lot of people have had issues with them.

 

[sonycowboy]

no, most CRT sets at this time won't do 720p natively. to do 1080i natively a set only needs to scan 540 lines of resolution. to do 720p it needs to scan, well, 720 lines of resolution.

a 1080i screen still needs to have 1080 lines of resolution. It only needs to draw 540 at one time, but it still draws 1080 lines every <x> number of times per second.

Also, can anyone explain how a set will upconvert a 720p image to 1080, if the set can only handle 1080i? If only 540 lines are drawn at a time, then isn't it really downconverting it to 540p or does it take some of the frames and insert them into the alternate scan lines?

 

[mrklaw]

CRTs look great when properly set up. Contrast and black levels cannot be beaten. But as mentioned, pretty much none do 720p native - its just too many lines.

Unfortunately, 720p is exactly the resolution you'll want if you put a lot of emphasis on next gen gaming. Both X360 and PS3 are likely to use that as the basic resolution in all games.

So to get the most 'accurate' image, you'll need an LCD screen, or a DLP/LCD rear projection set. one with 1280x720 resolution.

Now, image quality is subjective. It may be that a less 'accurate' CRT set will look better with a 720p feed to your eyes, simply because of the contrast or black levels. The only way to know is to try them out.

 

[Shogmaster]

I'm convinced that NO CRT HDTV IN THE MARKET RIGHT NOW 26" AND OVER IN SIZE DOES 720P AND 1080i NATIVELY.

Let that sink in. The only way to get true 720p is if you buy a computer CRT, and biggest you'll find is the 24" Sony AG widescreen, and that's IF you can still find it for sale. Even in computer space CRTs are dissapearing.

There was one 30" CRT HDTV that did 720p (Princeton AF3.0HD), but they no longer make it, and you won't find used ones on sale ANYWHERE.

You can still buy plenty of CRT "direct view" HDTVs at either 26", 30", or 34" in size (just helped my parents buy a 34" one), but most would display 720p (1280x720) and 1080i (1920x1080i) downsampled to 800x480 or 800x540. Maybe even 853x480/540 in some cases. And I'm speculating here, but the Sony Superfine pitch models (such as the new XBR960 - probably the best 34" CRT HDTVs in market right now) I think is downsampling 720p and 1080i to somewhere in the region of 960x480/540, even though the tube is physically able to display 1400x790 (I believe the internal circuitry isn't able to handle the bandwidth).

edit: OOPS! I meant 26" instead of 24"

 

[mrklaw]

a 1080i screen still needs to have 1080 lines of resolution. It only needs to draw 540 at one time, but it still draws 1080 lines every <x> number of times per second.

Yes, but as its a CRT, it doesn't really have any lines, as such. Its simply drawing lines on the back of the tube. Basically HD-CRTs are 540p sets.


Are there any TVs that can actually display both 720p and 1080i natively? I guess only really expensive 1080 line LCD screens?

CRTs will display 1080i natively, but convert 720p to either 540p, or 1080i (for games with discrete frames, you'd be better off with 540p, but thats not a huge jump from 480p).

LCDs will display 720p natively, but convert 1080i. I don't really know how, but I'd think they'd have to downsample each 540 field to 360, then combine them to create one 720i image. LCD being progressive naturally you'd get no flicker.

You can still buy plenty of CRT "direct view" HDTVs at either 24", 30", or 34" in size (just helped my parents buy a 34" one), but most would display 720p (1280x720) and 1080i (1920x1080i) downsampled to 800x480 or 800x540. Maybe even 853x480/540 in some cases.

Shall we revisit the Nintendo non-HD thread again? If what you say is true, then HD sets are little better than 480p sets, and the benefit won't be obvious (and Nintendo might have made the right choice)

 

[xsarien]

They're manufactured by Orion and sold with the Toshiba name, and a lot of people have had issues with them.

And that's when the shrill voice of avsforum.com came waltzing into the thread.

I've got the 85. For a $500 26" widescreen, it's not bad at all. About the only issue I have is that my damned cable box from Comcast doesn't have an S-Video output. But given how much TV I actually watch (as opposed to DVDs and games), I'm not going to whine that I'm only getting a 480i signal for the fucking Daily Show.

Everything else is peachy, and given that it still has plenty of Toshiba technologies in it - and is being sold with their name (and presumably, reputation) on the set, there's very likely some modicum of oversight. And you know what? The picture quality on the component inputs is pretty damned amazing. Shrek in particular looks like a whole new movie.

So yeah, it (allegedly) upconverts any 720p signal to 1080i (and 480i/p to 540p). So do plenty of other sets. Maybe I'm just not anal enough to care about it. All I wanted/needed was an HD-ready, widescreen for a spot where there wasn't a lot of room to work with. For that purpose, it's fine.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I'm convinced that NO CRT HDTV IN THE MARKET RIGHT NOW 24" AND OVER IN SIZE DOES 720P AND 1080i NATIVELY.

Dunno about some of the stuff Shog is saying - the superfine pitch info seems a bit loose - but this statement definitely appears to be the case, folks. Even PC CRT can suffer fuzziness from inability to drive all of the lines needed.

Unless LCOS or something better starts giving a winning smile to consumers I might just end up going for Rear-LCDP/3LCD at some point. I need to look at some D-ILA sets but I don't seem to be immune to the color wheel stuff.

 

[joaomgcd]

On a related note, how come there are so many 1280/768 resolution wide-screen TVs? That's a 15:9 ratio and not the regular wide-screen 16:9 ratio.. :/ Everything looks a bit stretched in those.

 

[Stinkles]

Man, Shawn is REALLY angry at the TV he doesn't have yet.

 

[mrklaw]

On a related note, how come there are so many 1280/768 resolution wide-screen TVs? That's a 15:9 ratio and not the regular wide-screen 16:9 ratio.. :/ Everything looks a bit stretched in those.

because they are PC display derived.

Most good ones have a 16:9 mode that uses 1280x720, leaving a few pixels black top and bottom. Some don't like that but its the same size as if you'd bought a 16:9 set.

 

[Shogmaster]

the superfine pitch info seems a bit loose

Yeah, like I said, specualtion on my part. There is absolutely no official Sony documentation available about what the Superfine tube can actually display, so I did some guesstimating.

I came up with 960x540 because that's 1920x1080 divided by 2. The 1400x790 is partly a guess too (the 790 part) since the only concrete info is that the horizontal resolution is high as 1400 is from a ZDNet article. I just did a rough 16:9 calc to 1400 to get 790.

The fact that the tube is called XBR960 and I'm saying it might do 960x540 is purely coincidental on my part.

 

[3rdman]

Man, Shawn is REALLY angry at the TV he doesn't have yet.

LOL...it does sound like that, doesn't it. Shawn, one point I'd like to make (and perhaps someone else could confirm it) is that the X360 will output 720p or 1080i regardless of game. Upconversion will be handled internally so your TV doesn't have to.

This is (from my understanding) done on the video output chip which is seperate from the GPU. It is also the reason that there is no DVI output on the 360...its analog.

 

[Mrbob]

first off i will say that image quality is ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL to me.

okay, i've been looking at some nice-looking 26-30-inch CRT HDTVs (Toshiba, Samsung, Sony, and a few others i think) to buy in the future. i will be using this future tv specifically to play my next-generation console of choice.

if i get xbox 360 i will be using component. for playstation 3 i will be using hdmi.

i've been reading a thread about hdtv's, and i keep hearing this word "upconversion".

i'm gonna take a guess here and say that it means the TV takes the video signal from the source --say Xbox 360 -- and "does something" to it so that it "displays" at 720p or 1080i.

well, to me that BULLSH*T.

i don't want the tv to do ANYTHING to the signal. all i ask is that the tv displays a TRUE, PRUE 720p or 1080i signal.

the keywords here are "TRUE" and "PURE".

what's the point of buying a brand-new hdtv only to have it manipulate the video signal to a FAKE, PHONY 720p/7080i. that makes me VERY uncomfortable, and i do not want a tv that "converts" or "upconverts" anything!

please tell me there are other people here who feel the same way.

can someone please tell me there are sub-$1,000 26-30-inch hdtvs out there that don't do the convert/upconvert bullsh*t?

thanks.

You got a couple options:

1) Buy the Sony 30XS955. It isn't exactly what you want, but it is a 30" widescreen set that'll give you the best possible picture. It doesn't display at 720P, but it renders the picture internally at 720P and outputs it at 1080I. And on a 30" set, you aren't going to notice the difference. It'll give you native 1080I support.

2) Buy a DLP set. These sets output at true 720P resolution. But it converts everything to 720P. Including 1080I sources. I guess you could say it downconverts a little. But you'll get your gaming fix at the native resolution (720P for PS3 and X360). LCD rear projection sets actually output at 768P but Sony has a set coming out this fall outputtin gat 720P.

3) Wait for a 1080P set which are coming this fall. I wouldn't do that though. Unless you want to drop $4000+ dollars down on a set. Sony may 'support' 1080P, but it won't become prevelant until a couple years down the road. Also, from what I've read, you need a big set (56"+) to tell the difference between 720P and 1080P.

4) X360 is going to output the signal to the TV based on what you have. If it is 1080I X360 is going to do the conversion internally from the 720P source and give you a 1080I picture.

Depending on what I want to spend, I'm leaning towards either the Sony 34XS955 Tube set or a Mitsubishi 52" DLP set. The difference in price is about 800-1000 bucks depending on where you buy one, so that is a consideration for me.

 

[Nerevar]

LOL...it does sound like that, doesn't it. Shawn, one point I'd like to make (and perhaps someone else could confirm it) is that the X360 will output 720p or 1080i regardless of game. Upconversion will be handled internally so your TV doesn't have to.

This is (from my understanding) done on the video output chip which is seperate from the GPU. It is also the reason that there is no DVI output on the 360...its analog.

bingo. Don't worry about upconversion / downconversion / sideconversion for next-gen consoles. It will all be handled internally by the console's scaler. You select whatever resolution your TV displays best (480i / 480p / 720p / 1080i / 1080p (maybe, only for PS3)) and the console will scale the image so that's what is output. Don't worry about it.

 

[bill0527]

Unless you're willing to lay down 2k+ for a DLP or LCD, you're not going to get anything that does 720p natively.

I've never seen a CRT that will do a native 720p signal. Most of the newer CRTs will upconvert 720p to 1080i, but some of the older ones won't accept a 720p signal at all. Same thing with rear-projection HDTVs.

And before you really get bent out of shape, you should know that unless you eat 20 pounds of carrots per day and have eyes better than an eagle, you will not notice the difference at all in the upconversion.

 

[Shogmaster]

THERE'S SOME SERIOUS MISUNDERSTANDINGS IN THIS THREAD:

It's not upconversion, it's down conversion.

1280x720 or 1920x1080 shown on 800x480/540 or 960x540 is down conversion/sampling. This is MUCH better than upconversion/sampling!

Buying 1080p native (1920x1080) HDTV and showing 720P (1280x720) games on it would use 1.5X upconversion/upsampling, and that would introduce the ugly interpolation. This is bad.

So the lesson is, even though CRT HDTVs won't display 720P natively, it will look great because it will be down converting/sampling from 720P/1080i signals.

 

[vatstep]

And that's when the shrill voice of avsforum.com came waltzing into the thread.

Haha, I know, they like to obsess about it over there. I'm not some anti-Toshiba crusader, I just think people should be aware of things like this (things like spending $600 on a product branded with someone else's name). It's good that you haven't had any issues, though.

And you should look into swapping that box out for another one, even if you don't watch a lot of TV. I'm guessing it's the DCT2244/2224. I used to have the same one until I brought it down to my office and swapped it out for S-Video version. They don't charge you any more for it. It makes a big difference, especially with the on-screen menus. You should at least do that, since you're not getting any HD channels (unless you're tuning in over the air).

 

[xsarien]

Haha, I know, they like to obsess about it over there. I'm not some anti-Toshiba crusader, I just think people should be aware of things like this (things like spending $600 on a product branded with someone else's name). It's good that you haven't had any issues, though.

It's more than just an obsession over there. A good many products aren't made in the home country, let alone any kind of main factory. Volkswagen pumps quite a few cars out of Mexico, the big Japanese car makers manufacture nearly all of their U.S. sold cars in the U.S., and (surprise!), Japanese electronics companies outsource their manufacturing too!

The fact that Toshiba hands aren't involved in the build process isn't proof-positive that it's a bad set. High return rates, poor performance, and complete breakdowns determine that. Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

 

[radioheadrule83]

THERE'S SOME SERIOUS MISUNDERSTANDINGS IN THIS THREAD:

It's not upconversion, it's down conversion.

1280x720 or 1920x1080 shown on 800x480/540 or 960x540 is down conversion/sampling. This is MUCH better than upconversion/sampling!

Buying 1080p native (1920x1080) HDTV and showing 720P (1280x720) games on it would use 1.5X upconversion/upsampling, and that would introduce the ugly interpolation. This is bad.

So the lesson is, even though CRT HDTVs won't display 720P natively, it will look great because it will be down converting/sampling from 720P/1080i signals.

Let's say you've got a set with 480 lines vertical resolution. Would a widescreen 720p image downsampled to that resolution look significantly better than something playing/running at 720x480 by default?

Sorry to interrupt a good discussion with Nintendo-related stuff, but Mrklaw has a good point re: the Nintendo threads if a lot of the affordable sets have these kind of native resolutions.

 

[Mrbob]

Let's say you've got a set with 480 lines vertical resolution. Would a widescreen 720p image downsampled to that resolution look significantly better than something playing/running at 720x480 by default?

Sorry to interrupt a good discussion with Nintendo-related stuff, but Mrklaw has a good point re: the Nintendo threads if a lot of the affordable sets have these kind of native resolutions.

Your resolution totals are off, but the answer is yes. Think of it in terms of DVD versus VHS. DVD signal looks much cleaner than a VHS signal. Even on a 480i set that can't truly handle all the lines of resolution from DVD.

 

[C- Warrior]

You really can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i. Actually, you CAN'T tell the difference at all.

The console will convert the output image from 720p to 1080i, and others have said it looks just as good, so don't worry if your TV can't do 720p natively.

It's money well saved.

I'd suggest wait though.

You've made it clear your number 1 reason for going HDTV is for gaming. And if you're waiting for the PS3, then hold out on getting a TV till then.

If you're waiting for a 360, then wait the 5 or so months until it comes out.

Next-gen consoles will help push the HDTV market. Even if it is slightly. That "push" should promote new TV's to come out, at cheaper prices.

 

[op_ivy]

man, i am still so fucking confused on this HDTV thing. i cant imagine the average consumer...

come closer to 360 launch, i hope their is a dedicated thread with the best deals for the best tvs for 360 gaming.

 

[C- Warrior]

Actually it's not too bad.

The only reason all these tech numbers are flying about is because the topic creator is being a "tech specific whore."

No offense, most here at GAF are and there is nothing wrong with that.

The average consumer who has an HDTV probably has one that can accept 720p, yet converts it to 1080i.

The average consumer won't give a shit because games in HDTV no matter what resolution, look damn good. And as stated by many people, the difference in 720p and 1080i is really insignificant especially for your more typical sized television set.

So, 720p games will be converted to 1080i. Average consumer = happy. No extra effort needed on his/her part.

The few pS3 games running on 1080p will be converted to 1080i, in that--yes, there is a graphical difference. But unless you want to spend 5,000+ on a TV, be happy with the 1080i as it's probably the 2nd best looking thing you can get (obviously 'tied' with 720p)


Because if you think about it, the only reason the topic creator made the thread was the fear that converting a signal from 720p to 1080i would be visually inferior...and it's not. Thus, I'm sure if he knew that before hand he wouldn't have made the thread at all.

 

[Shogmaster]

The average consumer who has an HDTV probably has one that can accept 720p, yet converts it to 1080i.

Let's think about that statement for a minute. Accepts 1280x720p signal, then upconverts it to 1920x1080i (there are more pixels in 1080i than 720p), before displaying it on a tube that can barely show 800x540?

or is it:

Takes 1280x720p singal, then down converts it to 800x540/480 to display it.

I think it's the latter for most CRT HDTVs, or at least I hope so.

 

[Mrbob]

man, i am still so fucking confused on this HDTV thing. i cant imagine the average consumer...

come closer to 360 launch, i hope their is a dedicated thread with the best deals for the best tvs for 360 gaming.

Yeah we'll have to get one up in November. The Sony Super Fine Pitch sets ones to keep your eyes on.


Anyway I just started reading this thread myself after doing a search. Some talk about scaling resolutions here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=499944&page=1&highlight=Native+CRT+resolution

 

[Flo_Evans]

shog is right - 720p > 1080i

basicaly when your 1080i TV gets a 720p signal it takes the 720 lines and downsamples it to 540 lines (1080i = 540 lines every 1/60sec) The only time a TV would have to upconvert is if it was a 720p native set (DLP, LCD, or plasma) and you feed it a 1080i signal. So it would have to take those 540 lines and scales them to 720 (or 768, whatever res the LCD panel/projector is).

the problem lies in the fact that diffrent TV stations broadcast diffrently... fox and espn are 720p iirc NBC is 1080i. When it comes to game machines though I would not worry about it too much. Most likely you will be able to set the output of your 360/ps3/rev?? to whatever your TV nativly displays.

 

[android]

Hasn't Microsoft already said that the 360 will do both resolutions? I mean if my computer games can support a variety of resolutions from 640X480 on up, why can't the consoles support SD, 720p, 1080i and even 1080p.

 

[Shogmaster]

Hasn't Microsoft already said that the 360 will do both resolutions? I mean if my computer games can support a variety of resolutions from 640X480 on up, why can't the consoles support SD, 720p, 1080i and even 1080p.

Correct. X360 can do both 1280x720p and 1920x1080i. Most CRT HDTVs will still show that as 800x480/540.

 

[Mrbob]

Damn it Shog you need to pimp the Sony Super Fine Pitch more 'cause it has a higher resolution output!

Although I think some DLP options are damn sexy choices right now. Get native 720P resolution in your gaming on a bigger set yummy. I'd love to get one of the upcoming 1080P DLP sets this fall but I just don't want to throw down $4000 on a TV set.

 

[Yusaku]

My 30" Sanyo HT30744, which cost me all of $550, can still do 800 lines of resolution. What podunk "HDTV"s are you talking about that can't do more than 480 lines of resolution?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Your resolution totals are off, but the answer is yes. Think of it in terms of DVD versus VHS. DVD signal looks much cleaner than a VHS signal. Even on a 480i set that can't truly handle all the lines of resolution from DVD.

Thats a bit of an exagerration though right? VHS looks shitty for a whole bunch of reasons... it's an analog recording solution involving magnetic tape of all things. It's shocking how bad it can look when you think back and remember it being acceptable.

What I meant to say was - if we put aside the quality of the CRT/LCD/Plasma panel itself for a second - it's contrast ratio / blacks & hues and so forth.... talking about what basically happens in terms of pixels: wouldn't a system with a native pixel resolution of <whatever> x 480/590 simply be making a 720p image look like 480p/590p at best?

Is there a better way to think about this in order to get my head around it?

 

[scissorfight]

Buying 1080p native (1920x1080) HDTV and showing 720P (1280x720) games on it would use 1.5X upconversion/upsampling, and that would introduce the ugly interpolation. This is bad.

That's why I don't understand why everyone's so gung-ho for 1080p...yes, you're future-proofing your purchase, but in the meantime the majority of 360/PS3 games will only support 720p/1080i and therefore look worse on your set. Does anyone really think more than a few games will actually support 1080p?

 

[Deg]

That's why I don't understand why everyone's so gung-ho for 1080p...yes, you're future-proofing your purchase, but in the meantime the majority of 360/PS3 games will only support 720p/1080i and therefore look worse on your set. Does anyone really think more than a few games will actually support 1080p?

Do you really want to buy a bad out of date tv set? I think not. Also many good tv's will process your image quality when upscaled. Resulting in a better quality picture than originally intended. Make sure you find one that does it. Pixel Plus 2 for Philips for example. It will also enhance things like Live sports feeds which tend to be of lower quality than most prerecorded material and things like photos and games.

Your argument is like saying forget CD when everything is in Cassette(or how you spell it) in the early 90's. Once people get a taste of better technology its hard to go back. These visual enhancers do an amazing job if they are good or set correctly.

Also running higher res material on a lower res tv set results in loss of detail. You'd rather want to see all the detail than not.

 

[Shogmaster]

My 30" Sanyo HT30744, which cost me all of $550, can still do 800 lines of resolution. What podunk "HDTV"s are you talking about that can't do more than 480 lines of resolution?

Someone needs to learn about vertical resolution vs horizontal.....

 

[Shogmaster]

Do you really want to buy a bad out of date tv set? I think not. Also many good tv's will process your image quality when upscaled. Resulting in a better quality picture than originally intended. Make sure you find one that does it. Pixel Plus 2 for Philips for example. It will also enhance things like Live sports feeds which tend to be of lower quality than most prerecorded material and things like photos and games.

Stop. Seriously.... Stop.......

Upscaling is never better than downscaling or native resolution. NEVER. For example, you can try every trickery with Photoshop, you'll never get an upsized picture to look more crisp than the original.

Your argument is like saying forget CD when everything is in Cassette(or how you spell it) in the early 90's. Once people get a taste of better technology its hard to go back.

I know you like simplistic analogies, but that's not even close. 720p and 1080p is both "CD players" in your example. Just one is capable of playing at higher sample rate. In the end, both owners will be able to enjoy digital media.

 

[Yusaku]

Someone needs to learn about vertical resolution vs horizontal.....

I'm sure someone does. But not me.

 

[Shogmaster]

I'm sure someone does. But not me.

If you think this 30" set can display 800 lines of vertical resolution, effectively giving the set higher than 720p's vertical res, then look in the mirror buddy 'cause it's you.

 

[sonycowboy]

I understand that "fixed pixel" LCD's only have a single resolution. However, will CRT's not be able to do both resolutions "natively"? It would seem that the 'gun' could be configured to have different ratios that would allow it to shoot at multiple resolutions. Then the display would reflect as best it could what hit it.

It seems really, really stupid to me to have two resolutions 720 vs 1080 that are essentially incompatible with each other and build sets for one vs the other, thus downsampling the signal that is incompatible.

Similary, does this mean that a 720p is the set to get if you can get it native? The 720 would be native and the 1080i would be downsampled to 720 (losing every 3rd line both horizontally and vertically?).

Otherwise, you'd get the 1080i set that can accept 720 signals and set both your PS3 and Xbox360 to be 1080i (thus getting native resolution).

I know there are many arguments out there about 720p vs 1080i. 1080 gets you more resolution, but can have flicker in fast moving content (gaming and sports). Slower moving content (movies) appears to have more fans on the 1080i side.

 

[Deg]

you'll never get an upsized picture to look more crisp than the original.

Rubbish. You cant call yourself an expert on tvs if you dont know this. Even i am not an expert. Photoshop is nothing like this stuff and this stuff is standard in high end tv's for afew years now. But its really amazing now.

Oh and they have found ways to increase the framerate. Its insane. You know what it actually works despite being fake! Philips are one of the more aggressive at this and their image quality is effectively higher res as a result if you have higher res tv compared to the source. A good thing is to use it on someones face being shown. See the difference it makes in detail. It is STUNNING

This is one side of tv GAF has failed to discuss.

Here's a link:

http://www.flattv.philips.com/index.cfm?event=main&cat_id=1&subcat_id=2&page=pg2

By the way the demo pictures are nothing compared to what you actually see in person.

The most important features of Pixel Plus 2 are the advanced sharpness & resolution enhancements. These are accomplished through Philips&#8217; unique sub-pixel based Horizontal & Vertical Luminance Transient Improvement. First the incoming signal&#8212;from any source-- is scaled up to a maximum resolution of 2,560,000 pixels. Then each individual pixel is altered to better match the surrounding pixels. The end result is an enormously sharper, crisper picture with much more depth impression.

 

[Shogmaster]

I understand that "fixed pixel" LCD's only have a single resolution. However, will CRT's not be able to do both resolutions "natively"? It would seem that the 'gun' could be configured to have different ratios that would allow it to shoot at multiple resolutions. Then the display would reflect as best it could what hit it.

It seems really, really stupid to me to have two resolutions 720 vs 1080 that are essentially incompatible with each other and build sets for one vs the other, thus downsampling the signal that is incompatible.

Similary, does this mean that a 720p is the set to get if you can get it native? The 720 would be native and the 1080i would be downsampled to 720 (losing every 3rd line both horizontally and vertically?).

Otherwise, you'd get the 1080i set that can accept 720 signals and set both your PS2 to be 1080i (thus getting native resolution).

I know there are many arguments out there about 720p vs 1080i. 1080 gets you more resolution, but can have flicker in fast moving content (gaming and sports). Slower moving content (movies) appears to have more fans on the 1080i side.

Simply, on a CRT that can actually do 1280x720, 720P will show without any conversion, and 1080i will show as 960x540 @ 30fps progressive.

But since there are no 26"+ CRT sets that can do 1280x720 in today's market, 720p will show as probably 800x480p on most sets (up to 60fps), and 800x540p @ 30fps max.