No, it's not. Card advantage is when I have 6 cards in my hand and my opponent has 2 (or whatever).
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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No, it's not. Card advantage is when I have 6 cards in my hand and my opponent has 2 (or whatever).
Usually I see card advantage referred to as the number of cards you are ultimately able to draw and play versus your opponent.
You generated that card advantage via your 2 for 1s. If you play a card like Ysera and your opponent double fireballs it, you have achieved the goal you had when you played the card which was to end up with more cards than your opponent.
Midrange Paladin has bad match-ups against many of the current most popular decks.
It doesn't survive long enough to survive against heavy aggro, it can't deal very well with Patron, and a lot of the remaining control decks are so heavy that you don't have enough end game minions to finish the fight.
It might be due to the differences in eras. I started playing around Onslaught and played sporadically up to Innistrad. Most of this theory and terminology was crystallized by then but if you come from Ice Age or Mirage it might be a bit different. My history is fuzzy on this.
Card advantage is based on one universal truth: You draw one card per turn.
You gain CA by drawing more per turn than you would've otherwise, either literally through card draw effects or effectively through cards that make other cards, and sometimes figuratively through abilities that are effectively cards themselves.
I agree we need to look at Hearthstone differently because of Fatigue, but I'm not sure how to fit it into this mold. I would say the Library is closer to Life totals than CA or Tempo.
Ysera is pure value no doubt about it.
All of your examples are a form of value of course. That's also what generally when people when they say "value" in Hearthstone. Like Shredder is high value obviously. Void Caller is potentially INSANE value.
But these are still different forms of values. In the end the point of the game is to win the game. You can have a deck full of maximum 2 for 1 even 3 for 1 value cards but it doesn't matter when you are up against a Face Hunter who is using Leper Gnome (low "value" because it can easily die to a hero power for negative "value") and Arcane Golems which kill you in 6 turns.
In the same way Healbot has "value" for the heal. It's a 3/3 body for 5 mana, horrendous "value" when it comes to going toe to toe with other cards but the value is in the HP gain which is really high. Healbot probably wins more games than Ysera nowadays.
For starters you are not using Dr Balanced.HOW AM I FUCKING LOSING
And before anyone asks, no I don't have Dr. Boom because I want to at least win with integrity.
LOL @ winning with "integrity" in Hearthstone.
Yes, you can get card advantage two ways:
1) You simply hugely outdraw your opponent. A double sprint rogue may actually be using 2 cards to kill 1 very frequently, but he might outdraw his opponent by 10+ cards, which means he can still have card advantage even with those low value plays.
2) You have high value cards that exhaust your opponents hand quickly.
Value can generate card advantage (or not, if your opponent has much stronger card draw than you do), but it is not card advantage itself.
Okay, so what would you call it when I have 6 cards in my hand and my opponent has 2?
"integrity"?
You are using a card in the game bro, not cheating. Pound for pound (so-to speak) Tirion is probably the best legendary in the game. Why don't you cut that one as well if you are worried about OP cards?
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Appreciate your efforts Opiate. Not as hopeless as trying to standardize the definitions of game genres at least =)
You are using a card in the game bro, not cheating. Pound for pound (so-to speak) Tirion is probably the best legendary in the game. Why don't you cut that one as well if you are worried about OP cards?
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Appreciate your efforts Opiate. Not as hopeless as trying to standardize the definitions of game genres at least =)
I want to emphasize again that I don't ultimately care what we call these concepts, as long as
1) We all agree on what to call them
2) We create enough words that different concepts and strategies have different words so that we can readily distinguish them.
If we want to call what I'm referring to as "value" as "farsimog" instead, and if we want to call highly aggressive reach cards like Wolf Rider "boorlum," I don't care, as long as we understand and distinguish these concepts and give them some label, whatever that label is.
1) We all agree on what to call them
2) We create enough words that different concepts and strategies have different words so that we can readily distinguish them.
If we want to call what I'm referring to as "value" as "farsimog" instead, and if we want to call highly aggressive reach cards like Wolf Rider "boorlum," I don't care, as long as we understand and distinguish these concepts and give them some label, whatever that label is.
Interfectum
Member
Yeah that "integrity" quip gave me a chuckle. I will win any way I can within the rules of the game.
Tempostorm vs Nihilium tourney on now, everyone cross your fingers for a Lothar vs Lifecoach match and Lothar is still cosplaying Lifecoach!
http://www.twitch.tv/amazhs
http://www.twitch.tv/amazhs
Similarly:
What would a card like this look like in Hearthstone? Maybe a 2 mana 1/2 that battlecry gained +1/+1 for each creature that died this turn?
I like using "tempo" because "tempo" is a cool word but when I say a card is "tempo", it might be more illustrative to say it's "fast".
Wolfrider is fast. Mind Blast is fast. Innervate is fast. Backstab is fast.
Arcane intellect is not fast. Doomhammer is not fast. Pyroblast is not fast.
Legendaries have different rankings of fast/not fast as well, even if they're extremely slow compared to Wolfrider.
Grommash is fast. Ragnaros is fast.
Ysera is not fast. Tirion is not fast.
Varian is somewhere between Grommash/Rag and Ysera/Tirion.
It's called Undertaker in Hearthstone.
Wolfrider is fast. Mind Blast is fast. Innervate is fast. Backstab is fast.
Arcane intellect is not fast. Doomhammer is not fast. Pyroblast is not fast.
Legendaries have different rankings of fast/not fast as well, even if they're extremely slow compared to Wolfrider.
Grommash is fast. Ragnaros is fast.
Ysera is not fast. Tirion is not fast.
Varian is somewhere between Grommash/Rag and Ysera/Tirion.
It's called Undertaker in Hearthstone.
HOW AM I FUCKING LOSING
And before anyone asks, no I don't have Dr. Boom because I want to at least win with integrity.
You may want to watch some of StrifeCro's streams with midrange pally play. He still sees some success with it in a meta that's pretty toxic to it, and the deck is one of his specialties(alongside handlock, and many varieties of mage).
So, some different concepts, without labels:
1) Number of cards in your hand vs. number of cards in opponents' hand. If I have more than my opponent, I call this _________
2) I have a stronger board presence and have initiative for attacks. I call this _______
3) I have cards which enable me to establish board presence early and maintain it. I call this ______
4) I have cards which frequently trade 2:1 with enemy cards and/or generate cards from thin air. I call this _______
5) I have a card which does nothing but draw 2 cards for me. I call this a _______ card
6) I have cards that do little to establish board presence or trade 2:1 for enemy cards, but do significant damage to the enemy champion. I call cards like this ________
1) Number of cards in your hand vs. number of cards in opponents' hand. If I have more than my opponent, I call this _________
2) I have a stronger board presence and have initiative for attacks. I call this _______
3) I have cards which enable me to establish board presence early and maintain it. I call this ______
4) I have cards which frequently trade 2:1 with enemy cards and/or generate cards from thin air. I call this _______
5) I have a card which does nothing but draw 2 cards for me. I call this a _______ card
6) I have cards that do little to establish board presence or trade 2:1 for enemy cards, but do significant damage to the enemy champion. I call cards like this ________
Is there a reason that lifecoach isn't playing this week? I did not know that teams could swap players out like this.
Yeah, I played seriously from Revised until Fallen Empires. After that I've played casually on-and-off, particularly from Odyssey block until Mirrodin block. So my terminology might be more of a local thing. (The Internet wasn't big yet when I was playing seriously. Ah, those pre-netdeck days.)
4 mana 2/2
Battle Cry: Gain +/1/+1 for each type of minion that died this game.
So you get +1 if its Dragon, Mech, Pirate, Beast, Murloc, Totem etc.
1) Card/Hand advantage
2) Board initiative
3) Tempo
4) A card that goes 2/1 AND generates cards from thin air is a very high value card. There isn't really a name for it, it's some form of "value" that is hard to define.
5) Card draw
6) Aggro/Burn card
And some cards are variants of each other. Like Varryn can gain you tempo AND gain you card draw.
What are you talking about? Nihilum is running Lifecoach, RDU and Thijs.
Lifecoach probably has other tourneys to play and the rules probably allow for it
Tarmagoyf gains its powers from dudes in the graveyard, right? So he's not a Turn 1 play like pre-nerf Undertaker was.
Yeah but tribes aren't as big in Hearthstone as in Magic, right? That card would be awful.
Personally.
I'm at a loss for 6, however. These cards fall under the label of "win-con", occasionally "bomb".
Well, no one plays turn 1 Goyf because there's way more important things to do on turn 1, but it's trivial in Magic to dump your hand into the graveyard. I can play something like 20 spells on Turn 3 using certain decks and this is how they win. For example, the old Reanimator could win on Turn 2.
Tarmo is still better. It needs to be a minion that gets the buffs whenever it is played and the buffs update in real time. But then again Tarmo is the most broken creature in magic
It's a combination of cards in hand, on board and in deck.
If you have 12 cards in deck and 3 cards in hand vs an opponent who has 16 cards left in the deck and 5 cards in hand (assuming both have equal board states)... then currently you are at a card disadvantage.
Well this certainly fails my "create different words for different concepts" requirement. I think there is a pretty big difference between arcane intellect and dr. boom, although both can be referred to as "card advantage" cards under you rubrick. In fact, you have 3 words total to describe all 6 of these!
Fixed1979
Member
Is Fordragon the only minion that has a similar effect right now (stat increase based on minions dying)? A low cost card based on creatures dying would be pretty painful in some instances...allow board clears with enough mana left over to still play it. (ie: Turn 6 Hellfire + 2 mana minion).
Tarmo is still better. It needs to be a minion that gets the buffs whenever it is played and the buffs update in real time. But then again Tarmo is the most broken creature in magic
Oh yeah, you totally can't get away with that in Hearthstone. Without common tribes you'd have to approach it more generally and then it would be like a Flesheating Ghoul that also gains health.
I have no problem referring to "I have more cards left in my deck" as "card advantage." Okay, cool.
What do you call "I have more cards in my hand than you do," then? Again, I don't care what the label is, as long as we come up with labels.
... Noxious and Kripp are likely to be the worst commentators currently active. Both of them don't play enough constructed and miss so many plays and can't make insightful comments on the actual game. Maybe having one of them around is fine for color commentary but you can't have both of them together because then you're missing a caster who's good at the game. Amaz is capable but he doesn't seem to have good experience in casting the matches.
Tempo isn't that important in hearthstone anyway because of mana progression being linear.
Tempo is extremely simple to understand. Arcane intellect is you exchanging mana for cards. That's value or card advantage or whatever. Tempo is the opposite, exchanging cards (or other resources) for mana advantage in the earlier turns, so things like innervate, theoretically overload cards, discard creatures and drawback creatures in general for warlock etc...
Tempo decks (which are aggro by nature) tend to use that virtual mana advantage to get a board down fast which means that your opponent card advantage don't matter because he will die before he can use all those extra cards.
For example, as fist of Jaraxxus become legal, i'll be able to play an extreme version of tempo warlock, with soulfires and discard creatures to get insane discounts on my cards in exchange for having less cards in general. Obviously, who care because warlock has a broken hero power.
But again, tempo is far less important in hearthstone because of how mana crystal works. An example of this is how innervate is nowhere as broken as it would be in magic, since it's essentially a 4x black lotus that give 2 instead of 3 (for those who don't know, it would probably be one of the top10 cards of all time, in a game with 15k+ cards). Instead, here innervate is more or less on the same level of wild growth, a card that in magic is garbage in eternal formats.
Tempo is extremely simple to understand. Arcane intellect is you exchanging mana for cards. That's value or card advantage or whatever. Tempo is the opposite, exchanging cards (or other resources) for mana advantage in the earlier turns, so things like innervate, theoretically overload cards, discard creatures and drawback creatures in general for warlock etc...
Tempo decks (which are aggro by nature) tend to use that virtual mana advantage to get a board down fast which means that your opponent card advantage don't matter because he will die before he can use all those extra cards.
For example, as fist of Jaraxxus become legal, i'll be able to play an extreme version of tempo warlock, with soulfires and discard creatures to get insane discounts on my cards in exchange for having less cards in general. Obviously, who care because warlock has a broken hero power.
But again, tempo is far less important in hearthstone because of how mana crystal works. An example of this is how innervate is nowhere as broken as it would be in magic, since it's essentially a 4x black lotus that give 2 instead of 3 (for those who don't know, it would probably be one of the top10 cards of all time, in a game with 15k+ cards). Instead, here innervate is more or less on the same level of wild growth, a card that in magic is garbage in eternal formats.
We can say that the Fatigue system puts a soft-cap on Card Advantage per game... but I wouldn't equate having a bigger deck with Card Advantage for the simple reason that having more cards in your deck doesn't help you win, until you're at the point where you're both at risk of fatigue (and it still doesn't necessarily help you win, winning by fatigue is an extreme fringe case in Hearthstone).
Tempo vs Card Advantage has to do with the historical tug-of-war between Aggro and Control.
The takeaway from this is that mana as a facet of tempo doesn't matter as much in Hearthstone compared to Magic, but I think tempo still exists.
Tempo vs Card Advantage has to do with the historical tug-of-war between Aggro and Control.
The takeaway from this is that mana as a facet of tempo doesn't matter as much in Hearthstone compared to Magic, but I think tempo still exists.
I like just calling them "aggro" cards, but "DD" cards works fine too.
As always, no card is exclusively one thing or another. Even ysera can be dropped one turn, then push her face and nightmare her for 9 damage the next turn. Wolf Rider can be played basically as a 3 mana dark bomb to maintain board advantage and keep your other minions alive.
But in general Ysera is far more likely to be used as a control/value card, and in general wolf rider is far more likely to be aggro/direct damage.
Phawx
Member
Yea, that works.
Probably hand-size advantage.
Phawx
Member
Your budget?
Edit: I guess it would have to be card budget as you do have a mana budget as well
A card is going to be good at one of 3 things at the basic level.
Card advantage, tempo or related to HP.
Some cards can get you multiple things.
Dr Balanced is a late game tempo card. It's the most efficient card at 7 mana and it's putting multiple bodies on the board. On the other end Minibot is an early game tempo card at 2 mana (efficient at 2 mana).
Healbot manipulates HP as do Taunt cards like Belcher. The opposite are of course cards like Arcane Golem which are used to reduce HP.
Then you have cards like Flame Imp or Zombie Chow. It's HP loss for increased tempo for its mana cost. Or a card like Succubus. It's increased tempo for card loss. Or Doom Guard which is even MORE card loss for EVEN MORE tempo.
Preparation and Innervate are the most extreme forms of tempo. You are actually giving up card advantage for tempo.
Ysera is a slight tempo loss for card advantage. The body is huge yes but it's a 9 mana minion. You have to compare it to other 9 mana minions. Ysera will usually go 1 for 1 against other 9 cost minions and sometimes will die for free against them. Hell Ysera dies for free against a Force Tank Max 1 on 1. You can't really say that Ysera goes 2 for 1 against two Fireballs because those 2 cards COMBINED are less than the cost of Ysera. So the Mage player is actually gaining tempo by killing Ysera with two Fireballs because they can do something like double Fireball, summon a Snowchugger and maintain board initiative and tempo.
Card advantage, tempo or related to HP.
Some cards can get you multiple things.
Dr Balanced is a late game tempo card. It's the most efficient card at 7 mana and it's putting multiple bodies on the board. On the other end Minibot is an early game tempo card at 2 mana (efficient at 2 mana).
Healbot manipulates HP as do Taunt cards like Belcher. The opposite are of course cards like Arcane Golem which are used to reduce HP.
Then you have cards like Flame Imp or Zombie Chow. It's HP loss for increased tempo for its mana cost. Or a card like Succubus. It's increased tempo for card loss. Or Doom Guard which is even MORE card loss for EVEN MORE tempo.
Preparation and Innervate are the most extreme forms of tempo. You are actually giving up card advantage for tempo.
Ysera is a slight tempo loss for card advantage. The body is huge yes but it's a 9 mana minion. You have to compare it to other 9 mana minions. Ysera will usually go 1 for 1 against other 9 cost minions and sometimes will die for free against them. Hell Ysera dies for free against a Force Tank Max 1 on 1. You can't really say that Ysera goes 2 for 1 against two Fireballs because those 2 cards COMBINED are less than the cost of Ysera. So the Mage player is actually gaining tempo by killing Ysera with two Fireballs because they can do something like double Fireball, summon a Snowchugger and maintain board initiative and tempo.
Professor Lich
Member
Hey Haly, I just want to make sure of something with that turn 2 kill you posted.
First the guy did a thing to get that late game monster out on the board. He then uses the a spell so it can attack right then, dealing and gaining 7. He then draws out 7 cards from that monster's ability which basically draws his entire deck to get that spell which allows additional attacks. I guess the biggest thing that sticks out to me is the spell allows you to cast it just by discarding cards instead of its full mana cost.
First the guy did a thing to get that late game monster out on the board. He then uses the a spell so it can attack right then, dealing and gaining 7. He then draws out 7 cards from that monster's ability which basically draws his entire deck to get that spell which allows additional attacks. I guess the biggest thing that sticks out to me is the spell allows you to cast it just by discarding cards instead of its full mana cost.
I mean, it's very simple to just call it deck advantage.
But the thing is, it's not a very valuable concept when it comes to evaluating cards. Gang Up generates extreme deck advantage, but who cares about that? It sucks. Is Nefarian better or worse than Chromaggus? Again, who cares? What's more important is how they play in practice than if they're giving you more cards from your deck or more cards from thin air. Recycle? Recycle gives your opponent "deck advantage". Is that why it's so bad? (it isn't)
Just like how mill/fatigue is a fringe deck, deck advantage is a fringe idea that isn't really necessary in the day-to-day of balance discussion.
Yes. In Magic there is a phase called the combat phase, which is when all your guys can attack. It's not like in Hearthstone where you can attack with a guy, play another guy, then attack with a third guy. Attacking happens "together".
But as with everything else, there are cards in Magic that let you circumvent this so he sets up a loop with attacking to gain life, sacrifice life to draw cards, then "pitching" those cards to play the card that gives another attack phase. This is very similar, though not quite the same, to Shadowstep-Leeroy of yore.
But the thing is, it's not a very valuable concept when it comes to evaluating cards. Gang Up generates extreme deck advantage, but who cares about that? It sucks. Is Nefarian better or worse than Chromaggus? Again, who cares? What's more important is how they play in practice than if they're giving you more cards from your deck or more cards from thin air. Recycle? Recycle gives your opponent "deck advantage". Is that why it's so bad? (it isn't)
Just like how mill/fatigue is a fringe deck, deck advantage is a fringe idea that isn't really necessary in the day-to-day of balance discussion.
Yes. In Magic there is a phase called the combat phase, which is when all your guys can attack. It's not like in Hearthstone where you can attack with a guy, play another guy, then attack with a third guy. Attacking happens "together".
But as with everything else, there are cards in Magic that let you circumvent this so he sets up a loop with attacking to gain life, sacrifice life to draw cards, then "pitching" those cards to play the card that gives another attack phase. This is very similar, though not quite the same, to Shadowstep-Leeroy of yore.
I consider card advantage to be a combination of hand/deck. However, cards in hand are far more valuable than cards in deck so there is some kind of weighting going on. And the weighting changes based on how close you are to fatigue.
If I have 5 cards in hand, 25 cards in deck and you have 4 cards in hand, 26 cards in deck then I have card advantage because 5/25 is 'better' than 4/26.
But if we both have 3 cards in hand while I have 3 cards in my deck while you have 2 cards left in your deck then I have card advantage.
But because the times where the cards in deck matters in relatively minor, it often gets simplified to just refer to cards in hand.
If I have 5 cards in hand, 25 cards in deck and you have 4 cards in hand, 26 cards in deck then I have card advantage because 5/25 is 'better' than 4/26.
But if we both have 3 cards in hand while I have 3 cards in my deck while you have 2 cards left in your deck then I have card advantage.
But because the times where the cards in deck matters in relatively minor, it often gets simplified to just refer to cards in hand.
I care very much about deck advantage. I would guess about 1/4 of my games go to fatigue. I play Mill Rogue, Heavy, Survivable control warrior, and control priest as 3 of my main decks. My Control Warrior can take face hunters to fatigue.
Phawx
Member
I don't think having more cards in your deck is an advantage. I think having more cards in your deck is a disadvantage.
Edit: constructed to me is a 30 card plan. I want as much of my plan either on the board or in my hand. If I am further along in my plan that my opponent, I have card advantage. Generally speaking of course, barring context of how the game is playing.
Yeah deck advantage is only relevant if games will go to fatigue.
In that case, Gang Up is the ULTIMATE deck advantage card.
It's negative card hand advantage, negative tempo and does not manipulate HP in anyway. On the turn it gets played, it's probably one of the worst plays in Hearthstone.
However, Gang Up becomes stronger and stronger as the game progresses towards fatigue and in a fatigue war it's the most powerful card in the game.
On the other hand, Thoughsteal generates both card AND deck advantage.
In that case, Gang Up is the ULTIMATE deck advantage card.
It's negative card hand advantage, negative tempo and does not manipulate HP in anyway. On the turn it gets played, it's probably one of the worst plays in Hearthstone.
However, Gang Up becomes stronger and stronger as the game progresses towards fatigue and in a fatigue war it's the most powerful card in the game.
On the other hand, Thoughsteal generates both card AND deck advantage.
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