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HDTV vs EDTV?

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Stuggernaut

Grandma's Chippy
Ok I've read up on both, I know the pros & cons for the most part, but I can't find any real feedback! I want to read what people who have seen & used both think. All I can find are one sided arguements and debates.

Yes I am debating a purchase.

No I don't need any model suggestions.

Just looking for honest opinions.

If it matters, I am in no way a "videophile" ... I just like good quality as much as the next guy.
 

Fusebox

Banned
How big is the picture? Anything over 32" (real inches on a plasma, not some 28" viewable CRT bodge job) really benefits from HD, whereas a 32" CRT or smaller can easily be ED and still look terrific as long as the tube is decent qual.

Just imo of course. :)
 

Stuggernaut

Grandma's Chippy
Everything I looked at today was 42"+

The real deal is price here...sorta. Best Buy is doing 2yrs no interest and it's awefully tempting...hehe. So doing my research.

EDTV Plasmas are $2000-$3500 depending on size (42"-52") while the HDTV equivelants are almost double in some cases.

Of course I could just get a projection, DLP, whatever for the same (and with a bigger screen) price as an EDTV, but I hate projection TVs view angle restrictions.

My wife ad I stared at HDTVs & EDTVs for like an hour and the only time we could tell the difference was with brightness and text clarity.

I hate TV shopping.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
I'd shy away from plasmas right now, not to throw a wrench in anything. They're overpriced, they can burn in if you're not careful, and they're a bit more finite when compared to other technologies.

If I were in the market for an ED/HDTV, I'd stick to DLP or a CRT. But that's just my humble, kinda-sorta-know-what-I'm-talking-about opinion.
 

Fusebox

Banned
xsarien said:
I'd shy away from plasmas right now, not to throw a wrench in anything. They're overpriced, they can burn in if you're not careful, and they're a bit more finite when compared to other technologies.

If I were in the market for an ED/HDTV, I'd stick to DLP or a CRT. But that's just my humble, kinda-sorta-know-what-I'm-talking-about opinion.

Burn-in simply isn't an issue with current model plasmas - sure they have a finite lifespan, but mine is rated to 60,000 hours, thats about 4 hours a day for 20 years or something, way more life than I'll use.

If I was to buy a 42" plasma I'd only buy HD - you may not notice it now, but watch some really good 1080i HD material on it, or try it with one of these new DVD players that are upsampling the picture to 1080i and you'll see the difference between ED and HD.

I've currently got the 32" HD Hitachi but my fave plasma on the market is the Hitachi 37" HD model, which is 1024 x 1024, it's just perfect, and it's only around AUS$4500 if you shop smart.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
The obvious question is, "What are you going to be watching on this TV?"

If it's mainly regular channels and DVDs, do yourself a favor; save the money and go for a nice ED model. HD plasmas tend to make standard cable and other non-HD feeds look noticeably worse than how they appear on an ED model. Anyway, if you're not a videophile, you're probably not into forcing yourself to watch worthless TV shows and uninteresting sporting events just because they're broadcast in HD...
 
Mr Pockets said:
Everything I looked at today was 42"+

My wife ad I stared at HDTVs & EDTVs for like an hour and the only time we could tell the difference was with brightness and text clarity.

I hate TV shopping.

EDTV is about 852x480 resolution which is the exact resolution that an 16:9 anamorphic DVD stretches out to.

If they were to put ESPN HD on at 720p on both TVs, a true HDTV in theory would show the full 1280x720 picture and the EDTV would downscale the image to 852x480. That resolution change is pretty major. Just try setting your monitor to similar resolutions and check out the screen real estate.

TV shopping is a major pain. Just be sure to check the native resolutions of the TVs, what kind of inputs the model you are looking at has, and how flexable it is in terms of displaying 480i/p 720p 1080i/p etc.
 

Cooper

Member
Warm Machine said:
EDTV is about 852x480 resolution which is the exact resolution that an 16:9 anamorphic DVD stretches out to.

This isn't exactly true. Anamorphic DVDs are 720x480 pixels, so even an EDTV has to perform scaling.
 

DaCocoBrova

Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
I would never buy a plasma. Not now.

I have one in my office (NEC 42MP2) and I don't even use it. The burn in is one reason (let a title screen sit there for less than 30 seconds and bam! You'll see 'Press Start' for the rest of the day when the screen is black or dark). But the main issue I have is the native resolution. IIRC, this model looks best at 800x600... Anything higher looks...bad if you know what to look for. Text in particular.

This things costed $6,600 when it was released and is also sold under the Marantz name at retail.

Fuck that...
 

gohepcat

Banned
DaCocoBrova said:
This things costed...

I'm always surprised when I see people use "costed". Doesn’t that sound horribly wrong? It's "cost"

Anyway. I'd go straight for the DLP TVs. My god they are so much better than Plasma. Plasma Tvs are like the Bose speakers of televisions. Rich people buy them because they don't bother doing their homework.
 
Cooper said:
This isn't exactly true. Anamorphic DVDs are 720x480 pixels, so even an EDTV has to perform scaling.

Which is why I said...

"EDTV is about 852x480 resolution which is the exact resolution that an 16:9 anamorphic DVD STRETCHES out to."
 

Cooper

Member
Warm Machine said:
Which is why I said...

"EDTV is about 852x480 resolution which is the exact resolution that an 16:9 anamorphic DVD STRETCHES out to."

But they don't. They "stretch out to" whatever your TV's resolution is. There's nothing special about ED resolution when it comes to anamorphic DVDs.
 
3 years ago, I would have bought an EDTV hands down. Now, I don't know. Let me explain my crazy reasoning.

For me, progressive scan is about GAMING! If I'm gonna replace my perfectly fine SDTV, it better be exactly what I want, and what I wnat is native resolution for my games. Unfortunatley for true HDTV (read 16:9 720P sets - 1280x720 native resolution) owners, I can count widescreen 720P games on one hand, all of them for XBox, and most of them I couldn't give a rat's ass about.

All the best looking games this gen is running widescreen 480P. That's 853x480. When you put such games on 720P sets, the ugly scaling comes in to play. The first time I saw DOA3 running on my friend's Samsung 42" DLP set, I was like "eww". I honestly think it looks better on my 27" SDTV set with component in @480i. So knowing this, If I were to buy a progressive scan set up till now, I would have went for an EDTV set hands down.

Now though, Xenon is less than a year away. That's potentially 720P games as a standard. Could I spend $1500+ on a TV set just for a year's worth of contentment? I don't know.....
 
Cooper said:
But they don't. They "stretch out to" whatever your TV's resolution is. There's nothing special about ED resolution when it comes to anamorphic DVDs.

Take a screen cap from a DVD and load it into photoshop. Then change the aspect ratio of the captured image to reflect a 16:9 screen. What is the resolution you get? Why...is 852x480!

Now, you can have it displayed on a 1280x720 projector then yes the image will then upscale to that res. 16:9 EDTVs are generally put at 852x480 because that is a 16:9 DVD resolution where all it has to do is stretch. Basically you are getting the perfect display size pixel for pixel that a DVD will do. Yes, its a stretch and there is no hidden detail in between the 720 horizontal and 852 pixels horizontal.
 
If you want a big screen HDTV I would go DLP. If you don't see any weird rainbow banding then it is for you! DLP is SOOOO much brighter and contrasted and less fragile than plasma and LCD. Plasma burns and dims. LCD gets dead pixels. DLP is pretty damn reliable.
 

tmdorsey

Member
EDTV is such a waste. A properly configured HD CRT can look as good as a plasma. HDTV displays more detail than EDTV. So to sum I say get a true HD monitor.
 
My HD Toshiba CRT looks as good as a plasma. Unfortunately 16:9 CRTs can only be around 34" to 36" :(

Sony's 40" 4:3 XBR HD CRT was a thing of beauty when I saw it in the store. Too bad you can't get them any more.
 

Cooper

Member
Warm Machine said:
Take a screen cap from a DVD and load it into photoshop. Then change the aspect ratio of the captured image to reflect a 16:9 screen. What is the resolution you get? Why...is 852x480!

I'm not sure what you're trying to demonstrate here. When I feed an anamorphic DVD to my DLP, the TV takes the 720x480 signal and converts it to a 16x9 image that's appropriate for my TV, which for me happens to be a 1280x720 image. There's no intermediate conversion to 852x480 like you seem to be implying. Or are you saying something else?
 

madara

Member
Interesting facts you guys mention here. I told myself like 5 years ago when I can buy 32 or less inch HDTV for under 1k that lets me play video games without any burn in worries and no forseeable "better" HD improvements are coming I'll have to buy one.
Yikes it sounds like my time maybe coming soon...off to count my piggy bank
 

DaCocoBrova

Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
Anyway. I'd go straight for the DLP TVs. My god they are so much better than Plasma. Plasma Tvs are like the Bose speakers of televisions. Rich people buy them because they don't bother doing their homework.

They have bulbs that need to replaced. More $$$.

No thanks.
 
Mr Pockets said:
Everything I looked at today was 42"+

The real deal is price here...sorta. Best Buy is doing 2yrs no interest and it's awefully tempting...hehe. So doing my research.

EDTV Plasmas are $2000-$3500 depending on size (42"-52") while the HDTV equivelants are almost double in some cases.

Of course I could just get a projection, DLP, whatever for the same (and with a bigger screen) price as an EDTV, but I hate projection TVs view angle restrictions.

My wife ad I stared at HDTVs & EDTVs for like an hour and the only time we could tell the difference was with brightness and text clarity.

I hate TV shopping.

In went TV shopping about three months ago and did all the research and opinion seeking at the time for at least a month. I was always a CRT tube person back then and was never totally thrilled about projection either because of things like you said about the limited viewing angles. But things like viewing angle aren't so much of an issue if you get a good DLP or LCD Projection. The viewing angle varies from manufacturer and model. Sony's Grand Wega LCD Projection has an excellent viewing angle for example. I'm amazed at how wide of an angle I can sit and still see it. It comes to a point that there's no way I'd be watching TV from that angle before it even starts to become an issue.

I had to quickly rule out Plasma for three reasons. First reason is that plasmas can burn in. Since most of us are gamers here, I'm not going to spend all that money only to have it burn in images on the screen from a lot of game playing. That leads to reason number two, the money. Plasmas are expensive for what you get out of it. Comparable other technologies are significantly cheaper and aren't hurt by issues like burn in. The third reason is plasma screens begin to degrade in quality from the second you turn it on. It's a continual degredation of image quality until it's no longer any good. While this may be fine for awhile, there comes a point where if you were to compare it to a new one, it would be a noticeable difference and there's nothing you can do it even with calibration.

After all my research it really came down to two technologies which is DLP and LCD Projection. LCoS is another alternative but there isn't much of a selection out there. Neither allows burn in, and both have sharp drop off rather continuous drop off in performance. When the bulb goes, that's when you notice the difference in quality and then you can replace it and it'll be good as new again. Breaking it down into just DLP and LCD though, I ended up with LCD Projection for several reasons.

With DLP I unfortunately saw the rainbow so that nearly killed it for me. On top of that, a small percentage of people can get motion sickness from the technology. Granted its a minor selection, but there was no way I could convince my g/f to sit in front of a TV in a store for 30 min to an hour watching it to see if she would get motion sickness from it. Nor would I want to think about bringing people in who are likely to be over watching it. It was a risk that I just didn't want to take given I know many people who get motion sickness from FPSs on PCs. Finally the last reason was standard definition stuff doesn't look that good on a DLP in comparison to Sony's Grand Wega Projection. Since I plan to be watching stuff that isn't HDTV quality for some time, ie DirecTV, PS2, etc, I didn't want to be looking at something that exposed the flaws of the lower resolution sources. So if you plan on using it on non HDTV content and DVDs, then you need to take that into account. So because of these reasons, I went with LCD Projection.

That doesn't mean there aren't any drawbacks to LCD Projection though. One issue is the possibility of dead pixels, but I'm either lucky, or blind, but I haven't seen any yet. Nor do I have any on my LCD Monitor on my PC. Maybe I'm just lucky but fortunately it's not an issue for me. Another possibility is that the black level isn't as good as the DLP. I don't mind it so much compared to others, but it is something to keep in consideration. Neither DLP or LCD Projection have black levels as good as CRT Projection though.

Of course the best thing to do is look in a store and see what you think. I think you really should look at Panasonic DLPs(which I hear are better than the Samsungs now), Sony Grand Wega LCD Projection, Panasonic LCD Projection, and JVC D-ILA(LCoS) over any plasma screen. Also don't be afraid to take something in to the store to hook it up to see how it looks. They will let you do that.

Depending on where you look, a 42" screen can run you as low as under $2000 for LCD Projection. So I don't think price is an issue, in fact I say it's a better bang for your buck than Plasma is cuz you at least get actual HD resolutions in these sets at 1280 x 720.
 
DaCocoBrova said:
They have bulbs that need to replaced. More $$$.

No thanks.

The bulbs aren't that expensive and have to be replaced infrequently. Better than your image constantly degrading without anything you can do.
 

Stuggernaut

Grandma's Chippy
Wow this thread came back...thought it was dead yesterday ;P

Just to update..

- This is for watching TV & Movies only
- Will not be playing video games on it at all
- I have DirectTV Satelite

It's down to two models now...one is HD one is ED with an almost $2000 price difference between them. We saw cheaper HD ones but we really like an Panasonic one we saw. So I did a lot of research on EDTV last night and it pretty much equals what I read here with a little less hate :D

So let me see if I have it right...

- HDTV has better resolution and is where the market is going anyway
- EDTV has about 10%-12% less in resolutiion
- HDTV has crisper images especially in text
- EDTV will display DVDs at their best (so will HD)
- EDTV is a ton less money but is "get what you pay for" type of thing
 

Cooper

Member
Mr Pockets said:
So let me see if I have it right...

EDTV has about 10%-12% less in resolutiion

ED is more like 50% less resolution. A full ED frame has 852x480 pixels, which is about 400,000 total. A full 720p HD frame has about 900,000 total pixels.

What type of TV shows do you watch? If you watch mostly shows that are available in HD, it's worth making the upgrade. DirecTV is offering some good HD incentives, such as the HD pack for free for 6 months.
 

golem

Member
you can get the dell 42" hd plasma for around 2500$ i believe.. 3k$ normal price - 500$ dell hd coupon (pm me if u want one)
 

Fusebox

Banned
Mr Pockets said:
So let me see if I have it right...

- HDTV has better resolution and is where the market is going anyway
- EDTV has about 10%-12% less in resolutiion
- HDTV has crisper images especially in text
- EDTV will display DVDs at their best (so will HD)
- EDTV is a ton less money but is "get what you pay for" type of thing

Sounds about right - also some HD sets upsample everything to 1080i and the quality of the upsampler should be taken into consideration, an upsampling HD plasma is about the best display device you can own imo.

I can't stand CRT TVs anymore, I'll take weak blacks any day for 100% perfect geometry, more vivid colour and a larger screen size under any circumstances. And what is it with you Best Buy believeing monkeys here still mumbling that current gen. plasmas suffer from burn-in?? Do some research before posting ffs. :lol
 
I have done my research and plasmas still can have burn in. They've done stuff to try and reduce how likely you are to get it, but you can still get it. That also reminds me, if you watch 4:3 material, you can burn in the bars to your screen. Another reason not to get Plasma or any display that can burn in images if you're still watching standard definition material.
 

Deg

Banned
Marty Chinn said:
I have done my research and plasmas still can have burn in. They've done stuff to try and reduce how likely you are to get it, but you can still get it. That also reminds me, if you watch 4:3 material, you can burn in the bars to your screen. Another reason not to get Plasma or any display that can burn in images if you're still watching standard definition material.

Not the new ones. Some of them have rep for being almost burn proof. Its very difficult to get a burn in nowadays anyways.


Fusebox said:
I can't stand CRT TVs anymore, I'll take weak blacks any day for 100% perfect geometry, more vivid colour and a larger screen size under any circumstances. And what is it with you Best Buy believeing monkeys here still mumbling that current gen. plasmas suffer from burn-in?? Do some research before posting ffs. :lol

The best plasmas handle the blacks so well that it is 'very' difficult to tell the difference between them and a CRT. Burn in really isnt much of an issue. The best are considered almost burn proof. And yes up sampling is a big deal. Angle viewing isnt an issue unlike the other non CRT tv's.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Marty's post was a good one. I went LCD for the same reasons (only direct view on the wall, not projection). The increased native resolution of LCDs was the killer for me - whether connecting via VGA (makes a great monitor!), or 720p DVDs, there is just a lot more resolution in LCD.

But you said no games...so

Its all down to how long you think you'll have the TV and what it will be used for in that time. Bear in mind most households keep a TV for approx. 7 years. Thats a long time.

Do you have a HD service? Are you interested in getting HD in the next couple of years? If the answer is yes, then get at least a 720p capable display. If not, then just get a nice quality, lower cost EDTV and be happy.
 

Fusebox

Banned
Yeah that's another thing to consider - in Australia we have a lot of 1080i HD programming that looks sensational on a HD plasma, I also play a lot of Xbox via the HD pack and my DVD player is connected via VGA cable so my plasma rarely sees any low quality sources and when it does they do tend to look pretty shit - they're really unforgiving in that regard.
 

Deg

Banned
mrklaw said:
Marty's post was a good one. I went LCD for the same reasons (only direct view on the wall, not projection). The increased native resolution of LCDs was the killer for me - whether connecting via VGA (makes a great monitor!), or 720p DVDs, there is just a lot more resolution in LCD.

A LCD picture just doesnt compare to a Plasma picture. With Plasma you get CRT like blacks, no angle issues and just a much nicer picture. Resolutions are the same when you are looking at the same sizes. Plasmas dont come in 28" versions. They are all big. The only way i would get a LCD is for a small tv/monitor and compactness. Which i did for my pc.

Bear in mind the difference between the best and average plasma is huge. So prepare to spend abit :p

Fusebox said:
Yeah that's another thing to consider - in Australia we have a lot of 1080i HD programming that looks sensational on a HD plasma, I also play a lot of Xbox via the HD pack and my DVD player is connected via VGA cable so my plasma rarely sees any low quality sources and when it does they do tend to look pretty shit - they're really unforgiving in that regard.

Get a good lead. Its worth it.
 
with the 852x480 on an EDTV I'm just illustrating that the resolutions of those EDTVs are such that they are designed to 16:9 regular 480p material in a manner that gives you a near pixel perfect rendition of that material.

To get a perfect rendition of a anamorphic DVD you'd need a 16:9 -720x480 display built with rectangular pixels.

Of course if your display uses a higher resolution the picture is going to be upscaled to the native resolution of that display.

Upscaling can suck depending on the method being used to do it. Much like taking a DVD frame and blowing it up to 1920x1080 in photoshop to simulate 1080p, you have your pick of 5 or so differn't interpolation methods. Some are good and some are bad depending on your preference. I personally detest visible interpolation as it generally softens and blends the image. I'd rather the pixels remain true to their origin and not blend between each other. I think thats what SHOG was seeing when he was at his friends' watching DOA.
 

Cooper

Member
Warm Machine said:
with the 852x480 on an EDTV I'm just illustrating that the resolutions of those EDTVs are such that they are designed to 16:9 regular 480p material in a manner that gives you a near pixel perfect rendition of that material.

So you're basically just saying that ED resolution is the closest match to a DVD that's a true 16x9 aspect ratio. I'll agree with that. Personally, I'd rather take the HD resolution display and get extra detail from true HD sources, even if it means more scaling for DVDs. DVDs still look good, and HD is purty. :)
 

DaCocoBrova

Finally bought a new PSP, but then pushed the demon onto someone else. Jesus.
A LCD picture just doesnt compare to a Plasma picture. With Plasma you get CRT like blacks, no angle issues and just a much nicer picture. Resolutions are the same when you are looking at the same sizes. Plasmas dont come in 28" versions. They are all big. The only way i would get a LCD is for a small tv/monitor and compactness. Which i did for my pc.

What sources are yous using for comparison? The PS2 (most games) for example, looks like sh!t on a plasma.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
DaCocoBrova said:
What sources are yous using for comparison? The PS2 (most games) for example, looks like sh!t on a plasma.

I'm guessing he's quoting out of his ass because he has a plasma, or some strange fixation for one.

My LCD doesn't have great blacks, granted - but plasmas are nowhere near CRT black levels yet either.

LCD resolutions blow standard plasmas out of the window, and are way better for PC usage and viewing at a closer distance. Standard def Plasmas are nearly all around 848x480. LCDs (even tiny 17" ones) are usually 1280x768. Just for a laugh, take a look at the res of the Sharp titanium 45" - 1920x1080. compared to 848x480? 2million vs 500k pixels.

Yes there are HD plasmas, but they cost a lot of money

I also have no angle issues with my LCD, and any good LCD should be the same. I have 176 degree horizontal and vertical. I can see the picture perfectly well until its a tiny trapezium - way beyond any useable angles anyway.

Don't just based on PC monitors or laptop screens - consumer TV aimed LCDs are a whole different kettle of fish.
 

Deg

Banned
What sources are yous using for comparison? The PS2 (most games) for example, looks like sh!t on a plasma

If you want a large viewing size , games should look better on a 'good' plasma unless you use composite or somehow aerial. CRT's are excellent as well for games but if you want larger screen sizes you look elsewhere. Of course with some games they translate worse on a larger screen than other games. Other shine even brighter. Ussualy the better looking games shine. Remember most plasma upsample nowadays so most PS2 images are actually enhanced. But GC and Xbox are enhanced even further.

mrklaw said:
I'm guessing he's quoting out of his ass because he has a plasma, or some strange fixation for one.

Just giving my accounts. What many of you are saying was true in the past. Technology keeps getting better. Plasmas arent the same as they were 4 years ago just like LCDs.

My LCD doesn't have great blacks, granted - but plasmas are nowhere near CRT black levels yet either.

You might want to check again ;) Look at some decent newer plasmas. Side by side against a CRT its very hard to tell the difference. The best ones actually tend to be a little darker than CRT! Thats how you spot them out.

LCD resolutions blow standard plasmas out of the window, and are way better for PC usage and viewing at a closer distance.

Very true and LCD's are much more conveniant. I live in the UK so HD stuff is hard to come buy. Many companies cut stuff out of their tv's here :( but its getting better with Sky saying they'll do HD eventually.

Standard def Plasmas are nearly all around 848x480. LCDs (even tiny 17" ones) are usually 1280x768. Just for a laugh, take a look at the res of the Sharp titanium 45" - 1920x1080. compared to 848x480? 2million vs 500k pixels.

Many are. But many are also increasing the resolutions. To me this is the weak point of plasmas for me. Although at the size LCD's just dont have the picture. Contrast is rubbish, Black levels are crap, angles are poor etc. in comparison. Plasmas just offer a better picture compared to LCD's. Sharp are one of the best LCD makers.

Yes there are HD plasmas, but they cost a lot of money

Yes they do. Plasmas are 'very' expensive unlike LCD.


I also have no angle issues with my LCD, and any good LCD should be the same. I have 176 degree horizontal and vertical. I can see the picture perfectly well until its a tiny trapezium - way beyond any useable angles anyway.

Don't just based on PC monitors or laptop screens - consumer TV aimed LCDs are a whole different kettle of fish.

Well i havent seen any LCD tv that dont have changes in the blacks and greys when you change your view. I could be mistaken but while they have improved quite abit they still have some way to go. I am looking to buy a LCD tv for my room in the future. Nothing really huge or anything.
 

Fusebox

Banned
DaCocoBrova said:
What sources are yous using for comparison? The PS2 (most games) for example, looks like sh!t on a plasma.

Well considering the PS2 outputs at 640 x 400 at best, the size of the screen dictates that of course it's going to look worse the larger it gets, however the PS2 into my 32" HD Hitachi plasma upsampled to 1080i looks as good as that old tech is ever gonna look.

You shouldn't judge plasmas by walking into best buys where they've been set up by monkeys using crappy interconnects, what sources are you using for comparison?

I spent loads of hours demoing new 42" HD LCD 1280 x 1024 sets as well as I was thinking of moving the plasma into the bedroom, and none of them came close to my 1024 x 852 plasma in terms of detail and sharpness. They had nice screens and considering they were on average half the price of the HD plasmas the picture quality wasnt too bad with a high quality source, but they were all very dependant on the viewing angle, especially if you look up or down onto the set the picture washed out really quickly, and the pictures were on average much noisier than any decent plasma I've demoed as well.

I'm sure it's good tech, but its still early days and I'm yet to see one that matches the rock solid pq of a good HD plasma so I can only recommend them for budget shoppers after either a huge cheap LCD RPTV screen or a small hi-res true LCD to sit really close to in your bedroom.
 
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